22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

[Damage3245]

I wish all of this arguing hadn't taken pace while I was asleep, lol. I'll catch up on the thread as soon as I can.

 

[Damage3245]

Nah this is just idiotic. Roshi's max power is the Standard he is going to compare everyone to.

This is pure headcanon.

Responding to everything that's been said over the last eight hours is going to take a while but I have to point this out first. Never does he say anything about his full power being surpassed. Or that Goku can produce a stronger Kamehameha than him.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I'm tired of this "it's the same roshi it's just all his energy" bs

It shoots ki throughout his body and amps his muscles

It's the same thing as grade 3 SSJ

This didn't even counter the point all you did was just "fix" the names that we call them by

Because ssj 3 grade is that above normal state Saiyan isn't it?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

This is pure headcanon.

Responding to everything that's been said over the last eight hours is going to take a while but I have to point this out first. Never does he say anything about his full power being surpassed. Or that Goku can produce a stronger Kamehameha than him.

He said goku has surpassed him. Korin said he far surpassed Roshi. Saying he didn't surpass his full power is just wrong. Everything points to everyone surpassing him after the RR army Saga. That's where Roshi ceased to be the peak of the verse and why piccolo was introduced because Roshi was irrelevant after that and everyone else needed to step up his game.

The only reason you could say Roshi stating everyone had surpassed him doesn't imply that they surpassed his full power would be if he had a form like Zarbon, frieza or the Saiyans.

 

[KingTempest]

Because ssj 3 grade is that above normal state Saiyan isn't it?

And "Full Power" is above his regular self

It's like the difference between Frieza's regular self and his 100% Full Power busky self

 

[RedReaper616]

I'm tired of this "it's the same roshi it's just all his energy" bs

It shoots ki throughout his body and amps his muscles

It's the same thing as grade 3 SSJ

This didn't even counter the point all you did was just "fix" the names that we call them by

No. You stating this demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the principles at play, as Roshi is doing the EXACT OPPOSITE THING.

The Grade 2 and 3 forms the Saiyans use is utilized to artificially increase their stats via muscle mass without actually increasing spiritual/energy. Instead it is SOLELY a funneling and expanding of the physical form to grant them strength they do not have. This is why Goku and Gohan elected to train their standard Super Saiyan forms, as it would bring greater power to train one’s spirit/Ki and the form’s cost on it rather than trying to solely amplify the raw physical capabilities of your body.

Roshi ALREADY HAS the Ki to actually dish out the damage he is dealing out. He HAS THE STRENGTH, but his standard ELDERLY BODY cannot HANDLE it, forcing him to then circumvent this via increasing his body physically to compensate for his inability.

Essentially, Grades = Extremely Pushed Higher Physicals to Compensate for Low Ki Strength

Roshi = Low Physicals pushed to “Higher Physicals” to withstand High Ki Strength.

They are two totally opposing mindsets. The best non Dragon Ball example I can give to compare the two is All Might and Deku. Whilst both can use OFA to amplify their strengths, All Might must use a physical enhancement form to channel his Quirk. It’s not that he’s suddenly Quirkless when he’s Mini-Might. It’s that his body LITERALLY can’t handle his own power and thus naturally manifested itself VIA the ONLY WAY HE CAN without suiciding. Regardless of his percentage.

Conversely, Deku can use virtually any amount of power without drawback as long as he can control and use the power properly without requiring his body to buff up in any way, shape, or form. (Obviously Deku can’t truly use his 100% without impunity, but it is the best feasible example.)

 

[Damage3245]

No. You stating this demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the principles at play, as Roshi is doing the EXACT OPPOSITE THING.

The Grade 2 and 3 forms the Saiyans use is utilized to artificially increase their stats via muscle mass without actually increasing spiritual/energy. Instead it is SOLELY a funneling and expanding of the physical form to grant them strength they do not have. This is why Goku and Gohan elected to train their standard Super Saiyan forms, as it would bring greater power to train one’s spirit/Ki and the form’s cost on it rather than trying to solely amplify the raw physical capabilities of your body

Roshi ALREADY HAS the Ki to actually dish out the damage he is dealing out. He HAS THE STRENGTH, but his standard ELDERLY BODY cannot HANDLE it, forcing him to then circumvent this via increasing his body physically to compensate for his inability.

Essentially, Grades = Extremely Pushed Higher Physicals to Compensate for Low Ki Strength

Roshi = Low Physicals pushed to “Higher Physicals” to withstand High Ki Strength.

They are two totally opposing mindsets. The best non Dragon Balk example I can give to compare the two is All Might and Deku. Whilst both can use OFA to amplify their strengths, All Might must use a physical enhancement form to channel his Quirk. It’s not that he’s suddenly Quirkless when he’s Mini-Might. It’s that his body LITERALLY can’t handle his own power and thus naturally manifested itself VIA the ONLY WAY HE CAN without suiciding. Regardless of his percentage.

Conversely, Deku can use virtually any amount of power without drawback as long as he can control and use the power properly without requiring his body to buff up in any way, shape, or form. (Obviously Deku can’t truly use his 100% without impunity, but it is the best feasible example.)

Everything you said there can be right, but the point is still wrong.

Max Power Roshi is still stronger than normal Roshi, aka the version of Roshi that isn't using his Max Power. There is no difference in the end result whether you're saying "It's his Ki that he had all along" or "He's pushing his Ki to a new level."

Either way Max Power ends up being stronger than Roshi without it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

And "Full Power" is above his regular self

It's like the difference between Frieza's regular self and his 100% Full Power busky self

Yeah thank you that's what it is. Are you suggesting 100% Frieza is million of times stronger than final form frieza after he transformed? That's what is being argued for Roshi and Tien who fought him. A Roshi that again trained to catch up to them as everything points to the fact that his power whatever you wanna call it was insufficient. Anyways can't reply for the next few hours and honestly kind of tired repeating myself. Everything has been said now let the staff decide.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah thank you that's what it is. Are you suggesting 100% Frieza is million of times stronger than final form frieza after he transformed? That's what is being argued for Roshi and Tien who fought him. A Roshi that again trained to catch up to them as everything points to the fact that his power whatever you wanna call it was insufficient. Anyways can't reply for the next few hours and honestly kind of tired repeating myself. Everything has been said now let the staff decide.

Stop focusing on the specific numbers involved here. We don't care if there's a million times difference or not because with shitty writing, it could be a million or a billion.

We're just pointing out there is a difference between the two forms.

This is the same stupid series where Frieza did a few months of training to get billions of times stronger.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Everything you said there can be right, but the point is still wrong.

Max Power Roshi is still stronger than normal Roshi, aka the version of Roshi that isn't using his Max Power. There is no difference in the end result whether you're saying "It's his Ki that he had all along" or "He's pushing his Ki to a new level."

Either way Max Power ends up being stronger than Roshi without it.

I don't think everyone denies what you are saying. Of courses a Roshi that isn't using all of his ki would be stronger than one who doesn't. But also noone else uses all his ki. Tien using roughly the same percent as Roshi was even to slightly above him. Thus his Kikoho seeing as it's a better technique than kamehameha as far as power goes would be above 22nd Budokai MP kamehameha which would be above 21nd Budokai MP kamehameha due to Roshi training.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah thank you that's what it is. Are you suggesting 100% Frieza is million of times stronger than final form frieza after he transformed? That's what is being argued for Roshi and Tien who fought him. A Roshi that again trained to catch up to them as everything points to the fact that his power whatever you wanna call it was insufficient.

I'm not talking about the gap between Frieza's forms, I'm talking about the mechanics of it and why/how it's similar to Roshi's.

How the wiki works is that you scale to feats based on valid reasoning, not just "I don't think it should be that much" with no supports.
Roshi trained to catch up to people he was equal to? That doesn't even make logical sense.

There was never a point in time where they were stated to have surpassed his max form's amped Kamehameha, the only thing at that point in time that's even close to moon level

Anyways can't reply for the next few hours and honestly kind of tired repeating myself. Everything has been said now let the staff decide.

You forgot that I'm staff, and I'm voicing my decision

I don't think everyone denies what you are saying. Of courses a Roshi that isn't using all of his ki would be stronger than one who doesn't. But also noone else uses all his ki. Tien using roughly the same percent as Roshi was even to slightly above him. Thus his Kikoho seeing as it's a better technique than kamehameha as far as power goes would be above 22nd Budokai MP kamehameha which would be above 21nd Budokai MP kamehameha due to Roshi training.

 

[RedReaper616]

Everything you said there can be right, but the point is still wrong.

Max Power Roshi is still stronger than normal Roshi, aka the version of Roshi that isn't using his Max Power. There is no difference in the end result whether you're saying "It's his Ki that he had all along" or "He's pushing his Ki to a new level."

Either way Max Power ends up being stronger than Roshi without it.

Yes, there is.

If you were to agree it was correct, then he thus is simply comparing to Ki to himself, the Ki he constantly has regardless of his physical form, then it means with one hundred percent certainty he refers to his actual power.

Because as established in my post, Roshi’s “Max Power” Ki is something he has full access to at all times, even in his base form, it just is not suitable to using that overwhelming power due to his old age.

Also, if I wanted to go crazy on ya, we could just use the ultimate move of battleboarding…

The Sketchy AI Translation of the Sketchy Guide Statements that support my argument. Specifically from El Manga Legendario, which I’m certain has been sourced before as supporting/secondary evidence, and can be used the same here.

 

[KingTempest]

If that shit ain't from Japanese to English I don't wanna see it

 

[Damage3245]

Yes, there is.

If you were to agree it was correct, then he thus is simply comparing to Ki to himself, the Ki he constantly has regardless of his physical form, then it means with one hundred percent certainty he refers to his actual power.

Because as established in my post, Roshi’s “Max Power” Ki is something he has full access to at all times, even in his base form, it just is not suitable to using that overwhelming power due to his old age.

Having full access to it at any time doesn't mean he is comparing themselves to it. Where is the proof of that?

Full power Tien can't even beat normal Roshi with a surprise attack with his full strength. I have zero reason to believe that anyone - including Roshi - believes that Tien surpasses his Max Power.

 

[RedReaper616]

Having full access to it at any time doesn't mean he is comparing themselves to it. Where is the proof of that?

Full power Tien can't even beat normal Roshi with a surprise attack with his full strength. I have zero reason to believe that anyone - including Roshi - believes that Tien surpasses his Max Power.

If he has full access to his Ki at any time, then he is literally just comparing Tien’s spirit to his own. Similar to Gohan comparing Goku to himself, and due to his own doubts was inflating Goku’s strength in comparison to himself in his own head by thinking his father was lying. In this instance, as the fighters distinctly are capable of using weaker showings to deduce higher levels of power, this is the precise opposite.

Also, that’s being blatantly disingenuous. Tien only went “full power” on the head attack he did. When Roshi got up, Tien kicked him and Roshi OUTRIGHT STATES Tien is “not as peppy as before. Did I touch a nerve?” With Roshi taking less damage than before.

Tien literally wasn’t going all out because his confidence was ****** off by Roshi tanking a blow he thought would’ve laid out the man (by comparing Roshi to his OWN Master, the Crane School Hermit). To then REGAIN his confidence and to attempt to strike fear into Roshi, Tien then fired “a basic Kamehameha Wave.”

This literally connects to the idea of “Genki” (or one’s own application of self via self perception, which is altered via cheering or being maliciously attacked on a character level) being able to nerf and buff you in Dragon Ball according to Toriyama (though admittedly this was stated many, MANY years later.)

 

[Damage3245]

If he has full access to his Ki at any time, then he is literally just comparing Tien’s spirit to his own. Similar to Gohan comparing Goku to himself, and due to his own doubts was inflating Goku’s strength in comparison to himself in his own head by thinking his father was lying. In this instance, as the fighters distinctly are capable of using weaker showings to deduce higher levels of power, this is the precise opposite.

But he doesn't fight with full access to his Ki at any point in Dragon Ball. He only uses it briefly for one-hit kill moves like the Max Power Kamehameha.

So if Max Power doesn't represent him as a fighter, then other characters "surpassing" him does not refer to his Max Power form.

Also, that’s being blatantly disingenuous.

I am being entirely genuine. Your points about Tien being "Not as perky" aren't relevant to the point I made above, and since when did not being perky mean that he's many times weaker than before?

 

[KingTempest]

Krillin can hurt Nappa
He has a lower power level than Tien and Piccolo
Now they're superior of everything he can do
So they can hurt Nappa
(Newsflash, they can't hurt Nappa)

This is how you sound right now Reaper

 

[RedReaper616]

But he doesn't fight with full access to his Ki at any point in Dragon Ball. He only uses it briefly for one-hit kill moves like the Max Power Kamehameha.

So if Max Power doesn't represent him as a fighter, then other characters "surpassing" him does not refer to his Max Power form.

I don’t know how many times I have to restate this basic concept, but I’ll restate it as many times until you understand it.

Base Roshi = His Ki is 10, but can only use 5 safely.

Max Roshi = His Ki is 10.

Thus, regardless, as he is comparing the Ki of others to his own raw Ki, he would still be comparing it to the “10” value.

I am being entirely genuine. Your points about Tien being "Not as perky" aren't relevant to the point I made above, and since when did not being perky mean that he's many times weaker than before?

…
Tien went from “nearly immediately knocked Roshi out with a single blow” to “almost entirely did not phase Roshi.”

Explain how that is inherently not a massive decrease in capacity. I need 5 pages, Times New Roman, font size 12, double spaced. Because no other conclusion is physically possible, Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

…
Tien went from “nearly immediately knocked Roshi out with a single blow” to “almost entirely did not phase Roshi.”

Explain how that is inherently not a massive decrease in capacity. I need 5 pages, Times New Roman, font size 12, double spaced. Because no other conclusion is physically possible, Damage.

The single blow was a surprise attack while Roshi was off-guard/blinded.

Of course it's going to appear more impressive than when Roshi is actually fighting and matching him.

It's not a decrease in a Tien's capacity. It's a difference of circumstances for Roshi.

I don’t know how many times I have to restate this basic concept, but I’ll restate it as many times until you understand it.

Base Roshi = His Ki is 10, but can only use 5 safely.

Max Roshi = His Ki is 10.

Thus, regardless, as he is comparing the Ki of others to his own raw Ki, he would still be comparing it to the “10” value.

I don't see any evidence hs is comparing them to the 10 value here. Only an assumption that he is.

 

[KingTempest]

I don’t know how many times I have to restate this basic concept, but I’ll restate it as many times until you understand it.

Base Roshi = His Ki is 10, but can only use 5 safely.

Max Roshi = His Ki is 10.

Thus, regardless, as he is comparing the Ki of others to his own raw Ki, he would still be comparing it to the “10” value.

So if somebody's stronger than tien they're by default stronger than his tri-beam because that's energy he can still produce?

 

[RedReaper616]

Krillin can hurt Nappa
He has a lower power level than Tien and Piccolo
Now they're superior of everything he can do
So they can hurt Nappa
(Newsflash, they can't hurt Nappa)

This is how you sound right now Reaper

No. Roshi literally is out for more than a few seconds due to Tien’s “minute of full power.” This is then followed by Tien not being able to get through Roshi and landing a blow that does minimal damage and Roshi DIRECTLY COMMENTING on this phenomenon. It’s not some dumb circular scaling loop. It’s literally Roshi nearly being knocked out Vs Roshi fighting much better due to him trying to convert Tienshinhan from his ways of ill-intent.

The single blow was a surprise attack while Roshi was off-guard/blinded.

Of course it's going to appear more impressive than when Roshi is actually fighting and matching him.

It's not a decrease in a Tien's capacity. It's a difference of circumstances for Roshi.

I’m sorry, what? You mean the Roshi that was given forewarning on Tien going all out? The same Roshi that was stanced up, ready for attack? In the series where having your guard up gives you a constant heightened state of durability all around your body? THAT Roshi? Yeah, no. Roshi was prepared for an attack, otherwise the blow would’ve did as Tien said and basically killed him. Or just killed him outright.

I don't see any evidence hs is comparing them to the 10 value here. Only an assumption that he is.

It’s an inherent requirement. If he’s comparing it to his Raw Ki that remains unchanged between forms, then no matter what he’s comparing it to his Max Power, as it is solely the power he already has and yet cannot use.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So if somebody's stronger than tien they're by default stronger than his tri-beam because that's energy he can still produce?

Just wanted to say that actually yes that's the case. That's how Dragonball works. It's all a Matter of ki and attacks are just fancy fireworks to show it's quantity. Now kikoho is not exactly the same because it can be fueled by life force thus raising it's power beyond what the person's ki would suggest but if it's fired using only ki then your sentence is correct.

 

[Damage3245]

I’m sorry, what? You mean the Roshi that was given forewarning on Tien going all out? The same Roshi that was stanced up, ready for attack? In the series where having your guard up gives you a constant heightened state of durability all around your body? THAT Roshi? Yeah, no. Roshi was prepared for an attack, otherwise the blow would’ve did as Tien said and basically killed him. Or just killed him outright.

He was blinded. His guard wasn't up. Otherwise what was the point of Tien blinding him in the first place?

 

[KingTempest]

No. Roshi literally is out for more than a few seconds due to Tien’s “minute of full power.” This is then followed by Tien not being able to get through Roshi and landing a blow that does minimal damage and Roshi DIRECTLY COMMENTING on this phenomenon. It’s not some dumb circular scaling loop. It’s literally Roshi nearly being knocked out Vs Roshi fighting much better due to him trying to convert Tienshinhan from his ways of ill-intent.

You didn't even answer the question you just brought up an entirely unrelated incident

He was out for a decent amount of time due to getting head damage while off guard and blind

Like what

Powerscalers need to get into more fights irl. Getting hit in the back of your head is an easy way to be put to the ground, especially when off guard

Just wanted to say that actually yes that's the case. That's how Dragonball works. It's all a Matter of ki and attacks are just fancy fireworks to show it's quantity. Now kikoho is not exactly the same because it can be fueled by life force thus raising it's power beyond what the person's ki would suggest but if it's fired using only ki then your sentence is correct.

He didn't use his life force to hurt nappa
Tien's tri beam couldn't hurt Nappa
So what's going on

 

[RedReaper616]

He was blinded. His guard wasn't up. Otherwise what was the point of Tien blinding him in the first place?

How does this translate to him lowering his Ki, and thus durability? Again, if Roshi actually did this, as seen in DBS, Roshi would have SIMPLY and UTTERLY died by having VASTLY LOWER/HUMAN durability compared to Tien’s AP.

Roshi’s Ki improved durability is definitely active here, and there is no reason to assume it isn’t. Especially when you consider I literally linked Roshi getting back up afterwards.

 

[Damage3245]

How does this translate to him lowering his Ki, and thus durability? Again, if Roshi actually did this, as seen in DBS, Roshi would have SIMPLY and UTTERLY died by having VASTLY LOWER/HUMAN durability compared to Tien’s AP.

Roshi’s Ki improved durability is definitely active here, and there is no reason to assume it isn’t. Especially when you consider I literally linked Roshi getting back up afterwards.

And tell me, what level is that durability?

 

[RedReaper616]

You didn't even answer the question you just brought up an entirely unrelated incident

Did…did you read what I even replied to?

He was out for a decent amount of time due to getting head damage while off guard and blind

This is the series where, as long as your Ki is up, your entire body, including your clothes, is equally as defended as the rest of yourself. Simply cheapshotting someone by punching them in the back while their Aura/Durability Amp is up will do utterly nothing to that fighter if their durability is substantially higher to your AP, regardless of factors like Blindness. This is why characters use it as a cheap run away tactic. Krillin PHYSICALLY cannot kill Frieza Soldier #5 due to their enhanced durability, regardless of how he has affected their sight.

Like what

Powerscalers need to get into more fights irl. Getting hit in the back of your head is an easy way to be put to the ground, especially when off guard

This has nothing to do with the rules of Dragon Ball.

He didn't use his life force to hurt nappa
Tien's tri beam couldn't hurt Nappa
So what's going on

Tien did use his Life Force to power up the Neo Tri Beam and Nappa’s vastly superior durability allowed him to walk it off, though was temporarily constrained by its “localized **** you beam” effects.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

You didn't even answer the question you just brought up an entirely unrelated incident

He was out for a decent amount of time due to getting head damage while off guard and blind

Like what

Powerscalers need to get into more fights irl. Getting hit in the back of your head is an easy way to be put to the ground, especially when off guard

He didn't use his life force to hurt nappa
Tien's tri beam couldn't hurt Nappa
So what's going on

Not sure what you are trying so say. Tien used his life force there. He commented that he will meet his friend soon and literally died after firing it. That's the only reason he could even do the damage he did.

 

[RedReaper616]

And tell me, what level is that durability?

Given that Ki is literally how he amplified his durability, Roshi’s durability without Ki would/should be Human Level, like the other advanced normal martial artists in the series we see in the preliminaries of all 3 Budokai Tenkaichi’s.

If you refer to Roshi’s Ki Enhanced durability, it’s irrelevant to the discussion. The argument is whether or not Tienshinhan and (Kid) Son Goku could replicate the AP of Max Power Roshi from the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi with their Tri-Beam/Kamehameha, not their bare hands.

And it’s very clearly stated, implied, and supported by guides, the narrative, and the characters themselves this is the case.

 

[KingTempest]

Did…did you read what I even replied to?

You didn't read what I asked you
I brought up the Krillin Tien Nappa scenario and you jumped to Roshi getting hit in his head and being brought unconscious

This is the series where, as long as your Ki is up, your entire body, including your clothes, is equally as defended as the rest of yourself.

So ppl who destroy Nappa's clothes are equal to those who destroy his body.

Simply cheapshotting someone by punching them in the back while their Aura/Durability Amp is up will do utterly nothing to that fighter if their durability is substantially higher to your AP, regardless of factors like Blindness. This is why characters use it as a cheap run away tactic. Krillin PHYSICALLY cannot kill Frieza Soldier #5 due to their enhanced durability, regardless of how he has affected their sight.

Not everything is AP and dura,

This has nothing to do with the rules of Dragon Ball.

It has everything to do with the rules of ******* combat.
Rules of fighting outside of AP and Dura exist. You can knock somebody stronger than you in the back of their heads and knock them out due to the slight brain trauma dealt.

Tien did use his Life Force to power up the Neo Tri Beam and Nappa’s vastly superior durability allowed him to walk it off, though was temporarily constrained by its “localized **** you beam” effects.

I didn't ask about Tien's Neo Tri Beam, nor did I ask about Tien's life force

Nappa (4,000) > Tien (1,830) > Krillin (1,770)
Krillin's Regular Destructo Disc > Nappa's Dura > Tien's Tri Beam >>>>> Tien's Regular AP > Krillin's AP
Shouldn't Tien's Tri Beam be superior to Krillin's Destructo Disc?

Not sure what you are trying so say. Tien used his life force there. He commented that he will meet his friend soon and literally died after firing it. That's the only reason he could even do the damage he did.

He didn't do any damage to Nappa at all

 

[RedReaper616]

You didn't read what I asked you
I brought up the Krillin Tien Nappa scenario and you jumped to Roshi getting hit in his head and being brought unconscious

That’s an entirely separate post, and not a question, You’re jumping the gun here, not me. And regardless, yes. Goku from the Namek Saga would still be stronger than Tien even with the Tri-Beam. That shouldn’t be in question. Further, Krillin, Tien, and Nappa are all operating entirely differently. It’s almost like you forgot the point was to show how martial arts skills/techniques created by humanity (nurture) allows one to overcome the raw power and talent of those vastly above you (nature, the Saiyans), and that one who finds balance between those two would eventually reach a stronger self (Son Goku).

This is reflected in their Techniques, which allow them to fight at a heavier weight class than they actually are via their technique’s properties. Tien, by spending his life force in a way Nappa could not understand at a fundamental level, was able to stall Nappa in ways fighters explicitly stronger than him, (Piccolo), could not. He did not incredibly damage Nappa, or even really damage him at all. Just like Cell, he merely halted his movements. Nappa’s durability was still superior.

Krillin’s Kienzan operates entirely without impunity at this point in the story, able to harm characters vastly superior to Krillin. Such as 2nd Form Frieza. Krillin’s power has nothing to do with it. It is simply the technique’s properties.

So ppl who destroy Nappa's clothes are equal to those who destroy his body.

No. Nappa literally was fighting with arrogance and sandbagging, and likely believed his armor would tank it like it tanked Chaiotzu’s Self-Destruct. If you recall, he was literally playing while waiting for Goku to arrive.

Not everything is AP and dura,

It has everything to do with the rules of ******* combat.
Rules of fighting outside of AP and Dura exist. You can knock somebody stronger than you in the back of their heads and knock them out due to the slight brain trauma dealt.

Sure. In IRL. This doesn’t apply to Dragon Ball. This is instead reflected in their Ki. If they are “on guard” in the way we describe, their Ki is up and the defense remains the same across the entire body. If they are not, their body simply is equally undefended across the entire body. That simple. So in order for you and Damage’s argument to work, Roshi would’ve had to explode into bloody chunks.

I didn't ask about Tien's Neo Tri Beam, nor did I ask about Tien's life force

You quite literally stated Tien did not use his life force, when that is objectively wrong. That’s on you.

 

[Damage3245]

If you refer to Roshi’s Ki Enhanced durability, it’s irrelevant to the discussion. The argument is whether or not Tienshinhan and (Kid) Son Goku could replicate the AP of Max Power Roshi from the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi with their Tri-Beam/Kamehameha, not their bare hands.

And it’s very clearly stated, implied, and supported by guides, the narrative, and the characters themselves this is the case.

I just want to know. What do you think Roshi's Ki Enhanced durability is?

 

[KingTempest]

That’s an entirely separate post, and not a question, You’re jumping the gun here, not me. And regardless, yes. Goku from the Namek Saga would still be stronger than Tien even with the Tri-Beam.

Did I ask about Goku at all? No.
You have a reading problem. You keep implementing shit nobody is talking about.

That shouldn’t be in question. Further, Krillin, Tien, and Nappa are all operating entirely differently. It’s almost like you forgot the point was to show how martial arts skills/techniques created by humanity (nurture) allows one to overcome the raw power and talent of those vastly above you (nature, the Saiyans), and that one who finds balance between those two would eventually reach a stronger self (Son Goku).

This is reflected in their Techniques, which allow them to fight at a heavier weight class than they actually are via their technique’s properties. Tien, by spending his life force in a way Nappa could not understand at a fundamental level, was able to stall Nappa in ways fighters explicitly stronger than him, (Piccolo), could not. He did not incredibly damage Nappa, or even really damage him at all. Just like Cell, he merely halted his movements. Nappa’s durability was still superior.

Krillin’s Kienzan operates entirely without impunity at this point in the story, able to harm characters vastly superior to Krillin. Such as 2nd Form Frieza. Krillin’s power has nothing to do with it. It is simply the technique’s properties.

Oh... so there can be attacks they have that can harm people far stronger that others wouldn't scale to?
So why would that work for the Kamehameha, or maybe the max power Kamehameha

No. Nappa literally was fighting with arrogance and sandbagging, and likely believed his armor would tank it like it tanked Chaiotzu’s Self-Destruct. If you recall, he was literally playing while waiting for Goku to arrive.

But there's many instances where peoples' clothes get destroyed and their skin is fine... so what does this mean?

Sure. In IRL. This doesn’t apply to Dragon Ball. This is instead reflected in their Ki. If they are “on guard” in the way we describe, their Ki is up and the defense remains the same across the entire body. If they are not, their body simply is equally undefended across the entire body. That simple. So in order for you and Damage’s argument to work, Roshi would’ve had to explode into bloody chunks.

Roshi wouldn't have had to explode into anything
This applies to Dragon Ball. Nobody is talking about defensive measures, these are basic laws of fighting
Just like how getting punched in your stomach can make you spit up/throw up, getting hit in your head can discombobulate you
Just like how potent light flashing in your eyes can temporarily blind you
Just like how getting swept can make you fall

Ki doesn't stop headaches

You quite literally stated Tien did not use his life force, when that is objectively wrong. That’s on you.

I never said Tien didn't use his life force at all, I said Krillin didn't, because I was talking about the person who hurt Nappa, Krillin
Read

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Oh... so there can be attacks they have that can harm people far stronger that others wouldn't scale to?
So why would that work for the Kamehameha, or maybe the max power Kamehameha

If you are comparing Kamehameha because that's what you are comparing as MP Kamehameha is really a simple Kamehameha like everyone does I have to ask. Do you have any idea about Dragonball? I don't think you do if you are comparing the two moves. Kienzan being the single most busted move beside hax like kid buu's chocolate beam. Nothing that applies to kienzan applies to anything else beyond maybe Frieza's pizza cutters. Kamehameha is a very simple move. The thing roshi did is also a Kamehameha nothing more or less. It's the same move Goku did, Tien did, Yamcha did, Krillin did and so on.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

I just want to know. What do you think Roshi's Ki Enhanced durability is?

By Enhancing their own ki, their physical stats increases in this case the durability. Vegeta in order to defeat freeza ask's krillin to inflict damage to him to the point he would be on the brick of death, but krillin says with the power he has, he cannot hurt Vegeta. Vegeta says he will lower his power so that krillin would be able to harm him. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. So the answer would be if he amps himself to his full power, his durability would be at that level or 5-C. As they should atleast be able to tank what they can dish out.

Oh... so there can be attacks they have that can harm people far stronger that others wouldn't scale to?
So why would that work for the Kamehameha, or maybe the max power Kamehameha

That is what attack potency is used for in this wiki. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction. Thus it should scale in their AP if it applies.

 

[Damage3245]

@LephyrTheRevanchist There's been a lot more discussion going on here, but I'll try to summarize all of my points in a single post for convenience later today.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LephyrTheRevanchist There's been a lot more discussion going on here, but I'll try to summarize all of my points in a single post for convenience later today.

I'm well aware.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm well aware.

Yes, I know you're aware that there's been more discussion since you're following the thread.... I was just updating you to let you know I'd be making a summary.

 

[Chariot190]

WHAT THE ****

Did none of you not read the damn argument at all?

They say that the tri beam has more DC and AP than the kamehameha

The DC of the Tri-Beam was enough to destroy an arena
The DC of the average Kamehameha barely breaks through walls and makes tiny explosions
The DC of the strongest kamehameha is enough to boom the moon

Him saying the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam is superior to the Kamehameha is referencing the average Kamehameha and not the full power one
The DC of the technique is supporting the fact that him saying "the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam > the Kamehameha" does not mean "the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam > the STRONGEST kamehameha", but "the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam > the average Kamehamehas we've seen throughout the series"

None of you guys are reading the ******* argument and it's actually really annoying
What the hell is so hard to understand about "him saying the AP and DC of this technique is superior to the Kamehameha, but showing to be superior to the average but inferior to the strongest one, means it's stronger than the average one and weaker than the strongest"

Yes but that simply isn't how it actually works. The Tribeam is a focused attack despite the implications of what Roshi says, it has been portrayed as such in every, single, usage of the move. It simply hits what is in its "scope", even by the time they're like 4-C it's still depicted as entirely focused.
Plus, to be fair, being more destructive doesn't inherently mean having more AOE. If the Kamehameha hit a wall and blew it to bits, and the Tribeam hit a wall and disintegrated it or whatever, I'd personally say that falls under being more destructive. Think of it like comparing a mortar to a particle beam.

I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion 5-C Tien is a tad suspect ngl but AOE as an argument for a move that lives on being hyper-focused seems a bit odd.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

If that shit ain't from Japanese to English I don't wanna see it

El Manga Legendario is a spanish guide, and is currently acceptable, there is not released Japanese version, it's made for Spain.

The scan does say that the Kikoho is the most lethal and powerful technique the show has ever seen by that point. 5-C Kikoho is undeniable.