Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Since @Damage3245 decided to close his own thread abruptly, and how no one even managed to address my arguments here during the whole thread, I am making this one to highlight these points and again argue for 5-C 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi characters. This will make it more difficult for anyone to ignore these points.

"Possibly" 5-C?​

So, last thread brought up the fact that Tien's Kikoho being stated as "More powerful than the Kamehameha" might not include the MAX Kamehameha.

Counter point, this scan exists:

"En aquel momento pasó a ser la técnica letal más poderosa que se había visto en Dragon Ball, y Goku no tuvo otra opción que esquivarla volando. Dicho sea de paso, en la edición anterior se habían destruido la caseta del lugar del torneo y la Luna, y en ésta el ring"

""At that moment it became the most powerful lethal technique that had been seen in Dragon Ball, and Goku had no choice but to dodge it by flying. By the way, in the previous edition they had destroyed the booth at the tournament venue and the Moon, and in this the ring"

Credits: ChronoUTL.


This was brought up in the earlier thread and made Damage concede to a possibly

This is not allowed. This is a direct confirmation that the Kikoho is stronger than Roshi's MAX Kamehameha. It's not vague. It's not non-definitive.

"Possibly

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly." - Attack Potency Page

None of this applies to the current situation. The evidence is definitive, and is supported by the source material, where Roshi states it's many times more powerful than the Kamehameha!
There also isn't an equal or sufficient counter argument on the opposition.

There is no tangable reason to discard this definitive evidence as just possibly

I'm asking for a full rating, this is undeniable given the arguments presented

5-C Physicals​

I'm simply going to repeat the argument I put up on the downgrade thread to disagree, as, shocker, it wasn't addressed at any point.

​

I'd like to point out that Tien was never going at full power against Roshi until the very end where he basically dominated the entire fight, Roshi never managed to even hurt him in any way once during their battle.

So @KingTempest's comments about Tien struggling against Base Roshi are just contradicted by the source material!
Roshi maybe got one or two hits in by having better experience, and Tien holding back significantly since he didn't even know Roshi would be that strong, Roshi doesn't land a single hit after Tien goes full power.

Considering this, it's incredibly weird to consider that the line where Roshi says he would probably lose is refering to his base form, it makes no sense! Roshi didn't stand a chance in base against a full power Tien, the correct statement would be that he would definitely lose had the battle kept going, Tien even says as much based on Roshi's performance, the only thing that could even give Roshi a slight chance at victory would be his Max Power form. Tien should scale to MAX Power Roshi regardless.

Roshi basically admits that he wouldn't been able to defeat Tien, verbatim. Saying he could have done it had he gone all out is just ignoring the line entirely.



EDIT
Why should Roshi scale to his MAX POWER Kamehameha.

1. It's a regular Kamehameha. As explained by the Daizenshuu, MAX Power Kamehameha is simply a move used by MAX Power Roshi because of his muscles to withstand the energy emitted. It's inferior to Super Kamehameha.
2. Super Kamehameha users are not 10 million times weaker than their own ki blasts. Goku's Kamehameha was slightly weaker than Raditz, yet Goku could tank some attacks from Raditz. They are not worlds apart in any way.

Another example:

This is an example where one's physicals can tank a Super Kamehameha, which is a better version of the regular Kamehameha. Piccolo has the exact same power level of Goku, however.

MAX Power Roshi with his inferior Kamehameha should scale to his own blast. Literally everyone does.

MAX Power Kamehameha is a regular Kamehameha used by someone in the MAX Power form, as the Daizenshuu explained.

Super Kamehameha is an extra-strength version of the regular Kamehameha

EDIT: More evidence that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha used by a character at max power!

1. During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
   • Super Kamehameha, however, is listed as a stronger version of the Kamehameha, it includes the one used as 21st Budokai that shattered the moon since it was all bundled up in the same category
2. Dragon Ball: Bouken Special cites the Kamehameha that destroyed the moon as a normal Kamehameha. Translation.
3. Daizenshuu again cites the moon busting Kamehameha as just a Kamehameha.
4. El Manga Legendario, the "spanish guide I love" also lists Roshi's moon busting wave as a regular Kamehameha. Translation.
5. Dragon Ball: Bouken Special again explains that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just the maximum output of the regular version of the technique. Translation.

 

[Damage3245]

It's late for me right now, but I'll make a post to address this as soon as I can.

 

[Kroneii1]

This makes a lot of sense, I agree.

 

[Ped2018]

Super based CRT

 

[Damage3245]

Just putting this out there peemptively for people; there is not a lot of point spamming the thread up with a bunch of "I agree" posts. We know that there's going to be a lot of supporters in favor of it and it's better just to let people discuss the issue if you're not going to add something new with your post.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Small problem for the second part, but Max Power Roshi ain't 5-C anymore, just "far higher" than High 8-C

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The fact we have definite evidence from a guide that we actively accept and use honestly makes a "possibly" obsolete when this statement is so clear cut.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Roshi's physicals aren't accepted as 5-C anymore, nor is there any precedent for Roshi scaling to his MAX Power Kamehameha.

 

[Damage3245]

Roshi's physicals aren't accepted as 5-C anymore, nor is there any precedent for Roshi scaling to his MAX Power Kamehameha.

That's it in a nutshell for the physicals argument, so I don't really have to address that again, thanks.

I'll focus my response on the databook.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am going to remain neutral. But watch the thread from the sidelines.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Roshi's physicals aren't accepted as 5-C anymore, nor is there any precedent for Roshi scaling to his MAX Power Kamehameha.

Even if it doesn't scale to physicals there isn't really any reason for it to be a possibly when it comes to tiens technique.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I said it first tho

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Small problem for the second part, but Max Power Roshi ain't 5-C anymore, just "far higher" than High 8-C

Oops, forgot about that.

Roshi's physicals aren't accepted as 5-C anymore, nor is there any precedent for Roshi scaling to his MAX Power Kamehameha.

Gonna update the OP to include that

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Roshi's physicals aren't accepted as 5-C anymore, nor is there any precedent for Roshi scaling to his MAX Power Kamehameha.

Small problem for the second part, but Max Power Roshi ain't 5-C anymore, just "far higher" than High 8-C

That's it in a nutshell for the physicals argument, so I don't really have to address that again, thanks.

I'll focus my response on the databook.

Nah, OP's updated.

Everyone should scale to their own basic Ki Waves, Kamehameha is basic. Vegeta tanks a Super Kamehameha from someone stronger than him, Piccolo tanks it no problem, etc, etc.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Did the MAX Power Kamehameha hit any living targets?

Piccolo scales to the Super Kamehameha, because Piccolo withstood the Super Kamehameha, albeit heavily damaged.
Who does the MAX Power Kamehameha scale?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The argument is that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular kamehameha that's used by MAX Power Roshi, and as such would be weaker than a Super Kamehameha, which usually can't even knock out those relative to the user

 

[CBslayeR]

Everyone may be stated and shown to be stronger than Roshi, but uhhhh Roshi wasn't talking about himself actually and everyone is weaker than him still.


Say goodbye to 5-C everyone because no one got stronger than Max Roshi, and Ki doesn't scale to physicals so Piccolo's moon bust doesn't scale to anyone.

High 8-C Raditz!!!!!

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Did the MAX Power Kamehameha hit any living targets?

Piccolo scales to the Super Kamehameha, because Piccolo withstood the Super Kamehameha, albeit heavily damaged.
Who does the MAX Power Kamehameha scale?

MAX Power Kamehameha is a regular Kamehameha used by someone in the MAX Power form, as the Daizenshuu explained.

Super Kamehameha is an extra-strength version of the regular Kamehameha

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Piccolo withstood the Super Kamehameha, albeit heavily damaged.

This is also false, he is mostly unfazed

 

[Dalesean027]

Everyone may be stated and shown to be stronger than Roshi, but uhhhh Roshi wasn't talking about himself actually and everyone is weaker than him still.


Say goodbye to 5-C everyone because no one got stronger than Max Roshi, and Ki doesn't scale to physicals so Piccolo's moon bust doesn't scale to anyone.

High 8-C Raditz!!!!!

That's not even remotely the oppositing argument

Hell by the way things currently are Vs Piccolo Jr. Goku would still be 5-C, yall are also missing the Big elephant in the room that is Kami... Goku>Kami who can restore the moon since the 23rd so lets not act like the opposition is brain dead here or try and make fun of people's intelligence even if ya dont agree with them

 

[DaReaperMan]

"En aquel momento pasó a ser la técnica letal más poderosa que se había visto en Dragon Ball, y Goku no tuvo otra opción que esquivarla volando. Dicho sea de paso, en la edición anterior se habían destruido la caseta del lugar del torneo y la Luna, y en ésta el ring"

Why the **** are we using a Spanish guidebook for a rating? Not English, definitely not Japanese, Spanish. IMO get your hands on the Japanese version of said guidebook or don't bother lol

Even reading the rest of the OP doesn't give me much hope for this CRT, like, cool, Super Kamehameha can deal damage to someone comparable to Goku, is this proof Ki=Physicals? Nah. I'd prefer a UES(Universal Energy System) statement of Ki scaling to Physicals in this case

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The argument is that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular kamehameha that's used by MAX Power Roshi, and as such would be weaker than a Super Kamehameha, which usually can't even knock out those relative to the user

What even is this argument?

Not only is Goku demonstrably vastly superior to Piccolo, even with his chest split open by a hole, but how is this proof of a precedent? Piccolo withstands the Super Kamehameha, so what? Piccolo is resilient. And that Vegeta example? He took a Kaio-ken Kamehameha x4 to the face. Does that mean Kaio-ken x3 Goku is just as strong as a Kaio-ken Kamehameha x4?

This is proof that Goku can damage Piccolo, who withstood the Super Kamehameha, because that is how power-scaling work.
This is not proof that Roshi can harm someone who can withstand the MAX Power Kamehameha, because we have never seen that before.

This is also false, he is mostly unfazed

Yeah, okay.

 

[Stryker861]

Why the **** are we using a Spanish guidebook for a rating? Not English, definitely not Japanese, Spanish. IMO get your hands on the Japanese version of said guidebook or don't bother lol

we accept using this there is no english or japanese version

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That's not even remotely the oppositing argument

Hell by the way things currently are Vs Piccolo Jr. Goku would be 5-C

Well, they already are. I'm arguing that every user should scale to their own basic ki waves, Super Kamehameha is just short of being something more, but it's been proven that relative and even weaker opponents can tank it no problem

 

[DaReaperMan]

we accept this there is no english or japanese version

Definitely makes it shaky IMO then, any credentials making it even remotely usable?

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

This is also false, he is mostly unfazed

Yeah, okay.

Yes, Only his clothes are destroyed, he himself didn't take physical damage. And the fact that this Kamehameha did not reduce goku's stamina at all and goku and him are relatives proves this Kamehameha isn't remotely close to Goku's full power.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Why the **** are we using a Spanish guidebook for a rating? Not English, definitely not Japanese, Spanish. IMO get your hands on the Japanese version of said guidebook or don't bother lol

Even reading the rest of the OP doesn't give me much hope for this CRT, like, cool, Super Kamehameha can deal damage to someone comparable to Goku, is this proof Ki=Physicals? Nah. I'd prefer a UES(Universal Energy System) statement of Ki scaling to Physicals in this case

The Grade 3 and SSJ2 accepted multipliers, and a bunch of Buu Saga Scaling stuff come from El Manga Legendario
See this thread, it's basically 100% valid: https://vsbattles.com/threads/third-grade-super-saiyan-multiplier.154003/

 

[DaReaperMan]

The Grade 3 and SSJ2 accepted multipliers, and a bunch of Buu Saga Scaling stuff come from El Manga Legendario
See this thread, it's basically 100% valid: https://vsbattles.com/threads/third-grade-super-saiyan-multiplier.154003/

I'm not talking about multipliers Adem, I'm talking Ki blasts=Physicals

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I'm not talking about multipliers Adem, I'm talking Ki blasts=Physicals

Ye, I was referin to how credible the Spanish Guidebook is

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

What even is this argument?

Not only is Goku demonstrably vastly superior to Piccolo, even with his chest split open by a hole,

That makes our argument stronger, Piccolo is weaker than Goku and yet can tank a Super Kamehameha wave no problem

But how is this proof of a precedent? Piccolo withstands the Super Kamehameha, so what? Piccolo is resilient. And that Vegeta example? He took a Kaio-ken Kamehameha x4 to the face. Does that mean Kaio-ken x3 Goku is just as strong as a Kaio-ken Kamehameha x4?

Who said "just as strong"

That's coming out of YOUR mouth, not ours. We said they're relative, and yes, KKx3 Goku is relative to KKx4, about 25% apart. It's evidence because it's an example of people with relative power level withstanding a blast stronger than MAX Power Kamehameha;

This is proof that Goku can damage Piccolo, who withstood the Super Kamehameha, because that is how power-scaling work.
This is not proof that Roshi can harm someone who can withstand the MAX Power Kamehameha, because we have never seen that before.

Brother,
Super Kamehameha is superior to MAX Power Kamehameha, since, again, it's a REGULAR Kamehameha
If Super Kamehameha still scales to it's user, an inferior Kamehameha would scale as well.

This is not difficult to understand

Yeah, okay.

He is visually fine, no blood or bruises, and keeps fighting like nothing happened; the fact he was scared doesn't mean much

 

[DaReaperMan]

That makes our argument stronger, Piccolo is weaker than Goku and yet can tank a Super Kamehameha wave no problem

Then Goku's Ki<<<his physicals

That's actually going AGAINST Ki=physicals lol

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

I'm not talking about multipliers Adem, I'm talking Ki blasts=Physicals

By Enhancing their own ki, their physical stats increases in this case the durability. Vegeta in order to defeat freeza ask's krillin to inflict damage to him to the point he would be on the brick of death, but krillin says with the power he has, he cannot hurt Vegeta. Vegeta says he will lower his power so that krillin would be able to harm him. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. As they should atleast be able to tank what they can dish out. And we know that there are limits to physical statistics but can be overcome with ki and the higher the ki the higher the physical stats increases.
Also, in the vs wiki page for UES (UNIVERSAL ENERGY SYSTEM), ki is listed as using this form of system.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Definitely makes it shaky IMO then, any credentials making it even remotely usable?

I love people who doesn't know about the site's standards of the verse comes talking like they do.


El Manga Legendario is a guidebook made for Spain, it was written by Shueisha and then translated and released in Spanish. There is no Japanese version, this is an official source, it's not shaky at all, you're just ignoring official stuff for the sake of ignoring, English guides have no more or less authority than a Spanish one, they're both validated by the same people;

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Neutral for now. Both sides are making good points.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Then Goku's Ki<<<his physicals

That's actually going AGAINST Ki=physicals lol

Are you joking?

Also, idc about ki=physicals, physicals are augmented by Ki either way, I'm trying to prove physicals SCALE to basic ki waves, if you don't disagree with that, your comments do nothing to add or refute OP

 

[DaReaperMan]

I love people who doesn't know about the site's standards of the verse comes talking like they do.


El Manga Legendario is a guidebook made for Spain, it was written by Shueisha and then translated and released in Spanish. There is no Japanese version, this is an official source, it's not shaky at all, you're just ignoring official stuff for the sake of ignoring, English guides have no more or less authority than a Spanish one, they're both validated by the same people;

I love it when trying to inform, instead of being outright and genuinely informative like Adem was, you choose "bitchy" and "Arrogant"

I'll take you seriously when ya drop the attitude of "my interpretation is the only one acceptable!" Because that's how your coming off, at least be a classy dick, come on!

Do I assume you're joking or not?

Also, idc about ki=physicals, physicals are augmented by Ki either way, I'm trying to prove physicals SCALE to basic ki waves, if you don't disagree with that, your comments do nothing to add or refute OP

And yet you haven't proven anything like that, you've proven that some KI shit is weaker, be more like this individual down below sans overly bolding the posts, gets straight to the point, shows said point, and backs it up!

By Enhancing their own ki, their physical stats increases in this case the durability. Vegeta in order to defeat freeza ask's krillin to inflict damage to him to the point he would be on the brick of death, but krillin says with the power he has, he cannot hurt Vegeta. Vegeta says he will lower his power so that krillin would be able to harm him. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. Emptying the ki from your body exposes the more fragile physical body. As they should atleast be able to tank what they can dish out. And we know that there are limits to physical statistics but can be overcome with ki and the higher the ki the higher the physical stats increases.
Also, in the vs wiki page for UES (UNIVERSAL ENERGY SYSTEM), ki is listed as using this form of system.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah idk why people are debating Ki amping physicals it all backscsles either way like dragon ball is UES the series Goku ain't ******* Mountain level and 2-C with Ki blast bro is just 2-C.

This only works out in early early db where Goku uses the Kamehameha when nothing else does the trick for that extra punch to his power. (King is right there btw early goku ain't relative to his kamehameha or at least it should scale higher to him regular physical). By Picollo Jr. Bro is sinply just moon level for being > Kami and Roshi and having a statement directly being on the level of moon level roshi with the Super Kamehameha which piccolo physically survives and we know he is >>kami as well while heavily weakened who is still Moon level at that point.

22nd Budokai is a different story imo

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Then Goku's Ki<<<his physicals

That's actually going AGAINST Ki=physicals lol

ki amps his physical stats. And at the end they were both getting weaker (but even in that weaken state, piccolo jr still thinks he can beat everyone on this stage even if there were 100 of them + Kami has he is simply far stronger and roshi agrees. Even when weaken and fatigue nobody dares to fight him)

Recoome tanks vegeta ki attacks with no damage besides his clothes, yet goku with a single elbow one shots recoome. This same recoome can sneeze away a ki attack coming from potential unlocked gohan who has a power level of over 10 000 and makes vegeta think he his kakarot himself.

 

[Dalesean027]

Bro please we don't have to explain the basis of ki, this is legit stupid if someone disagrees they can make their own thread formulating a site wide downgrade of all dragon ball and do the necessary calcs for the new ratings they want for separating ki and physicals but otherwise we don't need to explain this if someone disagrees with the fundamentals of ki that's another thread and good luck to them cause they'd be blatantly wrong

 

[DaReaperMan]

ki amps his physical stats. And at the end they were both getting weaker (but even in that weaken state, piccolo jr still thinks he can beat everyone on this stage even if there were 100 of them + Kami has he is simply far stronger and roshi agrees. Even when weaken and fatigue nobody dares to fight him)

Recoome tanks vegeta ki attacks with no damage besides his clothes, yet goku with a single elbow one shots recoome. This same recoome can sneeze away a ki attack coming from potential unlocked gohan who has a power level of over 10 000 and makes vegeta think he his kakarot himself.

Cool ya even summarized it!