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SSJ2 Gohan should NOT be 2x stronger than Super Perfect Cell
- Thread starter The_Yellow_Topaz
- Start date
- Status
- 12,456
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it is a multipliers thing, SSJ2 is 2x stronger than SSJ1, so the 4-B that we scale SSJ1 Gohan/Dabura/Perfect Cell from is half the value we scale Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan to
honestly we should just Downscale Cell Saga MSSJ Goku to Perfect Cell imo, but meh, don't want to derail this thread, so it should prob be left to another thread
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Power level differences don't always equate to AP 1:1, don't put too much stock on that. It's why downscaling causes issues at times
Cell was simply suppressed enough that Goku could hurt him, whatever that translates to in terms of energy values, is what it is, incredulity doesn't change that
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,512
- Thread starter
- #45
That's a terrible way to see this, Cell thought Goku was the ONLY ONE WORTHY OF FIGHTING HIM
If he was suppressing himself so much that someone billions and billions of times (or at least so weak they wouldn't scale to Cell) can hurt him, he could very well do the same to literally anyone and say they're a match for him, and "have fun". In this scenario, even Mr Satan could be a fun fight for him.
Stop. Goku should scale to Cell to some extent.
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Again this wouldn't be an issue if Buu Saga ssj2 Gohan wasn't above Buu Saga ssj Goku, which AGAIN the scans used don't suggest
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That the ONLY way to see it.
He was seen as the strongest of the Z fighters, so yes, he thought so, then basically got disappointed and even asked him to take a sensu bean mid fight
Which is exactly what he did? You say billions as of it's his power level that will drop by billions, this is the same series that has a farmer with a PL of 5 and a moon buster with a pl of 400. Small changed in PL can translate to massive energy values changes, you can't just assume there is some parity between Goku and FP perfect Cell when all we have of Goku is matching an arbitrary suppressed cell
This is just whataboutism, reducing his ki to Goku's level to enjoy a fight has nothing to do with if he'd find a fight as low as Satan enjoyable
Scales to suppressed cell yes, certainly doesn't scale to being a solar system buster
For the record, I am of the opinion that ssj Goku, ssj Gohan, and PC should be 4C and ssj2 Gohan, SPC should be 4b, I am not saying Goku fought a solar system buster
Not sure if that's what you're also arguing for or against
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What exactly is the evidence for Goku to not scale to cell in any way shape or form for us to simply not downscale him from cell?
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Iirc nothing really,he has no antifeats to any of the other cell saga characters.
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Simple solution:
Perfect Cell
Attack Potency: Star level (At full power, Cell is far stronger than any of the Z-Fighters, including SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan, and is capable of casually toying with both. He is outclassed only by SSJ2 Gohan. Equal to Dabura who is comparable to SSJ Buu Saga Gohan)
Super Perfect Cell
Attack Potency: At least Star level (After his Zenkai, he grew in power to reach SSJ2 Gohan's level and broke his arm with a single ki blast.), Solar System level with Kamehameha (He said that he was going to destroy the solar system from Earth, a statement that has been confirmed by many guidebooks)
Son Goku (Cell Saga)
Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level, Star level as a Super Saiyan (He was the second strongest fighter at the time[38] even at only 50% of his power[38], fought against Perfect Cell and nearly killed him with his Instant Kamehameha, though Cell wasn't fighting at full power)
Son Gohan (Cell Saga)
Attack Potency: Star level as a Super Saiyan (Superior to Goku as a Super Saiyan in his suppressed calm state), higher as a Super Saiyan 2 (He casually stomped Perfect Cell, easily overpowering his most powerful Kamehameha from a standing position and at the last second), Solar System level with Kamehameha (Overpowered Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha and killed him)
Dabura
Attack Potency: Star level (Equal to Perfect Cell. Fought comparably against SSJ Gohan), Stone Spit ignores durability
Perfect Cell
Attack Potency: Star level (At full power, Cell is far stronger than any of the Z-Fighters, including SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan, and is capable of casually toying with both. He is outclassed only by SSJ2 Gohan. Equal to Dabura who is comparable to SSJ Buu Saga Gohan)
Super Perfect Cell
Attack Potency: At least Star level (After his Zenkai, he grew in power to reach SSJ2 Gohan's level and broke his arm with a single ki blast.), Solar System level with Kamehameha (He said that he was going to destroy the solar system from Earth, a statement that has been confirmed by many guidebooks)
Son Goku (Cell Saga)
Attack Potency: At least Dwarf Star level, Star level as a Super Saiyan (He was the second strongest fighter at the time[38] even at only 50% of his power[38], fought against Perfect Cell and nearly killed him with his Instant Kamehameha, though Cell wasn't fighting at full power)
Son Gohan (Cell Saga)
Attack Potency: Star level as a Super Saiyan (Superior to Goku as a Super Saiyan in his suppressed calm state), higher as a Super Saiyan 2 (He casually stomped Perfect Cell, easily overpowering his most powerful Kamehameha from a standing position and at the last second), Solar System level with Kamehameha (Overpowered Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha and killed him)
Dabura
Attack Potency: Star level (Equal to Perfect Cell. Fought comparably against SSJ Gohan), Stone Spit ignores durability
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I think the issue is whether the perfect cell he faced is solar system or not
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There is no reason for them to drop entire tiers from their Kamehameha tho, SPC and SSJ2 Gohan should be SS level, then higher with KHH
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Like what I've said before:
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,853
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Unquantifiable boost.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,584
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Pretty sure every other max charge Kamehameha is like only few times stronger than the user, like the Super Kamehameha in Dragon Ball and the Charged Kamehameha used against Raditz.
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No reason not to drop them either.
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they dont scale to the Kame, so the onus is on you to prove why they should be SS level
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SSJ2 Gohan = 4-B for scaling to super perfect cell, ssj1 gohan = 2x less than thar due to accepted multipliers, so perfect cell who is comparable to ssj1 gohan would be 2x weaker than hia super perfect cell key's 4-B, which is still 4-B, just lower
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But that's a calm ssj gohan he's superior to, not a hypothetical ssj gohan with rage boost which we currently have
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
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- Thread starter
- #60
Great. So, uhh, does this have to do anything with the actual thing I want to remove, because...?
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Just posting a solution to help with any scaling issues. The previous CRT for Cell's Kamehameha was already accepted IIRC so it can be implemented at the same time as this thread.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,853
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Again, unquantifiable.
Unless you can prove that the Kamehameha Goku used against Raditz actually only multiplied his strength by 2.22115384615x.
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Can it? Like before we had a similar thing with the moon scaling and now that's changed
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,512
- Thread starter
- #64
Well, if it's already accepted, there is no reason to discuss it, right? This would also greatly affect the Buu Saga scaling (also bringing this up in the AP thread would've been amazing)
But regardless, we're not even finished with this thread, so I'd like to focus on it before moving on to other things, more staff votes are needed.
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,512
- Thread starter
- #65
This is likely my last revision on this site, btw. Some dumb, dumb shit is about to happen.
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I mean, I am basing off from the series itself, the Kamehameha has always given a boost that doesn't take the user up a tier
Goku's super Kamehameha vs Piccolo
Goku's Kamehameha vs Raditz
Goku's KK*20 Kamehameha vs 50% Frieza etc
It's stronger than their normal stats but not an entire tier above,
I may be wrong tho
Oh yea, SPC is several times above baseline, this is the issue with downscaling at times imo, at that point where crossing a PL gets you to another tier entirely. But honestly, blowing the solar system in the story was only a thing after SPC, if PC could do it, that blast wouldn't make sense.
But this seems to be derailing, so I'll just drop it
DivineAura44
He/Him- 5,403
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I agree
because Cell is stronger than Gohan.
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I believe that was with the old Frieza calc and old multipliers.
Ghengiroo115
She/Her- 1,811
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Wouldn’t Cell downscale from his Kamehameha since he was gonna survive the Solar System’s destruction?
DivineAura44
He/Him- 5,403
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Doesn't this assume that Dragon Ball is based on VSBW's tier of power?
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You might actually be right.
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Cell wasn't aiming specifically to blow up the Solar System with his final attack; he just said he had energy / Ki to be able to do that if he wanted.
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i mean..........he can regenerate even after being reduced to a few Cells, he doesn't need to tank it
The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,512
- Thread starter
- #75
That's not a good counterpoint to this statement, his Kamehameha especifically had that much energy, if he shot it out and it exploded, as several official interpretations showcased, it would've engulfed the sun and destroyed everything.
Omega's point makes more sense as a rebuttal imo
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Okay, but let's not forget that Cell can fly, can teleport, and would only be taking a fraction of the blast even if he didn't do either of those two things, and can regenerate from tiny clump of cells that make up his core.
So it's not a good argument for him downscaling.
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Even cells can't survive energy capable enough to destroy solar system. Not within point blank range for sure.
Ghengiroo115
She/Her- 1,811
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True, but he’d get completely engulfed by the explosion and would still survive. I feel like he’d need enough durability to somewhat survive the explosion, or else he’d just get vaporised like at the end of his beam struggle with Gohan. Maybe I’m wrong though.
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@DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X Can we get some input on this please?
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While I do think an enraged SSJ2 Gohan is stronger than SPC, and that "Using less than half his power" wasn't something he was doing during the final act. I suppose I'm fine with a slight downgrade assuming he is more than 2x the power of SPC.
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