Serlock_Holmes
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Let's all calm down. At the moment I can't reply more so I hope other people on Op's side will weight in.
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Tien and co. back to 5-C (Dragon Ball Revision)
- Thread starter The_Yellow_Topaz
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Just before replying to the whole thing... You know damn well this is not true.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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I will, cope.
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I'm fine with the rating becoming a concrete one rather than a possible one. The statement, while not directly specifying what exactly is being compared here, as in if it's still just a generalized technique difference or a comparison between individual's usage of both techniques. I don't believe the statement explicitly proves both. I do however believe it does implicitly prove it's more so talking about a level of superiority of this technique above all other techniques. It specifically talks about how the technique used by Tien became the "most powerful lethal technique that had been seen in Dragon Ball".
Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha would be included in this statement since it's a lethal technique previously used in the series. Damage brought up the manga's explanation of the scene, which does more so talk about generalized technique differences in my honest opinion. But the problem with Damage's arguments is that none of those explanations actively disprove the databook statement. It's entirely possible for the technique in general to be above Kamehameha, while it's also possible that Tien's usage of the technique is above Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha. Both claims aren't inherently incompatible, both can be true in this situation. The statements in the manga also don't have just one valid interpretation in my opinion. So they aren't default defeaters to the claim.
So while the claim doesn't explicitly state such, I believe with the compounding evidence given, that it has enough credence to have a concrete rating. I would also be fine with it being upgraded to a likely rating as compromise if needed.
As for this scaling directly to stats or not, I'm neutral on it. I will let the debate continue on before commenting on it.
Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha would be included in this statement since it's a lethal technique previously used in the series. Damage brought up the manga's explanation of the scene, which does more so talk about generalized technique differences in my honest opinion. But the problem with Damage's arguments is that none of those explanations actively disprove the databook statement. It's entirely possible for the technique in general to be above Kamehameha, while it's also possible that Tien's usage of the technique is above Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha. Both claims aren't inherently incompatible, both can be true in this situation. The statements in the manga also don't have just one valid interpretation in my opinion. So they aren't default defeaters to the claim.
So while the claim doesn't explicitly state such, I believe with the compounding evidence given, that it has enough credence to have a concrete rating. I would also be fine with it being upgraded to a likely rating as compromise if needed.
As for this scaling directly to stats or not, I'm neutral on it. I will let the debate continue on before commenting on it.
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Frypan Kamehameha ≠ Max Power Kamehameha
A Kamehameha used by Roshi at full Power ≠ A MAX Power Kamehameha
The Daizenshuu says so.
All you guys proved was that it's a Kamehameha, which it is. It's just stronger.
The Legendary Guide says it's a kamehameha at its maximum potential.
It's stated to be a maximum power kamehameha, which makes it the strongest Kamehameha Roshi has used at that point, including superior to the one used at frypan, the one with the 180 power level, which he didn't say maximum power for.
The Daizenshuu confirms that the first time he ever used the Max Power Kamehameha is during the 21st, and the one he used was just a regular kamehameha used at full power.
Max Power Kamehameha used by Full Power Roshi ≠ Kamehameha used by Full Power Roshi
A Kamehameha used by Roshi at full Power ≠ A MAX Power Kamehameha
The Daizenshuu says so.
All you guys proved was that it's a Kamehameha, which it is. It's just stronger.
The Legendary Guide says it's a kamehameha at its maximum potential.
It's stated to be a maximum power kamehameha, which makes it the strongest Kamehameha Roshi has used at that point, including superior to the one used at frypan, the one with the 180 power level, which he didn't say maximum power for.
The Daizenshuu confirms that the first time he ever used the Max Power Kamehameha is during the 21st, and the one he used was just a regular kamehameha used at full power.
Max Power Kamehameha used by Full Power Roshi ≠ Kamehameha used by Full Power Roshi
The_Yellow_Topaz
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- #206
I challenge you to give a reasonable explanation to how Roshi went from 139 to 180 in a few hours without doing any training at all.
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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The Daizenshuu never said it was Roshi that used it. The user was JackIe Chun that's why it was stated again. It was the same as the frypan one except if you have some other scan.
An explanation from Damage stated that it was just Roshi raising the percent of his strenght. But considering the original kamehameha part and the fact that in all the others only the base pl is stated it's kinda weird to say it's just the power level of a higher percent Roshi. Even if that were the case if his full buff form has the same PL as Goku's and Tien's base it kinda would make sense for them to easily scale to it.
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A Likely rating is fine with me too if it comes to it, for the record. I just don't believe it is solid based on all of the available evidence.
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THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON
Bro wtf
So do you want a scan for each Kamehameha used by different people if they're all the same?
Like now you're just being dishonest
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Don't ask me I didn't make the guide I'm just literally saying they said perhaps. Hell I'm trying to get yall a compromise so don't bite the hand helping ya
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By trying harder
Serlock_Holmes
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No I'm literally saying that the reason they said it was because it was done under the appearance of of Jackie Chun. Nowhere is Roshi stated and it's done for fun as the previous picture shows Jackie Chun going full power. You can see that the person who did it is Jackie Chun and nowhere is Roshi stated. That move however is not included in the technigues Yellow posted because it was the same kamehameha Roshi used.
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Right now I'm leaning to giving Tien outright 5-C via Kikoho and giving Tien, Goku and I suppose Roshi a likely 5-C rating.
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Clearly Roshi is secretly a Saiyan and got a Zenkai boost.I got your explanation right here:
Sorry, it was the perfect setup.
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On top of that, it wouldn't mean shit
The same techniques used by different people would still have the same "first usage" moment.
This isn't a "character technique list", it's a "special attack list", and unless it says "first usage done here by a different person", it's the same
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Even the Mountain Kamehameha is like 7-B, which is above Tien and Goku's current High 8-C
Serlock_Holmes
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Jackie Chun first appears in ch. 51
Jackie Chun's kamehameha appears in ch.51. Literally don't understand how you don't see this. The user is different for a reason. The same reason you are denying that they included because it was done under a disguise.
Literally the mountain FRY PAN one says with all his might and all of the energy in his body. It's literally the same thing. We see him gasping after Mt. Frypan. He literally couldn't go higher.
Yellow posted a list with all the technigues. Max power kamehameha is never stated as it's just a kamehameha. Super Kamehameha is stated though.
Kanzentai - Translations
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It is stated in the Daizenshuu though...
Nullflowerblush
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That is not his debut, that is when he used MAX Power Mode.
Are you intentionally being disingenuous?
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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That it was done by a different person. Using nearly the same description with Mt. Frypan being even more detailed in saying he used all his energy rather than just his muscles.
Nullflowerblush
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Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Yeah sorry he doesn't have a debut ch. listed only the volume but thanks for also pointing out that they also mention Max Power mode twice...kinda like the kamehameha being referenced twice because it's done by two technically different characters.
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Jackie Chun's first appearance is not chapter 51.
Jackie Chun first appears in ch. 51
All that says is that's the chapter of the scan used (aka a reference), not the first time the technique was used.
You're not even listening
That is not the first time "Jackie Chun's Kamehameha" was used.
Jackie Chun's kamehameha appears in ch.51. Literally don't understand how you don't see this.
It's the first time The Max Power Kamehameha was used.
Jackie Chun was doing Kamehamehas in chapter 47.
Stop piggybacking off of Topaz and do your own research, cause if you did you'd see that Super Kamehameha and Max Power Kamehameha are under the same section of "Kamehameha"Yellow posted a list with all the technigues. Max power kamehameha is never stated as it's just a kamehameha. Super Kamehameha is stated though.
Kanzentai - Translations
Kanzentai ~ providing detailed and researched information, and media for true DragonBall fans everywhere.web.archive.org
Kanzentai - Translations
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Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,026
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Oh, okay, this is intentionally being disingenuous. Right. So that is the Daizenshuu 2. The final Daizenshuu 7 lists only Jackie Chun as the user of the MAX Power Kamehameha, whereas both the Kame-sennin and Jackie Chun are listed as users of the original.Yellow posted a list with all the technigues. Max power kamehameha is never stated as it's just a kamehameha. Super Kamehameha is stated though.
Kanzentai - Translations
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Serlock_Holmes
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Okay can't deny what you posted. I stand corrected.Jackie Chun's first appearance is not chapter 51.
All that says is that's the chapter of the scan used (aka a reference), not the first time the technique was used.
You're not even listening
That is not the first time "Jackie Chun's Kamehameha" was used.
It's the first time The Max Power Kamehameha was used.
Jackie Chun was doing Kamehamehas in chapter 47.
Stop piggybacking off of Topaz and do your own research, cause if you did you'd see that Super Kamehameha and Max Power Kamehameha are under the same section of "Kamehameha"
Kanzentai - Translations
Kanzentai ~ providing detailed and researched information, and media for true DragonBall fans everywhere.web.archive.org
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I am definitely coming off very rude so I apologize btw
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Don't worry about it; just chill out a bit and we're all good.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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- He could hurt him. You're saying it's such a big gap that only way Roshi could've kept up is with his full power strength
You're actually required to prove that Roshi did any damage to Tien. Believe it or not, you can't just talk outta nowhere!
Also yes I said Roshi is too inferior to Tien to ever consider beating him with his base form, that's the truth.
- Several Misinterpretations: Once at full power, he instantly blinded Roshi, made it harder for him to look. Tien after saying "full power" just blinded Roshi and cheap shotted him.
Tien gave Roshi a cheap shot, and only AFTER ROSHI HAD ALREADY BEEN RECOVERED, he rushed him. It's a clear indication of superiority in strength and speed there, you can't blame the Taiyoken from 3 pages ago.
- They way they word it is that if Roshi kept fighting how he was, he would've lost.
I don't know what to tell you, this is just false. You were the one who went out of your way to explicitly point out that Tien knew Roshi wasn't at full power, and now is claiming that both Tien and Roshi are referring to Roshi's performance on the ring, and not taking said full power into account.
Oh wait, didn't you say Tien was never referring to Roshi's performance?.
Tien is absolutely assuming Roshi's full power wouldn't be enough, and Roshi is confirming it.
- when he fires the original kamehameha... like back on frypan..?
No, Roshi didn't have a Power level of 180 on Chapter 14, Tempest. Can you believe it? It's his power level during the 22nd when he uses the original Kamehameha.
- the same Kamehameha but different naming for it. Like Super Kamehameha
Difference is, Super Kamehameha has a lot more statements of strength accross multiple guides.
- it's just a kamehameha, but much stronger. Just like Super Kamehameha.
The Super Kamehameha itself has a greater strength with little deplet in stamina. MAX Power drains Roshi.
Daizenshuu 2 bundled all the Kamehameha together and then said Super Kamehameha is stronger.
- Roshi's regular kamehamehas wouldn't scale to that at all, neither would anyone else.
Aight, I'm tired. I'll respond to the rest later.
Also, Shin is Buu level according to that logic of regeneration. Of course I'm joking but there is a lot more examples.
Serlock_Holmes
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Eh this is kinda a heated debate for all sides so it's okay as long we don't start saying bad things so we are cool. I mean it's kinda expected with well-known verses and I'm sorry too if I said something bad during the back and forth. All water under the bridge eventually.
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But he never uses the Kamehameha during the 22nd Budokai, does he? (At least, not during his round)
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Blame Shounen Jump, not me. "The Original Kamehameha" is the name of Roshi's Kamehameha. It's how strong his Kamehameha would be.
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Links broken
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I figured it out, I just fixed it
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That is not the truth at all
Bro even the name of the chapter when they fought was "evenly matched" like what.
He rushed him, got blocked, then landed one hit.
You need to get into more fights if you think 1 hit automatically means that it's clear that you're superior in strength and speed.
He's not making any assumptions of his full power.
He's saying "he didn't use his full power, but if he kept fighting how he already was, he would've lost"
He can't make a measurement of his full power if he doesn't know his full power.
So his held back Kamehameha he used on Tien's sensei who's weaker than his physicals is at a 180 when his regular PL was 139?
On top of that, this is him when he's not "Jackie Chun" and when he's against Piccolo, when he doesn't use the Kamehameha, AKA serious base Roshi.
You don't use fallacies. Fallacies aren't "I summon fallacies".
A fallacy is a bad argument. You have a bad argument.
You're saying that they're both noted as separate techniques when they aren't, aka you trying to equate them.
The Kamekameha is noted as a different technique.
The Max Power Kamehameha is noted as the same technique, but a different version of it. Same as the Max Power Kamehameha.
The Super Kamehameha does not have a little depletion of stamina. Goku just has a crap ton of stamina.
This is false for reasons above
The_Yellow_Topaz
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You fabricated an entire new line to justify your bad argument, that's amazing. I'm done though, I'll let people judge both sides.
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nah i just got it from the translation i was reading from, since viz likes to make shit up occasionally
you fabricated like 2 entire lines in the OP so let's not go there
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,026
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The "Original Kamehameha" is the name of an attack in Budokai Tenkaichi.
And, Roshi had a Power Level of 180 during the King Piccolo Saga. Nothing about his Kamehameha.
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