GERs Speed is outdated

[Firephoenixearl]

Please tell me you're joking

The fact is that people use that very fight to give HAD infinite speed though.
I am neutral on the topic, but the fact that we only use it one-sidedly is ugh...

 

[Chariot190]

Because the things I said weren't refuted.

Are you ******* with me? Not only were they refuted, heavily at that, they were before you even brought it up. Hell, I don't think you know the the word refute even means because there's no way you can actually say this.

Well there you go, without causality manipulation KC was a bit faster than GER. Thread is done.

Excuse me? In what world did you get that off of what I said?

No, GER'S range is "anything in his presence" same as SP range is 2m, the effect of their skills ican be universal in range.

This is completely made up headcanon, RTZ has explicitly shown capable of effecting things that span the whole universe, and telling them to go **** off, pretty blatant infinite range to me, and everyone else, but not only that, he was capable of putting Diavolo in an infinite death loop for all eternity across parallel worlds, last I checked, being able to effect something and having the range to do so on a thing that's no longer even in your dimension is a pretty blatant example of "Infinite range and being able to effect something not in your presence". Mind you, nobody is even saying GER has Infinite range, just range above other Stands (Which just so happens to be Infinite by 3D standards and is at least bordering on multiversal by feats alone, which funnily enough supports itself).

Also your whole point is that the "none" is for GER stats not for it's skill.

Uh, I hope you do know the quote in question is quite literally explicitly talking about his stats and every single Stand in the guide has one right? And GER's is the line that's being talked in question. So, yeah, it is my point.

This whole thing is pointless since GER will never allow Giorno to be damaged, if the 100% absolute future Epitaph shows it's posible (aside from causality manipulation) then it means GER would have failed to block KC + TIMESKIP with just it's speed alone.

Yes, in the future that was guaranteed to occur no matter how impossible it may have been, King Crimson managed to punch through Giorno. That's quite literally all we know about it, was it because he was faster than GER? No, it doesn't, and if I have to repeat myself one more time I swear to God. What part of Epitaph's futures are absolute, no matter how impossible they may be.
Like dude holy shit, Diavolo has LITERALLY used Epitaph to abuse fate and causality to have actions done that he would otherwise be completely impossible and incapable of performing and the fact you have to add onto that with "+Time Skip", as in, King Crimson didn't just throw a punch and was quicker on the draw, he's literally abusing time, absolute futuresight and fate and cause and effect to land a hit from behind. Like, seriously?

GER moving offpanel doesn't mean his movements didn't take time in-universe.

Never said it did, but, you did say that GER was never depicted as moving instantly or anything of the sort, in which case, you're wrong. He was depicted, as his very first feat, as being able to basically teleport from Point A to Point B while doing a bunch of things inbetween, all at such a speed that it couldn't even be shown, all before King Crimson could land a hit he was already in the process of throwing. He literally did a nothin personel kid. Does that warrant infinite? Definitely not on its own, but it doesnt change the fact you're literally wrong on that front.

Araki could have GER said it, could have Giorno said it, could have said it himself in the stand card, but didn't, the timer thing has been used to showcase a character speed hundreds of times so if Araki wanted he could have done that.

GER literally says nothing about things we know for a fact either, GER doesnt say "Hey I can death loop your ass", he doesnt say "Hey im so strong im literally able to exceed every other stand in raw attack power casually", he doesnt say "hey i can manipulate cause and effect", GER doesnt comment on ANYTHING it can do other than "You will never reach the truth", the best he does is tell Diavolo off in regards to RTZ using flowery language, nothing else. And you want GER to give us a complete rundown of every capability of it? When we're told basically the same shit elsewhere in guides? Like come the **** on. And Giorno? In case you forgot Giorno has absolutely no idea what GER can do or what it's capable of, we're outright told this on panel and it's repeated in every guide, Giorno can't tell us anything about GER because he knows nothing about it. Araki also left out such critical information as "Hey this ****** could fold every stand in existence in raw power, he can literally cave the skulls of the god tiers" out of the Stand card too, opting to relegate information like that to the guide. So, again, what are you actually talking about? And a timer? the only time Araki has ever used a timer for anything is countdowns, at the end of chapters, to crucial events, and he's only done it twice in the span of 30 years, with the second time being a call back to the first. You're asking for Araki to have drawn in a TIMER of all things, you could use that argument for every speed feat in the verse, no offense but that's stupid as ****. Ignoring that there's actually a roundabout timer in place at one point but eh. And yes, if Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have, but he didn't, why didn't he want to? Because clogging up the climax of a part where a character gives another justice while talking meta and fate and about the deceased is what he wanted, not this.

You are assuming GER decided to not protect Giorno just to troll

except he didn't decide not to? He did protect Giorno, which is why the guaranteed future that would happen no matter how impossible it may be never came to pass, because he DID protect Giorno. Like what in the actual hell are you trying to argue?

Ultimately if you think it "wouldn't serve the scene" doesn't mean it's imposible to depict instant movements in manga form.

GER literally instant transmissions at one point as his very first thing he does. That's like the most blatant you'll ever get without being tryhard.

From the point of view of versus debating yeah, without his causality manipulation GER is just a bit stronger than SP by powerscalling.

Opinion discarded, in no world is being able to nothin personel and ripping someone apart "just a bit stronger" then the character you did that to.

Without causality manipulation this is how a GER fight looks.

Non-canon? Boy don't you even start, if we bring in noncanon there's been actual times where Giorno fought Pucci, and blitzed him. That's right, GER folded a bloodlusted highly accelerated MIH and Pucci, without a single semblance of effort in non-canon.

But again, you're arguing pointless shit because nobody atm is arguing for Infinite GER physically, but yet, here we are.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Following

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Lord Chariot......... Our true savior is here

 

[ShivaShakti]

Non-canon? Boy don't you even start, if we bring in noncanon there's been actual times where Giorno fought Pucci, and blitzed him. That's right, GER folded a bloodlusted highly accelerated MIH and Pucci, without a single semblance of effort in non-canon.

But again, you're arguing pointless shit because nobody atm is arguing for Infinite GER physically, but yet, here we are.

Yeah if we wanna bring in Non-Canon things, theres plenty of whacky shit in Jorge Joestar lmao

 

[Hasch]

Are you ******* with me? Not only were they refuted, heavily at that, they were before you even brought it up. Hell, I don't think you know the the word refute even means because there's no way you can actually say this.

Stop repeating the same thing, make new arguments and come back or concede.

This is completely made up headcanon, RTZ has explicitly shown capable of effecting things that span the whole universe, and telling them to go **** off, pretty blatant infinite range to me, and everyone else, but not only that, he was capable of putting Diavolo in an infinite death loop for all eternity across parallel worlds, last I checked, being able to effect something and having the range to do so on a thing that's no longer even in your dimension is a pretty blatant example of "Infinite range and being able to effect something not in your presence".

That's the range of the skill, not reflected in stands stat pages, that's why KC has E in range.

Yes, in the future that was guaranteed to occur no matter how impossible it may have been, King Crimson managed to punch through Giorno. That's quite literally all we know about it, was it because he was faster than GER? No, it doesn't, and if I have to repeat myself one more time I swear to God. What part of Epitaph's futures are absolute, no matter how impossible they may be.
Like dude holy shit, Diavolo has LITERALLY used Epitaph to abuse fate and causality to have actions done that he would otherwise be completely impossible and incapable of performing and the fact you have to add onto that with "+Time Skip", as in, King Crimson didn't just throw a punch and was quicker on the draw, he's literally abusing time, absolute futuresight and fate and cause and effect to land a hit from behind. Like, seriously?

Well Epitaph doesn't show imposible futures, for all intents and purposes Epitaph shows what is going to happen and it shows KC killing Giorno without GER being able to avoid it with just his stats.

So, no infinite speed.

Never said it did, but, you did say that GER was never depicted as moving instantly or anything of the sort, in which case, you're wrong. He was depicted, as his very first feat, as being able to basically teleport from Point A to Point B while doing a bunch of things inbetween, all at such a speed that it couldn't even be shown, all before King Crimson could land a hit he was already in the process of throwing. He literally did a nothin personel kid. Does that warrant infinite? Definitely not on its own, but it doesnt change the fact you're literally wrong on that front.

This isn't even an argument, you say "Does that warrant infinite? Definitely not on its own" in the same sentence as "GER was never depicted as moving instantly or anything of the sort, in which case, you're wrong"

You admit it was never depicted as moving in 0 time, but because it moved offpanel it "can't be proved it didn't move in 0 time"

You are making 0 sense.

GER literally says nothing about things we know for a fact either, GER doesnt say "Hey I can death loop your ass", he doesnt say "Hey im so strong im literally able to exceed every other stand in raw attack power casually", he doesnt say "hey i can manipulate cause and effect", GER doesnt comment on ANYTHING it can do other than "You will never reach the truth", the best he does is tell Diavolo off in regards to RTZ using flowery language, nothing else. And you want GER to give us a complete rundown of every capability of it? When we're told basically the same shit elsewhere in guides? Like come the **** on. And Giorno? In case you forgot Giorno has absolutely no idea what GER can do or what it's capable of, we're outright told this on panel and it's repeated in every guide, Giorno can't tell us anything about GER because he knows nothing about it. Araki also left out such critical information as "Hey this ****** could fold every stand in existence in raw power" out of the Stand card too, opting to relegate information like that to the guide. So, again, what are you actually talking about? And a timer? the only time Araki has ever used a timer for anything is countdowns, at the end of chapters, to crucial events, and he's only done it twice in the span of 30 years, with the second time being a call back to the first. You're asking for Araki to have drawn in a TIMER of all things, you could use that argument for every speed feat in the verse, no offense but that's stupid as ****. Ignoring that there's actually a roundabout timer in place at one point but eh. And yes, if Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have, but he didn't, why didn't he want to? Because clogging up the climax of a part where a character gives another justice while talking meta and fate and about the deceased is what he wanted, not this.

You argued instant movement can't be depicted, you now agree "Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have" so this argument is done.

GER literally instant transmissions at one point as his very first thing he does. That's like the most blatant you'll ever get without being tryhard.

Then Kenshin Himura has infinite speed?

 

[Rikimarox2]

inb4 chariot has a mental breakdown

For real though, I agree with chariot here.

 

[Hasch]

Chariot's arguments are based on a logical fallacy and contradict canon so this thread should be closed since OP is correct.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Chariot's arguments are based on a logical fallacy and contradict canon so this thread should be closed since OP is correct.

Not really your decision to make there mate.

 

[Ionliosite]

but the fact that we only use it one-sidedly is ugh...

We use it one-sidedly because EoH isn't canon, and thus doesn't have any reason to scale anything outside of EoH (and even then, it wouldn't, since only thing that scales to TWOH is SPOH).

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Chariot makes the most sense, anyone else just doesnt try to debunk the points or uses head canon to do

 

[M3X_2.0]

Chariot's arguments are based on a logical fallacy and contradict canon so this thread should be closed since OP is correct.

LMFAOOOOOO

 

[GiornoGiovannaF]

what should we do for GER ap

 

[Chariot190]

Stop repeating the same thing, make new arguments and come back or concede.

Hasch I swear to God, are you actually telling me to make new arguments, when I've been telling you to do that since before you even responded, and you failed to do so every single post because you've done absolutely nothing here in regards to bringing new information and have even admitted above to have repeated the same arguments over and over again, yet have the audacity to tell me to make a new argument or concede when your very first post in response to me was things I had directly commented upon BEFORE you even brought them up? I swear to **** this better be a joke.

That's the range of the skill, not reflected in stands stat pages, that's why KC has E in range.

Oh, you mean the skill? The causality manipulation, that you've been continuously saying is why it has None in his stats, despite the actual text? Ok then GER has manifestation range that exceeds every other Stand, wow cool, ironically enough BIG has Infinite manifestation range along with a few others so neat, big upgrade here if we're assuming its his manifestation, even though it could be either. guess what, not how it ******* works, it's not even what it says. Ignoring the range can be a few things not just manifestation, though that's moot to the topic at hand, you're moving the goalposts and it's sickening, You say, plain as day, "GER's range is only what is in his presence", referring to what RTZ can effect and the range on it, after explicit feats that blatantly contradict your claim and notion you're now backepedaling to say "well yeah that's his ABILITY range, not his range", even though we were always talking about his ability range in the first place.

Well Epitaph doesn't show imposible futures, for all intents and purposes Epitaph shows what is going to happen and it shows KC killing Giorno without GER being able to avoid it with just his stats.

It literally has and he's abused the **** out of it in conjunction with time skip. Don't "for all intents and purposes", yeah, no shit it is going to show what happens, that's the whole point, what it shows is GURANTEED AND ABSOLUTE no matter how IMPOSSIBLE it may be. The vision is FATED to happen, it doesnt matter what one does, no matter how impossible, if it is shown, it WILL happen. Even if you know it's going to happen, you can't do anything at all about it because it's going to happen no matter what. Meaning? It doesn't matter how fast GER is, King Crimson could be slower than a normal human and GER could be The Flash, if Epitaph shows King Crimson punching through Giorno it will happen no matter how impossible the odds, likelihood and circumstances of it. And the worst part of all this is, your whole argument is based off a desperate in denial Diavolo's assumption. Not to mention we're shown that GER is so fast that King Crimson is at minimum completely frozen compared to him doing drastic movements despite punching at full speed, kinda drawing your argument into question as is. Your whole argument is based upon a character's assumption who is purposely shown to be wrong at every step of the arc on purpose, which is needless to say, ridiculous.

So, no infinite speed.

And this is how I know you don't actually read things properly. News flash for literally like the 8th ******* time, nobody is arguing for Infinite GER holy shit.

This isn't even an argument, you say "Does that warrant infinite? Definitely not on its own" in the same sentence as "GER was never depicted as moving instantly or anything of the sort, in which case, you're wrong"

It's an argument, to what you said, acting like I was arguing something else opposed to the words you said in the above post in reference is blatant dishonesty because that's exactly what you're doing. And oh yeah, could you not quote half a sentence and taking it out of context of the full sentence?

You admit it was never depicted as moving in 0 time, but because it moved offpanel it "can't be proved it didn't move in 0 time"

Strawmanning again? I never said that, what I did say was that by itself it doesnt warrant anything, by itself, as in, in a vacuum, guess what this isn't? A ******* vacuum. Offpanel? I don't think you understand, it didn't move off panel, we were in full view of GER the entire time, he effectively teleported. GER moved himself off panel, but he didn't move off panel, his movements happened within the panels we were shown, but he was just so fast we couldnt actually see him move. I'm not using this as an argument for infinite speed though, what I am using it as though is a counter to the "Oh he's only a bit faster than King Crimson" or "People could react to him", because no, they can't and couldn't unless he wanted them to.

You are making 0 sense.

Probably if you opt to only read half of what's been said.

You argued instant movement can't be depicted, you now agree "Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have" so this argument is done.

What in the actual ****, do you just interpret people's arguments to mean whatever the **** you want when in no world whatsoever do they actually mean that? I didn't argue instant movement can't be depicted, though I did say how the **** would one even do so and imply it'd be unconventional as shit. On the contrary, I pointed out an example where GER actually is depicted as instant movement, as literally teleporting from Point A to Point B and doing shit within said "teleport" most certainly would be considered instant movement in a vacuum if one wanted to convey instant movement visually. You'd just draw a character in one spot, then another with nothing inbetween while making it explicit he moved and did things inbetween, there's literally no other way to visually convey instant movement actually. Of course, I'm not saying this automatically means infinite speed, it obviously doesnt (in a vacuum), but in regards to you saying GER was never drawn or depicted as moving like that? Well you're straight up wrong on that front.
You're ******* insufferable, I know for a fact you're doing this on purpose now, there's no way in hell this wasn't purposeful.

Here's what I actually said "if Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have, but he didn't, why didn't he want to? Because clogging up the climax of a part where a character gives another justice while talking meta and fate and about the deceased is what he wanted, not this."

Leaving out the keyword of ******* "if" to make it seem like I said Araki wanted to that is dishonest at best, ignoring the latter half of my sentence. If you're just going to quote me out of context while leaving out keywords to strawman and misconstrue my argument, well honestly I dont know what to say that wouldn't get me in shit so eh.

Then Kenshin Himura has infinite speed?

False analogy much?

 

[Chariot190]

what should we do for GER ap

I'll cover that in the AP crt, Ill do that when im out of the hospital.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Question: If GER gets Infinite attacks speed via RtZ, does that mean TWOH is still infinite, it managed to negate ger before RtZ went off

 

[Hasch]

Hasch I swear to God, are you actually telling me to make new arguments, when I've been telling you to do that since before you even responded, and you failed to do so every single post because you've done absolutely nothing here in regards to bringing new information and have even admitted above to have repeated the same arguments over and over again, yet have the audacity to tell me to make a new argument or concede when your very first post in response to me was things I had directly commented upon BEFORE you even brought them up? I swear to **** this better be a joke.

You can keep stonewalling then, won't take you anywhere.

Oh, you mean the skill? The causality manipulation, that you've been continuously saying is why it has None in his stats, despite the actual text? Ok then GER has manifestation range that exceeds every other Stand, wow cool, ironically enough BIG has Infinite manifestation range along with a few others so neat, big upgrade here if we're assuming its his manifestation, even though it could be either. guess what, not how it ******* works, it's not even what it says. Ignoring the range can be a few things not just manifestation, though that's moot to the topic at hand, you're moving the goalposts and it's sickening, You say, plain as day, "GER's range is only what is in his presence", referring to what RTZ can effect and the range on it, after explicit feats that blatantly contradict your claim and notion you're now backepedaling to say "well yeah that's his ABILITY range, not his range", even though we were always talking about his ability range in the first place.

You claimed GER has powerscalling from every Stand because it can be measured in the same scale, to prove that point you used the range from KC ability, which is unrelated to stats and wouldn't give anything to GER.

You have no argument.

It literally has and he's abused the **** out of it in conjunction with time skip. Don't "for all intents and purposes", yeah, no shit it is going to show what happens, that's the whole point, what it shows is GURANTEED AND ABSOLUTE no matter how IMPOSSIBLE it may be. The vision is FATED to happen, it doesnt matter what one does, no matter how impossible, if it is shown, it WILL happen. Even if you know it's going to happen, you can't do anything at all about it because it's going to happen no matter what. Meaning? It doesn't matter how fast GER is, King Crimson could be slower than a normal human and GER could be The Flash, if Epitaph shows King Crimson punching through Giorno it will happen no matter how impossible the odds, likelihood and circumstances of it. And the worst part of all this is, your whole argument is based off a desperate in denial Diavolo's assumption. Not to mention we're shown that GER is so fast that King Crimson is at minimum completely frozen compared to him doing drastic movements despite punching at full speed, kinda drawing your argument into question as is. Your whole argument is based upon a character's assumption who is purposely shown to be wrong at every step of the arc on purpose, which is needless to say, ridiculous.

Wrong, Epitaph simply shows the future, if it's an imposible thing it won't happen and will not be shown in the first place, meaning even if he hadn't used Epitaph KC still would have hit Giorno before GER could do anything.

Strawmanning again? I never said that, what I did say was that by itself it doesnt warrant anything, by itself, as in, in a vacuum, guess what this isn't? A ******* vacuum. Offpanel? I don't think you understand, it didn't move off panel, we were in full view of GER the entire time, he effectively teleported. GER moved himself off panel, but he didn't move off panel, his movements happened within the panels we were shown, but he was just so fast we couldnt actually see him move. I'm not using this as an argument for infinite speed though, what I am using it as though is a counter to the "Oh he's only a bit faster than King Crimson" or "People could react to him", because no, they can't and couldn't unless he wanted them to.

Well then your point is useless, since you admit it's not depicted as moving at infinite speeds.

What in the actual ****, do you just interpret people's arguments to mean whatever the **** you want when in no world whatsoever do they actually mean that? I didn't argue instant movement can't be depicted, though I did say how the **** would one even do so and imply it'd be unconventional as shit. On the contrary, I pointed out an example where GER actually is depicted as instant movement, as literally teleporting from Point A to Point B and doing shit within said "teleport" most certainly would be considered instant movement in a vacuum if one wanted to convey instant movement visually. You'd just draw a character in one spot, then another with nothing inbetween while making it explicit he moved and did things inbetween, there's literally no other way to visually convey instant movement actually. Of course, I'm not saying this automatically means infinite speed, it obviously doesnt (in a vacuum), but in regards to you saying GER was never drawn or depicted as moving like that? Well you're straight up wrong on that front.
You're ******* insufferable, I know for a fact you're doing this on purpose now, there's no way in hell this wasn't purposeful.

Here's what I actually said "if Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have, but he didn't, why didn't he want to? Because clogging up the climax of a part where a character gives another justice while talking meta and fate and about the deceased is what he wanted, not this."

Leaving out the keyword of ******* "if" to make it seem like I said Araki wanted to that is dishonest at best, ignoring the latter half of my sentence. If you're just going to quote me out of context while leaving out keywords to strawman and misconstrue my argument, well honestly I dont know what to say that wouldn't get me in shit so eh.

And all this mean is it moved faster than the characters there could perceive and there's 0 evidence of actualy moving in 0 time.

False analogy much?

I mean he also seems to teleport sometimes, guess that makes him infinite in speed.

 

[Eficiente]

I believe this should be moved to a staff discussion with at least Chariot allowed there, to avoid chaos like this.

 

[Hizack123]

Question: If GER gets Infinite attacks speed via RtZ, does that mean TWOH is still infinite, it managed to negate ger before RtZ went off

Interesting but another topic for anothe time i guess.

And i side with Chariot190.

At least MTL likely higher and Infinite with RTZ.

 

[Chariot190]

You can keep stonewalling then, won't take you anywhere.

Because I'm the person stonewalling?

You claimed GER has powerscalling from every Stand because it can be measured in the same scale, to prove that point you used the range from KC ability, which is unrelated to stats and wouldn't give anything to GER.

Oversimplyfing what I said? Sure whatever. To prove the point I used KC's range? That's quote literally not what I ******* I did, at all, why the hell do you have such a tendency to take everything I say out of context of the context it's actually said in and in response to? It'd be a miracle if you actually read anything through properly.

You have no argument.

Which is why I've spent so much time talking to your ass over things I touched upon before you even opened your mouth?

Wrong, Epitaph simply shows the future, if it's an imposible thing it won't happen and will not be shown in the first place, meaning even if he hadn't used Epitaph KC still would have hit Giorno before GER could do anything.

Wrong? Do I really need to spoonfeed you a dozen or so scans coupled with guides to get a point that's ******* accepted by quite literally everyone, even outside the wiki, baring you apparently, hell this isn't even subject to debate, the ****** literally abuses this shit in story. If Diavolo hadn't used Epitaph we would never know and we wouldn't know what was fated, which, read everything i said prior. Like what the **** am I even supposed to do here, at this point you're arguing basic established facts.

And all this mean is it moved faster than the characters there could perceive and there's 0 evidence of actualy moving in 0 time.

It's ******* baffling to me how you keep talking without realizing the end result of what's been argued. I don't even think you've realized the actual argument being made and are just jumping to conclusions on what's being said without properly reading the context in which certain things are said. And it's ironic as shit in regards to that 0 time statement given the reason why this thread exists in the first place. Not withstanding GER "teleporting" has never been the basis for a speed justification and was ever claimed to be in this thread, the very reason it's been brought up is completely irrelevant to the thing you think it's being argued and it's tiresome.

I mean he also seems to teleport sometimes, guess that makes him infinite in speed.

And that somehow doesn't make it a false analogy? It could be so much more than that and would still be one. Not withstanding that isn't even my argument.

 

[Chariot190]

I believe this should be moved to a staff discussion with at least Chariot allowed there, to avoid chaos like this.

I mean is there even a point, the only person in this thread who has issue with anything is him, and it's literally just the constant regurgitation of shit already said against a point he's clearly to dense to have realized isn't even being argued anymore. Maybe a staff discussion would've been the optimal route to start but that boat long sailed.
So ignoring Hasch because I'm about to ******* shoot myself.
Can at least me and you come to a reasonable conclusion and agree above on the above proposed changes bar some minor tweaking if needed and call it a day so we get this shit done and over with? We were already on the right track, may as well finish that up civilly.

 

[Eficiente]

We do, but unfortunately that's not the same as the profile needing to be changed yet. It sucks this thread became so long and repeated over things that could have been generally avoided by the average users in it. Yeah it should have started like that, not sure what to do now.

 

[Chariot190]

We do, but unfortunately that's not the same as the profile needing to be changed yet. It sucks this thread became so long and repeated over things that could have been generally avoided by the average users in it. Yeah it should have started like that, not sure what to do now.

We could just start off where we left off, given we were already almost at an agreement that I'm pretty sure everyone just about was fine with it given the the influx of agreement with the conclusion since yesterday (I think we have like a dozen in agreement but I didn't really count). Only real disagreement here is Hasch and he hasn't been saying anything that hasn't already been said.

So let's just continue what we were talking about before you had to go, finish that up and call it a day is what we should do imo, best to get this over with sooner rather than later.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll likely be agreeing with "At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero", emphasis on the RtZ being attack speed and the likely higher for its normal speed not being there, I'll get to why later after commenting.

Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.

Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.

Is where we left off.

 

[Eficiente]

The feats it had counts to have an "At least" as GER would seem to be, idk, around 5 times faster or so, but even with that advantage both are still actually somewhat comparable.

• When GER threw a rock at Diavolo if GER was on a whole other level then it would have known it purposely attacked KC's hand, instead of seeing it blocking what it was originally aiming for and re-aim in another part. Diavolo only being able to react to this via precog shows the gap being big, but then again, not on a whole other level.
• In the future that was going to happen before GER did its thing Diavolo punched through Giorno without GER reacting to the damage being made in it, this being something Diavolo says is him being a moment faster. This future KC shows can't be something GER allowed Diavolo to see as GER doesn't have any powers like it, its RtZ was even yet to kick in as Diavolo didn't attack yet.
• When GER attacked Diavolo it took it long enough for others to react to it and for KC to pointlessly threat Giorno. While GER could have held back its power there, I'm very sure that the context of the verse often points to one being able to do so to torture a target a bit while still going at top speed.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well, I personally disagree with scaling GER overall speed to BIG or MiH theoretical max speed. Due to the fact the rating of "none" is not explicitly said to be superior to actual infinite speed, and the fact they don't even have infinite speed in most scenarios, and likely wont get it in any given battle.

I could see possibly giving RtZ infinite speed however, does anybody have input on the mechanics of how RTZ is supposed to activate and work? I think that is important to establish first before deciding if it infinite speed or not.

 

[Chariot190]

When GER threw a rock at Diavolo if GER was on a whole other level then it would have known it purposely attacked KC's hand, instead of seeing it blocking what it was originally aiming for and re-aim in another part.

That's false though? GER probably did simply attack his hand on purpose, why do I say that?
Because even in the vision of Epitaph, his hand was attacked, not his head, not his chest, his hand. Diavolo himself even says "I saw the hole appear in my hand which let me avoid the brunt of the attack" (He also goes on to say he didn't see the moment GER actually made a movement to attack, again, confirming he outright can't even see him move).
Ger never aimed for anywhere but his hand, not in the vision, not outside of it. And why would he? He hadnt yet gave Diavolo his monologue, which is something GER actively wanted to do.

Diavolo only being able to react to this via precog shows the gap being big, but then again, not on a whole other level.

He couldn't even react via precog, he says himself he couldn't actually see GER attack both in the vision and out of it, he explicitly says he saw a hole appear in his hand within Epitaph and basically tried to dodge ahead of time. Which kinda confirms GER attacked his hand on purpose as that was the originals ball vision where King Crimson didn't even make an effort to dodge, while also confirming that Diavolo couldn't see the attack regardless. (Not to mention, we're talking about a pebble flicked by him, not actually GER itself. A casual pebble flick shouldn't be the same as GER's actual speed for a multitude of reasons, technically speaking it's a strength feat, not even a speed feat, I wonder if we can work out his strength from that actually ).I

This future KC shows can't be something GER allowed Diavolo to see as GER doesn't have any powers like it, its RtZ was even yet to kick in as Diavolo didn't attack yet.

First part of that I talked about extensively, would prefer not to tread the same waters.

I mean, you aren't wrong, GER itself obviously didn't actively showed a twisted future or fake one or something, nothing says or implies he has that power, but fate did, if Epitaph shows something, that thing will happen no matter what, it's fate, preordained, even if it makes no ******* sense. Because that's happened a LOT.
Though, I'd like to point out that Epitaph was still showing that future even after time resumed and even when being beaten to a pulp. Which should be saved for another time but it's interesting and points to several possible things.

WhenGER attacked Diavolo it took it long enough for others to react to it and for KC to pointlessly threat Giorno.

That's actually not true, when GER attacked Diavolo (I'm assuming when you meant he begin pummeling his ass into the ground), it's implied directly after that nobody really followed what happened at all, Trish/Mista say directly after the pummel say "I didn't really see or understand what it just did", but either way".
That's right, Mista literally says he didn't actually see what GER did or understand why Diavolo got launched into a river, but he doesn't give a shit, he's just happy it's over.
And yes, the only thing Mista could possibly be referring to is the pummel, as everything else happened in erased time or never happened because RTZ, obviously I shouldn't have to explain why Mista saying "I didn't see what happened" isn't referring to something he wouldn't even know occured or gas zero recollection of, to him, all he knows is GER became a thing, he flicked something at Diavolo, Giorno proceeded to approach Diavolo, then the thing that put Diavolo out, then Mista says "I didn't even see what happened but neat he's a bloody pulp in a river now". So in regards to them following GER's movements? That never happened and it's even said they couldn't.
KingCrimson threatening Giorno?
Do you mean when he says "You goddamn kid!".
GER stopped attacking in that scene? He stopped to say something to him one final time, in the moment GER stopped attacking to say his thing, King Crimson tried to retaliate back, but was promptly put back to being pimped before he could even even get half a moment into his retaliation. I wouldn't say King Crimson making a remark when the character in question, GER, purposely stopped attacking him, to mean King Crimson is even slightly comparable especially when King Crimson isn't even remotely fast enough to even get to properly throwing his strike before GER says "lol nice try", well not litterally but you get my point.
I should also mention that when King Crimson says that and Ger stops to talk to him, he only does so in response to Diavolo erasing time again, that whole exchange takes place in deleted time.
It's hard to get across in the manga outside of the colored panels but it's easy to tell in the anime, though I should add onto that, King Crimson moving GER's hand out of the way or Diavolo looking back at him and summoning KC is anime only, that isn't depicted in the manga at all. In the manga it's a total of 3 panels.

While GER could have held back its power there, I'm very sure that the context of the verse often points to one being able to do so to torture a target a bit while still going at top speed.

He could have, and you're not wrong on that, Star Platinum seems to be a case where that happens often, holding back but still being extremely fast. But, as said above, King Crimson only gets a threat in because GER itself stopped attacking him to talk, and all of that exchange happened in erased time, a place where GER can stop and shit talk without Giorno being aware. (Because he wants to his capabilities for some reason?).

Also you left out GER's pst nothin personel feat, where while King Crimson is mid punch, he could come out of his shell, grab and heal Giorno, move around Diavolo to behind him, then float in the air, all while Diavolo is looking dead at him and Giorno's body, in the span it took to Disvolo's fist to hit the shell, at minimum, though likely significantly less given he did so in complete view of Diavolo and he didn't even realize GER did all that right in front of him.
That's textbook definition of being ludicrously higher then someone else, that sequence alone warrants it, even just comparing the distance the punch would have moved to where GER moved would suggest at least a difference in the double digits based on distance alone, of course we can't quantify it without calc stacking (and even then, he did it all without being perceived) and I'm pretty sure King Crimson could perceive it even if just a blur if the timeframe was his own punch length, mind you GER did this with seemingly the utmost casual of efforts.

---

---

Put simply or a tldr because I know you don't really like when I go on tangents (sorry, bad habit).

GER never aimed anywhere but Diavolo's hand when he flicked the pebble, it's shown as much.
Diavolo himself says he failed to see GER even flick it both in and out of Epitaph so he never actually reacted to GER, merely the aftermath in the vision (which he says) and it's also just a pebble, not GER himself so even if he did react to it, it wouldn't really matter.

Nobody actually followed GER's beatdown, oddly enough, and thank **** for it, it's said they couldn't actually see him beat Diavolo down and had no idea what GER just did to him.

When King Crimson threatened Giorno, he only did so because GER stopped punching to talk himself, and because King Crimson erased time to try and get out or counter, he failed.

so basically, I still think a likely higher is warranted, he's been shown and stated to be completely imperceptible to basically anyone, the only times someone got a word in against him is because he basically let it happen, even the allies couldn't really see what just went down and GER can casually do some coldsteel the hedgehog tech.
idk I think a likely higher is fair all things considered. I'm not even saying likely far higher, just higher.
(I'll get the needed scans later if need be, I don't have access to a laptop or anything, on mobile).

 

[Chariot190]

Well, I personally disagree with scaling GER overall speed to BIG or MiH theoretical max speed. Due to the fact the rating of "none" is not explicitly said to be superior to actual infinite speed,

Well first off, there is no "theoretical max speed", it is their max speed, there is no theory here.
No, but the context of the quote is that it's rated as None because it's superior to every other Stand, in which, as I posted numerous scans of, ranging from guides, the manga and even japanese scans, two Stands in particular have an Infinite rating in speed in particular. It doesn't say "It's None because it's infinite", it's "It's None because it's above every other Stand that uses stats in some facet".
It means the exact same thing at the end of the day in regards to at least some factor of speed. But this only applies to the cap of what we know exists, attack power for example, GER doesn't have infinite attack power because of his None, because no Stand has infinite attack so there's nothing to scale him off, but something like range? That's something that exists (And he demonstrably has feats of such range to so that helps as well) but GER does scale above the strongest of all Stands due to his None (plus the fact it's outright said).

and the fact they don't even have infinite speed in most scenarios, and likely wont get it in any given battle.

This literally doesn't matter, at all, they're rated at their peak speeds, hence why their listed as Infinite in every single iteration ever and GER scales above the stats as a whole. Take MIH for example, he's not rated as "C to Infinite", he's just Infinite. You're missing the entire point here and "well they aren't always at that speed" is a literal nonfactor to why anyone would scale. Also MIH actually does hit infinite speed in his main battle. And he only gets better at utilizing the acceleration the second time around. Not that it matters because it's irrelevant. And in regards to BIG, I severely doubt his whole copy schtick, no guide mentions it, the original japanese manga doesn't even have the "matches speed" line so even then.

Though, as said above, there's some vagueness to what the speed of GER could be referring to, it could be physicals, but there's a real possibility of it talking about RTZ in that situation, which is why I'm willing to compromise and leave it as RTZ having infinite speed at the very least. Though in hindsight half this post is moot given you said overall speed initially not at all, so my bad, sorry.

I could see possibly giving RtZ infinite speed however, does anybody have input on the mechanics of how RTZ is supposed to activate and work? I think that is important to establish first before deciding if it infinite speed or not

As stated and even shown above, it really wouldn't matter, something about GER scales above the infinite stands, but how does it activate? You're not going to get a straight answer, we don't know exactly how it activates, it could be inferred, but that's about it, doesn't help that other material that features GER consistently portrays it differently every single time. And work? Don't know what you're asking here, it's basically just "no" the ability.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Still don't agree with scaling "none" to theoretical infinite speeds personally, I don't feel it is clarified that "none" stat > "infinite" stat even in a comparative nature. Can you post the scans quickly here that you feel directly indicate this?

It matters if we treat his ability as passive, automatically activating and autonomous, or conscious effort by himself. These would all effect what the best way to list RtZ is.

 

[Chariot190]

Still don't agree with scaling "none" to theoretical infinite speeds personally, I don't feel it is clarified that "none" stat > "infinite" stat even in a comparative nature. Can you post the scans quickly here that you feel directly indicate this?

It matters if we treat his ability as passive, automatically activating and autonomous, or conscious effort by himself. These would all effect what the best way to list RtZ is.

Why do you keep saying "theoretical", it isn't, at all, in fact we outright see MIH hit infinite speed on panel. And that's without even getting into BIG, in which the profile is incorrect and needs to be reworked at a later time. Yes, it's not comparable,

Yes, nobody said None > infinite, I even directly explained that above, what's so hard to understand about this? This is like the 5th time. And I posted scans earlier in the thread.

It's all of those probably, as said, we do not know and you're not getting an explicit answer here (I mean we're discussing a character that's barely touched upon in verse, actively keeps his capabilities secret, and is only featured for 3-4 chapters, of which are mostly exposition and Diavolo dying) and then some guides that barely tell us more, I honestly wish I knew dude.
There's secondary and noncanon, but he works differently in all of them so there's no consistency.
But, again, it doesn't matter, because if you want to say it's not his physical speed, then the only other alternative is RTZ's speed, it's one or the other here. Your arguments of "They aren't always that fast" or "It's just theoretical" are irrelevant because 1, they're rated at their peak speed, their stat is quite literally infinite, scans posted earlier in the thread. 2. It being theoretical is blatantly false, stop saying that.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I say theoretical because BIG has never demonstrated Infinite speed, and the way he functions prevents him from using it, if he has it, unless the foe has infinite speed, which is a theoretical scenario that never happened. MiH for the majority of the time is not at infinite speed, and it takes him time to reach said speed the one time he does it, so its not outright infinite speed from the start of any given battle.

I specified the "none" stat and the "infinite" stat in regards to the stand stats, I thought you were claiming GER's "none" stat is above the "infinite" stat in the stand guides, but if not I don't see where your arguing for infinite speed from if he isn't demonstrably faster than MiH and BIG. I saw him stated to be the "ultimate stand" in your scans, but that doesn't indicate to me that his speed surpasses MiH or BIG. Even if we are applying RtZ only as beyond MiH and BIG you still need proof that RtZ is faster, and applies to the infinite speed level is all im saying.

What specific scan and statement do you feel makes GER, or RtZ faster than MiH at his peak basically, since BiG relies on a theoretical scenario and is iffy to use, and the only one who actually reaches infinite speed is MiH.

 

[Chariot190]

Isay theoretical because BIG has never demonstrated Infinite speed, and the way he functions prevents him from using it unless the foe has infinite speed, which is a theoretical scenario that never happened.

And you're wrong, have you not actually read the thread? I'm not repeating myself again after this, has BIG demonstrated it? No, but that doesn't change what his peak speed is as we're constantly told that's what it is, there's no contradictions, and the only other Stand explicitly given the same rating is proven capable of hitting said speed. And the way it functions? This is how I know you haven't actually been paying attention, I just said the profile is wrong did I not? The way whole "copies a target's speed" thing is bullshit, I even posted the original japanese scan earlier in the thread..I'd appreciate it if I didn't have repeat myself when I've explained and even given explicit proof earlier.

MiH for the majority of the time is not at infinite speed, and it takes him time to reach said speed the one time he does it, so its not outright infinite speed from the start of any given battle.

And? Again, this is a complete and utter nonargument it's not even funny. MIH could be slower than a normal human 99% of the time, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that he can and has hit infinite speed, and he's rated as infinite due to his top speed. As long as his stats say "Infinite" it doesn't matter what he starts off as because he's rated at his best abd we know his best is legit. This also doesn't change the fact you said he wouldn't hit that in any battle even though such a statement is explicitly false and does indeed occur in the story.

I specified the "none" stat and the "infinite" stat in regards to the stand stats, I thought you were claiming GER's "none" stat is above the "infinite" stat in the stand guides,

He's above whatever the highest is for any particular Stand that uses it. BIG and MIH have an Infinite speed stat, so he scales above them. But that doesn't mean that applies to every stat because not every stat has an infinite rating in existence, only 3 do, and funnily enough we know for a fact based on feats that GER directly applies at least 2 of the 3 infinite ratings as he has feats that exceed them.

but if not I don't see where your arguing for infinite speed from if he isn't demonstrably faster than MiH and BIG.

He doesn't even need to be demonstrably faster, if he scales above, he scales above. There's not even any real contradiction, the only issue here is that his speed rating could possibly be referring to RTZ, not his physical, and as such I'm willing to compromise here and be reasonable.

I saw him stated to be the "ultimate stand" in your scans, but that doesn't indicate to me that his speed surpasses MiH or BIG.

You're right, because that line is about something else, the reason that line is brought up is for a different reason which gives clarity for a reason other then this. That was explained like 70 posts ago. That line by itself in a vacuum is eh.

Even if we are applying RtZ only as beyond MiH and BIG you still need proof that RtZ is faster, and applies to the infinite speed level is all im saying.

No we ******* don't? If it outright scales above them then it scales above? There's not a single contradiction to the claim either for RTZ, not a single one. You're basically saying "Even though we know it scales above these two in particular we need proof it does even though there's no reason to believe otherwise".
Like what do you expect? What is it you want in particular, and be reasonable because you're talking about a character who literally only uses this ability twice, three times at best. With one time being negating someone's death.

What specific scan and statement do you feel makes GER, or RtZ faster than MiH at his peak basically, since BiG relies on a theoretical scenario and is iffy to use, and the only one who actually reaches infinite speed is MiH.

I'm literally just repeating myself at this point and I touched upon everything you just said at least ten times by now. You have the scans already. At least one of them, that being itself or RTZ, is above MIH because we're outright told why he has None, and that's because he's superior to literally all of them. Made in Heaven uses the scale, he has an infinite rating, ergo, GER's None in speed is > MIH and especially BIG given its the same part.
BIG doesn't rely on a theoretical scenario because the way you THINK it works isn't actually how it works, I even bothered to check the raws to make sure. And it doesn't matter either way because BIG explicitly is listed as Infinite, in quite literally every single guide and iteration, **** I even MISSED one that still gives him the stat, and he shares this with MIH, a Stand that can undeniably hit said speed. All that matters is that they're rated as infinite, and GER scales to that rating in some caliber.

I'm only going to say it one more time, them not always being that fast is completely irrelevant as the stats are explicitly them at their best and said stats are quite literally "Infinite". (I posted them already, you can even check yourself, they've been posted).
And there is no theoretical anything here, stop trying to say it is when it isn't.

 

[SSJRyu1]

First off the hostility isn't appreciated and is counterproductive. I'm simply trying to iron out exactly what your claiming and why. There's no need to be cursing.

It is a theoretical speed for BIG since it's never displayed, whether he is capable of it or not.

I didn't say MiH would never hit that speed, I said that in most battles he would not, and does not reach it.

So I looked at your scans again and all your direct translation for GER in the guide says is it is the ultimate stand, nothing about speed in your translation underneath.

You claimed that his "none" stats are specifically said to exceed any quantifiable stat of the same kind among all other stands as your main argument is what I am seeing, but I can't find the direct quote/wording and scan of this. If you can provide that it would be much appreciated.

 

[Chariot190]

First off the hostility isn't appreciated and is counterproductive. I'm simply trying to iron out exactly what your claiming and why. There's no need to be cursing.

Not hostility, if I was actually being hostile you'd know. Cursing? Sorry mate but some cursing here and there is so ingrained into me it'd be an actual pain in the ass to stop. Consider it a habit not meant to offend or be taken the wrong way.

It is a theoretical speed for BIG since it's never displayed, whether he is capable of it or not.

That's not what theoretical means, it doesn't need to be displayed if it's one of the most commonly stated attributes of the thing. We know it can do so and acting like because it never got the chance to because it's literally braindead doesn't invalidate it's rating or it's top speed.

I didn't say MiH would never hit that speed, I said that in most battles he would not, and does not reach it.

You, and I quote, said "and likely wont get it in any given battle.". You did say likely so I'll give you that as that isn't an absolute, but you kinda just shot yourself in the foot by saying he does not reach it. You do realize MIH hits infinite speed in quite literally half the fights he's in? And the second time he actively stopped going infinite so he didn't bring Emporio into his new world? Like what the actual **** are you talking about? Hell, this argument about MIH not always being a certain speed literally doesn't matter. He CAN hit infinite and he's rated as infinite due to that. Those two things are the only things that have to be true for this debate, in which they are.

So I looked at your scans again and all your direct translation for GER in the guide says is it is the ultimate stand, nothing about speed in your translation underneath.

You really haven't been paying attention and it's getting extremely tiresome, like holy shit dude. You haven't been keeping at all, you don't even know what you're supposed to be arguing against. My translation? You mean the imgur album one I posted? About his attack power? Would probably be why speed isn't mentioned because speed was never a topic for that translation in particular.

You claimed that his "none" stats are specifically said to exceed any quantifiable stat of the same kind among all other stands as your main argument is what I am seeing, but I can't find the direct quote/wording and scan of this. If you can provide that it would be much appreciated.

Dude it literally says Requiem's powers (powers/abilities being his stats like strength, range, staying, etc) are outright impossible to compare with the same scale that ranks all existing stands and as such are rated as None, not because they don't exist or because they're weak, but because he ***** on all other Stands. With the context being due to his superiority over them. There's been multiple translations tossed around in this thread so far. Hell even the scan has been posted. Why is it I'm arguing things that have been long since established and posted in your very own thread? It's all here there dude.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Translation :

<<After breaking Polnareff's Requiem. Giorno holding the "arrow" buys his own Gorud experience and expresses it. The power of the "arrow" is completely under Giorno's control.

The ability is to return all the actions and intentions of the attacking opponent to nothing. He has an attack power that surpasses the existing stands, so he can be said to be the Ultimate Stand. >>

<< the abilities of requiem transformed by the "Arrow" is incomparable with existing stands.... >>

 

[Chariot190]

I swear to

Translation :
"
After breaking Polnareff's Requiem. Giorno holding the "arrow" buys his own Gorud experience and expresses it. The power of the "arrow" is completely under Giorno's control.

The ability is to return all the actions and intentions of the attacking opponent to nothing. He has an attack power that surpasses the existing stands, so he can be said to be the Ultimate Stand. "

Wrong part, that's the part I translated. The part about stats is, well, under his stats.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I swear to

Wrong part, that's the part I translated. The part about stats is, well, under his stats.

Read what I posted above again

 

[Chariot190]

Wasn't there at first but fair enough.

Edit: I'm going to do one last rundown of my proposal and the reasoning in a quick and easy check list in a bit.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Wasn't there at first but fair enough.

That scan should probably be added as an extra justification for GER Infinite speed rating tbh

 

[Chariot190]

That scan should probably be added as an extra justification for GER Infinite speed rating tbh

It's going to have to be added after this is done regardless no matter the result, which will hopefully be today, because this is starting to drag.