GERs Speed is outdated

[SSJRyu1]

Theoretical: "based on or calculated through theory rather than experience or practice." So if it didn't get shown or happen, but is what they are thought to be able to do by fans, guides or otherwise, it is theoretical. So BIG having infinite speed is not shown, but is being interpreted as his upper limits, therefore him having infinite speed is theoretical by definition.

Also according to his profile it can also be translated as "unlimited" as opposed to infinite and can be considered as potential hyperbole to say he can achieve actual infinite speed.

Translation :
"
After breaking Polnareff's Requiem. Giorno holding the "arrow" buys his own Gorud experience and expresses it. The power of the "arrow" is completely under Giorno's control.

The ability is to return all the actions and intentions of the attacking opponent to nothing. He has an attack power that surpasses the existing stands, so he can be said to be the Ultimate Stand. "

^ This doesn't indicate superior speed.

"the abilities of requiem transformed by the "Arrow" is incomparable with existing stands....".

This could easily refer to only his RtZ ability being superior, not his speed or even the speed of the skill. Also BIG as he exists has not moved at infinite speed, and its frankly questionable if he can since his rating could be translated as unlimited to, and render literal "infinite" as hyperbole, which is the conclusion the wiki came to already. MiH doesn't even exist at that time, and hasn't been created when this was published, so can't be reasonably compared in the guide as they had no idea of him. So I don't see that as convincing proof that he has infinite speed since it could just refer to the potency of his ability compared to that of others, and at best you can say he could scale to BIG, who is varied and may or may not have the ability to move at literal infinite speed.

I just did a little more digging btw, and JoJo-a GoGo was released in 2000 only going up to Part 5, while MiH didn't even appear till 2003, therefore it is impossible for the guide to consider MiH in its statements about GER being a superior stand, or having superior stats to other stands etc.

I don't think a single secondary source comparison indirectly to BIG, who we don't even consider to have infinite speed on the wiki and who has never shown it is enough proof that GER has infinite speed, including with RtZ. Because GER is not compared to MiH, and only possibly BIG, I don't see a reason to give him infinite speed even with RtZ at this time, unless you can prove the skill itself is demonstrably infinite in speed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Translation :

<<After breaking Polnareff's Requiem. Giorno holding the "arrow" buys his own Gorud experience and expresses it. The power of the "arrow" is completely under Giorno's control.

The ability is to return all the actions and intentions of the attacking opponent to nothing. He has an attack power that surpasses the existing stands, so he can be said to be the Ultimate Stand. >>

<< the abilities of requiem transformed by the "Arrow" is incomparable with existing stands.... >>

This one is even more explicit tbf

 

[Chariot190]

Theoretical: "based on or calculated through theory rather than experience or practice." So if it didn't get shown or happen, but is what they are thought to be able to do by fans, guides or otherwise, it is theoretical. So BIG having infinite speed is not shown, but is being interpreted as his upper limits, therefore him having infinite speed is theoretical by definition. Also according to his profile it can also be translated as "unlimited" as opposed to infinite and can be considered as potential hyperbole to say he can achieve actual infinite speed.

Which it isn't, holy shit Ryu, this isn't a "well it's a theory", it's a "This is stated no less then 5 ******* times to be the case". This isn't a theory, this isn't a "well maybe it is or isn't", it's literally telling you straight to your face "This ******'s max speed is literally infinite, tied with Made in Heaven, a Stand that explicitly has infinite speed", I could understand the confusion maybe if this was just brought up but I gave scans ages ago... And second off, you haven't even read your own thread have you? News flash, you're repeating information that was touched upon like a HUNDRED posts ago, the profile is outright ******* wrong, it can't be translated as Unlimited, it quite literally CAN'T. And I explained why in my FIRST POST on this thread and later on even went and gather the original japanese manga scans to prove my point. Stop saying the same shit that had already been talked about in full and outright debunked with actual undeniable proof of the profile being wrong and needing to be reworked. It's not being interpreted as his upper limits, it IS his max speed. It isn't theoretical by any definition because the reason you think it is is just you not actually bothering to fact check anything regarding this topic in particular.
If you can't even keep track of arguments and topics that have been long done then there's really no point continuing this thread, we're just going to go in circles ad infinitum.

^ This doesn't indicate superior speed.

No shit, nobody said it has. You asked for a translation, you got one, this is made even worse because you said this exact same thing several posts ago and I told you then and there that line isn't meant to indicate speed in the first place.

This could easily refer to only his RtZ ability being superior, not his speed or even the speed of the skill.

No it ******* can't? You do realize that line in question is EXPLICITLY talking about his ATTACK, SPEED, RANGE, POTENTIAL, STAYING AND PRECISION. It's quite literally saying why his stats are listed as ******* NONE. And if it is talking about RTZ, then just means RTZ itself has the highest possible SPEED and RANGE and the like, hell, we already know it has the best Range and Staying of any ability so there's already that going for it.

Also BIG as he exists has not moved at infinite speed, and its frankly questionable if he can since his rating could be translated as unlimited to, and render literal "infinite" as hyperbole,

Ryu I swear to ******* God, at this point you're literally talking out your ass and it's becoming a pain in the ass in response (Edit: In hindsight this came off as way more rude then I wanted, sorry, but still, I literally explained and covered this in my first post, I don't understand why you're even bringing that back up, it's proven wrong). You are quite literally quoting a profile that is not only wrong but one I went out of my way to ******* PROVE is wrong with scans posted like a hundred posts ago. Why in the **** are you making claims like "oh well it could be translated as unlimited and thus is hyperbole", I'm about to not debate you at all because I shouldn't have to repeat them same exact shit over and over again because you haven't been paying attention to your own thread. you're wrong, your argument is based on something that's wrong, so drop it.

which is the conclusion the wiki came to already.

You mean when Efi added that bit of info without a CRT, thread or anything of the sort? That isn't the wiki accepting it. Not withstanding it is quote literally IMPOSSIBLE to translate it as anything else BUT infinite. Like dude, very first post I did, there's ******* scans and a few posts later I even posted the japanese scan where BIG's "copy speed" thing came from.

MiH doesn't even exist at that time, and hasn't been created when this was published, so can't be reasonably compared in the guide as they had no idea of him. So I don't see that as convincing proof that he has infinite speed since it could just refer to the potency of his ability compared to that of others, and at best you can say he could scale to BIG, who is varied and may or may not have the ability to move at literal infinite speed. I just did a little more digging btw, and JoJo-a GoGo was released in 2000 only going up to Part 5, while MiH didn't even appear till 2003, therefore it is impossible for the guide to consider MiH in its statements about GER being a superior stand, or having superior stats to other stands etc.

Yeah? That literally doesn't matter, because MIH still USES the Stand stats that GER can't even be quantified by. ******* EVERY Stand since that guide falls under it unless they outright don't have a stat listed. And newsflash, JoJoveller exists and their stats still exist and remain the same, literally nothing changed, hell in JoJoveller BIG and MIH are given the exact same stats in speed because they have the EXACT SAME SPEED. And what do you mean "they", you mean Araki? The singular person? Again, no it can't be talking about his ability in relation to others because the line is EXPLIVITLY SAYING WHY HIS STATS ARE NONE. Why is this so difficult to understand. At best he scales to literally every single Stand that is scaled using the stand rankings because they use the system that he can't be quantified by. And scales to BIG? Yeah, he does scale to BIG, a Stand that's listed as infinite no less than 5 times and even in the most recent guide is given the exact same Speed Stat as Made in Heaven because, lo and behold, they're both infinite. It's honestly baffling to me how you keep saying shit that has already been explained or are literal nonarguments to the point at hand.

I don't think a single secondary source comparison indirectly to BIG, who we don't even consider to have infinite speed on the wiki and who has never shown it is enough proof that GER has infinite speed, including with RtZ. Because GER is not compared to MiH, and only possibly BIG, I don't see a reason to give him infinite speed even with RtZ at this time, unless you can prove the skill itself is demonstrably infinite in speed.

JoJoveller exists and fyi, GER still has None stats, because he's still above every Stand, in the same book where MIH and BIG are given the exact same speed stat, because they're both infinite. (And mind you, a Stand can and has changed stats before some reason for another (Echoes, SP's Staying post Coma, etc), the fact GER's and the other two are in fact still the same means literally nothing has changed in regards to the statement and neither has any of their stats, of course stats can be whack as hell, but in this case it's straightforward because we know exactly what they mean and why they are the way they are).
You're acting like anything has actually changed in regards to the statement, if a Stand fits into the system at all, GER is above them, the stats don't suddenly ******* change when new Stands come out, it's a static system.
Who we don't consider to have infinite speed on the wiki? Are you really trying to use a profile that's demonstrably given false information as your point stated how many posts ago? I don't care what the profile says because it's wrong and needs to be fixed at a later date, and statements are fine in regards to BIG if it's not contradicted at all giving us no reason to believe otherwise and the other Stand given an infinite speed rating is demonstrably infinite, in which they're both given the same speed in the most recent guide, which I posted scans of in my very first post which makes me wonder why we're even having this conversation about things that have been answered long ago.
GER isn't just compared to MiH by virtue of still having None in the most recent guide and thus still being impossible to even begin comparing to other Stands, but he's outright above BIG who has the same speed ranking as MIH, in a book where all three, along with every other Stand in existence at the time of publishing (Part 8, early) are all featured. And don't "possibly BIG", all Stands, is BIG a Stand? Ok then he's above BIG. Like yeah, he isn't stated to be above BIG in particular, he's stated to be above ALL Stands, which kinda includes him, which still holds true to this day, well maybe, tbh we have no idea what WoU is looking like in some categories.
Going to be honest with you, every single argument you've made today has been something long discussed, is based on information that is still demonstrably false, arguments that have been debunked with actual scans and evidence ages ago, you have a clear lack of understanding of the context of a few quotes otherwise you wouldn't be arguing about how GER's stats being incomparable to anything else doesn't actually mean his stats, when the line in question is literally about his stats, among numerous other things. I can't debate with you if we're just going to retread old ground or you aren't particularly knowledgeable on the subject at hand. And demonstrably infinite? We have claims stating nothing can act against it (Which would include MIH anyway given that line came out after he was already a thing, not even getting into GER's most common noncanon thing is ******** on MIH, which is obviously noncanon, but you get the point), and everytime it's used it's conveyed as being instant. So like what do you actually want? There's very little saying RTZ isn't infinite but more then enough to say it is. Hell I'm not even arguing for GER itself to be infinite in case you missed that, just the ability.

 

[SSJRyu1]

It is theoretical since it never occurs but is a estimation on the upper limits of the stat, period, just like Beerus being able to destroy U7 is theoretical according to guides and narrator and whis, kais etc, or the Big bang in real life is theoretical according to science, or the flying spaghetti monster existing is theoretical since because why not maybe it exists, since none of those things have been directly observed. Albeit the main caveat is some theories have more logical evidence to prove that they are likely than others. Anything that is not directly demonstrated but is thought to be factual or possibly factual is theoretical by definition, so your wrong, it is theoretical whether it is an accurate analysis of the stat or not since it never happened.

I was going by what the wiki stated on BIG for their decision for his speed, which is varied, not infinite. If you do a Crt to change that to infinite speed you'd have an argument for BIG being treated as outright infinite by default here, but as it stands he is listed as varied on the wiki and no CRT has been done accepting him as infinite, so scaling from "varied" to GERs RtZ would not be infinite, change BIG first to infinite speed instead of complaining to me that the stats are wrong or GERs justification wont make sense as you are proposing it.

Does JoJoveller also contain the same statement that "the abilities of requiem transformed by the "Arrow" is incomparable with existing stands...."? If not the statement doesn't stand after part 5 since the future parts didn't exist when it was made, and I don't think you have sufficient proof with just BIG personally, but if it still exists in JoJoveller your argument is stronger since you could scale him to MiH.

As for Infinite speed for RtZ, again he would get it for scaling to BIG and MiH from a indirect statement in a secondary source if he gets it, and the two he is scaling from only have it under specific circumstances and are currently not accepted as outright infinite on the wiki (MiH is over time).

I feel if your going to give GER infinite speed based on that, first have BIG and MiH profiles changed to outright infinite with CRT's, so the scaling actually makes sense, and then if that comparison in the guide is enough for people apply it for GER as scaling from them then do so. If people aren't willing to give both them infinite, and GER gets it from scaling above them then he logically shouldn't have it from them, but if people are cool with them being infinite and it scaling, then the scaling would work as an explanation.

I'm glad you acknowledge that you are coming off as overly rude and defensive, but its like somebody saying they are sorry for bumping into you and then turning around and doing it again, it doesn't really make it better unless you at least try to stop. I get that everybody swears once in a while but your coming off as very hostile tbh.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Anyway, I am going to be off for the rest of the night, the main point of the thread is the current explanation on the wiki is wrong and minimum that needs to be changed as it does not qualify, everybody agrees on that.

As for RTZ getting infinite speed, you should try to apply infinite speed to BIG and MiH first if your going down that route, since scaling to them would be how RtZ gets it, as well decide if RTZ applies to GERs attack speed or if its unconscious, it matters since it would determine if its speed or a passive, and the very next thing will be does it scale to HAD speed, since that will literally be the next question and we all know it, so might as well figure it out and wrap the whole thing up neatly.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with SSJRyu, he explained exactly my thoughts.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think Chariot still holds more weight than SSJRyu1's Arguments.

 

[Chariot190]

It is theoretical since it never occurs but is a theory on the upper limits of the stat, period,

Do you not comprehend the difference between a THEORY and a STATEMENT. There is no ******* theory, it's a statement, a fact. This isn't like some black hole theory crafting shit. This is tantamount to being told a sportscar can go up to like 200kmph, sure we don't see it happen, but that doesn't change the fact it can and it's true. The statement isn't "Well it could possibly be infinite", no it's "This thing is infinite". You're outright twisting the **** out of the most simple straightforward thing in this thread, stop calling it a theory, you're wrong and continuously saying it just makes this whole thing even baffling.

just like Beerus being able to destroy U7 is theoretical according to guides and narrator and whis, kais etc, or the Big bang in real life is theoretical according to science,

Ok so you literally don't know what a theory actually is. Ignoring the fact you just argued for a Beerus downgrade, Beerus destroying a universe isn't a theory, we're outright told his ass can and we have no reason to believe otherwise, same here, we're told BIG can hit Infinite speeds and is even tied with MIH in speed in the most recent guide, this isn't a theory, it's literally just being told a fact. What is Goku being able to destroy a planet a "theory" too because he's never actually busted on before even though he scales to planet busters and we have no reason to assume statements saying he can are wrong now?

or the flying spaghetti monster existing is theoretical since because why not maybe it exists,

No, that's just you making shit up. Like do you hear yourself "This completely impossible thing that literally isn't true or doesn't exist is the same exact thing as Beerus being stated to destroy the universe or BIG being stated to be able to hit infinite speeds numerous times for both with no reason to believe otherwise".
I actually hope you're joking, if this is the types of arguments I have to deal with I'm out.

since none of those things have been directly observed. Albeit the main caveat is some theories have more logical evidence to prove that they are likely than others. Anything that is not directly demonstrated but is thought to be factual or possibly factual is theoretical by definition, so your wrong, it is theoretical whether it is an accurate analysis of the stat or not since it never happened.

I hope you realize these stats and statements are coming from an omniscient narrator and isn't subject to theories and the like. If we're told something in these guides, chances are it's true or the author literally just forgot or ****** up, and in this instance it's not the latter given it's been consistently portrayed to the be the same in every iteration and all coincide with each other to this very day. Am I wrong? Only if this was actually a theory. It aint though.

I was going by what the wiki stated on BIG for their decision for his speed, which is varied, not infinite. If you do a Crt to change that to infinite speed you'd have an argument for BIG being treated as outright infinite by default here, but as it stands he is listed as varied on the wiki and no CRT has been done accepting him as infinite, so scaling from "varied" to GERs RtZ would not be infinite, change BIG first to infinite speed instead of complaining to me that the stats are wrong or GERs justification wont make sense as you are proposing it.

And the wiki is ******* wrong, you know how stupid your argument is? In the same vain I could say "well the wiki says GER is infinite because the wiki says so", I quite bluntly don't give a **** what the wiki says, if it's wrong and I have proven it wrong in this VERY THREAD then it's wrong and this is the CRT for it given it directly involves him and has since the very start. And make a CRT for it? I plan on it, but news flash, the wiki isn't gospel and if I'm busy dealing with this shit then I clearly don't have time to make a CRT for that, if there's blatantly wrong misinformation that has been proven wrong in this very thread with hard concrete proof and scans then guess what? It's wrong so stop using it, that doesn't make you right, it quite literally does nothing but waste all our time because you're purposely using information you know is wrong to argue points.
And are you actually incapable of reading? "so scaling him from varied", no, we're scaling him off BIG's infinite stat which is QUITE LITERALLY INFINITE, it SAYS infinite, this isnt some fanon subjective shit, it's there plain as day for all to see. Hell it wouldnt even ******* matter if BIG is infinite, the fact the infinite stat for speed exists at all is reason enough. No offense but this is ******* pathetic, are you really pulling the bullshit "well this profile isnt right either so you cant use that".

Does JoJoveller also contain the same statement that "the abilities of requiem transformed by the "Arrow" is incomparable with existing stands...."? If not the statement doesn't stand after part 5 since the future parts didn't exist when it was made, and I don't think you have sufficient proof with just BIG personally, but if it still exists in JoJoveller your argument is stronger since you could scale him to MiH.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not. I honestly hope you're just arguing out of ignorance because this is stupid as ****. The statement still stands to this very day, why? Because news flash, GER STILL HAS NONE IN ALL STATS. The reason why GER is listed as None is because his stats are completely outright impossible to compare to the Stands that fit within the ranking system and those that use the system at all, in JoJoveller, a book that features every single Stand up to the point, published in 2013, almost a decade after MIH, GER still has his None stats, his stats didn't change because to this day he's still above every other Stand, and in this same book BIG and MIH have the EXACT SAME SPEED STAT. Are you incapable of reading? This is basic common reading comprehension and basic comprehension skills, if GER is still impossibly above all other Stands in every category, and both BIG and MIH are in the exact same book, and not only that but BIG and MIH have the exact same stats, then, ergo, GER is still above not only BIG but also MIH by virtue MIH being equal with something he has always been above but still being listed as None, which we know is strictly because he can't be given any other stat because he exceeds them. You don't think I have sufficient proof? Your whole argument as to why BIG doesnt count is because of a wrong ass wiki profile that was edited itself without a CRT of any kind and it being "just a theory" when you don't even know what the word actually means, or if you do, you fail to realize that isn't what this situation is. Like holy shit, MIH could have came out yesterday and it'd still be subject to this because if MIH so much as uses the stand system, it's below GER and if he shares his stats with any other Stand, he's below GER, as GER is above the Stand he shares that stat with.

As for Infinite speed for RtZ, again he would get it for scaling to BIG and MiH from a indirect statement in a secondary source if he gets it, and the two he is scaling from only have it under specific circumstances and are currently not accepted as outright infinite on the wiki (MiH is over time).

Stop right ******* there, we have absolutely no reason to discredit these lines in particular, and it's from the author himself. Dont even try and pull that shit. and scaling to under specific circumstances? Blatantly false, he's scaling to it straight up, the only issue is if it's him or RTZ that's scaling. And not currently accepted? Not an argument, if BIG's profile is wrong it's wrong and MIH being Infinite over time is a literal nonargument and the fact you keep saying that is absolutely astounding. MIH could take ten billion years to hit infinite speed, it wouldnt change anything, why? Because MIH is rated as Infinite in the guides and stats due to his peak speed, and said peak speed is something GER >.

I feel if your going to give GER infinite speed based on that, first have BIG and MiH profiles changed to outright infinite with CRT's, so the scaling actually makes sense,

I'm not trying to give GER infinite speed, just RTZ. First have the profiles changed? Mih's profiles is fine as is, he starts off as nonfinite then becomes infinite, changing it would be wrong, but unfortunately you fail to see why that literally doesn't matter, hell at this point I'm pretty sure you've failed to even see half the scans tbh. And BIG? Sure, eventually, he needs a lot of tweaking tbh but unfortunately you made this thread first and now we're dealing with this because you didn't actually bother to check, but then again, his profile is wrong, ok, so you want to actively use that wrong information all the while knowing it's explicitly wrong? That's just being dishonest.

and then if that comparison in the guide is enough for people apply it for GER as scaling from them then do so. If people aren't willing to give both them infinite, and GER gets it from scaling above them then he logically shouldn't have it from them, but if people are cool with them being infinite and it scaling, then the scaling would work as an explanation.

Dude people already accept MIH as infinite, and if someone didn't, they'd be full of shit. The issue is you acting like he has to be infinite AT ALL TIMES. He doesn't, he just needs to actually be capable of hitting infinite, in which he can and has on panel, in fact his universal reset doesn't even occur untill he hits said infinite speed, but you fail to realize that both BIG and MH share the exact same speed stat, a stat which GER is above, this has nothing to do with our views on them, it's literally "lol GER > Infinite speed rank" as it's an actual rank that exists. like dude, you're now trying to change profiles that have little if anything wrong with them like MIH because that's the only way this would make sense, when that's not the case at all. Ever read Flash comics? Basically the same situation here.

I'm glad you acknowledge that you are coming off as overly rude and defensive, but its like somebody saying they are sorry for bumping into you and then turning around and doing it again, it doesn't really make it better unless you at least try to stop. I get that everybody swears once in a while but your coming off as very hostile tbh.

Oh, I'm aware a few of the things I said there was more rude then I wanted, but I' still going to call out some shit if I see it, that's not going to change anytime soon. And I only said one thing that was actually hostile, to the point I even apologized, the rest isn't hostility, it's cussing and being blunt.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Gotta love seeing all these Bible entries.

 

[Chariot190]

Anyway, I am going to be off for the rest of the night, the main point of the thread is the current explanation on the wiki is wrong and minimum that needs to be changed as it does not qualify, everybody agrees on that.

As for RTZ getting infinite speed, you should try to apply infinite speed to BIG and MiH first if your going down that route, since scaling to them would be how RtZ gets it, as well decide if RTZ applies to GERs attack speed or if its unconscious, it matters since it would determine if its speed or a passive, and the very next thing will be does it scale to HAD speed, since that will literally be the next question and we all know it, so might as well figure it out and wrap the whole thing up neatly.

The current point of the thread? No it isnt? Where the **** have you been? That was discussed and talked about ages ago and has since moved on, just because you failed to pay attention doesn't mean that's actually the current point and hiding behind profiles that are wrong isn't going to help, if anything that's actually scummy as all hell. If you're the type of person to use and hide behind profiles that are blatantly false, and you KNOW it's wrong and even though you've been given entire imgur albums of scans, some of which I even personally screencapped myself and took photoes of irl, then that's on you.

Again, just because you, at this point, don't understand a single thing you're actually arguing against, because that's been made quite clear, hell I'm pretty sure you haven't even taken a look at the other scans barring the one posted today, doesn't mean we should lie about MIH's stats and speed and mechanics of it in the same way the current BIG profile is full of shit. MIH doesn't need to be changed, it's fine as is, the reason why GER scales is because both MIH and BIG, who have the exact same speed, have said speed as ******* INFINITE, that's their speed given in their rankings, guides and so on, because that's what their max speed is, and GER scales above said max speed. MIH is Infinite over time, that's how he works and that';s how he'll stay, but that has no bearing on GER scaling above his MAXIMUM SPEED as the ranking is his peak, not initial.
RTZ definitely isn't passive in full, but it's hard to say if's manual either, but, then again, I explained this hours ago, you're not getting an answer on this because there isnt one. And HAD DIO? Irrelevant, mostly because GER behaves differently in EOH so who the **** knows how that's gonna work and whatever the result this thread is aint gonna effect that one at all, that's a different issue entirely and tbh not one im gonna deal with.

 

[Chariot190]

In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something.



This part here isn't true at all, but then again, I can't even blame you for it.
Diavolo doesn't see the attacker in erased time just slowed down, he sees every action they would take, and have taken, (supposedly) simultaneously, overlapped at the same time. There's no real motion or movement in play, he's basically seeing the path of everything they would have done layed before him.
Though I definitely get the confusion in regards to this, the anime kinda ****** it completely (Funnily enough even the jojo wiki makes mention of the anime adaption potraying it differently then it should have) and the manga doesn't do the best job at portraying it consistently even if that's how it works in that iteration. Though this is of slight importance because what it actually does (in the manga at least) has zero effect on his speed.

Basically. When King Crimson deletes time, he sees every action someone would have taken in the deleted time, and he then acts accordingly, but the person in question never actually moves from where they began, what Diavolo sees could be described as numerous afterimages (Though in this case it would be "futureimages"), holograms, trails, take your pick, of everything someone will do in the timeframe deleted, but as said, there's not actually any movement going, especially not slow motion movements.
This is best shown in the initial appearance with Bruno. Where Diavolo literally says as much
"I can forecast the trails left by your movements, the trails of your future actions".
Put simply, Diavolo isn't actually watching someone move, he's basically seeing all the frames of a video layed before him, consider it like a how some fighting games have a frame by frame afterimage effect on some characters in training mode, but just in reverse.
In the example brought up as well, Bruno never actually moves at all, the location and movement he's in when the time erase begins and when it's about to end, he never actually moved.

Here's a breakdown of the first time he used it, as it's a decent example.

Here's some guide scans that mention it in passing (with one outright saying "hey it's just the trajectory that's being shown").



Actually debatable all things considered but at that point we'd have to argue the mechanics of how RTZ is activated and the mechanics of that too. And I don't anyone wants to go down that hole.



Tbh that just comes off as an appeal to me no offense, I honestly don't really care if something is perceived as more broken or not, I just care if the profile is accurate or a downgrade or upgrade is warranted, if not to any of those then I'm going to disagree.

Anyway, as for scan (or scans if we want to discuss the mechanics of King Crimson and RTZ as a whole, but I'm going to assume we aren't going to do that).

---

Anyway.
In JoJo-A-GoGo, which Giovanna posted fortunately, there's a section in direct reference to his stats (all stands in the book have one taking about their stats and why they are the way they are), that claims that the reason why GER's stats are listed as None and not something else, is because, there's no way that the Stand stats are even capable of quantifying his abilities with a scale that other stands use.
Of course one could say "It's talking about his ability RTZ", which is half true, the line is explicitly talking about all his stats, but it does make mention of RTZ, but that doesn't mean RTZ is what it's talking about in the first line nor is all his stats being None a representation of RTZ and not his own abilities (Attack Power is a blatant example of it being None, because it definitely aint talking about RTZ, given RTZ has zero offensive capability and the same guide says GER's attack power is the highest among all Stands and as such can even be considered the Ultimate Stand even disregarding RTZ).

To clarify what I said above about attack power, in the same guide it says that GER's attack output exceeds all existing Stands (which doesn't really do anything but clarify the "His stats straight up can't be quantified compared to other Stands, because they're simply above them" is legit given one such stat is outright stated to exceed every other Stand in the very same book).

Ergo, GER's speed > BIG and MIH as both are able to be quantified with the Stand stats, of which they're granted Infinity for various reasons and GER, on the contrary, GER is listed as None, because of being impossible to compare to existing Stands via superiority.

Do they start out infinite? Well BIG might depending on how you think it functions, but MIH takes awhile, but that doesn't actually change the fact that they can hit infinite and it can be quantified even still and their stats are them at their best, not initially, but GER's speed still can't.
The whole "MIH doesn't start out infinite so it doesn't count" is completely irrelevant, because his stats are talking about MIH when he does hit infinite, which is kinda why his speed is listed as "Infinite" in the first place.

Also I'd still argue the time erase feat is legit but that'd have to involve deconstructing and explaining the exact mechanics of King Crimson and it's interaction with time and the real world outside of its ability and I don't know if that's a hole we want to go down, hell I don't know if that's a hole even I wnat gto go down, it's a meme for a reason after all.

Now, I see it's being said that the None is referring to his ability, not his stats, which is half true, it's a mix of both. (Though Staying is usually the "Ability Stat").

---

Also, because it was mentioned, the profile saying that BIG's stat can be translated as Unlimited and thus could be hyperbole is really true.
The original japanese scans list BIG's speed, Staying and Range as all Infinite (Staying because it's immortal and can't die and will just resurrect itself or regen if killed and range because it isn't attached to a host and thus isn't bound to anything and can go as far or anywhere it wants). There's no possible way to translate it different, because the scans use the mathematical Infinity symbol that I'm sure we're all used to and are well aware of, and you kinda can't translate a symbol that is literally defined as being the mathematical universal symbol for infinity across most known languages to mean anything but Infinity. Tbh, I don't even know why that's on the profile, I couldn't find a CRT on it or even a Q&A about it.

Here's every iteration of BIG's stats that I could find, as well as a comparison. In case there was any doubt.

---

I guess I should also comment on the notion of "Diavolo said GER was just a power up in regards to stats". He did say that, but he said that while being bordering on denial and desperation and only after having being blitzed to an impossible degree (To the point he probably didn't even realize he was blitzed) and being unable to even react properly without aim dodging and precognizing the aftermath of a simple pebble he flicked.
Diavolo was going off GER being just a big power up off of GER casually flicking a pebble so hard he couldn't perceive it and it blew a hole through his hand and still had enough force to cave in the side of a building, all the while in denial and desperate at the fact he's suddenly at a huge disadvantage and trying to convince himself he still is winning and invincible. Spoiler warning, he learned the hard way he wasn't shit. GER is more than just a simple power up in regards to physicals is my point here, GE and GER aren't even in the same ballpark at the absolute worst.



In this situation, if we're told that a Stand is above every other Stand that it outright can't be quantified, it's above every other Stand. This isn't the same situation as "Star Platinum and Kiss both have an A in attack so that means they both are equally as strong", no, there's way more in play in regards to them or other stands, especially when stats are more like benchmarks and tiers kinda like how we use tiers, two tier 4's may both be tier 4 but not 100% equal, here it's just a simple "He's above them", ergo, he's above whatever they get. Straightforward.



That's extremely uncalled for if you're saying what I think you're saying.

---

Now, to list off/summarize the current points without actually getting into the clusterfuck that is King Crimson.

1. GER could act and react in erased time. (Not considered a valid feat anymore as per standards, though pretty sure it still checks out if you actually go through the effort of deconstructing how the ability works as a whole and how it interacts with the world, but ignore this point if you want).

2. Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't die was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph).

3. GER's stats are listed as "None", because it's impossible to measure its stats the way other Stands are quantified. Of course one could argue semantics in regards to this, but at the end of the day at least some facet of it is above MIH and BIG, as those two can be quantified, both of which are rated as Infinite due to their best capacity. Infinite is something that can be quantified but GER's speed can not. And yes, that line is explicitly talking about his stats and in the same guide it goes on to say that GER's attack output exceeds every Stand (Which only serves to clarify why his Attack stat is None and can't be measured, because it's to damn high).

4. For what it's worth, GER managed to casually blitz a bloodlusted MIH in the thing that shall not be named.

Regardless, even if you ignore the time erase moving feat, GER still scales above MIH and BIG as GER's stats are impossible to measure while MIH and BIG can, in which they're infinite. (And to clarify one final time, Big is a bit funky in how it functions but MIH is explicitly capable of reaching Infinite speeds and as such is granted an Infinite rating to convey that, as that's literally what it is).

At the very least, something is infinite, something about GER's speed is above every other Stand. Even if, for some reason, you want to say it doesn't apply to his physical stats, which is, best case scenario, subjective and open to interpretation, it would at the very least mean RTZ is infinite in speed if one wants to say it's strictly talking about his ability which I can understand the thinking behind even if I'm not entirely on board with it, but something is infinite.

The best I can do is "At least Massively FTL, likely higher" due to being completely imperceivable to what is essentially a God Tier speed Stand. And "Infinite with RTZ", due to, at the very least, that scaling above infinite Stands among other things even if you say it's strictly only talking about the ability.
Ergo, "At least Massively FTL, likely higher, Infinite with RTZ".
Best I can do here, though tbh I still think GER itself warrants Infinite as a whole for several reasons but eh, I really can't afford to argue this right now, bordering on outright can't argue (Im only gonna be able to respond like once or twice a day here if this drags on).

anyway.
Here's the scans I posted in one place.
BIG scans. (Mostly just a bunch of inifinte's, a comparison and some explanations).
King Crimson Bruno scene. (Minor breakdown of it in case it's confusing).
King Crimson trajectory forecast misc info (Nothing drastic, just a few scans).
MIH stats. (Literally just two scans).
The JoJo-A-GoGo GER scan (already posted).

Hell here's the scans and retreading old territory.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This man really just used Beerus not destroying a Universe on-screen to debunk Chariot. Wtf has this world come too?

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Chariot190 Clearly your not willing to talk like a civilized human being, so I am done discussing the topic with you until you stop swearing excessively and acting belligerent. My points still stand as they are above, and you can refer to them for my stance since it hasn't changed. But I will summarize one last time.

Using a secondary source of an artbooks stats that indirectly compares GER to BIG and MiH in general terms as proof for infinite speed is shaky as proof at best imo, and it hasn't even been agreed upon that BIG actually has infinite speed in the first place in a CRT yet either. So get them approved for infinite speed first since your trying to scale from them, then do a CRT for GER to scale to them, and if the staff agree that BIG and MiH are in fact infinite in speed, and that the guide is sufficient to scale GER above them then he deserves it, and the justification will be consistent and make sense. Sticking him with Infinite speed now, even for RtZ, and saying its because he scales to BIG and MiH will only cause confusion and spawn new revision threads if you don't do those other things first.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I agree with Chariot FRA

 

[Zel97]

Jeez i missed this thread

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I agree with Chariot FRA as I may have forgot to say that, also who's agreeing with Chariot or not?

 

[Zel97]

then do a CRT for GER to scale to them, and if the staff agree that BIG and MiH are in fact infinite in speed, and that the guide is sufficient to scale GER above them then he deserves it

I mean i can see why some people might think BIG isn't infinite(it is) but MIH's greatest feat was resetting the universe by accelerating himself to infinite speed. It was clear cut shown to us in the manga,the stand profile backs it up as well.

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah i agree with Chariot FRA

 

[Rikimarox2]

Same here.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Agree with Chariot FRA which means that I disagree with the downgrade FRA

 

[Veryfunnydidlaugh]

Holy crap what is this thread

Anyways, I agree with Chariot

 

[Elizhaa]

I go talk about some of the arguments; some of them are to the point where they go against this Site Rules below

• You can leave comments in the forums if you want to argue about a character's power or point out things that seem wrong, but don't be rude, obnoxious, unreasonable, or overly argumentative. Also, try to keep the forum threads on point, and to not veer off-topic.

If the situation gets out of hand, I am willing to take proper administrative actions.
These kinds of arguments are counterproductive; they should be stopped so we have a proper discussion.

On the thread topic, I will reply later.

 

[StrymULTRA]

At this point, I'd suggest to make this as new Speed Rating for GER:

Infinite with Gold Experience Requiem (Its Return to Zero worked within erased time, later GER was able to move and even talk. Stated from WoG to be way superior in statistics every canon Stand, including also Notorious B.I.G. and Made in Heaven at peak speed)

Same for his AP and Durability which shouldbe upgraded to High 8-C due to be way above stands as Star Platinum or The World for the same reason, with adding this in its AP/Dura description

"Stated from WoG to be way superior in statistics every canon Stand, including also as Stands as Star Platinum and The World"

 

[M3X_2.0]

Remove "WoG" and add the name of the databook or just "Stated to be the Ultimate Stand, having stats that surpass every other Stand, such as Star Platinum and The World". Shouldn't GER be above RHCP's 8-B rating?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shouldn't GER be above RHCP's 8-B rating?

No, because RHCP stats were reffering to its base.

 

[M3X_2.0]

RHCP one shot GER confirmed

 

[manu_zarri]

man I'm practically a week late, what happened?

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean i can see why some people might think BIG isn't infinite(it is) but MIH's greatest feat was resetting the universe by accelerating himself to infinite speed. It was clear cut shown to us in the manga,the stand profile backs it up as well.

I am iffy on BIG's case since it is not accepted as a solid infinite, on it valid. The infinite statement looks to be from a secondary source like a databook; I will be honest secondary source like databooks are largely judged on a case by case basis on the wiki so they don't always get accepted. I do agree with SSJRyu1 that the speed should probably be upgraded first to be a proper argument.

just a quick point since I saw it being mentioned as a counterpoint to the OP, moving in a timeless void isn't infinite speed anymore as stated on the Speed page.

1. Note 4:
   
   Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.
   
   So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

In my opinion, the Massively FTL+ part of Chariot's proposal could be fine.

I am neutral about return RtZ having infinite speed; though, I can see the merit via upscaling from Made in Heaven's highest speed.

If there is no major disagreement or counterarguments, Chariot's proposal would probably be accepted since Efficient looks to agree.

Though, it is probably best to get a least one more staff's input; so, I contacted Antoniofer on the matter.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The stats are not from the databook, we saw them in the manga, between the chapter or before the chapter begins. We saw the "None" for all GER stats and the "Infinite" for MiH's speed. What is from the Databook is the statement of the Ultimate Stand, above all the others.

 

[manu_zarri]

hm i will ask again, what what will happen? ger will no longer have infinite speed?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

His RTZ might get that rating, while the physical one by scaling above those with MFTL

 

[manu_zarri]

so Ger Physically MFTL/MFTL+ and Ger RTZ Infinite? hmm let me read this

 

[Chariot190]

No, because RHCP stats were reffering to its base.

Stats don't really matter when it comes to the attack power, GER is explicitly stated to have the highest attack power of all existing Stands, so he'd scale above RHCP anyway.
"Furthermore, it has an attack power that exceeds existing Stands, so it can be said to be the "Ultimate Stand".

Though that's better saved for the future AP thread, given RHCP may change a bit and GER's explicit attack superiority being the highest of all Stands is going to be brought up (Basically just a +1 on whoever has the highest attack output, which is pretty obvious even without the explicit quote given he tore apart King Crimson, a top tier physical Stand and can even rip holes through him just by casually flicking things).

---

I am iffy on BIG's case since it is not accepted as a solid infinite, on it valid. The infinite statement looks to be from a secondary source like a databook;

That's blatantly untrue tho? It's in the manga, the original japanese source material, I posted the scans, it just so happens to also be stated in every guide it's featured in, for a total of five times if memory serves, but the infinite speed for him originated from the manga. And accepted? I don't think you understand, BIG isn't even relevant, what matters is that Infinite exists for a rating, and GER>the ratings. BIG just happens to have the rating along side MIH and I explained above (quite a few times really) why that's relevant.

I will be honest secondary source like databooks are largely judged on a case by case basis on the wiki so they don't always get accepted. I do agree with SSJRyu1 that the speed should probably be upgraded first to be a proper argument.

Not a secondary source in regards to MIH or BIG. Again, BIG's speed honestly doesn't matter, all that matters is that it exists for a rating and GER the ratings, and MIH, a Stand with infinite speed (tied with BIG) and is rated as such, explicitly has demonstrably infinite speed so we know the rating means exactly what it says (MIH's main power is accelerating to infinite speed and resetting the universe via gravity, and he does indeed reach this speed in story and succeeds in resetting the universe, and he's already long been accepted as such on the wiki if the wiki's profiles are your concern).

just a quick point since I saw it being mentioned as a counterpoint to the OP, moving in a timeless void isn't infinite speed anymore as stated on the Speed page.

Nobody said it was, at least not by default anyway.

In my opinion, the Massively FTL+ part of Chariot's proposal could be fine.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, the only piece of contention is if he warrants a "likely higher", which imo him doing some Coldsteel the hedgehog shit and is consistently said to be unperceivable to everyone who looks at him attack should be reason enough.

I am neutral about return RtZ having infinite speed; though, I can see the merit via upscaling from Made in Heaven's highest speed from the databook.

MIH's highest speed isnt even from the databook, it's from the manga, it's whole power is accelerating till it hits infinite speed and resetting the universe by doing so effectively and his stats were given in the manga as well (Scans posted above as well), they dont originate from a databook, it comes from the main source material. Though I'm glad you can see some merit to it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Cool, 8-B GER is, so is TWOH, SPOH, Novel DIO and Kars as well

 

[Chariot190]

Cool, 8-B GER is, so is TWOH, SPOH, Novel DIO and Kars as well

Maybe, maybe not, as said RHCP itself may have to be reworked a tad but it should end with a direct increase to them regardless, but that should be saved for a thread that's more topical to that point. If you have Discord I can run a few things by you if you're interested for whenever the other thread happens (hoping within the next month).

 

[Elizhaa]

The stats are not from the databook, we saw them in the manga, between the chapter or before the chapter begins. We saw the "None" for all GER stats and the "Infinite" for MiH's speed. What is from the Databook is the statement of the Ultimate Stand, above all the others.

I see; MX3 and Chariot, I remove the part from my prior comment.

Chariot190, noted on the other points. I got to say the infinite rating is not accepted on the wiki is an issue for BIG's speed being used supporting evidence when I was referring to BIG Notorrious's case.

Made in Heaven's peak infinite speed being accepted on the wiki make it work better supporting arguments.

 

[Chariot190]

I got to say the infinite rating is not accepted on the wiki is an issue for BIG's speed being used supporting evidence when I was referring to BIG Notorrious's case.

Either or, BIG just adds more to the pile, MIH alone is sufficient, BIG just enforces it.
And yes, BIG's profile needs a decent amount of reworking, I brought that up in my first post this thread and several times since, not just for speed but for mechanics and a few abilities given scanning through the original raws, there's a discrepancy with the eng translations and what it actually says (I blame the old ass awful translations tbh, Part 5 has gone through some ******* bad translations) so a rework is definitely needed.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think I can see your points.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think I can see your points.

So, the thread results are:

• Updating the Speed of GER with adding to his speed rating to this; (Its Return to Zero worked within erased time, later GER was able to move and even talk. Stated in the JOJO A-GO!GO! Databook to be way superior in statistics every canon Stand, including also Notorious B.I.G. and Made in Heaven at peak speed)
• GER will be High 8-C with adding this in his AP/Dura description: "Stated in the JOJO A-GO!GO! Databook to be way superior in statistics every canon Stand, including also as Stands as Star Platinum and The World"
• Same with The World Over Heaven, Star Platinum Over Heaven, The World Ultimate of both DIO's and Kars' which will be High 8-C for scaling above GER.

 

[Eficiente]

That's false though? GER probably did simply attack his hand on purpose, why do I say that?
Because even in the vision of Epitaph, his hand was attacked, not his head, not his chest, his hand. Diavolo himself even says "I saw the hole appear in my hand which let me avoid the brunt of the attack" (He also goes on to say he didn't see the moment GER actually made a movement to attack, again, confirming he outright can't even see him move).
Ger never aimed for anywhere but his hand, not in the vision, not outside of it. And why would he? He hadnt yet gave Diavolo his monologue, which is something GER actively wanted to do.

Well, this shouldn't prove anything as Epitaph shows the end result of everything, KC's hand wouldn't have blocked it if it wasn't for GER attacking, but it's kind of a paradox as the Diavolo in the vision acted due to something he could have only known due to Epitaph, which he doesn't know. We also saw KC block it after GER made the attack and Diavolo said that he can "barely dodge his attacks".

I mean, you aren't wrong, GER itself obviously didn't actively showed a twisted future or fake one or something, nothing says or implies he has that power, but fate did, if Epitaph shows something, that thing will happen no matter what, it's fate, preordained, even if it makes no ******* sense. Because that's happened a LOT.
Though, I'd like to point out that Epitaph was still showing that future even after time resumed and even when being beaten to a pulp. Which should be saved for another time but it's interesting and points to several possible things.

On the latter, Diavolo was the same after "time" turned back, so it makes sense for him to still have the same precog (as much sense as him insulting Giorno as GER is hitting him anyway). My point still stands on the former then?

That's actually not true, when GER attacked Diavolo (I'm assuming when you meant he begin pummeling his ass into the ground), it's implied directly after that nobody really followed what happened at all, Trish/Mista say directly after the pummel say "I didn't really see or understand what it just did", but either way".
That's right, Mista literally says he didn't actually see what GER did or understand why Diavolo got launched into a river, but he doesn't give a shit, he's just happy it's over.
And yes, the only thing Mista could possibly be referring to is the pummel, as everything else happened in erased time or never happened because RTZ, obviously I shouldn't have to explain why Mista saying "I didn't see what happened" isn't referring to something he wouldn't even know occured or gas zero recollection of, to him, all he knows is GER became a thing, he flicked something at Diavolo, Giorno proceeded to approach Diavolo, then the thing that put Diavolo out, then Mista says "I didn't even see what happened but neat he's a bloody pulp in a river now". So in regards to them following GER's movements? That never happened and it's even said they couldn't.

Point taken, but Mista was able to tell KC was helpless against GER, somewhat implying he saw how he defeated Diavolo, him not really seeing it could refer to it a precise way, let alone what really went down.

KingCrimson threatening Giorno?
Do you mean when he says "You goddamn kid!".
GER stopped attacking in that scene? He stopped to say something to him one final time, in the moment GER stopped attacking to say his thing, King Crimson tried to retaliate back, but was promptly put back to being pimped before he could even even get half a moment into his retaliation. I wouldn't say King Crimson making a remark when the character in question, GER, purposely stopped attacking him, to mean King Crimson is even slightly comparable especially when King Crimson isn't even remotely fast enough to even get to properly throwing his strike before GER says "lol nice try", well not litterally but you get my point.
I should also mention that when King Crimson says that and Ger stops to talk to him, he only does so in response to Diavolo erasing time again, that whole exchange takes place in deleted time.
It's hard to get across in the manga outside of the colored panels but it's easy to tell in the anime, though I should add onto that, King Crimson moving GER's hand out of the way or Diavolo looking back at him and summoning KC is anime only, that isn't depicted in the manga at all. In the manga it's a total of 3 panels.

Point taken again, I knew the anime messed up that but just meant the "You goddamn kid!" and arm(s) movement. But I don't see that happening due to GER stopping as what 100% happened, just a likely take.

Also you left out GER's pst nothin personel feat, where while King Crimson is mid punch, he could come out of his shell, grab and heal Giorno, move around Diavolo to behind him, then float in the air, all while Diavolo is looking dead at him and Giorno's body, in the span it took to Disvolo's fist to hit the shell, at minimum, though likely significantly less given he did so in complete view of Diavolo and he didn't even realize GER did all that right in front of him.
That's textbook definition of being ludicrously higher then someone else, that sequence alone warrants it, even just comparing the distance the punch would have moved to where GER moved would suggest at least a difference in the double digits based on distance alone, of course we can't quantify it without calc stacking (and even then, he did it all without being perceived) and I'm pretty sure King Crimson could perceive it even if just a blur if the timeframe was his own punch length, mind you GER did this with seemingly the utmost casual of efforts.

I knew it made him faster into MFTL, but not, say, MFTL+. That all said looking at what we say rates as higher I don't I oppose GER having it in its speed, as it doesn't imply Infinite or MFTL+ speeds. Although I think it's kinda redundant with the "At least" too.

Can you propose a wording with evidence to go in the profile? The stuff from the guidebook should be a link into Imgur with the name of the guidebook somewhere there, its og Jap. text in the description, and then a translation below it. Just for good faith so that people may always be able to make its own translation even though we trust what we got.