GERs Speed is outdated

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We can discuss ger's new abilities after this thread if need be. Looks like we're close to conclusion already. Anymore uncertainty or disagreement or are we done here?
 
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Maybe, though, you do realize that if GER had fate hax resistance, that actually supports King Crimson tagging and him not being infinite rather then it discrediting the Epitaph scene right?
It actually does, since GER was resistant to Fate Hax, and thus can freerly oppose Epitaph's predictions.
Also something being casual doesn't equal infinite speed, it's not that simple.
I never stated so, is a supportive feat.
We can discuss ger's new abilities after this thread if need be. Looks like we're close to conclusion already. Anymore uncertainty or disagreement or are we done here?
This is the thread to discuss how GER dealt to KC's ability.
 

Damage3245

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I'm pretty sure the conclusion at the moment is:

"At least MFTL physically, Infinite with RTZ".
 
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We can discuss ger's new abilities after this thread if need be. Looks like we're close to conclusion already. Anymore uncertainty or disagreement or are we done here?
It seems like Efi is gonna need to stand her ground on the epitaph thing first.

I know what I'm advocating for, even if I don't like it, it's the best solution and adheres to every issue while still remaining accurate to the best extent we can get it without venturing into assumptions and the like. But I guess that's no exactly so simple.
 
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"At least MFTL physically, Infinite with RTZ".

I feel like we should add

"Likely higher physically"

Since well, GER blitzed KC twice. The blitz was so horrible KC was basically frozen in comparison to GER. KC is one of the fastest stand in the series.
 
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It actually does, since GER was resistant to Fate Hax, and thus can freerly oppose Epitaph's predictions.

Wrong, GER only managed to resist the prediction through the use of RTZ, the prediction was still seemingly going to happen regardless of what GER before RTZ came into effect, in fact, RTZ activated the while King Crimson was tossing the blow that was meant to gouge out his heart, which means two things, either GER was absolutely fated to be dealt that blow and that it may not be fair to say the scene means he's truly a certain speed as fate could have just fucked him, or GER wasn't bound by fate and the single argument that I can think that opposes everything about this is moot, because the Epitaph fate manip didnt effect him, meaning, GER simply was just not fast enough to defend in that situation.
It's one or the other, he can't both have base infinite but also resist fate, as both effect this scene and effects what actually happened.

I never stated so, is a supportive feat.

It's only supportive if the thing it's supporting aint suspect.

This is the thread to discuss how GER dealt to KC's ability.

But is it really. Him having some resistances or not don't effect the speed of anything.
 
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I feel like we should add

"Likely higher physically"

Since well, GER blitzed KC twice. The blitz was so horrible KC was basically frozen in comparison to GER. KC is one of the fastest stand in the series.
I'm assuming Damage just typed it quickly, everyone in this thread agreed upon, even Efi, that a likely higher is fair and warranted.
Also yeah, pretty sure King Crimson is top 3 fastest non infinite speed stands, hell, he may even be second or tied with it.
 
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Wrong, GER only managed to resist the prediction through the use of RTZ, the prediction was still seemingly going to happen regardless of what GER before RTZ came into effect, which means two things, either GER was absolutely fated to be dealt that blow, or GER wasn't bound by fate and the single argument that I can think that opposes everything about this is moot, because the Epitaph fate manip didnt effect him, meaning, GER simply was just not fast enough to defend in that situation.
The last part is an headcanon, GER perfectly was able to, but, as you said, he was casual asf, he just wanted to fuck with Diavolo, and just used the ability to mess with him, nothing else.
 
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Seems correct enough. If there's no more disagreement then we can close this
Strym and Darkness still have some disagreements, like, as much as I would fucking love to finish this shit and get back to dying and take a break, I wanna be fair here.
 

Damage3245

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The last part is an headcanon, GER perfectly was able to, but, as you said, he was casual asf, he just wanted to fuck with Diavolo, and just used the ability to mess with him, nothing else.
Your own post seems like headcanon to me.
 
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Your own post seems like headcanon to me.
How Giorno dealed with opponents is an headcanon now? Look at Melone, Cioccolata or Ghiaccio, he always wanted to make them suffer in the end of the fight, and Diavolo was the same, Giorno was like a cat torturing the mouse before finishing it for good.
 
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The last part is an headcanon, GER perfectly was able to, but, as you said, he was casual asf, he just wanted to fuck with Diavolo, and just used the ability to mess with him, nothing else.

Dude, that's literally what we see happen. How is something we outright see in the process of happening headcanon?
Did King Crimson throw a punch at Giorno?
Was that punch the same punch that in the vision, we see gouge out his heart?
Was GER not doing absolutely anything to defend himself or Giorno?
Did Diavolo claim the dude to the extreme circumstances he was just barely faster on the draw.
Was the only reason we know that prevented that vision from coming to pass due to RTZ kicking in right before the punch landed?

If all of those are true, and we say that GER does resist fate, then the excuse of him being bound to fate to have that play out is void and null now, it's just him not being able to defend Giorno in time, because fucking around or not, he obviously didnt want Giorno to get his heart ripped out and that's what was seemingly about to happen before RTZ kicked in before King Crimson could finish that blow.
His ability doesn't have the capability to show fake visions and the like so...
 

Damage3245

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How Giorno dealed with opponents is an headcanon now? Look at Melone, Cioccolata or Ghiaccio, he always wanted to make them suffer in the end of the fight, and Diavolo was the same, Giorno was like a cat torturing the mouse before finishing it for good.
Giorno's past experience and fighting style is irrelevant. He's not even aware of RTZ, so he can't be using it to mess with Diavolo like that.
 
None on all stats should be for physicals, cant be talking of RTZ, attack power and precision dont fit RTZ at all

Even in non canon GER is the only one standing up to MIH, ASB and JJ novel and not cuz of the ability
 
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How Giorno dealed with opponents is an headcanon now? Look at Melone, Cioccolata or Ghiaccio, he always wanted to make them suffer in the end of the fight, and Diavolo was the same, Giorno was like a cat torturing the mouse before finishing it for good.
Yes, GER did indeed fuck with Diavolo, he made him suffer, he even went out of his way twice to shit talk him and to call him out. And gave him a poetic end that's the pinnacle of suffering and vengeance to prove a point.
But fucking with Diavolo doesnt mean "Im going to let this dude punch out my user's heart which I demonstrably prove is a thing i do not want to happen panels later". And he cant control what Epitaph shows Diavolo so, that's out of GER's control.
 
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Giorno's past experience and fighting style is irrelevant. He's not even aware of RTZ, so he can't be using it to mess with Diavolo like that.
The whole GER speech already explains why GER didn't react before, is because he wanted to show how Diavolo's actions were a Truth that will never be reached, he'd killed Diavolo if he wanted to, but he didn't because of the reasons I said.
 
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But fucking with Diavolo doesnt mean "Im going to let this dude punch out my user's heart which I demonstrably prove is a thing i do not want to happen panels later". And he cant control what Epitaph shows Diavolo so, that's out of GER's control.
It does tbh, GER wanted to show to Diavolo how his actions will never happen, nothing else, the whole speech done after the RtZ activation proves it.
 
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None on all stats should be for physicals, cant be talking of RTZ, attack power and such dont fit RTZ at all

Even in non canon GER is the only one standing up to MIH, ASB and JJ novel and not cuz of the ability
"Should" isnt an argument, especially when we know, for an absolute FACT that isn't the case and something that needs top be true. Yes, Attack power doesnt fit RTZ at all, and the same guide explains why GER's attack is so high, and? I explained above, multiple times, in great detail, it doesnt matter, at all.
I can even post the scan of Araki himself saying that the speed of Stand can and has referred to a Stand's ability's speed. And that's without getting into the fact that GER's Permeance stat is also clearly about RTZ along with the range of it.
Plus RTZ demonstrably being > GER, at least to a degree.
Like ngl, as long as the Epitaph sequence exists, base infinite is flawed, and if it didnt exist, it'd be a 50/50 coin toss at best.

In ASB GER is able to do so because of his ability so like.
And JJ Giorno is getting a profile later.
 
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It does tbh, GER wanted to show to Diavolo how his actions will never happen, nothing else, the whole speech done after the RtZ activation proves it.
Yes, he shows him his actions will never happen, but he cant show him a fake future or a fake made up fate.
That vision for all intents and purposes WAS going to happen, and it would have happened exactly as we see it if not for RTZ kicking Diavolo in the dick and saying sike bitch.
You're right in that GER made a point to show Diavolo that his actions hold no meaning and he won't reach "reality", but that's in reference to RTZ basically saying no future for you, opposed to the vision itself being something that wasn't going to happen, outside of RTZ.
 
No, ASB has RTZ having a gray like circle where anyone nearby it gets nulled its not passive or anything

When Pucci obtains MIH all move in slow motion, Giorno with GER moves as if nothing happened, as long as GER form doesnt run out, its not cuz of the ability
 
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No, ASB has RTZ having a gray like circle where anyone nearby it gets nulled its not passive or anything

When Pucci obtains MIH all move in slow motion, Giorno with GER moves as if nothing happened, as long as GER form doesnt run out
Dude, Giorno himself is uneffected by it too, not just GER. You wanna argue that Giorno himself has the same speed as his Stand?
Exactly, as soon as GER goes away, Giorno is back to being effected too. Because the reason why was due to RTZ saying no (Ignoring RTZ behaves differently in ASB so it can work in the form of a fighting game). case and point, RTZ in the game being portrayed as a counter move with a gray circle aoe, which is CLEARLYnot how it works in canon, not even a slight resemblance.

The notion is right, in that GER>MIH, but the reason why differs drastically in everything that interaction exists, and in this case is because of nulling for ASB.
And hell, the reason why GER>MIH in the novel is different from even that, in that case that one actually IS due to physical speed, but he's getting his own profile later anyway due to being fundamentally different to canon.

I said all this way earlier in the thread, I brought these up.

Also I dont think you realize, as long as the epitaph vision exists, this argument is null, because we KNOW he isnt infinite, the reasons he could have scaled to it are rendered invalid and it's just RTZ scaling, you can say this or that, and while in a vacuum they are good points, the epitaph feat basically says no while also, unfortunately, said reasons arent actually enough on their own to say it's wrong. The only absolute here is that RTZ at least is infinite, that's the singular absolute with the evidence we have.
 
And epitaph vision doesnt deny infinite speed, fate will be manipulated for the win to him no matter what, unless you got a power which can counter it

Whitesnake had only for speed and thats it, rest is the physicals and staying isnt for the ability, else SP in part 4 with 2 seconds having A yet SP in part 6 with 5 seconds has E makes no sense
 
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Yes, he shows him his actions will never happen, but he cant show him a fake future or a fake made up fate.
That vision for all intents and purposes WAS going to happen, and it would have happened exactly as we see it if not for RTZ kicking Diavolo in the dick and saying sike bitch.
You're right in that GER made a point to show Diavolo that his actions hold no meaning and he won't reach "reality", but that's in reference to RTZ basically saying no future for you, opposed to the vision itself being something that wasn't going to happen, outside of RTZ.
Simple, GER resists Fate, nothing else.

Him being superior to MiH in speed in base is even proved from both effortlessly blitzing Diavolo more times and from the fact that he was casual af the whole time.

Him getting both Resista to Fate Hax due to be able to oppose his pre-written one + infinite speed in base is supported from both Manga and Databook.
 
Its a game which can do only so much to portray a series in the form of gameplay, so giorno moving with him doesnt debunk it at all, afaik you cant independently control the stand and not the user, even with stand out, they still have both perform basic stuff unless its something specific to the stand
 
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And epitaph vision doesnt deny infinite speed, fate will be manipulated for the win to him no matter what, unless you got a power which can counter it

Whitesnake had only for speed and thats it, rest is the physicals and staying isnt for the ability, else SP in part 4 with 2 seconds having A yet SP in part 6 with 5 seconds has E makes no sense
It does, I explained why, this isnt really difficult to understand. And yes, in case you missed it, we're about to argue for his ass to have fate resistance (and some peopel have been meaning to do so for like over a year now) so that excuse gets thrown out the window, because him being bound by fate no longer applies, he simply wasnt fast enough.

Do you want a comprehensive list of every stand that has had stats for themselves as well as their ability in the same sheet? Because it's WAY more then Whitesnake. Whitesnake is just the most blatant example because Hirohiko Araki has sat down and explained that in depth with like a full two paragraphs of explanation and confirmation.

SP in Part 4 doesn't have an A, Stand stats came into existence in Part 5, the only SP with any stats are Part 3 (given in post) and Part 6 early and end. Part 6 SP's stat change was changed due to him needing a cooldown for timestop lasting several seconds and the ability itself lasting for a small amount of time (5 seconds a pop).
 
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Its a game which can do only so much to portray a series in the form of gameplay, so giorno moving with him doesnt debunk it at all, afaik you cant independently control the stand and not the user, even with stand out, they still have both perform basic stuff unless its something specific to the stand
It actually does dude, also you really useing fucking ALL STAR BATTLE as your main argument now? Like come the fuck on. You want to even bring that up? Then actually use what we see and treat it as it is, don't start inserting a bunch of hypotheticals in play here to suit your argument. The game isn't main canon, it's based on it, but only so far as people at bandai taking their own interpretations on things and trying to make a cool fighter out of that. the notion of GER>MIH is correct, but the why is wrong and the way it plays out isnt the way youre acting like it is, made even worse as your other example you used is a complete 180 of the ASB example, your examples lowkey contradict each other.

Simple, GER resists Fate, nothing else.
And if he did then just means he wasn't fast enough to defend.
Him being superior to MiH in speed in base is even proved from both effortlessly blitzing Diavolo more times and from the fact that he was casual af the whole time.

Did you just say him blitzing a MFTL is proof of him being superior to something literally infinitely above that? That's, not how it works, casual or not. Him blitzing a MFTL will NEVER be Infinite by itself, there needs to be actual supporting evidence, and there is, but said evidence is a 50/50 at best in proving him itself to be infinite and then couple that with an actual example of him not being infinite and then 50/50 becomes a 0 and we know what it refers to now.

Him getting both Resista to Fate Hax due to be able to oppose his pre-written one + infinite speed in base is supported from both Manga and Databook.

It isnt, I'm LOOKING at guide book right, I looked through the scans, I even went through the original japanse manga to see what's said exactly in reference to every single interaction. It's not supported, it's made extremely dubious by the manga and the guides dont clarify.
Not how it works, like it or not, GER was going to be tagged by King Crimson, yes he's way fucking faster, but a Hypersonic+ character can still be hit by a bullet if the bullet started off literally touching them from behind as a surprise, hell, you ever read Flashpoint? That's an example and it's not even as bad as this one but the notion still stands. The infinite base speed is directly CONTRADICTED by the manga and the guidebook just says SOMETHING is infinite, it doesn't say specify and given we know that RTZ>GER and can even act when he can't, and that speed can and has referred to ability speed, why is this even an argument?

The only argument that actually needs to be made is why the Epitaph scene doesnt count, all this other shit doesn't matter, I'd wager to say it's even objectively wrong, and just an fyi, if we give him fate resistance, the only argument I cant think of to say otherwise fails to work. You can't have it both ways here.
Best case scenario is, even if we ignore Epitaph's scene, there's only a 50/50 he scales anyway as said, the scaling doesn't even clarify if it's explicitly his physical speed so best case scenario it's a coin flip, but due to the existence of RTZ outright reacting to something GER couldnt, and seemingly without consent all the while GER has a anti-feat that isn't contradicted by higher feats (because blitzing a dude aint a contradiction to it), I'm inclined to say that, it's likely RTZ being referred to. We went over this early on in the thread, idk why we doing it again.

Best I can do is toss out the planned fate resistance and say at best it's a 50/50, but thinking on it, I'd rather deal with things we know for certain rather then assumptions and guesswork.
 
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Damage3245

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Just as there are feats of GER being superior to Diavolo/KC, there are also some feats of Diavolo/KC being able to keep up with GER to some extent.

1) Although GER's attack was FTE to Diavolo, he could still slightly dodge it thanks to his precog. If GER's attack was infinite speed, Diavolo would not be able to slightly dodge it.

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

3) Diavolo foresees himself being just slightly faster and being able to pierce Giorno. Epitaph isn't just going to show Diavolo something that is impossible physically. He can't see himself blowing the planet with a punch for example and then force it to happen due to fate hax.

We've gone over some of this already, I just wanted to reiterate these points for why I think we shouldn't say GER is infinitely fast physically.

Should GER still be rated superior to Diavolo overall? Yes, I think so, but not infinitely superior to him.
 
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Did you just say him blitzing a MFTL is proof of him being superior to something literally infinitely above that? That's, not how it works, casual or not. Him blitzing a MFTL will NEVER be Infinite by itself, there needs to be actual supporting evidence, and there is, but said evidence is a 50/50 at best in proving him itself to be infinite and then couple that with an actual example of him not being infinite and then 50/50 becomes a 0 and we know what it refers to now.
Nice strawmanning, I said that is a S U P P O R T I V E feat for his Infinite speed, not that is Infinite Speed from just it
The only argument that actually needs to be made is why the Epitaph scene doesnt count, and just an fyi, if we give him fate resistance, the only argument I cant think of to say otherwise fails to work. You can't have it both ways here.
We perfectly can, since GER was fucking casual all the time, do you expect a character one-shotting the opponent if it wanted to toy with it?

Just as there are feats of GER being superior to Diavolo/KC, there are also some feats of Diavolo/KC being able to keep up with GER to some extent.

1) Although GER's attack was FTE to Diavolo, he could still slightly dodge it thanks to his precog. If GER's attack was infinite speed, Diavolo would not be able to slightly dodge it.

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

3) Diavolo foresees himself being just slightly faster and being able to pierce Giorno. Epitaph isn't just going to show Diavolo something that is impossible physically. He can't see himself blowing the planet with a punch for example and then force it to happen due to fate hax.

We've gone over some of this already, I just wanted to reiterate these points for why I think we shouldn't say GER is infinitely fast physically.

Should GER still be rated superior to Diavolo overall? Yes, I think so, but not infinitely superior to him.
Still doesen't debunk GER being casual until he blitzed Diavolo in the last 2 MUDA Rushes.
 

Damage3245

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Still doesen't debunk GER being casual until he blitzed Diavolo in the last 2 MUDA Rushes.

You mean this? It's hard to say that this even qualifies as a blitz seeing as Diavolo cannot move.
 
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Nice strawmanning, I said that is a S U P P O R T I V E feat for his Infinite speed, not that is Infinite Speed from just it
"Him being superior to MiH in speed in base is even proved from both effortlessly blitzing Diavolo more times and from the fact that he was casual af the whole time."
No you didn't? That sentence is worded as an absolute.

We perfectly can, since GER was fucking casual all the time, do you expect a character one-shotting the opponent if it wanted to toy with it?

And Star Platinum is FTE to some super fast motherfuckers and can oneshot characters, casually. That isn't an argument. Like it or not, there's an anti-feat that exists that proves the 50/50 shot in the dark saving grace isnt talking about him. It sucks, it really does, but there's simply not enough canonical evidence but rather even a canonical disprovement. Also him one-shotting doesnt matter, it's more like "not letting yourself get your heart ripped out".

Still doesen't debunk GER being casual until he blitzed Diavolo in the last 2 MUDA Rushes.
Tbf that was casual too, it's just it being casual doesnt invalidate the antifeat.

You have become the very thing you swore to destroy. You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the GER lowball, not join them. You were to bring balance to the jojo verse, not leave it in the downplay.

I'm trying to be fair to both sides here, and while I'd love to keep GER as infinite, and I even personally think he qualifies to a good extent myself, the actual evidence we have to work with simply isnt enough to say he himself is concretely that and even if I believe he is there isn't enough to actually say he is, I want the profiles to be accurate to the best of our abilities without relying on assumptions. The fact the best we have is a 50/50 and a anti-feat doesn't bode well, I'm not sure what you want me to say, sorry I guess.
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You mean this? It's hard to say that this even qualifies as a blitz seeing as Diavolo cannot move.
To be fair, Mista actually goes on to say he didn't even see GER defeat Diavolo and had no idea how he was beaten, so that probably did actually blitz him, given Mista is surprisingly one the most perceptive members of the group.
 
Just as there are feats of GER being superior to Diavolo/KC, there are also some feats of Diavolo/KC being able to keep up with GER to some extent.

1) Although GER's attack was FTE to Diavolo, he could still slightly dodge it thanks to his precog. If GER's attack was infinite speed, Diavolo would not be able to slightly dodge it.

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

3) Diavolo foresees himself being just slightly faster and being able to pierce Giorno. Epitaph isn't just going to show Diavolo something that is impossible physically. He can't see himself blowing the planet with a punch for example and then force it to happen due to fate hax.

We've gone over some of this already, I just wanted to reiterate these points for why I think we shouldn't say GER is infinitely fast physically.

Should GER still be rated superior to Diavolo overall? Yes, I think so, but not infinitely superior to him.
1)He saw the hole in the hand and had his hand already ready then the beam shot, he didnt see anything else, aim dodging doesnt debunk it

2)GER just played along with him thinking he had a chance, only to crush his last hope left and rushing him twice before having the death loop take care of it

3)able to manipulate fate you sorta can have impossible stuff happen, combined with another ability that makes sure they dont know of it till its too late
 
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At this point, what about to "At least MFTL to Infinite physically, Infinite with Return to Zero"?

It covers both cases
 
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At this point, what about to "At least MFTL to Infinite physically, Infinite with Return to Zero"?

It covers both cases
I'd have been fine "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with RTZ".
Possibly due to the fact that best case scenario, it's still a 50/50 so not actually concrete and just guessing.
But due to the Epitaph sequence, that 50/50 becomes a zero, he's demonstrably proven not to scale to Infinite physically, implying as such is dishonest regardless of wording.
The only way i could see this working is if we toss the fate resistance out the window and say Epitaph fate fucked GER to get hit, and we take the 50/50 and assume best case scenario and a big ass blog about time erase and how it interacts with reality is written (I aint doing that, more effort than it's worth), but that sadly isnt possible here.
 
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Wait so if rtz>ger. Are we implying that rtz is passive in canon? I mean if interpreted it right, the argument was that ger was affected by KC but not rtz. Therefore ger was frozen as well,rtz activated on its own.
 
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Wait so if rtz>ger. Are we implying that rtz is passive in canon? I mean if interpreted it right, the argument was that ger was affected by KC but not rtz. Therefore ger was frozen as well,rtz activated on its own.
I mean, that's what Efi says, hit her up on that one, I quite while I was ahead on that front.
Though, as i said a few times this thread, personally I'm under the belief that RTZ is both automatic and manual. In that it can take actions into its own hand, but if GER wanted he could manually use it as well if he wanted. (Actually, think of it like BTD, Kira can use it manually, but it can also go on auto-pilot if it wants). Though that's just my interpretation of it, we're never actually told outright if that's the case.
Though this doesn't inherently change the end result, if you have a gun, even if you can pull the trigger and fire it manually or if it'd do it itself at times, it doesnt change what speed it is, just how it comes to be.
 

Damage3245

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Nothing stated that Diavolo couldn't move, GER didn't show paralysis related powers whatsoever
A different kind of "cannot move" to paralysis. Diavolo did and could move, but he would be rewound back to zero leaving no option for him other than to be punched by GER. Hence why he says he hasn't moved from the start.
 

Antoniofer

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I believe it's too late to give some argument that hasn't been discussed in previous comments, but gotta leave the cards in the table.

KC's time erasure is not depicted as some feat related to speed, erased time is not even like time stop, so "moving" there is neither a speed feat; there were an instance, I think with Sex Pistol but not remember quite, where the projectiles pretty much moved iin erased time, so movement is still possible, at the end its 5 second event that actually happened (this is more obvious with the anime scenes, take it or not).

As for MiH being infinite in speed, inot quite, it accelerate time and he accelerate along with it, exponentially growing, when it reaches infinite, the universe resets. MiH's Stat block saying infinite? Consider the following: its wrong, or at least misinterpreted, there were instances where Pucci being infinite in speed could have been pretty useful, and yet nothing (take it or not), Jotaro even stopped him in time when trying to look for hi shortly after obtaining MiH.
 
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If its like this, imma agree on it
But dude, that's ignoring the evidence, that's not even how that rating works.
Best case scenario itd mftl etc, possibly infinite as even in the best case scenario, even if you purged the epitaph sequence, we wouldnt know if GER was scaling to infinite itself 100%, only that something is.
 
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I'd have been fine "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with RTZ".
Possibly due to the fact that best case scenario, it's still a 50/50 so not actually concrete and just guessing.
But due to the Epitaph sequence, that 50/50 becomes a zero, he's demonstrably proven not to scale to Infinite physically, implying as such is dishonest regardless of wording.
The only way i could see this working is if we toss the fate resistance out the window and say Epitaph fate fucked GER to get hit, and we take the 50/50 and assume best case scenario and a big ass blog about time erase and how it interacts with reality is written (I aint doing that, more effort than it's worth), but that sadly isnt possible here.
Possibly: Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

It fits how we use the possibly wording tbh, since it has still basis in our standards.

Tho a new wording would be
 
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KC's time erasure is not depicted as some feat related to speed, erased time is not even like time stop, so "moving" there is neither a speed feat; there were an instance, I think with Sex Pistol but not remember quite, where the projectiles pretty much moved iin erased time, so movement is still possible, at the end its 5 second event that actually happened (this is more obvious with the anime scenes, take it or not).

That's actually wrong, nothing moves in deleted time, Mista's bullets? They aren't moving, the characters? They aren't moving, nothing moves. It's not so simple, I understand the confusion surrounding subject, especially because, like you mentioned, the anime actually changed how it works to make the ability itself simpler to understand so I understand completely why this is being brought up again so it's fine.
But no, nothing moves in time erased, those things you see, arent actually them. I posted an example early in the thread.

As for MiH being infinite in speed, inot quite, it accelerate time and he accelerate along with it, exponentially growing, when it reaches infinite, the universe resets.

And it keeps going till he manually decides to stop it, doesnt matter. MIH can hit Infinite speed and he's rated as such, that's the only two things that need to be true, the rest is semantics at best and irrelevant at worst. The end result is what matters here, and we know for an absolute fact he can and has hit said speed (only stopping to kill Emporio in the new world). Should also make mention the second time he uses his ability the acceleration is far faster, as well, not that it matters.

MiH's Stat block saying infinite? Consider the following: its wrong, or at least misinterpreted, there were instances where Pucci being infinite in speed could have been pretty useful, and yet nothing (take it or not), Jotaro even stopped him in time when trying to look for hi shortly after obtaining MiH.

It isn't wrong? It's demonstrably proven true, he's rated for what his peak speed is, everybody is well aware he needs to accelerate to said speed first, but that doesn't change the fact his top speed is infinite and he's rated as such in all known material. You're acting like because it says Infinite, it must mean he's ALWAYS infinite or it's wrong, that's never the case, we know the context and why, we know it's his peak speed, and we know it's referring to him at maximum velocity.
You're not wrong per say, the things you're saying about MIH, for the most part, aren't wrong, the issue is that this is completely irrelevant and doesnt actually change any points made.
 
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Bro, erased time feats dont count for anything anymore, it's literally why this thread is a thing.
Also the Ultimate Stand line you're taking a bit out of context in the way that's worded, and you're still outright ignoring the epitaph anti-feat, that WOULD work and be reasonable conclusion, if, that never happened. But it did.
Also "just for GER or RTZ", it doesn't have to be for just one of them, some stats could be GER, some could be RTZ, it isn't mutually exclusive.
 
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Bro, erased time feats dont count for anything anymore, it's literally why this thread is a thing.
Is a supportive feat lol, we can't ignore it, is worth to be mentioned.
Also the Ultimate Stand line you're taking a bit out of context in the way that's worded, and you're still outright ignoring the epitaph anti-feat, that WOULD work and be reasonable conclusion, if, that never happened. But it did.
Also "just for GER or RTZ", it doesn't have to be for just one of them, some stats could be GER, some could be RTZ, it isn't mutually exclusive.
That's why the possibly is there, to cover the possibility that the rating may be just for RtZ or the entirely of GER.
 
KC's time erasure is not depicted as some feat related to speed, erased time is not even like time stop, so "moving" there is neither a speed feat; there were an instance, I think with Sex Pistol but not remember quite, where the projectiles pretty much moved iin erased time, so movement is still possible, at the end its 5 second event that actually happened (this is more obvious with the anime scenes, take it or not).
Sex pistols doesnt debunk it, KC says the actions we see from others in time erase is forecasts only, aerosmiths bullets go through him too, showing nothing is physically there and they just projections
 
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is a supportive feat lol, we can't ignore it, is worth to be mentioned.

It can't tho, it's definitely worth mentioning on the profile somewhere, hell, it's gonna be a resistance at the very least, but we, as a wiki, outright dont consider those feats to be relevant to speed at all. Listing it in speed as a justification doesnt work, because it isnt one anymore, not even support, it's treated, in regards to speed, the same as simply moving through air, doesnt effect anything. If those feats still counted, this thread would have been void and the rating would stay as is.
That's why the possibly is there, to cover the possibility that the rating may be just for RtZ or the entirely of GER.
That's fair and would work as I said, but only if GER being apart of that possibility wasnt discredited by the manga itself...
 
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Actually, idk why we discussing how time erase even works, forecasts, etc or anything is even a topic, time void feats dont count anymore, it's why we're even having this thread, time erase doesnt effect anything at all here so talking about it is just kinda filling up the thread with posts that dont change anything.
 
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It can't tho, it's definitely worth mentioning on the profile somewhere, hell, it's gonna be a resistance at the very least, but we, as a wiki, outright dont consider those feats to be relevant to speed at all. Listing it in speed as a justification doesnt work, because it isnt one anymore, not even support, it's treated, in regards to speed, the same as simply moving through air, doesnt effect anything. If those feats still counted, this thread would have been void and the rating would stay as is.
Fine I guess.
That's fair and would work as I said, but only if GER being apart of that possibility wasnt discredited by the manga itself...
You admitted that is a 50/50 possibility, so why not now?

Is not much of a chance for a likely, but isn't even that remote for the possibly, since it works even for mild possibilities.
 
Diavolo statement < feats saying otherwise

Count it as possibly, also fate manipulation would still not care of how powerful GER is, his power will be something to favor him regardless
 
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Fine I guess.

You admitted that is a 50/50 possibility, so why not now?

Is not much of a chance for a likely, but isn't even that remote for the possibly, since it works even for mild possibilities.
It's a 50/50 if GER had no contradictions, the Epitapth sequence discredits the possibility of scaling and his other feats aren't enough to disprove that scene. Thus, that 50/50 becomes a 0, we now know what it was talking about, and it was talking RTZ, the thing that's already proven capable of acting against things GER can not, hell even the very blow that was "supposedly" going to kill Giorno.
RTZ has no contradictions and everything going for it, GER on the other hand is in a bad position.
 

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Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Now you agree, MiH's speed is not something like conventional speed, but rather something granted by its Time Manipulation. So I believe the main point is that GER as "NA" as rating instead an infinite rating as MiH, what does NA in this case?
 
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Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Now you agree, MiH's speed is not something like conventional speed, but rather something granted by its Time Manipulation. So I believe the main point is that GER as "NA" as rating instead an infinite rating as MiH, what does NA in this case?
JOJO-A-GO!GO! stated that is because of the stats being non-measurable from the Jojoverse standards
 
Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.
Diavolo literally says only he should move in time erase as if nothing happened and be unaffected, GER is the only one not to be
 
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Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Now you agree, MiH's speed is not something like conventional speed, but rather something granted by its Time Manipulation. So I believe the main point is that GER as "NA" as rating instead an infinite rating as MiH, what does NA in this case?
Ok? Why are you even talking about this? Time erase was never a factor to any argument bringing it up is a literal waste of time, I dont think anyone except a few posts ago used that as a justification at all.
Also excuse you? RTZ is demonstrably above GER, and "they have to have the same rating".
No they don't, where does it say that? Where does it imply that? Since when was this a thing?
Absolutely nothing says that GER and RTZ have to be the same speed, absolutely nothing. And there's no reason to assume they are if we have evidence of RTZ already being capable of stopping things GER can't. The notion they're the same is already proven false.
That argument isnt an actual argument. If theyre different then theyre different, that's all there is to it.

Now I agree? I'm not agreeing with what you're insinuating, I'm just saying at face value you're not wrong but what you're trying to conclude based upon the information isn't inherent right or relevant. Nobody said otherwise. MIH's speed is effectively conventional and treated as such, it's acceleration that allows him to hit infinite speed and he's treated and rated as such in context and elsewhere for that to be the case. It's also technically not even time manipulation.
You believe wrong. Also NA is wrong based on everything we know about this, hell, the reason it exists is to clarify it's not literally "None".

Like we've went over this, a hundred times, this isn't even new news. And the worst part is, it doesn't matter, this quite literally doesn't effect the argument in the slightest.

Please bring up something that wasnt argued for over a hundred posts, I'm begging you, this particular topic has been beaten into the ground and is six feet under already.
 
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The standards from void or realms with no time came up only cuz many verses just move normally and dont point out anything needed to do that

Anyone has took in consideration if a verse states you need to have the movements to do that in such places?

If a character is said by movement cant be affected by time stop and can go normally, we still gonna say its not speed related? Also this was an example
 
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The standards from void or realms with no time came up only cuz many verses just move normally and dont point out anything needed to to do it

Anyone has took in consideration if a verse states you need to have the movements to do that in such places?

If a character is said by movement cant be affected by time stop and can go normally, we still gonna say its not speed related?
I don't disagree with you (at least not fully), and I think some things should be case by case, but, that's a different thread entirely, that's a wiki wide thing.
Point is based on wiki regulations and what we know, mftl, infinite rtz is the best we got. The time feat cant be used at all on standards, and even then, King Crimson's Time Skip is whack with how it actually works, it'd be interpretive at best (not to say I personally would accept the interpretation, it being subjective means nothing objective can be gotten).

Technically the last one would be considered resistance first if speed isnt relevant to the feat and there's no other feats to suggest that being from speed.
 

Antoniofer

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Sigh, this is the reason I didn't want to comment here...

Ok, KC is not the issue here, that is out of the window, basically is scaling from MiH based in "NA" being superior to "infinite", am I right?

Plus, MiH accelerate time, everything that is not a living being increases its "speed" (flesh rots faster, clothes disintegrate, etc), it was also stated it manipulates time, so why assuming his power works like B.I.G and is more "mundane" speed?
 
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Chariot you talk about anti-feats, but you forgot that is why the possibly exist, if said anti-feat that makes if GER gets Infinite or not vague, is because of this:
  • Case 1: GER was affected until RtZ came in, so is MFTL
  • Case 2: GER was fucking around and just wanted to show to Diavolo how Truth works, and the full scaling from MiH is legit
We can't know which one is true, so the MFTL, possibly Infinite stands, simple as that.
 
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Ok, KC is not the issue here, that is out of the window,

a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶s̶u̶e̶,̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶e̶r̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶e̶l̶f̶.̶ ̶

.basically is scaling from MiH based in "NA" being superior to "infinite", am I right?

If you simplify it drastically and cut out the arguments, that's like, the bare bones version of it yeah.

Plus, MiH accelerate time, everything that is not a living being increases its "speed" (flesh rots faster, clothes disintegrate, etc), it was also stated it manipulates time, so why assuming his power works like B.I.G and is more "mundane" speed?

Because we aren't treating it like that?
Everyone knows MIH gets his increased speed through his ability, that doesn't matter.
His speed does increase, is it through the use of his ability? Yes, but it does increase, he makes use of his accelerating speed and we know for an absolute fact he's rated in his speed category, as infinite, because at his peak, his speed hits that of infinity.
All that matters is that MIH can hit infinite speeds and he's rated as such.
the issue here is that this argument is just arguing how he gets infinite speed, doesnt change that he still gets it and he's qualified as such at his best.
Also BIG as well, he exists so even then.

Like, this is like complaining about Kiritsugu's accel and acting like it doesn't actually effect his speed, if he was rated at his peak speed with those spells, well, it wouldnt change the fact that's his speed in that situation and he's rated like that.
 
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Chariot you talk about anti-feats, but you forgot that is why the possibly exist, if said anti-feat that makes if GER gets Infinite or not vague, is because of this:
  • Case 1: GER was affected until RtZ came in, so is MFTL
  • Case 2: GER was fucking around and just wanted to show to Diavolo how Truth works, and the full scaling from MiH is legit
We can't know which one is true, so the MFTL, possibly Infinite stands, simple as that.
Furst off, that's not case 1, GER being "effected" isnt the issue, the issue is him getting his heart torn out, what happens after the time erase, as shown in the vision.
GER isnt omniscient, he doesnt know exactly what vision Diavolo is gonna get, him fucking around is sus because there's a difference between fucking around and being gouged out in a potential future because you couldnt defend in time.

And occam's razer exists, GER looked like he was effected by time erase, the vision showed something happening, and everything was in motion to transpire that way, only stopping because RTZ kicked in.
That's what we know, that's what we see, so that's how we treat it.

Are we really going to pretend or act like GER was just "pretending" to be effected and didnt do anything till RTZ itself kicked in on the attack that was supposed to kill Giorno?
 
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Are we really going to pretend or act like GER was just "pretending" to be effected and didnt do anything till RTZ itself kicked in on the attack that was supposed to kill Giorno?
I mean, as I told before, GER wanted to trigger RtZ to show to Diavolo how he can't reach the truth he saw, and he somehow knew that he was viewing the future as we can see from that "the actions you see are indeed the future" thing.
 
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I mean, as I told before, GER wanted to trigger RtZ to show to Diavolo how he can't reach the truth he saw, and he somehow knew that he was viewing the future as we can see from that "the actions you see are indeed the future" thing.

So we're going to pretend then?
Also yeah obviously GER knew, Diavolo yelled out that his vision choose him before GER started talking (And he would have already known, Giorno was well aware of Epitaph and his precognition).
 
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So we're going to pretend then?
Also yeah obviously GER knew, Diavolo yelled out that his vision choose him before GER started talking (And he would have already known, Giorno was well aware of Epitaph and his precognition).
I mean, GER at that very moment knew that he was going to die as it was written in the fate, so he decided to prove Diavolo wrong in the most savage way possible, that's it.
 

Antoniofer

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If erased time is not the issue, and do not support infinite speed anymore, and scaling from MiH and BIG (that I still have my issues), then what is the other reason for infinite speed?

Try to be as short as possible, and respectful, I just came here, I did not read through +400 comments.
 
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If erased time is not the issue, and do not support infinite speed anymore, and scaling from MiH and BIG (that I still have my issues), then what is the other reason for infinite speed?

Well, for starters, your issues are unfounded, or rather, they arent relevant and dont change or effect the things that do matter, your only argument amounts to why he's infinite speed, not if he is, unless you want to actually argue that MIH isn't infinite in speed, isnt treated as such and cant actually reach it, then it's kinda moot, because that's the only way that issue would be relevant.

Try to be as short as possible, and respectful, I just came here, I did not read through +400 comments.

My dude, if it was so simple to just easily explain that we wouldn't have gone for 400 posts to begin with... Hell I wish i could cover everything in a quick post, but at this point I dont think that's even possible.
 
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If erased time is not the issue, and do not support infinite speed anymore, and scaling from MiH and BIG (that I still have my issues), then what is the other reason for infinite speed?
It's mainly from the scaling above MiH and BIG yep, and I don't see issues there, as GER is the "Ultimate Stand" according to WoG and Databooks.
 
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I mean, GER at that very moment knew that he was going to die as it was written in the fate, so he decided to prove Diavolo wrong in the most savage way possible, that's it.
He didn't though, if he was effected by time skip, and was about to "die" before RTZ kicked in, how would he know?
You're assuming he was pretending to be conscious that whole time, when that's not implied at all and he didnt appear active untill RTZ saved him.
And as for knowing about the vision and that he was going to die, that's because Diavolo yelled at him so like?
 
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He didn't though, if he was effected by time skip, and was about to "die" before RTZ kicked in, how would he know?
You're assuming he was pretending to be conscious that whole time, when that's not implied at all and he didnt appear active untill RTZ saved him.
And as for knowing about the vision and that he was going to die, that's because Diavolo yelled at him so like?
Ye, at very least he has resistance to time hax like Jotaro did, couldn't move but still aware.
 
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Ye, at very least he has resistance to time hax like Jotaro did, couldn't move but still aware..
But that isn't said anywhere or hinted at...
That's the thing dude, you're making to many assumptions, there's a limit to what we can do in that situation.
 
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But that isn't said anywhere or hinted at...
That's the thing dude, you're making to many assumptions, there's a limit to what we can do in that situation.
Even you make assumptions tho, since this "RtZ > GER" was made from you.

Plus, GER has evidence of being aware in the Skip, otherwise how could he know about Diavolo seeing his future?
 
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Even you make assumptions tho, since this "RtZ > GER" was made from you.

Yeah based on actual concrete evidence. I'm not saying it just because or making assumptions not based on anything, at this point it isnt an assumptions, it's just saying something we know to be true based on actual proof and explicit showings.

Plus, GER has evidence of being aware in the Skip, otherwise how could he know about Diavolo seeing his future?

That would only count if that actually happened, Diavolo screamed that after RTZ kicked in. That would be why. Of course GER would be aware of something Diavolo said after RTZ kicked in, that's like, the whole argument here.
 
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That would only count if that actually happened, Diavolo screamed that after RTZ kicked in. That would be why. Of course GER would be aware of something Diavolo said after RTZ kicked in, that's like, the whole argument here.
He didn't lmao. As you can see here (which I've created from the scans I've downloaded rn), Diavolo did that scream in the 5th pic, but RtZ activated in the 6th.
 
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"But, the forecast has still chosen me!".
He screams that right in his face after RTZ already activated, as in, after everything was going back to normal. He screams about his vision more then once dude, he's kinda panicking so of course he would, the second time RTZ already kicked in.
Like if I knew someone had precognition, and they screamed in my face saying that the vision still chose them while he's trying to land a killing blow on me, it doesn't take a genius to know that he's talking about his precog.

Like come on, be reasonable, there's a limit to how much we can assume when far more likely alternatives and explanations exist if not otherwise specified.
 
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Yes, and one panel after RTZ kicks in, stops him from finishing his blow, several things start reverting, including the blood and so on and so forth. And then he talks about his vision again and goes to attack again, before he himself is yeeted back in full force.
RTZ was already active the second time.

Edit: Actually double checking, Diavolo was already being dragged back forcefully against his will, he tried to get in another strike before he was forcefully pull completely out of range, and that's when he says the second line.
 
I just noticed and remembered from Strym scans, Diavolo blinded Giorno with blood as well and we seen users cant fight what they cant see, let alone Diavolo also had to punch Giorno too in other to deal with GER, so thats another point how Diavolo managed to get that, agaim him saying he was fast enough isnt true when he got blitzed
 
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Yes, and one panel after RTZ kicks in, stops him from finishing his blow, several things start reverting, including the blood and so on and so forth. And then he talks about his vision again and goes to attack again, before he himself is yeeted back in full force.
RTZ was already active the second time.

Edit: Actually double checking, Diavolo was already being dragged back forcefully against his will, he tried to get in another strike before he was forcefully pull completely out of range, and that's when he says the second line.
You literally just admitted that RtZ activated after the 1st claim
 
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I just noticed and remembered from Strym scans, Diavolo blinded Giorno with blood as well and we seen users cant fight what they cant see, let alone Diavolo also had to punch Giorno too in other to deal with GER, so thats another point how Diavolo managed to get that, agaim him saying he was fast enough isnt true when he got blitzed
I don't think you understand what base infinite GER would entail, he would have had literally infinite time to wipe the blood from his eyes. This argument would be ok if we were talking about literally anything BUT infinite speed for base.
 
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You literally just admitted that RtZ activated after the 1st claim

Uh yeah cool? And there was two claims, and the second claim was after RTZ was activated.
Do you not realize what you're arguing here? If he mentioned it AT ALL after RTZ, your whole point is completely invalidated, because Diavolo explicitly makes note of his vision post RTZ, and he did, he does mention it right in GER's face, after RTZ kicked in.
Ergo, GER being aware of Diavolo's vision and thus being aware in the erased time initially doesn't add up, because Diavolo exclaimed as much even after the fact.

Actually, why are you clinging to whether it was the 1st, 2nd or even dozenth claim? That doesn't matter, your point becomes invalid the moment a single claim happened post RTZ.
 
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Uh yeah cool? And there was two claims, and the second claim was after RTZ was activated.
Do you not realize what you're arguing here? If he mentioned it AT ALL after RTZ, your whole point is completely invalidated, because Diavolo explicitly makes note of his vision post RTZ, and he did, he does mention it right in GER's face, after RTZ kicked in.
Ergo, GER being aware of Diavolo's vision and thus being aware in the erased time initially doesn't add up, because Diavolo exclaimed as much even after the fact.
I don't remotely think that GER would do nothing after that "IT'S OVER" with Diavolo about to punch Giorno to the head tbf.
 
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I don't remotely think that GER would do nothing after that "IT'S OVER" with Diavolo about to punch Giorno to the head tbf.

Isnt this actively counterintuitive to the point you're trying to make? You think he would so something after he says that? But he doesn't really do anything at al;, if your main goal is to say that GER was always cognizant, then either way, this claim doesnt add up to your end goal. Unless I'm misunderstanding you here.
 
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Isnt this actively counterintuitive to the point you're trying to make? You think he would so something after he says that? But he doesn't really do anything at al;, if your main goal is to say that GER was always cognizant, then either way, this claim doesnt add up to your end goal. Unless I'm misunderstanding you here.
Ok, let's sum up a bit since this is derailing, shall we?

GER was at very least aware of what was happening, after that diavolo said "I did it! I won! I was a moment faster! The forecast shows me punching trought his heart! The future has choosen the actions of my King Crimson!"

After that, at the very moment when Diavolo was about to punch Giorno after such claim, RtZ goes in.

The 1st claim already made pretty clear that Diavolo used Epitaph, and ofc GER knew that he did such after hearing such a confirmation.
 
Man....stop defending that bullshit...it doesnt debunk infinite speed, if you manipulate fate, you change the odds against you aka can make the impossible, possible

It doesnt matter, fate made an infinite speed character lose to someone who isnt, simply cuz it was fated like that, in a part where fate is a huge theme going
 
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Ok, let's sum up a bit since this is derailing, shall we?

I mean, it's you who brought it up.

GER was at very least aware of what was happening, after that diavolo said "I did it! I won! I was a moment faster! The forecast shows me punching trought his heart! The future has choosen the actions of my King Crimson!" After that, at the very moment when Diavolo was about to punch Giorno after such claim, RtZ goes in.

Yes, in case you missed it, the assumption is that RTZ can act on its own against attacks against Giorno, the reason being is, well GER was very clearly effected by the time erase initially. Don't like it? Take it up with Efi, not me.

The 1st claim already made pretty clear that Diavolo used Epitaph, and ofc GER knew that he did such after hearing such a confirmation.

Or, RTZ activated automatically as GER wasn't cognizant in the first place the moment Diavolo tried to harm Giorno, then GER heard Diavolo literally scream in his face about his vision and the like and that's why he was aware of the vision.

And before you say it, absolutely nothing says RTZ is manual or automatic, we just just to go one what we're shown, and that's, in this situation, GER being effected and not cognizant while it goes off.
 
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Man....stop defending that bullshit...it doesnt debunk infinite speed, if you manipulate fate, you change the odds against you aka can make the impossible, possible

It doesnt matter, fate made an infinite speed character lose to non who isnt, simply cuz it was fated like that, in a part where fate is a huge theme going
Except, GER very likely resists fate, and hey, even Strym agreed to that, and if he resists fate then that fate excuse simply doesn't work, because it's wrong.

I'll defend the points that need defending, I'm not here to jack off the profiles as high as I possibly can, if something is warranted, it's warranted, if something is false, it's false. You're telling me to basically just accept things that have huge glaring issues and act like they dont exist? There's real issues here even if you think otherwise, and as such, I'm obligated to say as much because doing the opposite would be wrong to do.
 
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Or, RTZ activated automatically as GER wasn't cognizant in the first place the moment Diavolo tried to harm Giorno, then GER heard Diavolo literally scream in his face about his vision and the like and that's why he was aware of the vision.

And before you say it, absolutely nothing says RTZ is manual or automatic, we just just to go one what we're shown, and that's, in this situation, GER being effected and not cognizant while it goes off.
I see what you mean. You still admit that RtZ being passive/automatic/whatever is an assumption with the same weight, so the possibility of GER being aware in the Time Skip even before RtZ is equal to the one you said, since both are valid interpretations which have the same validity, so the MFTL possibly Infinite still stands.
 
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I see what you mean. You still admit that RtZ being passive/automatic/whatever is an assumption with the same weight, so the possibility of GER being aware in the Time Skip even before RtZ is equal to the one you said, since both are valid interpretations which have the same validity, so the MFTL possibly Infinite still stands.
Actually I said personally that I think it's both based on what we see it do and how it's been used.
The main issue is that we're never explicitly told it's any of them, it's not said in the manga or any guide.
As such, it's open to interpretation to an extent.
But that doesn't mean GER wasn't effected by the time erase, we kinda see it.
 
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