Avoid the Void: Aggrandizement of a Supery Papery Mario

[Mephistus]

Paper Mario w/ Pure Hearts changes:​

Immeasurable Lifting Strength: Can resist the pull within the Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. These Voids are superior to the potency of the main Void that was pulling in all the multiverse’s entire dimensions, which include space-time continuums. This is proven by these Voids harming the durability of the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts, in which they are able to in turn harm Super Dimentio with their physical might, who himself planned on surviving the main Void that was consuming the multiverse even in his weakened state with his innate durability and only finally accepted defeat when the heroes killed him.

Infinite Speed: Can dodge and move faster than Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. The main Void consuming the multiverse is shown to be spreading at an infinite speed and rate; shown to expand within all of the infinite universes in the multiverse in a finite amount of time.

Count Bleck changes:​

Infinite Speed: He scales to the four heroes empowered by Pure Hearts in speed when empowered by the Chaos Heart as he is shown to move faster than the Voids he uses when he gets serious.

Resistance Negation: For force fields and attack reflection with his Void attacks; being able to bypass the forcefield power-up (normally supposed to make the user “invincible”) and being able to ignore Barry’s reflection ability upon contact, which intentionally works on enemy projectiles in the game.

Super Dimentio changes:​

Infinite Speed: He scales to the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts as he’s shown being relative to their speed in that key. He can even move faster than Count Bleck with his jump attack in his boss fight.

Resistance Negation: For force fields and attack reflection for the same reasons as Count Bleck with having the same powers available from the Chaos Heart as the "ideal host" for its powers to create Voids.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Infinite Speed: Can dodge and move faster than Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. The main Void consuming the multiverse is shown to be spreading at an infinite speed and rate; shown to expand within all of the infinite universes in the multiverse in a finite amount of time.

Absolutely not. Dodging something on a small scale =/= dodging something on a multiversal scale. There is 0 evidence that those miniature voids are in any way comparable to the main Void; If they were, they'd also be multiverse level (but they obviously aren't) because they'd have the same properties and the speed necessary to destroy everything just as quickly as the main Void. There's... also not even a way to compare them to the main Void aside from "well it looks similar"; We have no way to gauge how similar it is, so assuming the highest possible end by default is insane.

Same goes for lifting strength. This is taking very little information and extrapolating the highest possible end from it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

pulling in all the multiverse’s entire dimensions, which include space-time continuums.​

Also, this is from a Prima Guide, which we do not use for Mario.

 

[Mephistus]

Absolutely not. Dodging something on a small scale =/= dodging something on a multiversal scale.

The Void moves through 3D space.

There is 0 evidence that those miniature voids are in any way comparable to the main Void; If they were, they'd also be multiverse level (but they obviously aren't) because they'd have the same properties and the speed necessary to destroy everything just as quickly as the main Void.

Since the Voids obviously scale above Super Dimentio's physicals as explained in the OP for evidence, yeah they are comparable when the vortex's purpose is to be moved & succ, which is derived directly from the Chaos Heart's power applied to it.
The main Void still takes days to affect infinity and he's not targeting his castle directly just the heroes for that attack, so, that's not an objection I see a problem with for these.

Also, this is from a Prima Guide, which we do not use for Mario.

Only actually applies to the Super Mario Galaxy Prima Guide due to contradictory info, and even then, the rest of its info should be available. The rest of those guides not being usable is a harebrained head canon that something official is unofficial, so I'll cite it regardless of your and the rest of this forums pleas.

There's... also not even a way to compare them to the main Void aside from "well it looks similar"; We have no way to gauge how similar it is, so assuming the highest possible end by default is insane.

Same goes for lifting strength. This is taking very little information and extrapolating the highest possible end from it.

They are called Voids in the Prima Guide, regardless anyone with two eyes can tell its identical in every aspect but size. It pulls in what it touches.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They are called Voids in the Prima Guide, regardless anyone with two eyes can tell its identical in every aspect but size. It pulls in what it touches.

So, this is kind of an admission that the entire premise of this thread is wrong. The Void is as powerful as it is specifically because of the scale it functions on; It functions on a multiversal scale, ergo it must have power befitting that scale. So, if these voids are nowhere near the scale of the main Void, why would they have any business scaling to it? Hell, if you wanna be really pedantic about this, you could say that the Void is infinite, while these mini-voids are explicitly finite, so the latter can't scale by its very nature, even ignoring how there's no reason for it to scale in the first place.

It's like taking, say, this feat, and going "well of course it's a star level feat, it's literally a star!" while ignoring the fact that it's very small and not at all comparable to the mass and power of a real star.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

It's like taking, say, this feat, and going "well of course it's a star level feat, it's literally a star!" while ignoring the fact that it's very small and not at all comparable to the mass and power of a real star.

We Courage supporters already had enough, please don´t make us suffer even more

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Neutral per now, learning towards disagree due to @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara´s reasons

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I don’t think Prima/Bradygames guides should really be used for any verse without direct confirmation of involvement and consultation with the devs like Elder Scrolls guides and DMC guides are shown to have.

I think “harebrained headcanon” is a kind of wild way to put down someone’s opinion on using sources written by third parties not part of the original team behind the game itself.

It’s especially baffling when Super Paper Mario has its own Official Guide written by Nintendo Power, something owned by and operated by Nintendo with more direct involvement than outsourcing to Prima, who, as we know and have discussed extensively, have a history of getting shit wrong, such as the Mario Galaxy Guide. Why would we prioritize the Prima Guide over that one?

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I agree with Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara. Also, we don't even know whether the voids are created by the Chaos Heart, since Count Bleck uses them even before he gets it.

This is proven by these Voids harming the durability of the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts, in which they are able to in turn harm Super Dimentio with their physical might, who himself planned on surviving the main Void that was consuming the multiverse even in his weakened state with his innate durability and only finally accepted defeat when the heroes killed him.

The voids also deal tiny damage to the pre–Pure Hearts heroes, so if they were as strong as the Void, the heroes would also have to be 2-A.

 

[LuckyEmile]

This all seems pretty fine. I don't really get the controversy with the Prima Guides, but if it's solely due to Super Mario Galaxy stuff (somehow? It's even more accurate to the source material than the English localisation of the game and consistent with the SMG Cards, and even has concept art exclusively released in here, showing they definitely have close connections with Nintendo), I think that should be fine to use as a source for this game. I guess I see the speed issue, though, but I guess for now I'm neutral one it.

Also, I agree with 2-A base heroes per Minion of Pigsaw's argument.

 

[StretchSebe]

Agree with 2-A Base heroes per Minion of Pigsaw's argument too + FRA

 

[LuckyEmile]

It’s especially baffling when Super Paper Mario has its own Official Guide written by Nintendo Power, something owned by and operated by Nintendo with more direct involvement than outsourcing to Prima, who, as we know and have discussed extensively, have a history of getting shit wrong, such as the Mario Galaxy Guide. Why would we prioritize the Prima Guide over that one?

In a way, it's probably fine to use both. I assume the main reason the Nintendo Power guide wasn't used was accessibility reasons?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2-A base cast via scaling to the Void
Base cast almost canonically died to the Void and had literally no way to stop it sans the Pure Hearts

gonna need yall to explain this one to me rq, seeing as the entire narrative of SPM hinges on nobody scaling to the void lmao
also i don't think Pigsaw meant for that to be an actual argument in favor of an upgrade

 

[LuckyEmile]

2-A base cast via scaling to the Void
Base cast almost canonically died to the Void and had literally no way to stop it sans the Pure Hearts
gonna need yall to explain this one to me rq, seeing as the entire narrative of SPM hinges on nobody scaling to the void lmao

Well, I guess it's not too out there. As you mentioned, the base cast went up against the Void, but I don't think they actually almost died. Sure, they had to wake up from going through that experience, but it didn't actually seem to threaten them, in that their HP is the same before and after the event (and you can just skip here to see if you don't want to watch the whole sceen). This is something the Mario series has shown it's not beyond doing to you before, and in that case you had to fight the final boss starting in the 1HP state, whilst here it would be much more forgiving (you're in the hub world, so no immediate threats, letting you use a healing item or buy one from a store, or even head to the inn for a refresh), so not like there would be any detriment to doing that this time.

If that's not too convincing, then in line with Pigsaw's argument (where the heroes do take damage from the mini-Voids), not taking it on the chin still warrants some scaling since they survived it, and the most concern the characters show after it is being discombobulated and waking up from the ordeal, no panic attack that they somehow escaped with their lives.

As for not being able to stop the Void, it doesn't seem like something you can just readily stop or close. Even on obtaining all eight Pure Hearts and placing them in their respective Heart Pillars, the party's goal to is to head to Count Bleck, rather than say "Okay, closing that now!". So, in that sense, it's not so much a plot point they need the Pure Hearts to then deal with the Void (or at least, them not having it on hand isn't the only thing stopping them from stopping it), but rather they want to head to Bleck and the Pure Hearts are essential for their goal.

Hopefully that helps with those concerns...

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Well, I guess it's not too out there. As you mentioned, the base cast went up against the Void, but I don't think they actually almost died. Sure, they had to wake up from going through that experience, but it didn't actually seem to threaten them, in that their HP is the same before and after the event (and you can just skip here to see if you don't want to watch the whole sceen). This is something the Mario series has shown it's not beyond doing to you before, and in that case you had to fight the final boss starting in the 1HP state, whilst here it would be much more forgiving (you're in the hub world, so no immediate threats, letting you use a healing item or buy one from a store, or even head to the inn for a refresh), so not like there would be any detriment to doing that this time.

If that's not too convincing, then in line with Pigsaw's argument (where the heroes do take damage from the mini-Voids), not taking it on the chin still warrants some scaling since they survived it, and the most concern the characters show after it is being discombobulated and waking up from the ordeal, no panic attack that they somehow escaped with their lives.

As for not being able to stop the Void, it doesn't seem like something you can just readily stop or close. Even on obtaining all eight Pure Hearts and placing them in their respective Heart Pillars, the party's goal to is to head to Count Bleck, rather than say "Okay, closing that now!". So, in that sense, it's not so much a plot point they need the Pure Hearts to then deal with the Void (or at least, them not having it on hand isn't the only thing stopping them from stopping it), but rather they want to head to Bleck and the Pure Hearts are essential for their goal.

Hopefully that helps with those concerns...

The cast did not actually get absorbed by the void in this scene. Tippi teleported them out. Tippi panic teleports the cast like this on multiple occasions in the game, with the cast incapped after, such as in World 4 and in the first chapter iirc. It’s very clearly what happens

Even if they did endure the void, you aren’t tanking any sort of physical pressure, it’s just erasure / absorption haxx and would just be a haxx resistance.

If anything that feat would be a direct anti feat I’m showing the protags aren’t fast enough to match the true void’s speed. The one time they’re faced with the the need to outpace it, they’re unable to and the world is destroyed before they can reach the heart.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, while I will give a more detailed response in a bit, I also want to note that this is like. the textbook definition of an outlier. Even without Armor's thread taken into account, one 3-C feat jumping all the way to 2-A off a single feat is absurd for any verse. You don't just scale dozens of characters to a total cosmology wipe on the basis of "well they survived attacks from something that kinda visually resembles the cosmology wipe". The fact that characters are heavily amped by power sources that only show MSS to galaxy level feats at best also makes a 2-A rating just baffling; A single galaxy's worth of energy is a pittance relative to an infinite multiverse.

 

[Livinmeme]

Also, while I will give a more detailed response in a bit, I also want to note that this is like. the textbook definition of an outlier. Even without Armor's thread taken into account, one 3-C feat jumping all the way to 2-A off a single feat is absurd for any verse. You don't just scale dozens of characters to a total cosmology wipe on the basis of "well they survived attacks from something that kinda visually resembles the cosmology wipe". The fact that characters are heavily amped by power sources that only show MSS to galaxy level feats at best also makes a 2-A rating just baffling; A single galaxy's worth of energy is a pittance relative to an infinite multiverse.

That is stupid, if we go only go by feats shown. 95% of verses would be downgraded

 

[StretchSebe]

That is stupid, if we go only go by feats shown. 95% of verses would be downgraded

Obviously, unless we see a character destroying moons all the time, any time they do destroy a moon is an outlier and should be thrown out.

This was why Master Roshi destroying the moon in Dragon Ball wasn't allowed to be used on this site for being an "outlier" for years. I'm not joking.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That is stupid, if we go only go by feats shown. 95% of verses would be downgraded

That's not even what I said, though. Scaling is fine, if the scaling isn't massively inconsistent with every other feat in the series and the central plot of an entire game. What's this straw version of me doing here?

Obviously, unless we see a character destroying moons all the time, any time they do destroy a moon is an outlier and should be thrown out.

Also not what I said. This is also ignoring how Roshi's moon feat was 1. later accepted, and 2. accepted specifically because only stronger characters scaled to it and there were two other moon level feats that were deemed valid, neither of which applies to 2-A base Mario (on top of the myriad of other reasons why it doesn't make any sense).

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

also i don't think Pigsaw meant for that to be an actual argument in favor of an upgrade

Nope.

 

[StretchSebe]

Also not what I said. This is also ignoring how Roshi's moon feat was 1. later accepted, and 2. accepted specifically because only stronger characters scaled to it and there were two other moon level feats that were deemed valid, neither of which applies to 2-A base Mario (on top of the myriad of other reasons why it doesn't make any sense).

I know: I was making a stab at the hyper-conservative way this wiki approaches scaling broadly, not at what you were saying specifically.

Also 1: Took way too long too long to be accepted (better late than never I guess) and 2: Those also existed for decades up to the point they were 'deemed valid'

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, I guess it's not too out there. As you mentioned, the base cast went up against the Void, but I don't think they actually almost died. Sure, they had to wake up from going through that experience, but it didn't actually seem to threaten them, in that their HP is the same before and after the event (and you can just skip here to see if you don't want to watch the whole sceen). This is something the Mario series has shown it's not beyond doing to you before, and in that case you had to fight the final boss starting in the 1HP state, whilst here it would be much more forgiving (you're in the hub world, so no immediate threats, letting you use a healing item or buy one from a store, or even head to the inn for a refresh), so not like there would be any detriment to doing that this time.

If that's not too convincing, then in line with Pigsaw's argument (where the heroes do take damage from the mini-Voids), not taking it on the chin still warrants some scaling since they survived it, and the most concern the characters show after it is being discombobulated and waking up from the ordeal, no panic attack that they somehow escaped with their lives.

As for not being able to stop the Void, it doesn't seem like something you can just readily stop or close. Even on obtaining all eight Pure Hearts and placing them in their respective Heart Pillars, the party's goal to is to head to Count Bleck, rather than say "Okay, closing that now!". So, in that sense, it's not so much a plot point they need the Pure Hearts to then deal with the Void (or at least, them not having it on hand isn't the only thing stopping them from stopping it), but rather they want to head to Bleck and the Pure Hearts are essential for their goal.

Hopefully that helps with those concerns...

Okay, so the first argument is just. absurd. Games do this all the time. In Yakuza 2, Kiryu gets fucking stabbed, poisoned, is left struggling to walk and is on death's door... and then immediately fights two tigers with 0 problem, with the gameplay in no way reflecting just how badly he's injured (his wound even reopens and almost kills him at the end, lol). Gameplay rarely, if ever, reflects the reality we see in cutscenes, because it'd often contrast with good game design.

This is also ignoring the inconsistencies this sort of scaling would bring up. Like, are Dark Squiglets 2-A because they have the same attack stat as Count Bleck? Do we give everything that can hurt Mario a 2-A rating as well, since they obviously mess him up more than the Void? Don't answer that actually, I feel like I might not like the answer.

The cast still like, very explicitly needs the Pure Hearts though. There is no scenario in which 2-A scaling wouldn't be able to solve everything instantly, because if it were true, everyone would just go "okay, time to go beat up Count Bleck" and then Do That, because nothing is stopping them.

Oh yeah, and speaking of cutscenes, you'll never guess what happens to Mario when he has to deal with these Voids outside of gameplay. Spoiler: it doesn't go well!

 

[Theglassman12]

Don’t really care for the Mario stuff here but I do want to comment on one thing.

It’s especially baffling when Super Paper Mario has its own Official Guide written by Nintendo Power, something owned by and operated by Nintendo with more direct involvement than outsourcing to Prima, who, as we know and have discussed extensively, have a history of getting shit wrong, such as the Mario Galaxy Guide. Why would we prioritize the Prima Guide over that one?

Just because one guide made some misinformation on a game that doesn’t mean all guides that don’t have direct developer involvement are considered invalidated. This is case by case at best, if there’s no contradictions for the officially published guides for specific games then I don’t see the harm in using them. Hell one guidebook creator talked about how his MGS 1 guidebook was given an approval by Hideo Kojima himself despite the man and Konami not having much involvement on the guide in the first place.

 

[StretchSebe]

The cast did not actually get absorbed by the void in this scene. Tippi teleported them out. Tippi panic teleports the cast like this on multiple occasions in the game, with the cast incapped after, such as in World 4 and in the first chapter iirc. It’s very clearly what happens

The thread starter shows Mario resisting and walking out from a void Count Bleck creates. It also shows Mario moving relative to a void. Tippi is not even relevant in the gameplay shown.

Did you read the thread starter?

Even if they did endure the void, you aren’t tanking any sort of physical pressure, it’s just erasure / absorption haxx and would just be a haxx resistance.

Yeah destroying all universes and timelines is just 'hax.' There is no scaling implications of something that can destroy 'all worlds, all dimensions.' /s

Do better, man.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The thread starter shows Mario resisting and walking out from a void Count Bleck creates. It also shows Mario moving relative to a void. Tippi is not even present in the gameplay shown.

Did you read the thread starter?

Is there any reason why a void the size of a beach ball is in any way comparable to a void actively consuming the entire multiverse?

Also, like. The scene Kirb is talking about is a cutscene. It has far more relevance to the portrayal of a character's capabilities than what they can do in gameplay. You can pretty easily shrug off things that are strictly shown in gameplay, because game mechanics are a thing that exist (a good example would be whether or not goombas scale to Mario; they technically do, in gameplay, but they're vastly inferior in every other depiction, so we go with the latter). You can't really do the same to the literal plot of the game, though.

 

[StretchSebe]

Is there any reason why a void the size of a beach ball is in any way comparable to a void actively consuming the entire multiverse?

"Is there any reason why the Void would be the Void?

Are you serious?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Is there any reason why the Void is the Void?

Are you serious?

Dawg you cannot be for real right now

The Voids that Count Bleck uses are infinitely smaller than the main Void. The difference in scale is so vast that there's no easy IRL point of comparison. It's like going "well this character survived getting hit with a grain of sand, so obviously they can survive an entire mountain being thrown at them! (they're made of the same material so it's basically the same thing)". It's like going outside on a sunny day vs being immolated in the core of a dying star. Like getting a paper cut vs getting your atomic structure shredded by a black hole. Even then, the differences in scale I'm presenting here are strictly finite; What you're proposing is worse because it's not just equalizing two radically different finite numbers, but it's trying to reconcile the finite with the infinite.

The scale on which these things operate on is so vastly different and plainly obvious to a casual observer that I do not think you genuinely believe your own point; I think you're saying this just because you want upgrades.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Also: the small voids don't destroy the multiverse.

 

[StretchSebe]

The Voids that Count Bleck uses are infinitely smaller than the main Void. The difference in scale is so vast that there's no easy point of comparison. It's like going "well this character survived getting hit with a grain of sand, so obviously they can survive an entire mountain being thrown at them! (they're made of the same material so it's basically the same thing)". It's like going outside on a sunny day vs being immolated in the core of a dying star. Like getting a paper cut vs getting your atomic structure shredded by a black hole. Even then, the differences in scale I'm presenting here are strictly finite; What you're proposing is worse because it's not just equalizing two radically different finite numbers, but it's trying to reconcile the finite with the infinite.

The scale on which these things operate on is so vastly different and plainly obvious to a casual observer that I do not think you genuinely believe your own point; I think you're saying this just because you want upgrades.

But we're not talking about rock. We're not talking about a star. These comparisons don't match. We're talking about a Void that can and will devour all dimensions. It's constantly expanding. It's destroys dimensions regardless of how large or small it was throughout the story. Size is irrelevant.

I asked Kirb but I'll ask you too: Did you read the thread starter??

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I asked Kirb but I'll ask you too: Did you read the thread starter??

We did, and it's silly.

 

[Omnificence]

Oh look, it's another Mario Bros CRT dealing with upgrades that's already being met with opposition and is either bound to get stone-walled for months until it's a necro thread or just outright rejected. As if my past few recent months of dealing with crippling depression due to a scam couldn't get anymore shittier.

Well, I guess the two things that makes sense to me are the Immeasurable Lifting Strength and Resistance Negation, so count me as an agreement on this.

As for the rest, put me on neutral leaning towards somewhere towards the weakest agree and disagree. But it's not like my opinion will matter since I'm not a mod.

 

[Starsprite53]

Also: the small voids don't destroy the multiverse.

Yeah and peeps with X tier don't always destroy X thing, your point?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But we're not talking about rock. We're not talking about a star. These comparisons don't match. We're talking about a Void that can and will devour all dimensions. It's constantly expanding. It's destroys dimensions regardless of how large or small it was throughout the story. Size is irrelevant.

I asked Kirb but I'll ask you too: Did you read the thread starter??

Yeah idk what to say man, I feel like this is willful ignorance. I literally explained to you how those were comparisons, and how what you're proposing is just a more extreme version. Pigsaw already said exactly what I wanted to:

Also: the small voids don't destroy the multiverse.

We did, and it's silly.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah and peeps with X tier don't always destroy X thing, your point?

Except that only works in regards to scaling; A character who knocks out a planet level character doesn't automatically have the range to bust a planet. The Void's only 2-A scaling stems from how it would destroy all worlds; It doesn't scale to anything with that power, it is that power. So why would these mini-Voids have any business scaling to 2-A, if not their direct feats? They don't have anything to scale to besides the base cast, but their only 2-A scaling comes from... tanking the mini-Voids. You can see how this is a problem, yeah?

 

[StretchSebe]

Yeah idk what to say man, I feel like this is willful ignorance. I literally explained to you how those were comparisons, and how what you're proposing is just a more extreme version. Pigsaw already said exactly what I wanted to:

The evidence is right there for you to see and learn.

You are the one stubbornly making up reasons to reject the evidence.

Sad.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

After hearing both sides, I'm leaning on Fuji's points. I don't think the argument for Count Bleck's voids surpassing the main void is necessarily all that concrete.

Immeasurable Lifting Strength: Can resist the pull within the Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. These Voids are superior to the potency of the main Void that was pulling in all the multiverse’s entire dimensions, which include space-time continuums. This is proven by these Voids harming the durability of the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts, in which they are able to in turn harm Super Dimentio with their physical might, who himself planned on surviving the main Void that was consuming the multiverse even in his weakened state with his innate durability and only finally accepted defeat when the heroes killed him.

Basically... the voids scale to the heroes and consequently Dimentio, making them potent against him, but Dimentio planned to survive the main void, making it less potent? That's where I feel like the non-sequitor begins. Unless you could explain why Dimentio "planning to survive the main void" can only be interpreted as him just being able to float around the middle of it and no-sell the impact, there's no reason for us to assert the mechanic by which he would've survived.

Since the rest of the statistics are extrapolated from this primary argument, I have to disagree with them too.

 

[Starsprite53]

The scale on which these things operate on is so vastly different and plainly obvious to a casual observer that I do not think you genuinely believe your own point; I think you're saying this just because you want upgrades.

Saying this when You instantly went "Eww Prima" because you maybe didn't like the feat even tho the guide itself doesn't even matter to the argument is concerning,

Except that only works in regards to scaling; A character who knocks out a planet level character doesn't automatically have the range to bust a planet. The Void's only 2-A scaling stems from how it would destroy all worlds; It doesn't scale to anything with that power, it is that power. So why would these mini-Voids have any business scaling to 2-A, if not their direct feats? They don't have anything to scale to besides the base cast, but their only 2-A scaling comes from... tanking the mini-Voids. You can see how this is a problem, yeah?

Wait, did you take the 2-A Base Cast thing seriously? They were obviously joking

 

[StretchSebe]

But it's not like my opinion will matter since I'm not a mod.

VSBW in a nutshell Also why it took years for this site to properly scale Roshi to evidence that was decades old

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Saying this when You instantly went "Eww Prima" because you maybe didn't like the feat even tho the guide itself doesn't even matter to the argument is concerning,

literally what does this have to do with the current argument
and for your information, i actually dislike using prima guides for any game, not just mario

Wait, did you take the 2-A Base Cast thing seriously? They were obviously joking

@StretchSebe seems to be getting awfully invested in this discussion for something that was a "joke", don't you think? So at least one person here is serious about getting the base cast to 2-A, it seems.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Okay, so the first argument is just. absurd. Games do this all the time. In Yakuza 2, Kiryu gets fucking stabbed, poisoned, is left struggling to walk and is on death's door... and then immediately fights two tigers with 0 problem, with the gameplay in no way reflecting just how badly he's injured (his wound even reopens and almost kills him at the end, lol). Gameplay rarely, if ever, reflects the reality we see in cutscenes, because it'd often contrast with good game design.

Well, that response would work, but I did show how the Mario series just doesn't have good game design and likes to do the contrary. In MaLu, they have Mario and Luigi get severely harmed in a cutscene, and even if you had some really good HP prior, you're forced to start the final boss with both Bros at 1HP, and Cackletta Soul gets the first turn, really giving you no time to react to this. To add to this, New Super Mario Bros also has a similar situation, where Super Mario gets into a fight with Bowser Junior, but comes out on the short end (literally) and takes damage, reverting him to Small Mario, and you then have to play from there as Small Mario. Whilst this is probably an excuse for Mario to go from Super Mario in the opening (which is now his base form, pretty much) to Small Mario at the start of the game, as is 2D Mario tradition, it does still show Nintendo doesn't shy away from Mario taking damage in a cutscene, and the players just have to deal with the consequences. Since this Super Paper Mario example would be way less harsh on the player than they have been, it wouldn't necessarily conflict with gameplay interests this time around, and would help show the narrative threat of the Void to suddenly find yourself that low on health after dealing with it once. I guess the fact the video you linked of Mario having a tiny Void targetted on him and knocking him out likewise shows a similar situation, where he's clearly not having his life threatened, he just wakes up from this, also shows these aren't really threats to his life, just really annoying.

The cast still like, very explicitly needs the Pure Hearts though. There is no scenario in which 2-A scaling wouldn't be able to solve everything instantly, because if it were true, everyone would just go "okay, time to go beat up Count Bleck" and then Do That, because nothing is stopping them.

Well, my point was more the Void can't really be dealt with readily, even when they have the means through which to do so. Getting all the Pure Hearts wasn't the solution, there was still more to the story from there, so it was basically just the idea that even when you have an explicit counter to the Void, you can't just stop it like that, so I don't really get the expectation for them to just do it without them when they couldn't even really just do it with them...

What's this straw version of me doing here?

That made me laugh more than it probably should have! Also as a side note, sorry if me going over all this stuff is annoying...