Avoid the Void: Aggrandizement of a Supery Papery Mario

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Narratively, the smaller voids scaling doesn't make sense. Imagine the Light Prognosticus if they did.

The Void will swallow all... Naught can stop it...unless the one protected by the dark power is destroyed.

also he can throw out small voids that are just as powerful as the big one but don't worry about it

 

[Omnificence]

A character who knocks out a planet level character doesn't automatically have the range to bust a planet

Well, duh; just because Donkey Kong is Island level for punching some moon doesn't mean he can bust an island. But I digress since all you Mario Bros despisers got the downgrade through, and I'm glad I missed that shit storm, btw. Why don't you go compile a CRT to downgrade the entire cast to Tier 9 now?

Wait, did you take the 2-A Base Cast thing seriously?

I didn't.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, my point was more the Void can't really be dealt with readily, even when they have the means through which to do so. Getting all the Pure Hearts wasn't the solution, there was still more to the story from there, so it was basically just the idea that even when you have an explicit counter to the Void, you can't just stop it like that, so I don't really get the expectation for them to just do it without them when they couldn't even really just do it with them...

Yeah, but again, regardless of how long it takes, the cast still needs the Pure Hearts. There's no way to dance around that. They're just, factually a necessity for the plot to move forward, giving the cast the strength they need to combat a foe well beyond their capabilities at the climax of the story. All of that becomes moot if you scale the base cast to that same level of power. Just, imagine if base Goku was always comparable to Super Saiyan Goku; Takes the punch right out of that first transformation and how impactful it was, right?

Well, that response would work, but I did show how the Mario series just doesn't have good game design and likes to do the contrary. In MaLu, they have Mario and Luigi get severely harmed in a cutscene, and even if you had some really good HP prior, you're forced to start the final boss with both Bros at 1HP, and Cackletta Soul gets the first turn, really giving you no time to react to this. To add to this, New Super Mario Bros also has a similar situation, where Super Mario gets into a fight with Bowser Junior, but comes out on the short end (literally) and takes damage, reverting him to Small Mario, and you then have to play from there as Small Mario. Whilst this is probably an excuse for Mario to go from Super Mario in the opening (which is now his base form, pretty much) to Small Mario at the start of the game, as is 2D Mario tradition, it does still show Nintendo doesn't shy away from Mario taking damage in a cutscene, and the players just have to deal with the consequences. Since this Super Paper Mario example would be way less harsh on the player than they have been, it wouldn't necessarily conflict with gameplay interests this time around, and would help show the narrative threat of the Void to suddenly find yourself that low on health after dealing with it once. I guess the fact the video you linked of Mario having a tiny Void targetted on him and knocking him out likewise shows a similar situation, where he's clearly not having his life threatened, he just wakes up from this, also shows these aren't really threats to his life, just really annoying.

This isn't even consistent, though. Mario games are rife with moments where characters are visibly harmed in cutscenes but take no damage in gameplay (like here, here, or here; in the last case, you can clearly see Mario with all his HP intact despite getting beaten by Bowser, falling from the sky, and getting knocked out). You can single out a few instances where this isn't the case, sure, but that doesn't mean every instance of a character getting harmed in a cutscene but unharmed in gameplay is a point of scaling; It's just a discrepancy.

Also like. I wouldn't call getting knocked out in one shot "annoying". The scene clearly shows that base Mario does not scale to the Void in any capacity, he's just so much weaker it isn't even funny. We do not scale characters to attacks that oneshot them on the basis of "well they didn't get instantly atomized".

 

[StretchSebe]

@StretchSebe seems to be getting awfully invested in this discussion for something that was a "joke", don't you think? So at least one person here is serious about getting the base cast to 2-A, it seems.

Are you ok?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Are you ok?

Never have been

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

But I digress since all you Mario Bros despisers got the downgrade through, and I'm glad I missed that shit storm, btw. Why don't you go compile a CRT to downgrade the entire cast to Tier 9 now?

they didn't even commit enough to go the whole length. cowards.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Jokes aside, like I said before, we don't even know if the Chaos Heart makes the small voids or not, so to scale them to its full power is quite a leap to make, especially since, again, they are tiny and deal scratch damage to the heroes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

But I digress since all you Mario Bros despisers got the downgrade through, and I'm glad I missed that shit storm, btw. Why don't you go compile a CRT to downgrade the entire cast to Tier 9 now?

Believe it or not, this agenda to downgrade Mario as much as possible is something you completely made up in your mind. Now, am I saying the people doing so have all conducted themselves perfectly? No, some have definitely been more passive-aggressive and sarcastic than others. And I’d advise for such behavior to stop. But all you’re doing is making it worse.

In the same way you accuse other people of downgrading Mario out of spite, someone could easily say you just want to upgrade it because you just want Mario to be as strong as possible instead of wanting accuracy. But, as we know, that sort of accusation has no business in a thread.

I’m asking you to stop this, and if it keeps up, you will be reported.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

The evil Mario Bros despisers that clearly hate Mario and the entire verse because they disagree with Infinite Multi Base Mario and Infinite Speed boogeymen…. Clearly absolutely not fans of the verse in any meaningful way…

Not exactly a fan of my individual motivations and entire thought process being filed under blind Mario hate because I just disagree with some threads lol

 

[StretchSebe]

Paper Mario w/ Pure Hearts changes:​

Immeasurable Lifting Strength: Can resist the pull within the Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. These Voids are superior to the potency of the main Void that was pulling in all the multiverse’s entire dimensions, which include space-time continuums. This is proven by these Voids harming the durability of the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts, in which they are able to in turn harm Super Dimentio with their physical might, who himself planned on surviving the main Void that was consuming the multiverse even in his weakened state with his innate durability and only finally accepted defeat when the heroes killed him.

Infinite Speed: Can dodge and move faster than Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. The main Void consuming the multiverse is shown to be spreading at an infinite speed and rate; shown to expand within all of the infinite universes in the multiverse in a finite amount of time.

Count Bleck changes:​

Infinite Speed: He scales to the four heroes empowered by Pure Hearts in speed when empowered by the Chaos Heart as he is shown to move faster than the Voids he uses when he gets serious.

Resistance Negation: For force fields and attack reflection with his Void attacks; being able to bypass the forcefield power-up (normally supposed to make the user “invincible”) and being able to ignore Barry’s reflection ability upon contact, which intentionally works on enemy projectiles in the game.

Super Dimentio changes:​

Infinite Speed: He scales to the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts as he’s shown being relative to their speed in that key. He can even move faster than Count Bleck with his jump attack in his boss fight.

Resistance Negation: For force fields and attack reflection for the same reasons as Count Bleck with having the same powers available from the Chaos Heart as the "ideal host" for its powers to create Voids.

Oh right

I agree with thread starter. These are super straightforward observations.

 

[Huesito88]

Uh-huh, sure. Then maybe you'd like to tell me why exactly I stumbled across...

"We'll need to collect a lot more evidence to support our arguments before we can make the full
downgrade
We'd also need to know what Tier to downgrade him to"

That just sounds like someone whom believes in something, but needs to gather evidence to prove his claim. Try replacing the word downgrade with upgrade.

 

[Omnificence]

That just sounds like someone whom believes in something, but needs to gather evidence to prove his claim. Try replacing the word downgrade with upgrade.

Fine.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Well, the downgrade sucked and all, but can we stop derailing and continue talking about Super Paper Mario? Thanks.

 

[Omnificence]

Well, the downgrade sucked and all, but can we stop derailing and continue talking about Super Paper Mario? Thanks.

Fine. I just don't expect anything to get passed here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Uh-huh, sure. Then maybe you'd like to tell me why exactly I stumbled across...

"We'll need to collect a lot more evidence to support our arguments before we can make the full
downgrade
We'd also need to know what Tier to downgrade him to"

You got me. All those years spent growing up playing Mario, one of the very first games I ever played and my first introduction into the whole medium, I did so whilst keeping a meticulous checklist of every anti-feat in preparation for my divine purpose (downgrading his stupid Italian ass to BELOW AVERAGE HUMAN LEVEL where it belongs). I cackled at every death to a pitfall or stray goomba, countless hours spent whispering to myself - "there's no way THIS loser would ever get universal to multiversal scaling!". The hundreds of hours I wasted on Youtube, enraptured by the innumerable fan animations and spritework that dominated the platform, were all so I could sit back and enjoy Mario losing fights to Sonic, as he rightfully should. When I left my childhood home with my Switch and copy of Mario Odyssey as some of my only remaining possessions, I did not thank the universe for gifting me with something to burn away the ennui in my darkest hour, but instead cursed God himself for forcing me to coexist with such an inferior piece of media. Even today, the only reason I frequent this site is so I can bring despair and wrath in my wake, bringing Mario fans to their knees as I force them to grovel before me and my psychopathic agenda. I scale Touhou not because I like the series - indeed, my all consuming hatred of Mario is the only emotion I feel - but because it is just one of many verses that will curbstomp that miserable red cuck into the dirt where he belongs.

I will destroy everything you love, and it will be beautiful.
for legal purposes, this is a joke

 

[CloverDragon03]

Fuji, I get that these claims of you being biased against the verse get really annoying and all, but I genuinely feel like responses such as these only stoke the flames further. I get what you’re saying - you quite literally have zero reason to be biased against the verse.

That being said, in the interest of maintaining a healthy discussion, I’d like to ask you to stop with responses like this just as I asked Omnificence to quit it with the accusations.

 

[Livinmeme]

That's not even what I said, though. Scaling is fine, if the scaling isn't massively inconsistent with every other feat in the series and the central plot of an entire game. What's this straw version of me doing here?

also want to note that this is like. the textbook definition of an outlier.

You were arguing that it is an outlier, because the attack only had suppossed 3-C range....When...It was stated that it was going to destroy all of reality

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fuji, I get that these claims of you being biased against the verse get really annoying and all, but I genuinely feel like responses such as these only stoke the flames further. I get what you’re saying - you quite literally have zero reason to be biased against the verse.

That being said, in the interest of maintaining a healthy discussion, I’d like to ask you to stop with responses like this just as I asked Omnificence to quit it with the accusations.

Yeah, ofc. I just like writing these anime villain-style speeches every once in a while because I think they're funny.

You were arguing that it is an outlier, because the attack only had suppossed 3-C range....When...It was stated that it was going to destroy all of reality

I never argued this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

To get back to the topic at hand, this discussion’s gotten sidetracked so I’m not really sure what the evidence is for these smaller voids being the same in potency as the main Void is. At the moment, that seems very iffy to me. Could someone fill me in on what the evidence is?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, ofc. I just like writing these anime villain-style speeches every once in a while because I think they're funny.

I mean they are but… time and place y’know?

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

To get back to the topic at hand, this discussion’s gotten sidetracked so I’m not really sure what the evidence is for these smaller voids being the same in potency as the main Void is. At the moment, that seems very iffy to me. Could someone fill me in on what the evidence is?

According to the main post, it's because they can damage the Pure Heart‒boosted Heroes of Light, who are comparable to Super Dimentio, who would've survived the Void destroying the universe.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To get back to the topic at hand, this discussion’s gotten sidetracked so I’m not really sure what the evidence is for these smaller voids being the same in potency as the main Void is. At the moment, that seems very iffy to me. Could someone fill me in on what the evidence is?

The evidence, as far as I understand it:

• The mini-Voids can harm the cast while they are empowered by the Pure Hearts, which allows them to scale to the "main" Void.
• The Prima Guide refers to them as Voids, with a capital V, so they are obviously being likened to the main Void.
• They use the same graphical effects as the main Void.
• They are voids, so obviously they're the same as the main void, because void = void.

That's it. I will note that the base cast is explicitly unable to deal with/tank hits from both the mini Voids and the main Void in cutscenes; The latter stems from a particularly important story moment, which I feel is notable.

 

[Omnificence]

Like I said, the Immeasurable Lifting Strength and Resistance Negation seems to make sense to me, so I'm in agreement on that.

As for the rest, I'm still neutral, so maybe some more sufficient proof will be needed.

 

[Omnificence]

I will destroy everything you love, and it will be beautiful.
for legal purposes, this is a joke

Yeah, ofc. I just like writing these anime villain-style speeches every once in a while because I think they're funny.

Heh, you're pretty funny; no really, I mean it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The evidence, as far as I understand it:

• The mini-Voids can harm the cast while they are empowered by the Pure Hearts, which allows them to scale to the "main" Void.
• The Prima Guide refers to them as Voids, with a capital V, so they are obviously being likened to the main Void.
• They use the same graphical effects as the main Void.
• They are voids, so obviously they're the same as the main void, because void = void.

That's it. I will note that the base cast is explicitly unable to deal with/tank hits from both the mini Voids and the main Void in cutscenes; The latter stems from a particularly important story moment, which I feel is notable.

Okay, going through these one-by-one:

• Speed and LS are what are being proposed here, so this point is wholly irrelevant since this point only talks about AP
• I don't agree with Kirbonic's earlier assessment of not using Prima Guides, but that being said, this is still a bit of a mixed bag for me. I get why one might arrive at this conclusion, but the main Void was something else entirely as far as I know. As in, its scale was far greater than any of these other Voids
• Graphical effects as an argument is kind of a nothing burger imo, like even if that means they're similar in nature, the same can't be said about their scope
• Different voids, different scales

Going by this, I'd be inclined to disagree with the OP

 

[Eseseso]

Personally I have no issue with Prima guides as long as nothing in-game contradicts them, but I'm not sure on the other stuff.

 

[Omnificence]

Speed and LS are what are being proposed here, so this point is wholly irrelevant since this point only talks about AP

I mean, the Void was basically consuming a bunch of worlds and dimensions, right?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean, the Void was basically consuming a bunch of worlds and dimensions, right?

Yes, but not the miniature voids used by Count Bleck.

 

[Omnificence]

That being said, in the interest of maintaining a healthy discussion, I’d like to ask you to stop with responses like this just as I asked Omnificence to quit it with the accusations.

BTW, I wasn't accusing anyone of bias; I was being sarcastic due to my past few recent months of crippling depression following a scam I lost thousands of dollars in. So, believe it or not, that whole idea of you claiming I'm accusing you of bias is something "you made up in your mind."

Infinite Multi Base Mario and Infinite Speed boogeymen….

Obviously I disagree with that, even as a Mario Bros supporter.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Lord have mercy

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Paper Mario w/ Pure Hearts changes:​

Immeasurable Lifting Strength: Can resist the pull within the Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. These Voids are superior to the potency of the main Void that was pulling in all the multiverse’s entire dimensions, which include space-time continuums. This is proven by these Voids harming the durability of the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts, in which they are able to in turn harm Super Dimentio with their physical might, who himself planned on surviving the main Void that was consuming the multiverse even in his weakened state with his innate durability and only finally accepted defeat when the heroes killed him.

Infinite Speed: Can dodge and move faster than Voids used by a serious Count Bleck during the boss battle. The main Void consuming the multiverse is shown to be spreading at an infinite speed and rate; shown to expand within all of the infinite universes in the multiverse in a finite amount of time.

Count Bleck changes:​

Infinite Speed: He scales to the four heroes empowered by Pure Hearts in speed when empowered by the Chaos Heart as he is shown to move faster than the Voids he uses when he gets serious.

The conclusions can be reasonable, but the reasoning that you presented is very questionable, so I recommend that you please change the reasoning of the proposed revision based on my upcoming descriptions.

It would make very little sense for a basic attack that Count Bleck was able to do on a whim to have the same or more potency as the entire grand pool of energy that it came from, which was hyped up for the entire game to be something outstandingly menacing that would grow and eventually cause the destruction of everything, including the heroes, unless they went on a long adventure to other universes. Despite the small Voids and the main Void being the same element, they aren't portrayed in the same way at all, including how destructive they are. The small Voids were a fraction of the Chaos Heart's true extent that had the form of the main interdimensional Void that was written to be the multiversal conflict of the story that would ultimately be stopped by the main characters. A story written as adeptly as Super Paper Mario wouldn't have a villain's capabilities be written in the counterintuitive way that you proposed without there being a good reason.

Anyway, I think that the conclusions themselves can be reached properly in a different way, as listed and explained below.

• Immeasurable Lifting Strength for Pure Hearts users and Chaos Heart users: It's implied by the justification that's already in place for the "Attack Potency" stat. The justification would need to be phrased differently for each character, but it's fundamentally all the same. The characters gained the physical strength sufficient to destroy all realities like the (main) Void would have, and the main Void would've done so by pulling in dimensions and space-time continuums. That pulling was the main reason for why it was a threat. If that pulling proved that the Void had immeasurable lifting strength, then it should apply to characters who have its strength.
  • Keep in mind that the protection that Super Dimentio gained from the Chaos Heart that prevented him from being stunned by attacks wasn't just a shield, it was him becoming invincible, so the Pure Heart nullifying that and being able to let Super Dimentio become prone to being stunned by attacks, as well as the Chaos Heart having equal potency as the Pure Hearts, both of which are already regarded by the VS Battles Wiki as being able to grant the user infinite 4D power, can suggest that the lifting strength is relevant. Denting what ties a character together is attack potency, but knocking back a character who tries to prevent that is lifting strength.
• Infinite Speed for Pure Hearts users and Chaos Heart users: It can be implied by my proposed justification for the "Lifting Strength" stat or even just as a result of generally obtaining the Void's power to destroy all realities. Simply put, a character can't pull things nor "destroy all realities" across an infinite distance without some sort of infinite movement capability. I think that this capability shouldn't be regarded as the default speed, given how slow the Void was at consuming all realities, but it's definitely either "up to Infinite speed" or some sort of other ability that allows for infinite distance nullification.

The force of the Pure Hearts are a positive version of the negative force of the Chaos Heart. The two are meant to be opposites. The Pure Hearts are designed to counteract the Chaos Heart according to the Light Prognosticus, and it turned out to be true as seen by how the Pure Hearts can defeat protection created by the Chaos Heart that are meant to make the defended invincible. Thus, a user of the Pure Hearts should have the potential to achieve the opposite of the Chaos Heart on the same scale, even if the Pure Hearts didn't physically show in an extremely clear way that they're comparable to the Chaos Heart. If the Chaos Heart allows destruction across an infinite distance, then the Pure Hearts should allow purification across an infinite distance.

[Count Bleck changes:]​

Resistance Negation: For force fields and attack reflection with his Void attacks; being able to bypass the forcefield power-up (normally supposed to make the user “invincible”) and being able to ignore Barry’s reflection ability upon contact, which intentionally works on enemy projectiles in the game.

Super Dimentio changes:​

Infinite Speed: He scales to the four heroes empowered by the Pure Hearts as he’s shown being relative to their speed in that key. He can even move faster than Count Bleck with his jump attack in his boss fight.

Resistance Negation: For force fields and attack reflection for the same reasons as Count Bleck with having the same powers available from the Chaos Heart as the "ideal host" for its powers to create Voids.

With my previous clarifications about the reasoning, I accept the conclusions here without the need to clarify further.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

The characters gained the physical strength sufficient to destroy all realities like the (main) Void would have, and the main Void would've done so by pulling in dimensions and space-time continuums.

There is no indication that the characters gained physical strength from the Pure Hearts. As far as I recall, the only thing it did was break Count Bleck's shield and Super Dimentio's invulnerability (and heal the heroes).

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

There is no indication that the characters gained physical strength from the Pure Hearts. As far as I recall, the only thing it did was break Count Bleck's shield and Super Dimentio's invulnerability (and heal the heroes).

There is an indication. After the playable character got healed, Tippi said: "Now's our chance... The Pure Hearts have given us power! Let's get him!"

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

There is an indication. After the playable character got healed, Tippi said: "Now's our chance... The Pure Hearts have given us power! Let's get him!"

Fair, but I do think it might refer to the heal.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Fair, but I do think it might refer to the heal.

That's indeed possible; the word "power" can mean a lot of things. However, I would prioritize the interpretation that strength was gained in this case, since the word "power" in a battle tends to refer to taking action rather than something for protection like health points.

 

[LuckyEmile]

The conclusions can be reasonable, but the reasoning that you presented is very questionable, so I recommend that you please change the reasoning of the proposed revision based on my upcoming descriptions.

It would make very little sense for a basic attack that Count Bleck was able to do on a whim to have the same or more potency as the entire grand pool of energy that it came from, which was hyped up for the entire game to be something outstandingly menacing that would grow and eventually cause the destruction of everything, including the heroes, unless they went on a long adventure to other universes. Despite the small Voids and the main Void being the same element, they aren't portrayed in the same way at all, including how destructive they are. The small Voids were a fraction of the Chaos Heart's true extent that had the form of the main interdimensional Void that was written to be the multiversal conflict of the story that would ultimately be stopped by the main characters. A story written as adeptly as Super Paper Mario wouldn't have a villain's capabilities be written in the counterintuitive way that you proposed without there being a good reason.

Anyway, I think that the conclusions themselves can be reached properly in a different way, as listed and explained below.

• Immeasurable Lifting Strength for Pure Hearts users and Chaos Heart users:It's implied by the justification that's already in place for the "Attack Potency" stat. The justification would need to be phrased differently for each character, but it's fundamentally all the same. The characters gained the physical strength sufficient to destroy all realities like the (main) Void would have, and the main Void would've done so by pulling in dimensions and space-time continuums. That pulling was the main reason for why it was a threat. If that pulling proved that the Void had immeasurable lifting strength, then it should apply to characters who have its strength.
  • Keep in mind that the protection that Super Dimentio gained from the Chaos Heart that prevented him from being stunned by attacks wasn't just a shield, it was him becoming invincible, so the Pure Heart nullifying that and being able to let Super Dimentio become prone to being stunned by attacks, as well as the Chaos Heart having equal potency as the Pure Hearts, both of which are already regarded by the VS Battles Wiki as being able to grant the user infinite 4D power, can suggest that the lifting strength is relevant. Denting what ties a character together is attack potency, but knocking back a character who tries to prevent that is lifting strength.
• Infinite Speed for Pure Hearts users and Chaos Heart users: It can be implied by my proposed justification for the "Lifting Strength" stat or even just as a result of generally obtaining the Void's power to destroy all realities. Simply put, a character can't pull things nor "destroy all realities" across an infinite distance without some sort of infinite movement capability. I think that this capability shouldn't be regarded as the default speed, given how slow the Void was at consuming all realities, but it's definitely either "up to Infinite speed" or some sort of other ability that allows for infinite distance nullification.

The force of the Pure Hearts are a positive version of the negative force of the Chaos Heart. The two are meant to be opposites. The Pure Hearts are designed to counteract the Chaos Heart according to the Light Prognosticus, and it turned out to be true as seen by how the Pure Hearts can defeat protection created by the Chaos Heart that are meant to make the defended invincible. Thus, a user of the Pure Hearts should have the potential to achieve the opposite of the Chaos Heart on the same scale, even if the Pure Hearts didn't physically show in an extremely clear way that they're comparable to the Chaos Heart. If the Chaos Heart allows destruction across an infinite distance, then the Pure Hearts should allow purification across an infinite distance.

With my previous clarifications about the reasoning, I accept the conclusions here without the need to clarify further.

Sounds like a good idea for revisions!

 

[Omnificence]

The conclusions can be reasonable, but the reasoning that you presented is very questionable, so I recommend that you please change the reasoning of the proposed revision based on my upcoming descriptions.

It would make very little sense for a basic attack that Count Bleck was able to do on a whim to have the same or more potency as the entire grand pool of energy that it came from, which was hyped up for the entire game to be something outstandingly menacing that would grow and eventually cause the destruction of everything, including the heroes, unless they went on a long adventure to other universes. Despite the small Voids and the main Void being the same element, they aren't portrayed in the same way at all, including how destructive they are. The small Voids were a fraction of the Chaos Heart's true extent that had the form of the main interdimensional Void that was written to be the multiversal conflict of the story that would ultimately be stopped by the main characters. A story written as adeptly as Super Paper Mario wouldn't have a villain's capabilities be written in the counterintuitive way that you proposed without there being a good reason.

Anyway, I think that the conclusions themselves can be reached properly in a different way, as listed and explained below.

• Immeasurable Lifting Strength for Pure Hearts users and Chaos Heart users:It's implied by the justification that's already in place for the "Attack Potency" stat. The justification would need to be phrased differently for each character, but it's fundamentally all the same. The characters gained the physical strength sufficient to destroy all realities like the (main) Void would have, and the main Void would've done so by pulling in dimensions and space-time continuums. That pulling was the main reason for why it was a threat. If that pulling proved that the Void had immeasurable lifting strength, then it should apply to characters who have its strength.
  • Keep in mind that the protection that Super Dimentio gained from the Chaos Heart that prevented him from being stunned by attacks wasn't just a shield, it was him becoming invincible, so the Pure Heart nullifying that and being able to let Super Dimentio become prone to being stunned by attacks, as well as the Chaos Heart having equal potency as the Pure Hearts, both of which are already regarded by the VS Battles Wiki as being able to grant the user infinite 4D power, can suggest that the lifting strength is relevant. Denting what ties a character together is attack potency, but knocking back a character who tries to prevent that is lifting strength.
• Infinite Speed for Pure Hearts users and Chaos Heart users: It can be implied by my proposed justification for the "Lifting Strength" stat or even just as a result of generally obtaining the Void's power to destroy all realities. Simply put, a character can't pull things nor "destroy all realities" across an infinite distance without some sort of infinite movement capability. I think that this capability shouldn't be regarded as the default speed, given how slow the Void was at consuming all realities, but it's definitely either "up to Infinite speed" or some sort of other ability that allows for infinite distance nullification.

The force of the Pure Hearts are a positive version of the negative force of the Chaos Heart. The two are meant to be opposites. The Pure Hearts are designed to counteract the Chaos Heart according to the Light Prognosticus, and it turned out to be true as seen by how the Pure Hearts can defeat protection created by the Chaos Heart that are meant to make the defended invincible. Thus, a user of the Pure Hearts should have the potential to achieve the opposite of the Chaos Heart on the same scale, even if the Pure Hearts didn't physically show in an extremely clear way that they're comparable to the Chaos Heart. If the Chaos Heart allows destruction across an infinite distance, then the Pure Hearts should allow purification across an infinite distance.

With my previous clarifications about the reasoning, I accept the conclusions here without the need to clarify further.

Sounds like a good idea for revisions!

Well... yeah. I disagree with base Paper Mario getting infinite speed and immeasurable lifting strength, so I think it'd make more sense to give it to him with his Pure Hearts key.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

That's indeed possible; the word "power" can mean a lot of things. However, I would prioritize the interpretation that strength was gained in this case, since the word "power" in a battle tends to refer to taking action rather than something for protection like health points.

Even if the heroes did get a power boost, how do we know that it's comparable to the Void? The main thing the Pure Hearts do is break the Chaos Heart's barriers.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Even if the heroes did get a power boost, how do we know that it's comparable to the Void? The main thing the Pure Hearts do is break the Chaos Heart's barriers.

I think that it would be odd for the Pure Hearts to have given a power boost without it being enough to fight Super Dimentio, despite the Pure Hearts being designed to counteract the capabilities of the Chaos Heart. When Dimentio creates his ultimate form using Luigi and the Chaos Heart, his dialogue before gameplay starts gives me the impression that he would use immense power, without relying on the Void as a separate entity from him, but including the Chaos Heart's power to destroy all realities. Upon defeat, Dimentio even asked: "How could I have lost with the power of Luigi and the Chaos Heart...[?]", implying that he was using the power of the Chaos Heart in a way that was relevant to the battle and that he thought would've made it impossible for him to lose, yet the heroes still had benefited from the power boost from the Pure Hearts during the fight.

If you disagree with Super Dimentio being physically as strong as the Void, then it should be discussed in a different thread. The idea that Super Dimentio was using the Chaos Heart's power of multiversal mass destruction is already accepted information by the VS Battles Wiki, as seen by the Multiverse level+ ranks for him, as well as for Count Bleck and for the heroes when they use the Pure Hearts. Even if it's incorrect, this thread is just trying to apply lifting strength and speed stats in accordance to the already accepted information, especially in the case that my improved justification is considered. If this thread gets rejected, the Multiverse level+ ranks won't go anywhere, and the profiles would be kind of incomplete.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Neutral on this. Also every recent mario thread is so uncivil. No wonder why mods and others rarely get to participate. Change that. You know who you are. Most of you are young adults (including me) act like it.