GERs Speed is outdated

[Hasch]

Stans don't scale linearly like that.

 

[Thelastmlg]

stans lmao

the stats there refer to his ability, not his stats, so scaling him to them because of that doesn't work.

 

[Elizhaa]

as existing stand we have mih and big who all have infinite speed

Enrico Pucci's MIH speed is eventually infinite not infinite. Notorious B.I.G's speed is rated as varied and the infinite statement is rated as a hyperbole.

I don't see a solid reason why GER's speed would be infinite given these points.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Considering all the points here, I think that the downgrade is fine. GER's speed should be MFTL. We can also use "At least" and "likely far higher", since GER is far, far stronger than the normal Stands, as the scans above says, and he easily defeated King Crimson.

 

[Hasty12345]

agree with downgrade FRA

 

[Shadyboi0]

Downgrade FRA

 

[FaZe_Liam]

Agree with Downgrade FRA

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Diavolo pointed out only he is able to move in time erase, GER wasnt affected by it at all and the others were

Its already established in the series what Diavolo sees in time erase are forecasts of the actions that were gonna happen from the others, regardless of time erase or not, let alone the fact aerosmith bullets go through Diavolo, further supporting they are forecasts only, GER beimg able to speak and do his ability and work inside such a place should tell a lot

The scan also points out attack power, along physical stuff like power and speed greatly increased, let alone you cant tell the stats with "None" refer to his ability and not physical stuff

MiH still has infinite in there, not A or anything, BIG its said he matches others speed so its entirely wrong

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also it says "cannot be measured in the same way as existing stands", that points out in comparison to the stands in stats, unless you wanna claim the stand stats are reffering to their abilities, which isnt the case

 

[Thelastmlg]

The stats saying "infinite" means nothing if the stand doesn't have infinite speed all the time, MIH gets faster infinitely, he isn't infinitely fast.

The scan clearly says that the stats are none because his ability doesn't belong in the same place as other stand abilities, so yes it is the case, stand stats have shifted between their abilities and physical stats.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Irrelevant, doesnt mean he isnt above his best speed, rating still puts infinite there, not A or A eventually infinite

Precision and strength arent things related to an ability dont start, also once again wrong, Whitesnake has only the D rating on speed related to an ability, the rest are his physicals, so your interpretation falls flat

Power and speed are mentioned to have being greatly increased, talking of physicals, so he scales above any rating from other stand stats on that

 

[Chariot190]

Ill respond later, sorry I cant do it right now.

 

[Eficiente]

Diavolo pointed out only he is able to move in time erase, GER wasnt affected by it at all and the others were

Being able to move where you shouldn't isn't necessarily Infinite speed, that would be the biggest assumption we could make. Everything lacked time to move and being able to move could much more simply require to not follow the same logic as needing time to move. This doesn't inhereditary translate to Infinite speed in the same way it doesn't translate to not following other concepts aside from time, logic is just be ignored in one specific way. Also yes, you ignored how I reminded above how GER was affected by it until its powers kicked in.

Its already established in the series what Diavolo sees in time erase are forecasts of the actions that were gonna happen from the others, regardless of time erase or not, let alone the fact aerosmith bullets go through Diavolo, further supporting they are forecasts only, GER beimg able to speak and do his ability and work inside such a place should tell a lot

No, it doesn't. You don't neither, it just sounds fancy.

unless you wanna claim the stand stats are reffering to their abilities, which isnt the case

It's both their abilities and physicality, but mostly the former. That's most consistent with all the Stand stats and doesn't actually get contradicted by anything as, for example, a Stand with an A in speed and "no speed" in its "1 ability all Stands have" may still have super speed as an ability pointed out by characters. That's why overall physicality isn't talked about much but very specific stats in it are like abilities the Stands have.

rating still puts infinite there, not A or A eventually infinite

You're are correct, but you're also expecting way to much for a secondary source of information made in a simple way and not always consistent. MiH's stats should technically be "A, eventually Infinite", or just not Infinite at all as MiH and Pucci move at normal speeds while time gets messed up.

Power and speed are mentioned to have being greatly increased, talking of physicals, so he scales above any rating from other stand stats on that

Or, power and speed are greatly increased, thereby it is higher into the tier and speed it had as GE. Its ability being other thing not having to do something with it.

Ill respond later, sorry I cant do it right now.

Take your time, we're not gonna be done with this without you making your points. But when you do comment, please try to get to the point and not say things many times over.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ofc you would reply and not debunk anything in actuality

1) you just babbling here, you didnt debunk how it isnt, also you have no proof he was affected, if he was he wouldnt be able to pull rtz in the first place, he has to be aware and be able to move as well like Diavolo

2)so you ignore proof and whats established, thanks for the ignorance, the series goes against your personal opinion on that

3) "mostly the former", not even unless its told or pointed clearly, its talking of physicals unless you wanna tell me Star Platinum, who isnt really much of a haxed stand, has A in stats for abilities and not physicals, even Dio compared The World with Star Platinum by physicals and not abilities, so wrong in this, let alone one like Whitesnake is rated D only for his ability speed, the rest not

4) what you think its better isnt your absolute answer over an official thing that is in the manga present, still doesnt change MiH best speed is infinite and below is casual stuff for him, so the scaling isnt changing

5) headcanon, thanks again for ignorance, the None rating wouldnt imply just over GE, especially since King Crimson, around the league of the strongest close range stands got stomped badly by it, couldnt even see or react to GER on its own, let alone have its face not destroyed by the punches

Gonna let Chariot handle this, since he was the one who planned to defend it in the 1st place

 

[Eficiente]

1) you just babbling here, you didnt debunk how it isnt, also you have no proof he was affected, if he was he wouldnt be able to pull rtz in the first place, he has to be aware and be able to move as well like Diavolo

Yes I did, please read it again, or ask someone privately to tell you. I don't need proof of GER not being affected due to we visually seeing it being affected and not moving before its ability kicked in. You don't seem to be aware about the possibility of GER's ability acting on its own, added to the first thing I said that you didn't understand.

2)so you ignore proof and whats established, thanks for the ignorance, the series goes against your personal opinion on that

I meant it on the "GER being able to speak and do his ability and work inside such a place should tell a lot", you were not precisely pointing out why that's Infinite speed (which given our new standards for it, you really should have), it more so looked like you wanted others to get into the idea of GER having it in a hollow matter. In your reply here it even more so looks like getting into the people is some kind of priority you allow yourself to have, which you shouldn't;

• The type of people who would see that as fine don't have many reasons to be reliable
• It wastes time to say things like "thanks for the ignorance" and the like when you can just state you reasons and make the important parts of the debate smoother.
• It can be considered rude.

3) "mostly the former", not even unless its told or pointed clearly, its talking of physicals unless you wanna tell me Star Platinum, who isnt really much of a haxed stand, has A in stats for abilities and not physicals, even Dio compared The World with Star Platinum by physicals and not abilities, so wrong in this, let alone one like Whitesnake is rated D only for his ability speed, the rest not

When I said "a Stand with an A in speed and "no speed" in its "1 ability all Stands have" may still have super speed as an ability pointed out by characters." I meant that yes SP has no hax, but it's pointed out many times by others how its super speed it's part of the set of things SP has going for, hence its stats had it. Poiting out what DIO said makes no sense as he didn't imply using Stand stats as the chart of it we know, so when talking about speed and power he of course means physicality. Whitesnake's own speed and D in speed support my point.

4) what you think its better isnt your absolute answer over an official thing that is in the manga present, still doesnt change MiH best speed is infinite and below is casual stuff for him, so the scaling isnt changing

You miss the point.

5) headcanon, thanks again for ignorance, the None rating wouldnt imply just over GE, especially since King Crimson, around the league of the strongest close range stands got stomped badly by it, couldnt even see or react to GER on its own, let alone have its face not destroyed by the punches

I took and take what I said as a reasonable interpretation of the info we have, and one that it's most likely that you say, a headcanon would be a whole other thing. What you say there is a jump in logic as it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of GER being somewhat stronger and faster than KC.

When Diavolo blocked GER's first attack a GER with Infinite speed should have not thrown a rock at what it should have reacted was KC's hand blocking it. Diavolo was able to see GER throwing attacks while in erased time despite how that should be too fast to show at Infinite speed in traces. In the future that was going to happen before GER changed it Diavolo taking Giorno by surprise made Diavolo move KC a bit faster than GER to attack Giorno without GER reacting to it. And GER later attacked Diavolo at reactive speeds to others.

 

[Chariot190]

KC after taking Giorno by surprise tagged him by being a moment faster (with GER being there to have done something),

In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something.

in the erased time Diavolo saw GER's moves at "slowed down" speeds, but not by an infinite amount

This part here isn't true at all, but then again, I can't even blame you for it.
Diavolo doesn't see the attacker in erased time just slowed down, he sees every action they would take, and have taken, (supposedly) simultaneously, overlapped at the same time. There's no real motion or movement in play, he's basically seeing the path of everything they would have done layed before him.
Though I definitely get the confusion in regards to this, the anime kinda ****** it completely (Funnily enough even the jojo wiki makes mention of the anime adaption potraying it differently then it should have) and the manga doesn't do the best job at portraying it consistently even if that's how it works in that iteration. Though this is of slight importance because what it actually does (in the manga at least) has zero effect on his speed.

Basically. When King Crimson deletes time, he sees every action someone would have taken in the deleted time, and he then acts accordingly, but the person in question never actually moves from where they began, what Diavolo sees could be described as numerous afterimages (Though in this case it would be "futureimages"), holograms, trails, take your pick, of everything someone will do in the timeframe deleted, but as said, there's not actually any movement going, especially not slow motion movements.
This is best shown in the initial appearance with Bruno. Where Diavolo literally says as much
"I can forecast the trails left by your movements, the trails of your future actions".
Put simply, Diavolo isn't actually watching someone move, he's basically seeing all the frames of a video layed before him, consider it like a how some fighting games have a frame by frame afterimage effect on some characters in training mode, but just in reverse.
In the example brought up as well, Bruno never actually moves at all, the location and movement he's in when the time erase begins and when it's about to end, he never actually moved.

Here's a breakdown of the first time he used it, as it's a decent example.

Here's some guide scans that mention it in passing (with one outright saying "hey it's just the trajectory that's being shown").

and it took a while for GER to move in the erased time (which is not infinite speed anyway)

Actually debatable all things considered but at that point we'd have to argue the mechanics of how RTZ is activated and the mechanics of that too. And I don't anyone wants to go down that hole.

I can agree with something much more overpowered that is GER being able to use its power in a point in time before the attacker may attack

Tbh that just comes off as an appeal to me no offense, I honestly don't really care if something is perceived as more broken or not, I just care if the profile is accurate or a downgrade or upgrade is warranted, if not to any of those then I'm going to disagree.

Anyway, as for scan (or scans if we want to discuss the mechanics of King Crimson and RTZ as a whole, but I'm going to assume we aren't going to do that).

---

Anyway.
In JoJo-A-GoGo, which Giovanna posted fortunately, there's a section in direct reference to his stats (all stands in the book have one taking about their stats and why they are the way they are), that claims that the reason why GER's stats are listed as None and not something else, is because, there's no way that the Stand stats are even capable of quantifying his abilities with a scale that other stands use.
Of course one could say "It's talking about his ability RTZ", which is half true, the line is explicitly talking about all his stats, but it does make mention of RTZ, but that doesn't mean RTZ is what it's talking about in the first line nor is all his stats being None a representation of RTZ and not his own abilities (Attack Power is a blatant example of it being None, because it definitely aint talking about RTZ, given RTZ has zero offensive capability and the same guide says GER's attack power is the highest among all Stands and as such can even be considered the Ultimate Stand even disregarding RTZ).

To clarify what I said above about attack power, in the same guide it says that GER's attack output exceeds all existing Stands (which doesn't really do anything but clarify the "His stats straight up can't be quantified compared to other Stands, because they're simply above them" is legit given one such stat is outright stated to exceed every other Stand in the very same book).

Ergo, GER's speed > BIG and MIH as both are able to be quantified with the Stand stats, of which they're granted Infinity for various reasons and GER, on the contrary, GER is listed as None, because of being impossible to compare to existing Stands via superiority.

Do they start out infinite? Well BIG might depending on how you think it functions, but MIH takes awhile, but that doesn't actually change the fact that they can hit infinite and it can be quantified even still and their stats are them at their best, not initially, but GER's speed still can't.
The whole "MIH doesn't start out infinite so it doesn't count" is completely irrelevant, because his stats are talking about MIH when he does hit infinite, which is kinda why his speed is listed as "Infinite" in the first place.

Also I'd still argue the time erase feat is legit but that'd have to involve deconstructing and explaining the exact mechanics of King Crimson and it's interaction with time and the real world outside of its ability and I don't know if that's a hole we want to go down, hell I don't know if that's a hole even I wnat gto go down, it's a meme for a reason after all.

Now, I see it's being said that the None is referring to his ability, not his stats, which is half true, it's a mix of both. (Though Staying is usually the "Ability Stat").

---

Also, because it was mentioned, the profile saying that BIG's stat can be translated as Unlimited and thus could be hyperbole is really true.
The original japanese scans list BIG's speed, Staying and Range as all Infinite (Staying because it's immortal and can't die and will just resurrect itself or regen if killed and range because it isn't attached to a host and thus isn't bound to anything and can go as far or anywhere it wants). There's no possible way to translate it different, because the scans use the mathematical Infinity symbol that I'm sure we're all used to and are well aware of, and you kinda can't translate a symbol that is literally defined as being the mathematical universal symbol for infinity across most known languages to mean anything but Infinity. Tbh, I don't even know why that's on the profile, I couldn't find a CRT on it or even a Q&A about it.

Here's every iteration of BIG's stats that I could find, as well as a comparison. In case there was any doubt.

---

I guess I should also comment on the notion of "Diavolo said GER was just a power up in regards to stats". He did say that, but he said that while being bordering on denial and desperation and only after having being blitzed to an impossible degree (To the point he probably didn't even realize he was blitzed) and being unable to even react properly without aim dodging and precognizing the aftermath of a simple pebble he flicked.
Diavolo was going off GER being just a big power up off of GER casually flicking a pebble so hard he couldn't perceive it and it blew a hole through his hand and still had enough force to cave in the side of a building, all the while in denial and desperate at the fact he's suddenly at a huge disadvantage and trying to convince himself he still is winning and invincible. Spoiler warning, he learned the hard way he wasn't shit. GER is more than just a simple power up in regards to physicals is my point here, GE and GER aren't even in the same ballpark at the absolute worst.

Stans don't scale linearly like that.

In this situation, if we're told that a Stand is above every other Stand that it outright can't be quantified, it's above every other Stand. This isn't the same situation as "Star Platinum and Kiss both have an A in attack so that means they both are equally as strong", no, there's way more in play in regards to them or other stands, especially when stats are more like benchmarks and tiers kinda like how we use tiers, two tier 4's may both be tier 4 but not 100% equal, here it's just a simple "He's above them", ergo, he's above whatever they get. Straightforward.

The type of people who would see that as fine don't have many reasons to be reliable

That's extremely uncalled for if you're saying what I think you're saying.

---

Now, to list off/summarize the current points without actually getting into the clusterfuck that is King Crimson.

1. GER could act and react in erased time. (Not considered a valid feat anymore as per standards, though pretty sure it still checks out if you actually go through the effort of deconstructing how the ability works as a whole and how it interacts with the world, but ignore this point if you want).

2. Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't die was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph).

3. GER's stats are listed as "None", because it's impossible to measure its stats the way other Stands are quantified. Of course one could argue semantics in regards to this, but at the end of the day at least some facet of it is above MIH and BIG, as those two can be quantified, both of which are rated as Infinite due to their best capacity. Infinite is something that can be quantified but GER's speed can not. And yes, that line is explicitly talking about his stats and in the same guide it goes on to say that GER's attack output exceeds every Stand (Which only serves to clarify why his Attack stat is None and can't be measured, because it's to damn high).

4. For what it's worth, GER managed to casually blitz a bloodlusted MIH in the thing that shall not be named.

Regardless, even if you ignore the time erase moving feat, GER still scales above MIH and BIG as GER's stats are impossible to measure while MIH and BIG can, in which they're infinite. (And to clarify one final time, Big is a bit funky in how it functions but MIH is explicitly capable of reaching Infinite speeds and as such is granted an Infinite rating to convey that, as that's literally what it is).

At the very least, something is infinite, something about GER's speed is above every other Stand. Even if, for some reason, you want to say it doesn't apply to his physical stats, which is, best case scenario, subjective and open to interpretation, it would at the very least mean RTZ is infinite in speed if one wants to say it's strictly talking about his ability which I can understand the thinking behind even if I'm not entirely on board with it, but something is infinite.

The best I can do is "At least Massively FTL, likely higher" due to being completely imperceivable to what is essentially a God Tier speed Stand. And "Infinite with RTZ", due to, at the very least, that scaling above infinite Stands among other things even if you say it's strictly only talking about the ability.
Ergo, "At least Massively FTL, likely higher, Infinite with RTZ".
Best I can do here, though tbh I still think GER itself warrants Infinite as a whole for several reasons but eh, I really can't afford to argue this right now, bordering on outright can't argue (Im only gonna be able to respond like once or twice a day here if this drags on).

anyway.
Here's the scans I posted in one place.
BIG scans. (Mostly just a bunch of inifinte's, a comparison and some explanations).
King Crimson Bruno scene. (Minor breakdown of it in case it's confusing).
King Crimson trajectory forecast misc info (Nothing drastic, just a few scans).
MIH stats. (Literally just two scans).
The JoJo-A-GoGo GER scan (already posted).

 

[Hasch]

Yeah, all GER did was negate KC with a stronger reality warping, aside from that at no point it shows or it's stated to have infinite speed. If it had infinite speed it would attack Diavolo in 0 time which it didn't, and it wouldn't be posible for KC to be faster in the potential future Epitaph saw.

That's the whole point of the "never get to the future" dialogue.



The "can't be measured in the same way other stands" bit is because of it's skill, if a system has a "infinite speed" grade and something can be described in that system then it's not speed, its GER ability.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, all GER did was negate KC with a stronger reality warping, aside from that at no point it shows or it's stated to have infinite speed. If it had infinite speed it would attack Diavolo in 0 time which it didn't, and it wouldn't be posible for KC to be faster in the potential future Epitaph saw.

You're acting like GER negating King Crimson's ability invalidates anything said here, it's a literal nonfactor to the main point. At no point was it shown or stated to have infinite speed? The former is debatable and the latter is a half truth. If it had infinite speed he would have attacked Diavolo in zero time? He technically did tbh, but then again, how do you convey infinite speed in a medium like that? By simply having the character do something so fast that it's not even drawn and shown? Well that actually does happen in regards to GER anyway so either way. It wouldn't be possible for King Crimson to be faster in the future Epitaph saw if GER was that fast? It wouldn't be possible even if GER wasn't infinite because it's shown multiple times to us King Crimson doesn't have a chance in hell to comparing to GER in speed. You're right, because he wasn't faster. In case you missed it.

"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."

And

"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."

Don't bring up points that have already been covered without bringing any new information to the table, all you said was he was faster then GER in Epitaph so GER can't be a certain speed, which is based on Diavolo's assumption of "Oh Epitaph shows me with my fist through Giorno's chest, that must mean I was a moment faster haha I win", which is definitely not the case and truth of the situation, made even worse as Diavolo making bold assumptions on what he's seeing in Epitaph and in regards to GER is a consistent reocurring thing throughout the entire scene, everything Diavolo is saying is supposed to be wrong or at least not even close to the full picture, because he's desperate and in denial and is grasping at straws trying to justify his invincibility against a losing situation and that's completely ignoring he's been shown assuming and being incorrect before in regards to his visions and even then, it wouldn't matter, Epitaph doesn't care if something is possible. if it shows something, that something will occur even if it's technically an impossibility to have occurred, hell, Diavolo even abuses the guaranteed nature of it to do such things like kidnapping and ripping off Trish's hand in a manner that would have been otherwise impossible, abusing the guaranteed nature of his Epitaph and the cause and effect manipulation of time skip.

That's the whole point of the "never get to the future" dialogue.

It's actually "Never reach the truth". which isn't talking about the future per say, it's talking about cause and effect as a whole, even past tense in some situations. You're misinterpreting what it says and even changing the wording used.

The "can't be measured in the same way other stands" bit is because of it's skill, if a system has a "infinite speed" grade and something can be described in that system then it's not speed, its GER ability.

It's both actually, and even then, as said, in the post directly above yours, even if you want to say it's talking about his ability (which is open to interpretation so it's ok to have your opinion on this as I do mine and neither of us are technically 100% right due to wording and lack of exact specifications), but, even if it's talking about his ability, all that would mean is that RTZ has Infinite speed worse case scenario because something does.
Which, again, as said directly above you, best I can do is "At least Massively FTL, likely higher, Infinite with RTZ". If we assume it's strictly talking about RTZ for every single stat, which is wrong fyi, (His attack power being None for example has nothing to do with RTZ, but something like Range very well could be RTZ specific for example due to it having the highest range shown to us by any Stand ability bar D4C, who's stand stat range is his manifestation range not his ability range so it adds up still (Though even then, you could still argue), not to mention some translations pluralize the subject in the quote meaning it's talking about more than just RTZ depending on what translation we use, it's hard to say, all we can say for certain is that GER exceeds every Stand in every category, somehow, but this does indeed mean that GER's speed, at least some facet of it, is infinite, is it his physicals? Is it his ability? That's open to interpretation but one of them is regardless of what you choose to believe).

Now please don't waste time bringing up points that have already been directly touched upon, unless you have new information to bring in regards to it because I really don't want to clog up the thread with back and forth repeating of the exact same points over and over again, not to mention lack of availability.

 

[Ionliosite]

... Can someone explain me why should use the famously inaccurate Stand Stats as the entire basis for scaling GER? In fact, BIG being Infinite speed is directly contradicted by the series actually explaining how its speed works (it's just faster than whoever it follows), while Made in Heaven is objectively not Infinite all the time, but only when it reaches the top of its acceleration, so scaling GER to it is also questionable.

 

[Chariot190]

... Can someone explain me why should use the famously inaccurate Stand Stats as the entire basis for scaling GER? In fact, BIG being Infinite speed is directly contradicted by the series actually explaining how its speed works (it's just faster than whoever it follows), while Made in Heaven is objectively not Infinite all the time, but only when it reaches the top of its acceleration, so scaling GER to it is also questionable.

Because this isn't basic Stand stat scaling? This isn't "Oh these two stands have an A and a B so the A is > the B" or "These two Stands both have a B so they're equal". It's "Hey this Stand literally can't even be compared to any other Stand ever and that's why it has None in all stats", which is basically just a roundabout way of saying GER is the ultimate stand and scales above everything. Also we use stand stats outside of the A,B,C shit, that's the only part of the stats we don't use due to vagueness and a few other factors.

BIG being infinite speed isn't contradicted in the slightest, in fact, I'm going to say point blank it doesn't even copy a target's speed because that's not listed in any guide as something it actually does or a power it has and is based on a single line from Giorno. The only thing that says BIG copies a target's speed is one line from Giorno, who's simply guessing on how it works from a few interactions he seen from it. Not that it would matter because the way BIG acts is demonstrably not the exact thing Giorno claims he deduces (BIG is always faster then a prioritized target, not just the same speed so it's already demonstrably wrong).

Thus, BIG is Infinite speed, why? Because he's said to be Infinite speed numerous times over, there's no real contradiction to it, the only other Stand who's given the same rating is absolutely confirmed infinite in speed thus there's actual integrity to the rating and the only thing that may suggest otherwise is possibly open to interpretation given context and outside info, worse case scenario it just means BIG is infinite under certain circumstances which is sus but wouldn't actually change the fact that he can indeed hit infinite under some qualifications and is being rated at his best like MIH.
And MIH not being infinite all the literally does not matter at all, it's completely irrelevant. MIH's stat is quite literally infinite, his stat isn't judging him initially or over time, it's taking his peak speed and applying that to the stat. Same goes for BIG, the mechanics of how it reaches infinite speed or not doesn't matter either, all that matters is if their stats are listed as Infinite, and they are, ergo, if Infinite is a speed that can be measured on the stand scale and said Stands are granted that rating for their best, then Ger scales in some facet.

I honestly dont get the "MIH doesnt start off infinite so it doesnt count" points, it doesnt matter what he starts off as, all that matters is that he can reach it and he's granted the infinite rating for being able to eventually hit infinite speeds and his rating is portraying him at his best, his top speed, same goes with BIG. I posted enough scans of their stats and guides above.

Edit: Im checking the Japanese BIG raws to see exactly what Giorno said.
Edit 2: If the translation is correct he says "The faster the speed, the faster it will be tracked with the highest priority". Nothing about matching or copying a speed, which leads me to believe BIG just acts funky due to it's rules as a auto-pilot, and it keeps up with everything by simply being fast enough to do so.

 

[Eficiente]

I'll likely be agreeing with "At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero", emphasis on the RtZ being attack speed and the likely higher for its normal speed not being there, I'll get to why later after commenting.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll likely be agreeing with "At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero", emphasis on the RtZ being attack speed and the likely higher for its normal speed not being there, I'll get to why later after commenting.

Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.

Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.

Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.

I agree with this.

 

[Hasch]

You're acting like GER negating King Crimson's ability invalidates anything said here, it's a literal nonfactor to the main point. At no point was it shown or stated to have infinite speed? The former is debatable and the latter is a half truth. If it had infinite speed he would have attacked Diavolo in zero time? He technically did tbh, but then again, how do you convey infinite speed in a medium like that? By simply having the character do something so fast that it's not even drawn and shown? Well that actually does happen in regards to GER anyway so either way. It wouldn't be possible for King Crimson to be faster in the future Epitaph saw if GER was that fast? It wouldn't be possible even if GER wasn't infinite because it's shown multiple times to us King Crimson doesn't have a chance in hell to comparing to GER in speed. You're right, because he wasn't faster. In case you missed it.

"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."

And

"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."

Don't bring up points that have already been covered without bringing any new information to the table, all you said was he was faster then GER in Epitaph so GER can't be a certain speed, which is based on Diavolo's assumption of "Oh Epitaph shows me with my fist through Giorno's chest, that must mean I was a moment faster haha I win", which is definitely not the case and truth of the situation, made even worse as Diavolo making bold assumptions on what he's seeing in Epitaph and in regards to GER is a consistent reocurring thing throughout the entire scene, everything Diavolo is saying is supposed to be wrong or at least not even close to the full picture, because he's desperate and in denial and is grasping at straws trying to justify his invincibility against a losing situation and that's completely ignoring he's been shown assuming and being incorrect before in regards to his visions and even then, it wouldn't matter, Epitaph doesn't care if something is possible. if it shows something, that something will occur even if it's technically an impossibility to have occurred, hell, Diavolo even abuses the guaranteed nature of it to do such things like kidnapping and ripping off Trish's hand in a manner that would have been otherwise impossible, abusing the guaranteed nature of his Epitaph and the cause and effect manipulation of time skip.

That Diavolo wasn't able to see just means GER is >KC, Epitaph shows things that actually would happen no matter what and slower stands catching faster stands has happened.

No need or reason for infinite speed to be a thing.

It's actually "Never reach the truth". which isn't talking about the future per say, it's talking about cause and effect as a whole, even past tense in some situations. You're misinterpreting what it says and even changing the wording used.

The meaning in that case is future, it's "true" that KC was a bit faster but that event never happens because the cause was erased.

It's both actually, and even then, as said, in the post directly above yours, even if you want to say it's talking about his ability (which is open to interpretation so it's ok to have your opinion on this as I do mine and neither of us are technically 100% right due to wording and lack of exact specifications), but, even if it's talking about his ability, all that would mean is that RTZ has Infinite speed worse case scenario because something does.
Which, again, as said directly above you, best I can do is "At least Massively FTL, likely higher, Infinite with RTZ". If we assume it's strictly talking about RTZ for every single stat, which is wrong fyi, (His attack power being None for example has nothing to do with RTZ, but something like Range very well could be RTZ specific for example due to it having the highest range shown to us by any Stand ability bar D4C, who's stand stat range is his manifestation range not his ability range so it adds up still (Though even then, you could still argue), not to mention some translations pluralize the subject in the quote meaning it's talking about more than just RTZ depending on what translation we use, it's hard to say, all we can say for certain is that GER exceeds every Stand in every category, somehow, but this does indeed mean that GER's speed, at least some facet of it, is infinite, is it his physicals? Is it his ability? That's open to interpretation but one of them is regardless of what you choose to believe).

Now please don't waste time bringing up points that have already been directly touched upon, unless you have new information to bring in regards to it because I really don't want to clog up the thread with back and forth repeating of the exact same points over and over again, not to mention lack of availability.

No, the speed ranking is none because it doesn't use speed but causality manipulation. Same thing with it's attack power, which if it was infinite would produce effects like those of Tusk.


The fact there's an "infinite speed" rating in JoJo and it doesn't fit GER is enough to know OP is correct.

 

[Veryfunnydidlaugh]

Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.

Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.

I agree with this as well

 

[Firephoenixearl]

"At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero",

Why would return to zero be considered attack speed though?

 

[Chariot190]

That Diavolo wasn't able to see just means GER is >KC, Epitaph shows things that actually would happen no matter what and slower stands catching faster stands has happened.

Is this really your response to what I said? You didn't say a single thing that I myself haven't said in this very thread. Yes, GER is faster than King Crimson. So fast King Crimson can't see him, so fast that King Crimson literally in the midst of throwing a full power punch at full speed is so much slower in comparison that GER can literally break out of its shell, grab Giorno, heal his ass, go around Diavolo and King Crimson and begin floating in the air, to the point it just looks like they went poof and teleported. There is no situation King Crimson would ever get the drop on GER if GER was out, and if he did, GER would have allowed him to do so or simply didn't bother.
You just argued against yourself there fyi, what Epitaph shows happen no matter what, as you just said, regardless of if they're actually realistically possible to transpire, Diavolo straight up abuses this fact multiple times throughout the part to get desired effects that normally, he wouldn't be able to perform due to it being literally impossible to pull off. Is a slower Stand tagging a faster Stand possible? Depending on the circumstances sure, but even in this situation it's a complete and utter nonfactor because it's based on Diavolo's assumption of how he managed to tag Giorno (Because he only seen the end result), all the while it's literally a point throughout that entire arc for Diavolo to be talking out his ass due to his desperation and decreasing advantage, as I explained in depth above, twice, and now a third time below.

in fact I'll repeat myself, given you've said absolutely nothing I haven't already commented on in full.

"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."

And

"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."

Unless you have actual new information that I haven't directly commented upon, drop it.

No need or reason for infinite speed to be a thing.

There's plenty of reason, did you not read anything?

The meaning in that case is future, it's "true" that KC was a bit faster but that event never happens because the cause was erased.

You're blatantly spreading misinformation here, stop it. When GER says "You'll never reach the truth", he isn't saying "hey you'll never reach the future", and you outright twisting and changing the line to something never said is blatantly dishonesty if not outright lying. When GER says "You'll never reach the truth", he's talking in general, future, past, present, it doesn't matter, he's talking about actions as a whole and reality, hell he even mentions people who died and how their actions have will have consequence while Diavolo never will. The line isn't even meant to be about his powers really but rather the subtext and narrative of Part 5 as a whole, in how Diavolo always abused his powers to get a result but skipped the journey to get there, while people like Abbachio and co took the long path, that even if it was harder, they did it because it was right, plus a whole bunch of fate and meta shit about destiny and causality. It's not true because I explained why it isn't true at least 4 times now, is your entire argument here based on Diavolo saying he was a moment faster? Which is literally just him saying that in desperation based on a vision that simply showed the end result and not him actually doing it or being faster, only the aftermath and him guessing based on that? Not even Diavolo himself knew for certain if that was actually the case and your entire argument is based upon that?

No, the speed ranking is none because it doesn't use speed but causality manipulation. Same thing with it's attack power, which if it was infinite would produce effects like those of Tusk.

I'm going to be brutally honest here, you're wrong and your example is awful. The speed rating is None because, as it says, his stats simply can't be measured using the scale that other Stands use, why can't they be measured? Because GER is above them and as such his stats can't be measured with it. It's attack power is literally stated to exceed all other Stands in a completely different section, like literally, it says "Has an attack power that exceeds all Stands", or something extremely close to that, Tusk' attack power isn't infinite, in fact he's barely Star Platinum level when it comes to raw physical strength, the thing that is infinite is the spin, not Tusk itself, with the spin being a completely separate entity from Tusk Act 4, Tusk can just weaponize it, Johnny eventually even learns how to manifest Tusk Act 4 without his horse and shit to give you an idea, which is probably why Tusk only has an A in attack power, not Infinity or anything even close to that, because the infinity thing in question isn't the Stand, same goes with the range for Act 4 despite the Infinite Spin having Multiversal range.
The speed rating isn't "none" because it's causality manipulation, you're blatantly making that up and assuming that to be the case when nothing implies that, in fact, what it actually says doesn't convey that at all, especially when every stat is listed as None, not just speed, they're ALL None, because they're all impossible to compare to any other stand due to superiority.

he fact there's an "infinite speed" rating in JoJo and it doesn't fit GER is enough to know OP is correct.

Based on what? Nothing you've said here is anything new, in fact you simply repeated yourself and in some cases, repeated what I myself said. As said above, if you can't bring any actual new information to the table, don't, all you're doing is clogging up the thread with info already discussed in full and forcing more long ass explanations that are redundant as ****. If you do have new info, go ahead, new info is always good, but the same thing over and over? No, I, nor what I assume to be most others, have the time for that.


As I said above.

"At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ".

Earl does bring up a point in it being worded as attack speed being odd, because RTZ technically isn't an attack nor has proper offensive utility. Technically it'd be infinite activation and functionality speed (So more like "Defensive" speed), not actually attack speed, because it doesn't "attack" per say, GER does.

 

[Chariot190]

"At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ".

We could (And should) give the exact details and such on how and why and what exactly is infinite with RTZ, as well as why at minimum he's at least and likely far higher in regards to the top tier stands in speed like King Crimson.

Not exactly my favored solution but being conservative this should be a reasonable conclusion based on the above scans and misc shit.

Also it's Xmas apparently, happy Xmas to whoever is actually bothering with this on Xmas day.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Can you write how you think the whole description should be?
So:

"At least MFTL (faster than KC), Infinite with RTZ (????)"

Fill in the questionmarks.

 

[Chariot190]

Tbh Im unsure how to actually word the latter to be precise, it's not exactly simple, other then repeating what I said above, but obviously that wouldn't work for a profile without clogging it up (Maybe a blog explanation linked in the note section could work? I could start work on one of those if needed).
The scaling part would be easy enough though, most of the scans have been posted.

Former is easy.
"At least Massively FTL, likely higher (Demonstrably far superior to its former self. Could casually flick a pebble at such a speed that Diavolo even with the help of Epitaph couldn't perceive the moment of attack. Broke free of its shell, moving itself and Giorno out of sight while King Crimson was mid punch all the while being in full view of both him and his Stand).
And the scans would be easy to get ahold of, just throw the scenes in a imgur album and have them link to it.

 

[Chariot190]

Are we like, mostly good here? I've spent all day lurking this to respond as quickly as possible and get this done as soon as possible, other then some wording complications, if we're all mostly fine with that bar minor tweaking that should suffice right? I don't mean to be pushy here but I shouldn't even be doing this atm, my ass is knocked up on morphine and who knows what else for the foreseeable future and I'd like to go back to being in misery in peace.

 

[Hasch]

Is this really your response to what I said? You didn't say a single thing that I myself haven't said in this very thread. Yes, GER is faster than King Crimson. So fast King Crimson can't see him, so fast that King Crimson literally in the midst of throwing a full power punch at full speed is so much slower in comparison that GER can literally break out of its shell, grab Giorno, heal his ass, go around Diavolo and King Crimson and begin floating in the air, to the point it just looks like they went poof and teleported. There is no situation King Crimson would ever get the drop on GER if GER was out, and if he did, GER would have allowed him to do so or simply didn't bother.
You just argued against yourself there fyi, what Epitaph shows happen no matter what, as you just said, regardless of if they're actually realistically possible to transpire, Diavolo straight up abuses this fact multiple times throughout the part to get desired effects that normally, he wouldn't be able to perform due to it being literally impossible to pull off. Is a slower Stand tagging a faster Stand possible? Depending on the circumstances sure, but even in this situation it's a complete and utter nonfactor because it's based on Diavolo's assumption of how he managed to tag Giorno (Because he only seen the end result), all the while it's literally a point throughout that entire arc for Diavolo to be talking out his ass due to his desperation and decreasing advantage, as I explained in depth above, twice, and now a third time below.

in fact I'll repeat myself, given you've said absolutely nothing I haven't already commented on in full.

"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."

And

"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."

Unless you have actual new information that I haven't directly commented upon, drop it.

You are starting to repeat the same thing over and over.

Points are:
-If Epitaph shows something it's certain it was going to happen.
-Slower stands can hit faster Stands if they get an opening like diavolo had with it's timeskip.
-GER never showed infinite speed, he was merely faster than KC.

You're blatantly spreading misinformation here, stop it. When GER says "You'll never reach the truth", he isn't saying "hey you'll never reach the future", and you outright twisting and changing the line to something never said is blatantly dishonesty if not outright lying. When GER says "You'll never reach the truth", he's talking in general, future, past, present, it doesn't matter, he's talking about actions as a whole and reality, hell he even mentions people who died and how their actions have will have consequence while Diavolo never will. The line isn't even meant to be about his powers really but rather the subtext and narrative of Part 5 as a whole, in how Diavolo always abused his powers to get a result but skipped the journey to get there, while people like Abbachio and co took the long path, that even if it was harder, they did it because it was right, plus a whole bunch of fate and meta shit about destiny and causality. It's not true because I explained why it isn't true at least 4 times now, is your entire argument here based on Diavolo saying he was a moment faster? Which is literally just him saying that in desperation based on a vision that simply showed the end result and not him actually doing it or being faster, only the aftermath and him guessing based on that? Not even Diavolo himself knew for certain if that was actually the case and your entire argument is based upon that?

The meaning of the dialogue is related to the overall story but is still a literal description of it's power and what is happening.

GER acknowledges KC being a bit faster with help from timeskip is a thing, too bad causality manipulation negged that by making it so Diavolo never used timeskip.

I'm going to be brutally honest here, you're wrong and your example is awful. The speed rating is None because, as it says, his stats simply can't be measured using the scale that other Stands use, why can't they be measured? Because GER is above them and as such his stats can't be measured with it. It's attack power is literally stated to exceed all other Stands in a completely different section, like literally, it says "Has an attack power that exceeds all Stands", or something extremely close to that, Tusk' attack power isn't infinite, in fact he's barely Star Platinum level when it comes to raw physical strength, the thing that is infinite is the spin, not Tusk itself, with the spin being a completely separate entity from Tusk Act 4, Tusk can just weaponize it, Johnny eventually even learns how to manifest Tusk Act 4 without his horse and shit to give you an idea, which is probably why Tusk only has an A in attack power, not Infinity or anything even close to that, because the infinity thing in question isn't the Stand, same goes with the range for Act 4 despite the Infinite Spin having Multiversal range.
The speed rating isn't "none" because it's causality manipulation, you're blatantly making that up and assuming that to be the case when nothing implies that, in fact, what it actually says doesn't convey that at all, especially when every stat is listed as None, not just speed, they're ALL None, because they're all impossible to compare to any other stand due to superiority.

No you are assuming the meaning of something just because it can't be fit in the same parameters as other stands.

If GER had "infinite attack" it would replicate the effect of Tusk using the spin.

If it had "infinite range" it would have stopped MIH

If it had "infinite speed" it wouldn't be posible for a future where KC is a bit faster to exist, and his attacks before using it's ability would be instantaneous but they aren't depicted as such, the whole "but how do you represent that" isn't even an argument since it's as simple as having a character state it or just show a timer to make it clear it happens in 0 time.

Based on what? Nothing you've said here is anything new, in fact you simply repeated yourself and in some cases, repeated what I myself said. As said above, if you can't bring any actual new information to the table, don't, all you're doing is clogging up the thread with info already discussed in full and forcing more long ass explanations that are redundant as ****. If you do have new info, go ahead, new info is always good, but the same thing over and over? No, I, nor what I assume to be most others, have the time for that.


As I said above.

"At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ".

Earl does bring up a point in it being worded as attack speed being odd, because RTZ technically isn't an attack nor has proper offensive utility. Technically it'd be infinite activation and functionality speed (So more like "Defensive" speed), not actually attack speed, because it doesn't "attack" per say, GER does.

I repeated myself because your points make no sense and you keep repeating them.

If GER had infinite speed Araki would just write that, he didn't because the stats are irrelevant because of causality manipulation.

Against a character with reality warping strong enough to ignore causality manipulation, GER is just a bit faster and stronger than Star Platinum, without infinite stats, because there's no evidence or statement of such a thing.

 

[Chariot190]

Guess I'm not done.

You are starting to repeat the same thing over and over. Points are:

No shit I'm repeating myself over and over because everything you're saying is nothing new, not even relevant anymore and things that I have literally mentioned before you even brought them up, so yes, if I'm repeating myself, it's because you can't take the hint the first four times.

-If Epitaph shows something it's 99% certain it was going to happen

No, not 99% of the time. It's 100% of the time, it's guaranteed, do you need a whole breakdown and a good two dozen scans explaining this from not only the source material but even various guides? Because if absolutely needed I can do so. This isn't even subject to debate, it's a well established fact. And this even goes for things that should be technically impossible, hell, it's even been shown on panel at least three times.

-Slower stands can hit faster Stands if they get an opening like diavolo had with it's timeskip.

Sure, maybe, of course, as I said 4 times going on 5, it quite literally doesn't matter and your argument here is effectively a complete nonargument, and I'm done copy pasting it over and over again, I've explained it 4 times and even went on to explain it in at least two different ways, maybe 3.

-GER never showed infinite speed, he was merely faster than KC.

That isn't my point, that's your point.

he meaning of the dialogue is related to the overall story but is still a literal description of it's power and what is happening.

Sure, but not in the way you're twisting it. You're trying, and even said as much, that GER is explicitly talking about the future, he's not, he's describing RTZ as a concept, fate, destiny, resolution, and sacrifice, even going as far to making Diavolo die infinitely in that he'd never reach the truth/reality of "dying". You're trying to convey his line as something it isnt.

GER acknowledges KC being a bit faster is a thing, too bad causality manipulation negged that by making it so Diavolo never used timeskip.

Did he now? Because I'm looking through the arc, even going through the original japanese scans, and GER never actually says "Hey, you were faster than me in your vision lol". the only thing he says in regards to anything is "Your ability will indeed see the actions that we will actually perform", in reference to Epitaph showing Diavolo punching straight through Giorno's heart in the vision, GER never once anywhere says what you're saying he says, in fact he's literally just repeating what we already know, Epitaph will show a guaranteed future that happens no matter what and under normal circumstances the action Diavolo is performing in the vision, that being punching out Giorno, would 100% transpire. GER's lines have absolutely no comment on speed or Diavolo being faster, not only that, what I said previously is even doubly true in regards to Diavolo merely assuming, because he himself outright says his vision showed him the aftermath, not the actual event itself. So, going to be blunt here, stop lying. Everything you've said in regards to this specific topic has been skewed at best or a lie at worst. Never reach the future isn't the line and GER never said King Crimson was faster. And yes, Time Skip was negated, which effects quite literally NOTHING being discussed, time erase, the negation of and so on is a complete and utter nonfactor to the main point, you're unironically clogging up the thread with useless debate.

No you are assuming the meaning of something just because it has no rating because it can't be fit in the same parameters.

I'm not assuming anything here, it says what it says and we're even given some context to it as to why it cant be measured. I'm convinced you havent actually been paying attention at this point and it's becoming a piss off.

If GER had "infinite attack" it would replicate the effect of Tusk using the spin.

Nobody said GER had Infinite attack, this is such a blatant strawman that it's baffling. GER doesn't have Infinite attack because NO Stand has Infinite attack and no Stand is given an infinite rating for attack, but GER does scale above every existing Stand in attack output, because we're explicitly told he does. Like, news flash, it quite literally says "Has an attack power that exceeds existing Stands". And You just answered your own argument, Tusk with the spin, yeah no shit, any Stand could be on par with Tusk if they had the infinite spin too, if GER had the infinite spin he'd be above Tusk as well. The part you don't seem to get is that Tusk isn't the concept of the Infinite Spin literally, the spin and Tusk are two separate things and Tusk is given a simple A in attack power, not infinite, because he isnt the spin. GER scales above Tusk's attack power, but not the spin, because the spin is separate and isnt factored into his stats. GER's stats only exceed what actually exist, there is no infinite attack rating and no Stand has Infinite attack, ergo, GER doesn't get that because there's nothing to scale off in the first place, and that's ignoring the whole "exceeds all stands' attack output" quote making this point fall apart before it even began.

If it had "infinite range" it would have stopped MIH

Ignoring the fact GER quite literally has above infinite range with RTZ at the very least, negated a universal time erasure that has the same range as Made In Heaven and has demonstrably at least low multiversal range, is this actually your argument? That because GER didn't stop an entity in a different part because that'd be ******* stupid as shit and ruin the story all the while RTZ literally has multiple feats of infinite range? We don't even need to scale for the range part, he has blatant feats, so no, there is no "if he had", he literally does, hell, he's at minimum Infinite x 2 in this aspect. (Also GER's most common feat in non and secondary canon is telling MIH to **** off for whatever that's worth).

If it had "infinite speed" it wouldn't be posible for a future where KC is a bit faster to exist,

5 times it is.

"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."

And

"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."

And

and his attacks before using it's ability would be instantaneous but they aren't depicted as such, the whole "but how do you represent that" isn't even an argument since it's as simple as having a character state it or just show a timer to smake it clear itr happens in 0 time.

In case you forgot, and I don't know how the **** you did given it's been brought up a dozen times but the very thing you're saying, did happen, there is a scene, where GER moves and performs actions at such a speed that it literally isnt shown, none of it, we go from him being in one place then another with him having done a bunch of shit inbetween, so you're quite literally wrong on that front, there is indeed a part where GER is depicted moving so fast it's effectively instantaneous and comes off as teleportation, which it isnt. It's not an argument on it's own, but hey, I've already commented on this above.
As simple as having a character state it? Our options are the dude who is consistently saying things about GER and every single time it's wrong because he's in denial and can't believe he's ****** so he's trying to undermine GER at every turn to convince himself he still has a chance, or GER, who spends his entire time telling Diavolo to eat shit basically, and nobody else because GER wants to keep his true capabilities hidden for some reason. And 0 time? I mean, there's quite literally an example but we don't use those anymore. And show a timer? I can't think of a single series that has done that to conveyed something like this and I'm glad they don't, at that point it's pointless fluff that doesn't actually serve the scene.

I repeated myself because your points make no sense and you keep repeating them.

Well at least you admit you're repeating the exact same things over again without bring new information. My points make plenty of sense, hell i even supplied scans, I even checked the raws in some cases to double check.

If GER had infinite speed Araki would just write that, he didn't because the stats are iirrelevant because of causality manipulation.

Dude, Araki leaves out a lot of shit, Araki didn't write Mista can imbue bullets with Stand energy which is why his bullets are able to interact with Stands, but Mista can and does do that. Or Star Platinum's super breathe, or any other number of other abilities. Actually, the majority of the time the Stand's stats aren't mentioned at all unless that's the whole schtick like Star Platinum because huge raw stats so its huge power or speed is mentioned, GER's main thing is RTZ which is why that's the most heavily discussed for it in verse and by wog, though in JoJo-A-GoGo, it fortunately makes mention of GER having an attack power that exceeds all Stands and his Stats being impossible to measure against any other Stand, and no, not because causality manipulation, Causality Manipulation effects his attack stat how exactly? Or how does it effect his, well, speed for starters, or how does it effect precision? News flash, it doesnt, yet none of them can be compared to any existing Stand and can't even be measured using the existing scale, as it says. Again, going to be blunt, stop pulling things like this, you're actually making shit up and trying to have it mean something it doesnt. This isnt subject for debate. hell you want to argue causality manipulation? ******* King Crimson has causality manipulation too and he doesn't get the same treatment, even though his version is probably even better in some regards and also has demonstrably infinite range. I should also mention that causality manipulation is something we treat GER as, in context it's literally just "lol no", c&e manip is just the closest thing we got.

Against a character with reality warping strong enough to ignore causality manipulation, GER is just a bit faster and stronger than Star Platinum, without infinite stats, because there's no evidence or statement of such a thing.

Just a bit stronger and faster than Star Platinum? What in the actual **** are you talking about. GER can't even be perceived by King Crimson, a Stand that's arguably better then Star Platinum depending on who you ask and worse case scenario is on par with Star Platinum. And a bit stronger? GER literally killed King Crimson with a casual pummel, he killed and broke a Star Platinum level Stand with little effort. You're actually saying that GER is just a bit stronger and faster than a character he can literally vanish from and can't even be seen moving with Epitaph and a character he literally tore apart on panel.
And no evidence or statement? I'm honestly about to quit this and never return, having to debate people like you makes this whole thing pointless, I'm talking to a wall.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not saying it again, if you don't bring any actual new information to the table, drop it.
At the very least make a point that hasn't been commented on numerous times.

And better yet, actually think your points through, having to comment on points and counterpoints that are based on blatant misinformation or half truths like "Tusk has Infinite attack power, and GER doesnt have infinite attack power, so GER's None doesnt mean what it actually does because if it did then GER would have infinite attack" is a blatant strawman and conveying of information in a skewed manner given Tusk doesn't have infinite attack power and is given an A to represent that, GER not needing infinite attack power to exceed Tusk, and GER being stated to exceed all Stands in attack power blatantly in the guide outside of the None stat.
I'm not to keen on arguing points built upon misinformation or are presented in a way that's completely false, and blatantly so at that.

Also something tells me you missed the part where nobody is actually arguing that GER has infinite speed itself at this point, so what in the actual **** are you even debating here?

 

[Hasch]

No shit I'm repeating myself over and over because everything you're saying is nothing new, not even relevant anymore and things that I have literally mentioned before you even brought them up, so yes, if I'm repeating myself, it;s because you can't take the hint the first four times.

Because the things I said weren't refuted.

No, not 99% of the time. It's 100% of the time, it's guaranteed, do you need a whole breakdown and a good two dozen scans explaining this from not only the source material but even various guides? Because if absolutely need I can do so. This isn't even subject to debate, it's a well established fact.

Well there you go, without causality manipulation KC was a bit faster than GER. Thread is done.

Ignoring the fact GER quite literally has above infinite range qwith RTZ at the very least, negated a universal time erasure that has the same range as Made In Heaven and has demonstrably at least low multiversal range, is this actually your argument? That because GER didn't stop an entity in a different part because that'd be ******* stupid as shit and ruin the story all the while RTZ literally has multiple feats of infinite range? We don't even need to scale for the range part, he has blatant feats, so no, there is no "if he had", he literally does.

No, GER'S range is "anything in his presence" same as SP range is 2m, the effect of their skills ican be universal in range.

Also your whole point is that the "none" is for GER stats not for it's skill.

5 times it is.

"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."

And

"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."

This whole thing is pointless since GER will never allow Giorno to be damaged, if the 100% absolute future Epitaph shows it's posible (aside from causality manipulation) then it means GER would have failed to block KC + TIMESKIP with just it's speed alone.

You are assuming GER decided to not protect Giorno just to troll

n case you forgot, and I don't know how the **** you did given it's been brought up a dozen times but the very thing you're saying, did happen, there is a scene, where GER moves and performs actions at such a speed that it literally isnt shown, none of it, we go from him being in one place then another with him having done a bunch of shit inbetween, so you're quite literally wrong on that front, there is indeed a part where GER is depicted moving so fast it's effectively instantaneous and comes off as teleportation, which it isnt. It's not an argument on it's own, but hey, I've already commented on this above.
As simple as having a character state it? Our options are the dude who is consistently saying things about GER and every single time it's wrong because he's in denial and can't believe he's ****** so he's trying to undermine GER at every turn to convince himself he still has a chance, or GER, who spends his entire time telling Diavolo to eat shit basically, and nobody else because GER wants to keep his true capabilities hidden for some reason. And 0 time? I mean, there's quite literally an example but we don't use those anymore. And show a timer? I can't think of a single series that has done that to conveyed something like this and I'm glad they don't, at that point it's pointless fluff that doesn't actually serve the scene.

GER moving offpanel doesn't mean his movements didn't take time in-universe.

Araki could have GER said it, could have Giorno said it, could have said it himself in the stand card, but didn't, the timer thing has been used to showcase a character speed hundreds of times so if Araki wanted he could have done that.

Ultimately if you think it "wouldn't serve the scene" doesn't mean it's imposible to depict instant movements in manga form.

A bit stronger and faster than Star Platinum? What in the actual **** are you talking about. GER can't even be perceived by King Crimson, a Stand that's arguably better then Star Platinum depending on who you ask and worse case scenario is on par with Star Platinum. And a bit stronger? GER literally killed King Crimson with a casual pummel, he killed and broke a Star Platinum level Stand with little effort. You're actually saying that GER is just a bit stronger and faster than a character he can literally vanish from and can't even be seen moving with Epitaph and a character he literally tore apart on panel.
And no evidence or statement? I'm honestly about to quit this and never return, having to debate people like you makes this whole thing pointless, I'm talking to a wall.

From the point of view of versus debating yeah, without his causality manipulation GER is just a bit stronger than SP by powerscalling.

Without causality manipulation this is how a GER fight looks.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Uses EoH, which is non canon

Please tell me you're joking

 

[ShivaShakti]

I find myself agree'ing more with Chariot

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Did you really just use EOH? L.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Chariot more than I already did before.

 

[Hasch]

Please tell me you're joking

Did you really just use EOH? L.

It's only to make it more clear what GER would look like without causality manipulation, not the source of the argument.