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Enrico Pucci's MIH speed is eventually infinite not infinite. Notorious B.I.G's speed is rated as varied and the infinite statement is rated as a hyperbole.as existing stand we have mih and big who all have infinite speed
Being able to move where you shouldn't isn't necessarily Infinite speed, that would be the biggest assumption we could make. Everything lacked time to move and being able to move could much more simply require to not follow the same logic as needing time to move. This doesn't inhereditary translate to Infinite speed in the same way it doesn't translate to not following other concepts aside from time, logic is just be ignored in one specific way. Also yes, you ignored how I reminded above how GER was affected by it until its powers kicked in.Diavolo pointed out only he is able to move in time erase, GER wasnt affected by it at all and the others were
No, it doesn't. You don't neither, it just sounds fancy.Its already established in the series what Diavolo sees in time erase are forecasts of the actions that were gonna happen from the others, regardless of time erase or not, let alone the fact aerosmith bullets go through Diavolo, further supporting they are forecasts only, GER beimg able to speak and do his ability and work inside such a place should tell a lot
It's both their abilities and physicality, but mostly the former. That's most consistent with all the Stand stats and doesn't actually get contradicted by anything as, for example, a Stand with an A in speed and "no speed" in its "1 ability all Stands have" may still have super speed as an ability pointed out by characters. That's why overall physicality isn't talked about much but very specific stats in it are like abilities the Stands have.unless you wanna claim the stand stats are reffering to their abilities, which isnt the case
You're are correct, but you're also expecting way to much for a secondary source of information made in a simple way and not always consistent. MiH's stats should technically be "A, eventually Infinite", or just not Infinite at all as MiH and Pucci move at normal speeds while time gets messed up.rating still puts infinite there, not A or A eventually infinite
Or, power and speed are greatly increased, thereby it is higher into the tier and speed it had as GE. Its ability being other thing not having to do something with it.Power and speed are mentioned to have being greatly increased, talking of physicals, so he scales above any rating from other stand stats on that
Take your time, we're not gonna be done with this without you making your points. But when you do comment, please try to get to the point and not say things many times over.Ill respond later, sorry I cant do it right now.
Yes I did, please read it again, or ask someone privately to tell you. I don't need proof of GER not being affected due to we visually seeing it being affected and not moving before its ability kicked in. You don't seem to be aware about the possibility of GER's ability acting on its own, added to the first thing I said that you didn't understand.1) you just babbling here, you didnt debunk how it isnt, also you have no proof he was affected, if he was he wouldnt be able to pull rtz in the first place, he has to be aware and be able to move as well like Diavolo
I meant it on the "GER being able to speak and do his ability and work inside such a place should tell a lot", you were not precisely pointing out why that's Infinite speed (which given our new standards for it, you really should have), it more so looked like you wanted others to get into the idea of GER having it in a hollow matter. In your reply here it even more so looks like getting into the people is some kind of priority you allow yourself to have, which you shouldn't;2)so you ignore proof and whats established, thanks for the ignorance, the series goes against your personal opinion on that
When I said "a Stand with an A in speed and "no speed" in its "1 ability all Stands have" may still have super speed as an ability pointed out by characters." I meant that yes SP has no hax, but it's pointed out many times by others how its super speed it's part of the set of things SP has going for, hence its stats had it. Poiting out what DIO said makes no sense as he didn't imply using Stand stats as the chart of it we know, so when talking about speed and power he of course means physicality. Whitesnake's own speed and D in speed support my point.3) "mostly the former", not even unless its told or pointed clearly, its talking of physicals unless you wanna tell me Star Platinum, who isnt really much of a haxed stand, has A in stats for abilities and not physicals, even Dio compared The World with Star Platinum by physicals and not abilities, so wrong in this, let alone one like Whitesnake is rated D only for his ability speed, the rest not
You miss the point.4) what you think its better isnt your absolute answer over an official thing that is in the manga present, still doesnt change MiH best speed is infinite and below is casual stuff for him, so the scaling isnt changing
I took and take what I said as a reasonable interpretation of the info we have, and one that it's most likely that you say, a headcanon would be a whole other thing. What you say there is a jump in logic as it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of GER being somewhat stronger and faster than KC.5) headcanon, thanks again for ignorance, the None rating wouldnt imply just over GE, especially since King Crimson, around the league of the strongest close range stands got stomped badly by it, couldnt even see or react to GER on its own, let alone have its face not destroyed by the punches
KC after taking Giorno by surprise tagged him by being a moment faster (with GER being there to have done something),
in the erased time Diavolo saw GER's moves at "slowed down" speeds, but not by an infinite amount
and it took a while for GER to move in the erased time (which is not infinite speed anyway)
I can agree with something much more overpowered that is GER being able to use its power in a point in time before the attacker may attack
Stans don't scale linearly like that.
The type of people who would see that as fine don't have many reasons to be reliable
Yeah, all GER did was negate KC with a stronger reality warping, aside from that at no point it shows or it's stated to have infinite speed. If it had infinite speed it would attack Diavolo in 0 time which it didn't, and it wouldn't be posible for KC to be faster in the potential future Epitaph saw.
That's the whole point of the "never get to the future" dialogue.
The "can't be measured in the same way other stands" bit is because of it's skill, if a system has a "infinite speed" grade and something can be described in that system then it's not speed, its GER ability.
Because this isn't basic Stand stat scaling? This isn't "Oh these two stands have an A and a B so the A is > the B" or "These two Stands both have a B so they're equal". It's "Hey this Stand literally can't even be compared to any other Stand ever and that's why it has None in all stats", which is basically just a roundabout way of saying GER is the ultimate stand and scales above everything. Also we use stand stats outside of the A,B,C shit, that's the only part of the stats we don't use due to vagueness and a few other factors.... Can someone explain me why should use the famously inaccurate Stand Stats as the entire basis for scaling GER? In fact, BIG being Infinite speed is directly contradicted by the series actually explaining how its speed works (it's just faster than whoever it follows), while Made in Heaven is objectively not Infinite all the time, but only when it reaches the top of its acceleration, so scaling GER to it is also questionable.
Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.I'll likely be agreeing with "At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero", emphasis on the RtZ being attack speed and the likely higher for its normal speed not being there, I'll get to why later after commenting.
I agree with this.Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.
Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.
You're acting like GER negating King Crimson's ability invalidates anything said here, it's a literal nonfactor to the main point. At no point was it shown or stated to have infinite speed? The former is debatable and the latter is a half truth. If it had infinite speed he would have attacked Diavolo in zero time? He technically did tbh, but then again, how do you convey infinite speed in a medium like that? By simply having the character do something so fast that it's not even drawn and shown? Well that actually does happen in regards to GER anyway so either way. It wouldn't be possible for King Crimson to be faster in the future Epitaph saw if GER was that fast? It wouldn't be possible even if GER wasn't infinite because it's shown multiple times to us King Crimson doesn't have a chance in hell to comparing to GER in speed. You're right, because he wasn't faster. In case you missed it.
"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."
And
"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."
Don't bring up points that have already been covered without bringing any new information to the table, all you said was he was faster then GER in Epitaph so GER can't be a certain speed, which is based on Diavolo's assumption of "Oh Epitaph shows me with my fist through Giorno's chest, that must mean I was a moment faster haha I win", which is definitely not the case and truth of the situation, made even worse as Diavolo making bold assumptions on what he's seeing in Epitaph and in regards to GER is a consistent reocurring thing throughout the entire scene, everything Diavolo is saying is supposed to be wrong or at least not even close to the full picture, because he's desperate and in denial and is grasping at straws trying to justify his invincibility against a losing situation and that's completely ignoring he's been shown assuming and being incorrect before in regards to his visions and even then, it wouldn't matter, Epitaph doesn't care if something is possible. if it shows something, that something will occur even if it's technically an impossibility to have occurred, hell, Diavolo even abuses the guaranteed nature of it to do such things like kidnapping and ripping off Trish's hand in a manner that would have been otherwise impossible, abusing the guaranteed nature of his Epitaph and the cause and effect manipulation of time skip.
It's actually "Never reach the truth". which isn't talking about the future per say, it's talking about cause and effect as a whole, even past tense in some situations. You're misinterpreting what it says and even changing the wording used.
It's both actually, and even then, as said, in the post directly above yours, even if you want to say it's talking about his ability (which is open to interpretation so it's ok to have your opinion on this as I do mine and neither of us are technically 100% right due to wording and lack of exact specifications), but, even if it's talking about his ability, all that would mean is that RTZ has Infinite speed worse case scenario because something does.
Which, again, as said directly above you, best I can do is "At least Massively FTL, likely higher, Infinite with RTZ". If we assume it's strictly talking about RTZ for every single stat, which is wrong fyi, (His attack power being None for example has nothing to do with RTZ, but something like Range very well could be RTZ specific for example due to it having the highest range shown to us by any Stand ability bar D4C, who's stand stat range is his manifestation range not his ability range so it adds up still (Though even then, you could still argue), not to mention some translations pluralize the subject in the quote meaning it's talking about more than just RTZ depending on what translation we use, it's hard to say, all we can say for certain is that GER exceeds every Stand in every category, somehow, but this does indeed mean that GER's speed, at least some facet of it, is infinite, is it his physicals? Is it his ability? That's open to interpretation but one of them is regardless of what you choose to believe).
Now please don't waste time bringing up points that have already been directly touched upon, unless you have new information to bring in regards to it because I really don't want to clog up the thread with back and forth repeating of the exact same points over and over again, not to mention lack of availability.
I agree with this as wellIm mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.
Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.
Why would return to zero be considered attack speed though?"At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero",
That Diavolo wasn't able to see just means GER is >KC, Epitaph shows things that actually would happen no matter what and slower stands catching faster stands has happened.
No need or reason for infinite speed to be a thing.
The meaning in that case is future, it's "true" that KC was a bit faster but that event never happens because the cause was erased.
No, the speed ranking is none because it doesn't use speed but causality manipulation. Same thing with it's attack power, which if it was infinite would produce effects like those of Tusk.
he fact there's an "infinite speed" rating in JoJo and it doesn't fit GER is enough to know OP is correct.
Is this really your response to what I said? You didn't say a single thing that I myself haven't said in this very thread. Yes, GER is faster than King Crimson. So fast King Crimson can't see him, so fast that King Crimson literally in the midst of throwing a full power punch at full speed is so much slower in comparison that GER can literally break out of its shell, grab Giorno, heal his ass, go around Diavolo and King Crimson and begin floating in the air, to the point it just looks like they went poof and teleported. There is no situation King Crimson would ever get the drop on GER if GER was out, and if he did, GER would have allowed him to do so or simply didn't bother.
You just argued against yourself there fyi, what Epitaph shows happen no matter what, as you just said, regardless of if they're actually realistically possible to transpire, Diavolo straight up abuses this fact multiple times throughout the part to get desired effects that normally, he wouldn't be able to perform due to it being literally impossible to pull off. Is a slower Stand tagging a faster Stand possible? Depending on the circumstances sure, but even in this situation it's a complete and utter nonfactor because it's based on Diavolo's assumption of how he managed to tag Giorno (Because he only seen the end result), all the while it's literally a point throughout that entire arc for Diavolo to be talking out his ass due to his desperation and decreasing advantage, as I explained in depth above, twice, and now a third time below.
in fact I'll repeat myself, given you've said absolutely nothing I haven't already commented on in full.
"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."
And
"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."
Unless you have actual new information that I haven't directly commented upon, drop it.
You're blatantly spreading misinformation here, stop it. When GER says "You'll never reach the truth", he isn't saying "hey you'll never reach the future", and you outright twisting and changing the line to something never said is blatantly dishonesty if not outright lying. When GER says "You'll never reach the truth", he's talking in general, future, past, present, it doesn't matter, he's talking about actions as a whole and reality, hell he even mentions people who died and how their actions have will have consequence while Diavolo never will. The line isn't even meant to be about his powers really but rather the subtext and narrative of Part 5 as a whole, in how Diavolo always abused his powers to get a result but skipped the journey to get there, while people like Abbachio and co took the long path, that even if it was harder, they did it because it was right, plus a whole bunch of fate and meta shit about destiny and causality. It's not true because I explained why it isn't true at least 4 times now, is your entire argument here based on Diavolo saying he was a moment faster? Which is literally just him saying that in desperation based on a vision that simply showed the end result and not him actually doing it or being faster, only the aftermath and him guessing based on that? Not even Diavolo himself knew for certain if that was actually the case and your entire argument is based upon that?
I'm going to be brutally honest here, you're wrong and your example is awful. The speed rating is None because, as it says, his stats simply can't be measured using the scale that other Stands use, why can't they be measured? Because GER is above them and as such his stats can't be measured with it. It's attack power is literally stated to exceed all other Stands in a completely different section, like literally, it says "Has an attack power that exceeds all Stands", or something extremely close to that, Tusk' attack power isn't infinite, in fact he's barely Star Platinum level when it comes to raw physical strength, the thing that is infinite is the spin, not Tusk itself, with the spin being a completely separate entity from Tusk Act 4, Tusk can just weaponize it, Johnny eventually even learns how to manifest Tusk Act 4 without his horse and shit to give you an idea, which is probably why Tusk only has an A in attack power, not Infinity or anything even close to that, because the infinity thing in question isn't the Stand, same goes with the range for Act 4 despite the Infinite Spin having Multiversal range.
The speed rating isn't "none" because it's causality manipulation, you're blatantly making that up and assuming that to be the case when nothing implies that, in fact, what it actually says doesn't convey that at all, especially when every stat is listed as None, not just speed, they're ALL None, because they're all impossible to compare to any other stand due to superiority.
Based on what? Nothing you've said here is anything new, in fact you simply repeated yourself and in some cases, repeated what I myself said. As said above, if you can't bring any actual new information to the table, don't, all you're doing is clogging up the thread with info already discussed in full and forcing more long ass explanations that are redundant as ****. If you do have new info, go ahead, new info is always good, but the same thing over and over? No, I, nor what I assume to be most others, have the time for that.
As I said above.
"At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ".
Earl does bring up a point in it being worded as attack speed being odd, because RTZ technically isn't an attack nor has proper offensive utility. Technically it'd be infinite activation and functionality speed (So more like "Defensive" speed), not actually attack speed, because it doesn't "attack" per say, GER does.
You are starting to repeat the same thing over and over. Points are:
-If Epitaph shows something it's 99% certain it was going to happen
-Slower stands can hit faster Stands if they get an opening like diavolo had with it's timeskip.
-GER never showed infinite speed, he was merely faster than KC.
Sure, but not in the way you're twisting it. You're trying, and even said as much, that GER is explicitly talking about the future, he's not, he's describing RTZ as a concept, fate, destiny, resolution, and sacrifice, even going as far to making Diavolo die infinitely in that he'd never reach the truth/reality of "dying". You're trying to convey his line as something it isnt.he meaning of the dialogue is related to the overall story but is still a literal description of it's power and what is happening.
GER acknowledges KC being a bit faster is a thing, too bad causality manipulation negged that by making it so Diavolo never used timeskip.
No you are assuming the meaning of something just because it has no rating because it can't be fit in the same parameters.
If GER had "infinite attack" it would replicate the effect of Tusk using the spin.
If it had "infinite range" it would have stopped MIH
If it had "infinite speed" it wouldn't be posible for a future where KC is a bit faster to exist,
and his attacks before using it's ability would be instantaneous but they aren't depicted as such, the whole "but how do you represent that" isn't even an argument since it's as simple as having a character state it or just show a timer to smake it clear itr happens in 0 time.
I repeated myself because your points make no sense and you keep repeating them.
If GER had infinite speed Araki would just write that, he didn't because the stats are iirrelevant because of causality manipulation.
Against a character with reality warping strong enough to ignore causality manipulation, GER is just a bit faster and stronger than Star Platinum, without infinite stats, because there's no evidence or statement of such a thing.
No shit I'm repeating myself over and over because everything you're saying is nothing new, not even relevant anymore and things that I have literally mentioned before you even brought them up, so yes, if I'm repeating myself, it;s because you can't take the hint the first four times.
No, not 99% of the time. It's 100% of the time, it's guaranteed, do you need a whole breakdown and a good two dozen scans explaining this from not only the source material but even various guides? Because if absolutely need I can do so. This isn't even subject to debate, it's a well established fact.
Ignoring the fact GER quite literally has above infinite range qwith RTZ at the very least, negated a universal time erasure that has the same range as Made In Heaven and has demonstrably at least low multiversal range, is this actually your argument? That because GER didn't stop an entity in a different part because that'd be ******* stupid as shit and ruin the story all the while RTZ literally has multiple feats of infinite range? We don't even need to scale for the range part, he has blatant feats, so no, there is no "if he had", he literally does.
5 times it is.
"In a vision that never came to pass or was ever going to happen in the first place. In a vision that involves him having struck the instant time erase ceased in a vision against a character so fast it's outright shown to us, multiple times, that Diavolo and his Stand can't even perceive him moving at all, even even with Epitaph? All based on Diavolo seeing the end result of a vision and probably just assuming he was a tad faster and that's how he pulled it off in his prediction and that's why he said that? Not knowing the vision was just a giant **** you to him in the first place to him? I mean I get where you're coming from but there's so many issues with this line in particular and the context of it that I can't actually give this line any credence.
The only way King Crimson would ever get a drop on GER is GER if wanted that, especially when we know for a fact that GER can casually react and avoid his strikes from a ludicrously small distance away, at such a speed, that King Crimson would unironically appear frozen to him even if he wasn't infinite or something."
And
"Can't be perceived at all by anyone, not even King Crimson (Casually flicked a pebble so fast Diavolo outright says he didn't actually see the attack or what GER did, all he seen was a hole appear in his hand in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time, the only reason he didn't get harmed further above that was because he had precognition and even in said precognition he couldn't perceive any attack, just the aftermath. Also, GER managed to break out of its shell, heal and move Giorno, move around Diavolo, go behind him and then float in the air, all the while King Crimson was mid punch looking directly at him in the middle of caving the shell in. GER did all that in a timeframe that isn't even shown, in front of everyone).
Of course this point wouldn't give anyone an infinite rating, but it does shut down any "Diavolo or someone reacted to him" arguments, if Diavolo reacted to GER, it's because he let him react (Which does indeed happen at one point). (And because it's been mentioned again, Diavolo himself says he couldn't perceive the attack of GER, said attack being a pebble flick, so no Diavolo never reacted to the flick, he outright says he didn't see GER actually perform the flick even in Epitaph)."
n case you forgot, and I don't know how the **** you did given it's been brought up a dozen times but the very thing you're saying, did happen, there is a scene, where GER moves and performs actions at such a speed that it literally isnt shown, none of it, we go from him being in one place then another with him having done a bunch of shit inbetween, so you're quite literally wrong on that front, there is indeed a part where GER is depicted moving so fast it's effectively instantaneous and comes off as teleportation, which it isnt. It's not an argument on it's own, but hey, I've already commented on this above.
As simple as having a character state it? Our options are the dude who is consistently saying things about GER and every single time it's wrong because he's in denial and can't believe he's ****** so he's trying to undermine GER at every turn to convince himself he still has a chance, or GER, who spends his entire time telling Diavolo to eat shit basically, and nobody else because GER wants to keep his true capabilities hidden for some reason. And 0 time? I mean, there's quite literally an example but we don't use those anymore. And show a timer? I can't think of a single series that has done that to conveyed something like this and I'm glad they don't, at that point it's pointless fluff that doesn't actually serve the scene.
A bit stronger and faster than Star Platinum? What in the actual **** are you talking about. GER can't even be perceived by King Crimson, a Stand that's arguably better then Star Platinum depending on who you ask and worse case scenario is on par with Star Platinum. And a bit stronger? GER literally killed King Crimson with a casual pummel, he killed and broke a Star Platinum level Stand with little effort. You're actually saying that GER is just a bit stronger and faster than a character he can literally vanish from and can't even be seen moving with Epitaph and a character he literally tore apart on panel.
And no evidence or statement? I'm honestly about to quit this and never return, having to debate people like you makes this whole thing pointless, I'm talking to a wall.
Uses EoH, which is non canon
Please tell me you're joking
Did you really just use EOH? L.