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The fact is that people use that very fight to give HAD infinite speed though.Please tell me you're joking
I am neutral on the topic, but the fact that we only use it one-sidedly is ugh...
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The fact is that people use that very fight to give HAD infinite speed though.Please tell me you're joking
Are you ******* with me? Not only were they refuted, heavily at that, they were before you even brought it up. Hell, I don't think you know the the word refute even means because there's no way you can actually say this.Because the things I said weren't refuted.
Well there you go, without causality manipulation KC was a bit faster than GER. Thread is done.
No, GER'S range is "anything in his presence" same as SP range is 2m, the effect of their skills ican be universal in range.
Also your whole point is that the "none" is for GER stats not for it's skill.
This whole thing is pointless since GER will never allow Giorno to be damaged, if the 100% absolute future Epitaph shows it's posible (aside from causality manipulation) then it means GER would have failed to block KC + TIMESKIP with just it's speed alone.
GER moving offpanel doesn't mean his movements didn't take time in-universe.
Araki could have GER said it, could have Giorno said it, could have said it himself in the stand card, but didn't, the timer thing has been used to showcase a character speed hundreds of times so if Araki wanted he could have done that.
You are assuming GER decided to not protect Giorno just to troll
Ultimately if you think it "wouldn't serve the scene" doesn't mean it's imposible to depict instant movements in manga form.
From the point of view of versus debating yeah, without his causality manipulation GER is just a bit stronger than SP by powerscalling.
Without causality manipulation this is how a GER fight looks.
Yeah if we wanna bring in Non-Canon things, theres plenty of whacky shit in Jorge Joestar lmaoNon-canon? Boy don't you even start, if we bring in noncanon there's been actual times where Giorno fought Pucci, and blitzed him. That's right, GER folded a bloodlusted highly accelerated MIH and Pucci, without a single semblance of effort in non-canon.
But again, you're arguing pointless shit because nobody atm is arguing for Infinite GER physically, but yet, here we are.
Are you ******* with me? Not only were they refuted, heavily at that, they were before you even brought it up. Hell, I don't think you know the the word refute even means because there's no way you can actually say this.
This is completely made up headcanon, RTZ has explicitly shown capable of effecting things that span the whole universe, and telling them to go **** off, pretty blatant infinite range to me, and everyone else, but not only that, he was capable of putting Diavolo in an infinite death loop for all eternity across parallel worlds, last I checked, being able to effect something and having the range to do so on a thing that's no longer even in your dimension is a pretty blatant example of "Infinite range and being able to effect something not in your presence".
Yes, in the future that was guaranteed to occur no matter how impossible it may have been, King Crimson managed to punch through Giorno. That's quite literally all we know about it, was it because he was faster than GER? No, it doesn't, and if I have to repeat myself one more time I swear to God. What part of Epitaph's futures are absolute, no matter how impossible they may be.
Like dude holy shit, Diavolo has LITERALLY used Epitaph to abuse fate and causality to have actions done that he would otherwise be completely impossible and incapable of performing and the fact you have to add onto that with "+Time Skip", as in, King Crimson didn't just throw a punch and was quicker on the draw, he's literally abusing time, absolute futuresight and fate and cause and effect to land a hit from behind. Like, seriously?
Never said it did, but, you did say that GER was never depicted as moving instantly or anything of the sort, in which case, you're wrong. He was depicted, as his very first feat, as being able to basically teleport from Point A to Point B while doing a bunch of things inbetween, all at such a speed that it couldn't even be shown, all before King Crimson could land a hit he was already in the process of throwing. He literally did a nothin personel kid. Does that warrant infinite? Definitely not on its own, but it doesnt change the fact you're literally wrong on that front.
GER literally says nothing about things we know for a fact either, GER doesnt say "Hey I can death loop your ass", he doesnt say "Hey im so strong im literally able to exceed every other stand in raw attack power casually", he doesnt say "hey i can manipulate cause and effect", GER doesnt comment on ANYTHING it can do other than "You will never reach the truth", the best he does is tell Diavolo off in regards to RTZ using flowery language, nothing else. And you want GER to give us a complete rundown of every capability of it? When we're told basically the same shit elsewhere in guides? Like come the **** on. And Giorno? In case you forgot Giorno has absolutely no idea what GER can do or what it's capable of, we're outright told this on panel and it's repeated in every guide, Giorno can't tell us anything about GER because he knows nothing about it. Araki also left out such critical information as "Hey this ****** could fold every stand in existence in raw power" out of the Stand card too, opting to relegate information like that to the guide. So, again, what are you actually talking about? And a timer? the only time Araki has ever used a timer for anything is countdowns, at the end of chapters, to crucial events, and he's only done it twice in the span of 30 years, with the second time being a call back to the first. You're asking for Araki to have drawn in a TIMER of all things, you could use that argument for every speed feat in the verse, no offense but that's stupid as ****. Ignoring that there's actually a roundabout timer in place at one point but eh. And yes, if Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have, but he didn't, why didn't he want to? Because clogging up the climax of a part where a character gives another justice while talking meta and fate and about the deceased is what he wanted, not this.
GER literally instant transmissions at one point as his very first thing he does. That's like the most blatant you'll ever get without being tryhard.
Not really your decision to make there mate.Chariot's arguments are based on a logical fallacy and contradict canon so this thread should be closed since OP is correct.
We use it one-sidedly because EoH isn't canon, and thus doesn't have any reason to scale anything outside of EoH (and even then, it wouldn't, since only thing that scales to TWOH is SPOH).but the fact that we only use it one-sidedly is ugh...
LMFAOOOOOOChariot's arguments are based on a logical fallacy and contradict canon so this thread should be closed since OP is correct.
Stop repeating the same thing, make new arguments and come back or concede.
That's the range of the skill, not reflected in stands stat pages, that's why KC has E in range.
Well Epitaph doesn't show imposible futures, for all intents and purposes Epitaph shows what is going to happen and it shows KC killing Giorno without GER being able to avoid it with just his stats.
So, no infinite speed.
This isn't even an argument, you say "Does that warrant infinite? Definitely not on its own" in the same sentence as "GER was never depicted as moving instantly or anything of the sort, in which case, you're wrong"
You admit it was never depicted as moving in 0 time, but because it moved offpanel it "can't be proved it didn't move in 0 time"
You are making 0 sense.
You argued instant movement can't be depicted, you now agree "Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have" so this argument is done.
Then Kenshin Himura has infinite speed?
I'll cover that in the AP crt, Ill do that when im out of the hospital.what should we do for GER ap
Hasch I swear to God, are you actually telling me to make new arguments, when I've been telling you to do that since before you even responded, and you failed to do so every single post because you've done absolutely nothing here in regards to bringing new information and have even admitted above to have repeated the same arguments over and over again, yet have the audacity to tell me to make a new argument or concede when your very first post in response to me was things I had directly commented upon BEFORE you even brought them up? I swear to **** this better be a joke.
Oh, you mean the skill? The causality manipulation, that you've been continuously saying is why it has None in his stats, despite the actual text? Ok then GER has manifestation range that exceeds every other Stand, wow cool, ironically enough BIG has Infinite manifestation range along with a few others so neat, big upgrade here if we're assuming its his manifestation, even though it could be either. guess what, not how it ******* works, it's not even what it says. Ignoring the range can be a few things not just manifestation, though that's moot to the topic at hand, you're moving the goalposts and it's sickening, You say, plain as day, "GER's range is only what is in his presence", referring to what RTZ can effect and the range on it, after explicit feats that blatantly contradict your claim and notion you're now backepedaling to say "well yeah that's his ABILITY range, not his range", even though we were always talking about his ability range in the first place.
It literally has and he's abused the **** out of it in conjunction with time skip. Don't "for all intents and purposes", yeah, no shit it is going to show what happens, that's the whole point, what it shows is GURANTEED AND ABSOLUTE no matter how IMPOSSIBLE it may be. The vision is FATED to happen, it doesnt matter what one does, no matter how impossible, if it is shown, it WILL happen. Even if you know it's going to happen, you can't do anything at all about it because it's going to happen no matter what. Meaning? It doesn't matter how fast GER is, King Crimson could be slower than a normal human and GER could be The Flash, if Epitaph shows King Crimson punching through Giorno it will happen no matter how impossible the odds, likelihood and circumstances of it. And the worst part of all this is, your whole argument is based off a desperate in denial Diavolo's assumption. Not to mention we're shown that GER is so fast that King Crimson is at minimum completely frozen compared to him doing drastic movements despite punching at full speed, kinda drawing your argument into question as is. Your whole argument is based upon a character's assumption who is purposely shown to be wrong at every step of the arc on purpose, which is needless to say, ridiculous.
Strawmanning again? I never said that, what I did say was that by itself it doesnt warrant anything, by itself, as in, in a vacuum, guess what this isn't? A ******* vacuum. Offpanel? I don't think you understand, it didn't move off panel, we were in full view of GER the entire time, he effectively teleported. GER moved himself off panel, but he didn't move off panel, his movements happened within the panels we were shown, but he was just so fast we couldnt actually see him move. I'm not using this as an argument for infinite speed though, what I am using it as though is a counter to the "Oh he's only a bit faster than King Crimson" or "People could react to him", because no, they can't and couldn't unless he wanted them to.
What in the actual ****, do you just interpret people's arguments to mean whatever the **** you want when in no world whatsoever do they actually mean that? I didn't argue instant movement can't be depicted, though I did say how the **** would one even do so and imply it'd be unconventional as shit. On the contrary, I pointed out an example where GER actually is depicted as instant movement, as literally teleporting from Point A to Point B and doing shit within said "teleport" most certainly would be considered instant movement in a vacuum if one wanted to convey instant movement visually. You'd just draw a character in one spot, then another with nothing inbetween while making it explicit he moved and did things inbetween, there's literally no other way to visually convey instant movement actually. Of course, I'm not saying this automatically means infinite speed, it obviously doesnt (in a vacuum), but in regards to you saying GER was never drawn or depicted as moving like that? Well you're straight up wrong on that front.
You're ******* insufferable, I know for a fact you're doing this on purpose now, there's no way in hell this wasn't purposeful.
Here's what I actually said "if Araki wanted to do everything you just said, he could have, but he didn't, why didn't he want to? Because clogging up the climax of a part where a character gives another justice while talking meta and fate and about the deceased is what he wanted, not this."
Leaving out the keyword of ******* "if" to make it seem like I said Araki wanted to that is dishonest at best, ignoring the latter half of my sentence. If you're just going to quote me out of context while leaving out keywords to strawman and misconstrue my argument, well honestly I dont know what to say that wouldn't get me in shit so eh.
False analogy much?
Interesting but another topic for anothe time i guess.Question: If GER gets Infinite attacks speed via RtZ, does that mean TWOH is still infinite, it managed to negate ger before RtZ went off
You can keep stonewalling then, won't take you anywhere.
You claimed GER has powerscalling from every Stand because it can be measured in the same scale, to prove that point you used the range from KC ability, which is unrelated to stats and wouldn't give anything to GER.
You have no argument.
Wrong, Epitaph simply shows the future, if it's an imposible thing it won't happen and will not be shown in the first place, meaning even if he hadn't used Epitaph KC still would have hit Giorno before GER could do anything.
And all this mean is it moved faster than the characters there could perceive and there's 0 evidence of actualy moving in 0 time.
I mean he also seems to teleport sometimes, guess that makes him infinite in speed.
I believe this should be moved to a staff discussion with at least Chariot allowed there, to avoid chaos like this.
We could just start off where we left off, given we were already almost at an agreement that I'm pretty sure everyone just about was fine with it given the the influx of agreement with the conclusion since yesterday (I think we have like a dozen in agreement but I didn't really count). Only real disagreement here is Hasch and he hasn't been saying anything that hasn't already been said.We do, but unfortunately that's not the same as the profile needing to be changed yet. It sucks this thread became so long and repeated over things that could have been generally avoided by the average users in it. Yeah it should have started like that, not sure what to do now.
I'll likely be agreeing with "At least [Top tier Stands' speed], Infinite attack speed with Return to Zero", emphasis on the RtZ being attack speed and the likely higher for its normal speed not being there, I'll get to why later after commenting.
Is where we left off.Im mostly fine with that. If we can just agree on that and call it a day we can get this over with sooner rather then later.
Though the "likely higher/likely far higher" isn't really subjective, ****** can't even be perceived by King Crimson or Diavolo, he even says himself he can't see him attack and the dude basically teleports and does a bunch of shit in said "teleport", all in front of Diavolo. If that isn't a "likely far higher" off the dude he's outright blizting by a hilarious degree then I dont know what is.
When GER threw a rock at Diavolo if GER was on a whole other level then it would have known it purposely attacked KC's hand, instead of seeing it blocking what it was originally aiming for and re-aim in another part.
Diavolo only being able to react to this via precog shows the gap being big, but then again, not on a whole other level.
This future KC shows can't be something GER allowed Diavolo to see as GER doesn't have any powers like it, its RtZ was even yet to kick in as Diavolo didn't attack yet.
WhenGER attacked Diavolo it took it long enough for others to react to it and for KC to pointlessly threat Giorno.
While GER could have held back its power there, I'm very sure that the context of the verse often points to one being able to do so to torture a target a bit while still going at top speed.
Well, I personally disagree with scaling GER overall speed to BIG or MiH theoretical max speed. Due to the fact the rating of "none" is not explicitly said to be superior to actual infinite speed,
and the fact they don't even have infinite speed in most scenarios, and likely wont get it in any given battle.
I could see possibly giving RtZ infinite speed however, does anybody have input on the mechanics of how RTZ is supposed to activate and work? I think that is important to establish first before deciding if it infinite speed or not
Why do you keep saying "theoretical", it isn't, at all, in fact we outright see MIH hit infinite speed on panel. And that's without even getting into BIG, in which the profile is incorrect and needs to be reworked at a later time. Yes, it's not comparable,Still don't agree with scaling "none" to theoretical infinite speeds personally, I don't feel it is clarified that "none" stat > "infinite" stat even in a comparative nature. Can you post the scans quickly here that you feel directly indicate this?
It matters if we treat his ability as passive, automatically activating and autonomous, or conscious effort by himself. These would all effect what the best way to list RtZ is.
Isay theoretical because BIG has never demonstrated Infinite speed, and the way he functions prevents him from using it unless the foe has infinite speed, which is a theoretical scenario that never happened.
MiH for the majority of the time is not at infinite speed, and it takes him time to reach said speed the one time he does it, so its not outright infinite speed from the start of any given battle.
I specified the "none" stat and the "infinite" stat in regards to the stand stats, I thought you were claiming GER's "none" stat is above the "infinite" stat in the stand guides,
but if not I don't see where your arguing for infinite speed from if he isn't demonstrably faster than MiH and BIG.
You're right, because that line is about something else, the reason that line is brought up is for a different reason which gives clarity for a reason other then this. That was explained like 70 posts ago. That line by itself in a vacuum is eh.I saw him stated to be the "ultimate stand" in your scans, but that doesn't indicate to me that his speed surpasses MiH or BIG.
Even if we are applying RtZ only as beyond MiH and BIG you still need proof that RtZ is faster, and applies to the infinite speed level is all im saying.
What specific scan and statement do you feel makes GER, or RtZ faster than MiH at his peak basically, since BiG relies on a theoretical scenario and is iffy to use, and the only one who actually reaches infinite speed is MiH.
First off the hostility isn't appreciated and is counterproductive. I'm simply trying to iron out exactly what your claiming and why. There's no need to be cursing.
It is a theoretical speed for BIG since it's never displayed, whether he is capable of it or not.
I didn't say MiH would never hit that speed, I said that in most battles he would not, and does not reach it.
So I looked at your scans again and all your direct translation for GER in the guide says is it is the ultimate stand, nothing about speed in your translation underneath.
You claimed that his "none" stats are specifically said to exceed any quantifiable stat of the same kind among all other stands as your main argument is what I am seeing, but I can't find the direct quote/wording and scan of this. If you can provide that it would be much appreciated.
Wrong part, that's the part I translated. The part about stats is, well, under his stats.
Translation :
"
After breaking Polnareff's Requiem. Giorno holding the "arrow" buys his own Gorud experience and expresses it. The power of the "arrow" is completely under Giorno's control.
The ability is to return all the actions and intentions of the attacking opponent to nothing. He has an attack power that surpasses the existing stands, so he can be said to be the Ultimate Stand. "
Read what I posted above againI swear to
Wrong part, that's the part I translated. The part about stats is, well, under his stats.
That scan should probably be added as an extra justification for GER Infinite speed rating tbhWasn't there at first but fair enough.
It's going to have to be added after this is done regardless no matter the result, which will hopefully be today, because this is starting to drag.That scan should probably be added as an extra justification for GER Infinite speed rating tbh