GERs Speed is outdated

[manu_zarri]

I personally think that the go go book stataments is valid.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, this shouldn't prove anything as Epitaph shows the end result of everything, KC's hand wouldn't have blocked it if it wasn't for GER attacking, but it's kind of a paradox as the Diavolo in the vision acted due to something he could have only known due to Epitaph, which he doesn't know. We also saw KC block it after GER made the attack and Diavolo said that he can "barely dodge his attacks".

But it does though? If I'm not wrong, you're saying GER targeted somewhere else on King Crimson right? And King Crimson used Epitaph to avoid it and thus only got hit in the hand, but, that's the thing GER never attacked anywhere but the hand, he didn't aim elsewhere, he aimed for the hand, and his hand suddenly having a hole in it is what alerted him to GER's attack, he himself says as much.
To quote.
"I couldn't see it... The moment when attacked." and "The reason why I evaded the brunt of his attack was because I saw the forecast of a hole of a hole appearing in my hand! I can just barely dodge his attacks".
Meaning, we're outright told Diavolo couldn't see when GER actually attacked, but the only reason he could evade was not because he saw him, but simply because he saw the aftermath in Epitaph and dodged ahead of time. And mind you, this is against a pebble that GER casually flicked, obviously a pebble isn't a true indication of his speed and the fact a mere flicked pebble is so fast he can't even perceive it and he can only dodge by basically getting ready ahead of time to react is evidence of a ludicrous gap, not an indication of them being not far apart.

On the latter, Diavolo was the same after "time" turned back, so it makes sense for him to still have the same precog (as much sense as him insulting Giorno as GER is hitting him anyway). My point still stands on the former then?

Eh, I'm not actually so sure, assuming you're talking about the vision still being the same, Epitaph shows the future, if the future was changed, why would Epitaph show what was fated to happen afterwards? It makes little sense but that's more of a subjective discussion thing, not really important here. And if you mean your point about King Crimson striking Giorno, I still disagree and I explained in depth why, but if we're not arguing for him itself to have infinite then it's a pointless topic to continue debating imo.

Point taken, but Mista was able to tell KC was helpless against GER, somewhat implying he saw how he defeated Diavolo, him not really seeing it could refer to it a precise way, let alone what really went down.

I mean, I'd assume Mista would have been able to figure that out from the pebble flick that tore a hole through King Crimson that he couldn't defend against and then suddenly when Giorno got within range, Diavolo suddenly is a bloody pulp flying into a river despite the fact King Crimson was out. Mista knowing King Crimson was helpess could be easily inferred from something he already saw happen and the fact King Crimson was out when GER got within range then suddenly Diavolo is beaten to death. Honestly, all we know about that line is that Mista saw Giorno get close to Diavolo, GER pummeled him to death, and Mista was like "I didn't see what just happened and I dont understand what occurred but neat you won". And that's really the only thing Mista could have possibly been talking about. I stand by my point here, though I do understand a bit of subjective interpretation to his line so I'm not going to say you're wrong.

Point taken again, I knew the anime messed up that but just meant the "You goddamn kid!" and arm(s) movement. But I don't see that happening due to GER stopping as what 100% happened, just a likely take.

Eh, it is true GER did indeed stop. The manga has three panels, GER stopping his beatdown to say something, next panel is Diavolo threatening within erased time, and then next panel is GER beating his ass again. But I don't really see this as reason to say likely higher isnt warranted, we know GER stopped to talk and King Crimson never actually managed to retaliate, GER put him back in his place the moment he tried.

I knew it made him faster into MFTL, but not, say, MFTL+. That all said looking at what we say rates as higher I don't I oppose GER having it in its speed, as it doesn't imply Infinite or MFTL+ speeds. Although I think it's kinda redundant with the "At least" too.

The thing with "At least" is that it implies that GER's baseline is whatever the top tier stands speed are but nothing more explicitly, just that it's his minimum, the issue I have with that is that it isnt his minimum, we know for an absolute fact he ***** on them to the point it isnt even a contest, so treating that as the lower end of his speed isnt technically true, the likely higher I feel is best to add because it indicates that his speed is indeed likely higher then the top tier speedstrs Stands, we just dont know by the exact amount.

Can you propose a wording with evidence to go in the profile? The stuff from the guidebook should be a link into Imgur with the name of the guidebook somewhere there, its og Jap. text in the description, and then a translation below it. Just for good faith so that people may always be able to make its own translation even though we trust what we got.

I can do so, I'll get on all that, I'll also try and rip the kanji from the scans to post in the albums. You want the japanese manga scans too along with the eng albums or will eng suffice for the manga scans? I already looked through them a few days ago and they basically say the same thing more or less so it'd just be there for completeion sake. I'll write up the wording when the albums are done so I can link them with it. Assuming you're talking about the "At least Massively FTL, likely higher" line.

 

[Elizhaa]

Though he is skeptical about the infinite speed proposal for RtZ, Antoniofer looks like he won't reply on the thread.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, hopefully he can talk the matter on a later point in time under his terms.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm hopefully going to be taking the day off from the wiki so if I dont respond for extreme lengths of time, probably why.
Unsure if we came to agreement on the Mista part but eh.
Here's his base speed.

"At least Massively FTL, likely higher (Is the evolved form of Gold Experience which boasts drastically increased speed. Managed to break free of his shell and move to another location without being noticed before King Crimson could finish him off despite being in full view of Diavolo. Could flick a pebble at such speeds that Diavolo couldn't perceive the attack, barely managing to avoid the brunt of it. Mista claimed he couldn't really see or understand what he did to Diavolo in reference to the beatdown that defeated him)."

At least, what I'd like it to be anyway. There's some scans of him being stated to boasts drastically increased power and speed, can dig for them to link for the first line if required but idk kinda speaks for itself.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What about his "infinite activation with RTZ" where does that come from?

 

[Chariot190]

What about his "infinite activation with RTZ" where does that come from?

Did you not follow the thread at all? Because this is getting ridiculous.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just quote the explanation.

 

[Chariot190]

Just quote the explanation.

I have, no less then ten times, actually if I go back and count there'd probably be upwards of 30 times, coupled with several other things.
Ignoring you're basically asking for a "quote the thing that made the thread go on for at least 120 posts", not exactly straightforward otherwise that wouldn't have happened.

 

[Chariot190]

""At least Massively FTL, likely higher (Is the evolved form of Gold Experience, keeping its powers and powering up its stats. While near Diavolo and in his sight, managed to break free of its Gold Experience "shell" and move to another location without being noticed before King Crimson could finish it off. Flicked a pebble at such speeds that Diavolo couldn't perceive the attack, barely managing to avoid the brunt of it. Mista claimed he couldn't really see or understand what he did to Diavolo in reference to the beatdown that defeated him, if maybe in part), Infinite with Return to Zero (Scales above Made in Heaven and Notorious B.I.G as well as the ranking system as a whole, activates in defense against any Stand or Stand ability with seemingly no Stand in existence capable of getting past it).

Throw in the fact it's a pretty blatant example of an "instant" ability.
I say seemingly only because the last time GER's been talked about in anything at all is op to early Part 8, 2013, and there's been a few unconventional Stand abilities that have became a thing, though really only WoU is on that list of actual hax that we have little idea with how it'd interact with GER because everything else is basic as ****.

I can throw together some imgur albums later.

But this is the best I got without getting into giant ass blog territory and literal essay tier, if someone wants to add onto that be my guest. Tbh I didnt really think I'd get this far.
A new RTZ blog may have to be made later and linked in the note section.

Edit:Changed to new version.

 

[Eficiente]

Do take your time, this being done a few days or much more time later doesn't matter.

The proposal is very good but I would change a few things like this;
"At least Massively FTL, likely higher (Is the evolved form of Gold Experience, keeping its powers and powering up its stats. While near Diavolo and on his sight, managed to break free of its Gold Experience "shell" and move to another location without being noticed before King Crimson could finish it off. Flicked a pebble at such speeds that Diavolo couldn't perceive the attack, barely managing to avoid the brunt of it. Mista claimed he couldn't really see or understand what he did to Diavolo in reference to the beatdown that defeated him, if maybe in part)"

The first sentence may be unneeded, we know it boasts speed based on its feats and we already have its feats there, aside from that we only have Diavolo saying it's a power up.

 

[Chariot190]

Do take your time, this being done a few days or much more time later doesn't matter.

If I took all the time I needed, this wouldnt be done till early-mid january given I'm stuck in a hospital till at least late next week. Tbh the sooner this is done the better.

That rework works for me, though, the guides directly state it's a ******* ridiculous buff to his physical attributes including speed so it's not quite just Diavolo, I do have guide scans saying as much, I just gotta dig them out, but if it's unneeded that's fine, the smaller and more cohesive the description the better.

If we have that part settled then that's good.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I'm fine with the mftl part for the record. I am still skeptical about the infinite speed for RtZ however, not just because of my previous points about the scaling/superiority statement for "none" being from a secondary source and an indirect scaling, but also now for the reason Antoniofer brought up when asked about it on his wall pertaining to MiH.

Regardless of my stance on the topic though, if you are going to use BIG you need to change his profile first to reflect he is infinite and to make the profiles pertaining to the scaling consistent.

 

[Chariot190]

being from a secondary source and an indirect scaling

Literally a complete nonargument, if it's written by the author and isn't contradicted (if anything it's consistent with every single other stat we see it demonstrate), then it being from a secondary source means nothing, it's effectively a noncontradictory wog statement which we can use just fine, and indirect scaling? I don't know how you consider "all stands" as indirect if the characters in questions are Stands, you want it to list off all 200 Stands instead when it has like a 200 character limit to say what it wants to say?

Actually, it being from a guide and you thinking that somehow invalidates it means absolutely nothing and isn't an argument, why do you keep repeating that as if it was an actual credible counterpoint? That's ignoring GER's None stats and all is from the original manga as well, the guide just explains why.

the point antonifer brought up on his wall.

I hope to god you dont mean the point about MIH, because, ignoring the fact he said he didn't really read the thread.
Completely irrelevant. Absolutely ******* irrelevant to the point that I'm even having to humor this with a response is absolutely staggering.

I don't think you understand, or even bothered to check, but MIH's speed stat is EXPLICITLY listed as INFINITE pointblank, clear as day, undeniably so, in both guides and source material and we see him hit said speed.
And GER scales above MIH when he hits that speed.
Why doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that he CAN and HAS hit infinite and his SPEED is RATED as such, not by us mind you, even though we do, but by the manga and author itself. Which is the thing you don't seem to get it's not US saying MIH's peak speed is infinite, it's the author and the manga rating him as such (and the Stand itself going on to show us he can indeed hit said speeds on panel) and by proxy the author and such saying GER's None's > Infinite.
Also MIH is gravity manip, not time manip, it just gets time manip via a roundabout way.

Regardless of my stance on the topic though, if you are going to use BIG you need to change his profile first to reflect he is infinite and to make the profiles pertaining to the scaling consistent.

And we'll get on that eventually, you wanted this done first so that's what you'll get, even though as explained above, it's irrelevant, all matters is that he's given an infinite rating and that the infinite rating means what it does, which we know it does because MIH's whole thing is hitting infinite speed and blitzing everything.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Like I said, the scaling is still a secondary source WoG statement, and indirect to, and that is what the argument your making hinges on for scaling. So It's not as solid as if the manga actually stated it directly comparing GER to BIG and MiH or something like that, which would be a indisputable primary canon direct comparisons. Whether it is sufficient regardless though is opinion based and can be accepted as sufficient proof or not. Its like a statement that Broly is the strongest being they have ever faced, proving he is superior to Jiren. Maybe, but there is a degree of doubt as its indirect and a secondary source.

And Antoniofers point that MiH only has infinite speed in a roundabout way by gravity and time manipulation makes perfect sense, it casts doubt on the validity of outright infinite speed scaling when you look at the context of how he gets the stat in the first place. The stand itself isn't actually infinite in physical speed, it achieves it through gravity and time manipulation eventually. This is a perfectly valid point he made and I agree it at least casts doubt on if a side effect of his gravity manipulation should scale. Personally I am doubtful. Context behind the stat is even more important than the stat itself, since we all know MiH isn't even infinite at all without the side effects of gravity and time manipulation over time, so using just the stats as a crutch to claim he is outright infinite is ignoring context and the actual nature of how the stat is given.

So to sum up I am skeptical of infinite speed scaling to GER. I'm not saying its impossible, but it is based on a secondary source's statements about scaling to stats that only achieve infinite speed in context through side effects of the stands abilities under specific circumstances like gravity manipulation and time manipulation. For me its not sufficient proof. Personally I could see putting it as mftl, possibly infinite with RtZ. But outright infinite assumes an absolute where he is beyond a doubt infinite in speed with RtZ, and I don't personally agree with that fra.

 

[Chariot190]

Like I said, the scaling is still a secondary source WoG statement, and indirect to, and that is what the argument your making hinges on for scaling. So It's not as solid as if the manga actually stated it directly comparing GER to BIG and MiH or something like that, which would be a indisputable primary canon direct comparisons. Whether it is sufficient regardless though is opinion based and can be accepted as sufficient proof or not. Its like a statement that Broly is the strongest being they have ever faced, proving he is superior to Jiren. Maybe, but there is a degree of doubt as its indirect and a secondary source.

Yes, like you said, which, is a complete and utter nonargument. And no, news flash, the None stats are IN THE MANGA. And the Infinite ratings are IN THE MANGA. The only ******* thing that's from the guide is the WHY it's listed as None, the REASON and RATINGS themselves are from the PRIMARY SOURCE MATERIAL. This isn't complicated to understand holy shit. It's actually ******* baffling. straight up drop it, calling it a secondary source doesnt invalidate it, it just makes you come off as ignorant because you dont even realize that everything in play originates from the manga itself and the only thing that's secondary (and yet still wog) is clarification as to why it's None because why it was None wasn't explained, it was just said originally, the fact it was None and that comes from the source material tells us the clarification was something that always the case. So yes actually, it is the manga telling us that too, because GER's stats IN THE MANGA are Non, and MIH's stats IN THE MANGA is Infinite. This is super ******* basic. And indirectly? It's literally saying "He exceeds all Stands in every category they apply for". This is direct as ****, not just to them, but EVERY Stand.
Your example is bad and is a false equivalence. It'd only be the same if Akira Toriyama himself said Broly>Jiren while both are at their peak, and in the manga/anime/whatever Jiren was given a line like "oh his power is like 10000000000000000" and the in the same source Broly was said to be "Oh wow this dude's capabilities are so high they cant even be scaled" and then in a secondary source it explains that they cant be scaled because they're above the rest.

And Antoniofers point that MiH only has infinite speed in a roundabout way by gravity and time manipulation makes perfect sense, it casts doubt on the validity of outright infinite speed scaling when you look at the context of how he gets the stat in the first place. The stand itself isn't actually infinite in physical speed, it achieves it through gravity and time manipulation eventually. This is a perfectly valid point he made and I agree it at least casts doubt on if a side effect of his gravity manipulation should scale. Personally I am doubtful. Context behind the stat is even more important than the stat itself, since we all know MiH isn't even infinite at all without the side effects of gravity and time manipulation over time, so using just the stats as a crutch to claim he is outright infinite is ignoring context and the actual nature of how the stat is given.

No offense, but this point is bad and so is you argument for clinging to it as if it changes anything. Ignoring it's abundantly clear you don't actually know what you're talking about, news flash, his physical speed IS that high, regardless of how it's obtained, the context of the stat doesnt change the fact the stat is saying he's ******* Infinite in speed because HE IS. Made In Heaven accelerates itself along with the whole universe to infinity, which allows it to hit infinite speeds, which it actively uses to its advantage and in combat, and as such, he's rated as Infinite speed because his speed ends up hitting infinity. Like holy shit dude, you're grasping at straws here, it doesnt ******* matter WHY he's infinite in speed, all that matters is that he IS infinite in speed which is an absolute undeniable fact, Made In Heaven can reach Infinite speeds and he's rated as Infinite as that's what his speed comes out to and GER is scaled ABOVE THE PEAK SPEED. It doesnt matter what YOU think it qualifies for, all that matters is how Araki treats it because he treats MIH's Infinite speed cap as actual speed and scales GER above said speed, meaning, even if you want to argue semantics of "oh well TECHNICALLY his speed is gained through an ability" or "hes not ALWAYS that fast", it doesnt ******* matter because GER scales above the speed MIH obtains at his best, regardless of how it's obtained and regardless of how long it takes and this has been explained to you so many ******* times over that the fact we're now going through this again and you still havent gotten the hint is baffling, and the worst part is, everything relating to MIH is from the manga, guides be damned here.

So to sum up I am skeptical of infinite speed scaling to GER. I'm not saying its impossible, but it is based on a secondary source's statements about scaling to stats that only achieve infinite speed in context through side effects of the stands abilities under specific circumstances like gravity manipulation and time manipulation.

Again, as said above, it being from a guide means **** all, actually, it's a nonargument and means literally nothing and repeating it over and over isnt going to change a single thing, the line in question is legit, and 95% of the info needed is FROM the manga, not guides, the only thing from a guide relating to GER's scaling is the WHY it's None, the None itself though is from the manga. And again, the WHY they're infinite doesnt ******* matter, point is they can hit infinite speed, and GER scales above said infinite speed, it doesnt matter why they have that speed, all that matters is that they DO have it, that it's legit, and that GER scales above said infinite ratings they're granted which he does. But actually though, why the hell is it being from a guide

For me its not sufficient proof. Personally I could see putting it as mftl, possibly infinite with RtZ. But outright infinite assumes an absolute where he is beyond a doubt infinite in speed with RtZ, and I don't personally agree with that fra.

You FRA is honestly baffling to me, half your argument is "it's from a secondary source", which it ******* aint, everything from the rating and the stats and the feats are from the manga, the ONLY thing that's from a guide, written by the author, is explaining WHY he was given None in the manga, aka, something that is IN the manga. ******* nothing about this originates from a guide, all the guide is doing is giving a clarification to something that's main canon. Your other point regarding MIH is a literal nonfactor, MIH could take a billion years to hit infinite speed and only be capable of hitting that speed on a sunday at 5am exactly while doing a backflip and only once in his life, it wouldnt matter, why? Because the fact remains he DOES hit Infinite speed and as such his speed stat is rated as INFINITE because of the fact he can hit said Infinite speed and GER scales above said rating that he's given due to said ability to hit infinite speed, unless you're about to tell me this doesnt say infinite speed? Because as long as that says infinite, and it's for his speed, and said infinite speed is actually talking about being able to go so fast that you're moving at infinite velocity (which it is), then, the why doesnt matter. Possibly doesnt cut it here, we know MIH has Infinite speed, we know he's given the infinite rating, and we know GER any Stand that uses the scale and their stats as a whole. For as long as MIH's speed is listed as Infinite by jojo media and GER's listed as None, then GER>MIH's Infinite. There is no possibly, this is exactly how it goes, and that's without even getting into the fact no stand in existence is supposed to be able to get one over on RTZ (and even then, that;'s without even touching upon how every canon from the main likes to have GER able to stomp MIH casually, even through raw speed).

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Snip

Dude Calm down

 

[Chariot190]

Dude Calm down

At this point, yeah, I wasn't before, that actually was just force of habit, but now I am actually getting kind of pissed off.
i shouldn't have to reiterate the exact same thing a hundred times against arguments that completely ignore the parts that actually matter to focus on semantics that don't effect anything or the end result or somehow discrediting a guide when all said guide tells us is clarification on things that already existed in the source material.
Once or twice fine, even a dozen, fine, but going on 200 posts soon when literally no new information has been brought up since like post 50? That's when it becomes completely ridiculous and a huge waste of time and effort. Actually, what new piece of information has been brought up in the last 100 posts that everyone didnt already know except the Mista couldnt really follow GER thing? I cant think of a single thing.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It wouldnt end up with rage and back and forth arguing if people would actually listen and not insert head canons

Chariot still made up better arguments then the opposition who disagree with his comments

 

[SSJRyu1]

Despite if you believe your arguments are better or not, or if you feel like I am repeating things, you have continuously and excessively been swearing and been belligerent toward me just because I don't agree with all your points and you feel I should agree with your logic. I know you are capable of not doing so to because other comments you posted have little to no cussing and belligerent remarks. Regardless of my stance on the topic at hand this is now blatantly a rules violation for excessive cursing and belligerent remarks targeting an individual even when asked to stop by myself and Elizhaa. I will be reporting it on the rule violation thread unless it stops immediately.

As for this topic see above, I did not claim the stats are not in the manga, I claimed the explanation that "none" is superior to all other stats for existing stands is guide only, which it is to my knowledge, as well as statements about it being the ultimate stand with abilities that surpass the others etc. being guide only.

Context is very relevant, it does not specify peak stats or anything like that, it just says its abilities are superior in general to existing stands. Given the nature of how MiH achieves infinite speed through a side effect of gravity manip and time manip over time, it casts doubt on scaling GER to outright infinite speed from my perspective, and I'm not the only one who feels that way clearly since that argument was first brought up by another staff member. Just because you don't agree that it casts doubt doesn't mean others can't have a different interpretation on if it should scale as outright infinite or not.

 

[Chariot190]

Despite if you believe your arguments are better or not, or if you feel like I am repeating things, you have continuously and excessively been swearing and been belligerent toward me just because I don't agree with all your points and you feel I should agree with your logic.

Oh, it has nothing to do about you agreeing or not, it's more along the lines of almost every single argument you made are either literal nonarguments, semantics, completely irrelevant, or you simply not knowing what you're actually arguing against, in which case, yeah, at that point don't know what you expect from me when you waste this time without even bringing up a single new piece of info that everyone isnt already well aware. You want to disagree with me? That's fine, you're entitled to that and I'm not about to tell you to change that, but I'm also not going to act like the reason you're giving as to why actually checks out you can think those reasons, but I'm going to stand by my point every single time they're brought up (unless you actually get new info that would warrant me to change my own stance).

I know you are capable of not doing so to because other comments you posted have little to no cussing and belligerent remarks.

You're just straight up ******* wrong on that front dude. And belligerent remarks? If you make a stupid argument, I'm not going to treat it as what it isn't. If it's bad I'm going to call it bad, and if it's a tremendous false equivalence, I'll call it that too, and so on. Would you prefer I lie and sugarcoat what I actually think? I'd say that's worse than just saying what I think.

Regardless of my stance on the topic at hand this is now blatantly a rules violation for excessive cursing and belligerent remarks targeting an individual even when asked to stop by myself and Elizhaa. I will be reporting it on the rule violation thread unless it stops immediately.

Excessive swearing? Would likely happen regardless (And Im sure a few people can even testify to that, because I do so even in friendly conversation). Targeting you? At that point I'm inclined to say if you don't like me calling out your arguments, I'm not sure why you're on a forum basically dedicated to that sort of thing, which unfortunately, isnt always going to go without a single blunt critique or statement. I think your arguments are bad, I stand by what I said, and I'm not going to change my stance on that. I explained why I think so, I explained the issues that your arguments hold, I even went far enough to where I even pointed out which semantics don't actually effect the end result. Also the fact you said "targeting an individual" is a gross exaggeration, I've at best said two things that could actually be deemed hostile, one I took back and one was a **** up on my wording, the rest? Well at that point don't know what to tell you, there's a difference between being blunt and explicit compared to actual targeted hostility, because this sure as hell ain't it, if you think it's targeted, that's probably because you're the person I'm actually talking to so no shit anything I say is going to be in response to you or your posts.

As for this topic see above, I did not claim the stats are not in the manga, I claimed the explanation that "none" is superior to all other stats for existing stands is guide only, which it is to my knowledge, as well as statements about it being the ultimate stand with abilities that surpass the others etc. being guide only.

I can't tell if you're doing this on purpose or not, because this is kinda getting to the point it's ******* dumb, ignoring it being from a guide is a literal nonfactor and you somehow thinking this matters at all (it doesnt, the quote is fine, the guide is fine, and whether or not you think it does or not literally doesnt matter because your opinion on the guide that you have little to no idea the actual credibility on doesn't support you, it just wastes all our time having to repeat this over and over again because you think it matters for some reason).
Here's the thing you don't seem to understand, the "None" for GER? It's in the manga, what's that mean? It means being superior to the stats as a whole and every Stand is a thing, that's in the manga, this wasnt made up in the guide, this didnt originate elsewhere, this is from the manga itself. You're unironically clinging and banking on the fact the explanation as to WHY it's like that being from a guide somehow changes the fact that it's from the manga, like, would you prefer we act like that statement doesn't exist and we just sit here pretending we don't know what the "None" entails even though we know exactly what it means? Because that's even worse.
And the Ultimate Stand? That's literally the whole point of GER, the guide just says it again, hell it's not even the only time that's been a thing. And abilities to surpass all others? No, that's also established in the manga as well, ******* nothing can even touch him and he goes on to casually rip apart a god tier Stand. hell he's demonstrably the ultimate stand in basically every category from feats alone.

Context is very relevant, it does not specify peak stats or anything like that, it just says its abilities are superior in general to existing stands.

It actually does, why? Because MIH is rated at its peak, and GER is above that rating, as MIH uses the scale, while GER outright cant because he's above it. Same goes for BIG who's tied with MIH. You talk about context but have no idea what the context actually is. I dont even mean to offend, I actually do not think you fully know what you're arguing against here or the context of their stats.

Given the nature of how MiH achieves infinite speed through a side effect of gravity manip and time manip over time, it casts doubt on scaling GER to outright infinite speed from my perspective,

Are you incapable of reading the above posts? You just repeated the exact same thing as if I didn't explain in great detail why the **** that doesn't matter.

and I'm not the only one who feels that way clearly since that argument was first brought up by another staff member.

You mean the staff member who didnt actually read the thread, said as much, and just kinda went "well MIH's speed is obtained through it's unique ability", that isn't him agreeing with you, that's him saying something everybody already knows and doesn't actually effect the argument at all., he isn't even really wrong, it's just not relevant to the argument at hand I don't think you realize that your argument here could be 100% at face value true and not actually effect anything, you know that right? I have a sneaking suspicion you don't quite understand the inuniverse concepts and things you're arguing against here, because they don't work the way you think it does.

Just because you don't agree that it casts doubt doesn't mean others can't have a different interpretation on if it should scale as outright infinite or not.

I don't agree with you outright ignoring the very straightforward explanation given to you like two dozen times. Why the **** are we even arguing this still, your point isn't even an argument, it's "Well MIH gets his speed through an ability", like, yeah, literally everyone in this thread knows that and knew that since they read Part 6. This isn't new and you're not breaking any new ground by bringing that up, it's something we all know already. the issue is that there is no interpretation, this isn't subjective, you know what's subjective? The mista thing above, that's open to some interpretation for example, but this? This isn't. It couldn't get anymore explicit in the words it had to use.

And I'll make this incredibly easy for you, does this say Infinite and speed? If the answer is yes, this whole semantic bullshit is a non argument and I explained why above in the thread, if the answer is yes this whole argument is a waste of time.
And I outright don't want to hear you say the word "guide" or "secondary source" again, because every time you've said those, you said it in the context of it somehow invalidating it or it not counting for some reason, the clarification exists, it's legit, it's about something directly in the manga, it comes from the author, it's not contradicted, it coincides with the showings and info we know of the source material, there is not a single reason why we wouldn't use this and we're not going to not use it.

 

[SSJRyu1]

At this point I am disengaging from any further comments toward @Chariot190 due to the fact I feel that the discussion has become hostile, circular and unproductive, and doesn't seem like it will be changing at this time. I have no issue with his disagreeing with my points, I take issue in the excessive swearing, hostile remarks, and backhanded comments about how my points are "irrelevant", "stupid", and the callous assertions that I have no idea what I'm talking about. My stance on the topic has not changed and can be seen above in my previous comments, and if anybody else has new information they wish to talk about I will discuss it with them.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You yourself didnt brought up anything new, just repeated old comments and precisely your opinion with your issues on these, which were adressed even before you came in to argue Chariot

Thread is basically getting derailed mostly by you as of now, refusing to actually counter his arguments and bringing the same things already touched on just to instigate Chariot

If you cant handle being told numerous times that you were being wrong by him and/or actually contribute, you better off unsubscribe from the thread, this reached 2 pages from just back and forth arguing of the same points debunked by Chariot

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yeah, might as well just say that you concede if you dont want to address his arguments

 

[Ionliosite]

I still agree with SSJRyu. And I still don't see why is BIG being used as an argument when not only don't we have it as Infinite, the manga very blatantly contradicts that by actually showing how BIG's speed works - it's faster than whatever it follows. This isn't Infinite speed at all, so there's no reason to use it. This leaves MiH's absolute top speed that it only reaches to do its Low 2-C feat, not exactly something that can be used for scaling.

 

[M3X_2.0]

At this point we should just count the votes and call it a day

 

[Catalyst75]

So yeah, the title. GER's current justification for his speed doesn't qualify him for infinite speed anymore, and hasn't for some time (since May, 4 2020 when the note for voids was changed, or almost 8 months ago), since moving in timeless voids no longer grants infinite speed.

His explanation currently "Infinite with Gold Experience Requiem (Its Return to Zero worked within erased time, later GER was able to move and even talk)"

Maybe there is other proof of him having infinite speed, but all I've seen is a few claims lacking scans to support them that GER is unquestionably faster than notorious big and MiH, neither of which even have infinite speed in the first place at the start, or in most circumstances, and neither of which have had their speed directly compared to GER's to my knowledge.

I get revisions take time, but he has needed one for 8 months now, is one of the most popular profiles, and he effects some other characters with his speed rating to. So unless there is concrete proof of him having infinite speed from something other than a timeless void feat, he should probably be downgraded, as well as those scaled to his speed.

To throw my own hat into the ring, wouldn't it be possible to consider that the reason why Gold Experience Requiem could work within "erased time" is that its own time was not erased? Because of its ability to "Return to Zero", not even the ability to "erase time" would normally affect it or its awareness of events. As I understand, one of the crucial aspects of King Crimson is that the "erased time" includes a person's awareness of events within the "erased time".

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also going to agree with SSJRYU

 

[Rikimarox2]

Agreeing with Chariot here.

 

[Zel97]

I agree with chariot.

Though he got a bit violent, the opposition also brought up arguments that were debunked a page ago.

 

[Hasty12345]

To throw my own hat into the ring, wouldn't it be possible to consider that the reason why Gold Experience Requiem could work within "erased time" is that its own time was not erased? Because of its ability to "Return to Zero", not even the ability to "erase time" would normally affect it or its awareness of events. As I understand, one of the crucial aspects of King Crimson is that the "erased time" includes a person's awareness of events within the "erased time".

would it be possible for someone really knowledgeable to give their take on this?

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless There is a difference between not discussing it further due to conceding, and due to the other party breaking the site rules in regards to hostility and excessive profanity, not to mention my own standards as to who I am willing to associate with based on how they interact with me. In this case it is the later since I have not changed my stance on the points, and have given my stance on his, but am unwilling to converse with @Chariot190 anymore as long as he acts in that manner. By all means if others want to discuss the topic with me we can though, I am not saying I will not discuss the topic.

 

[Veryfunnydidlaugh]

Agree with Chariot.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I still agree with Chariot

 

[SSJRyu1]

I believe that the arguments have been made, most people know what they are, everybody agrees more or less with the mftl part, there is a divide in the infinite speed part, and there is support for both sets of arguments. There needs to be some more impartial staff weighing in on it at this point to decide which we will go with. The decision on this character should be made with several impartial admins reviewing it honestly given how high profile and controversial the character is. Also I should remind everybody that many people at the start of the thread agreed with the downgrade at that time to just mftl, but haven't weighed in since then. So I would like to see several admins weigh in before concluding the thread, since voting alone is not always a good way to conclude a topic, and those who voted for just mftl originally may or may not still feel that way, but there only vote was for just mftl.

 

[Elizhaa]

Looking back on SSJRyu's point, I think that At least Massively FTL+, possibly infinite with RtZ works better. Infinite speed for RtZ to zero is not solid, to me.
I feel like this thread would be best continued in a staff thread, with a summary of this thread's arguments in the OP; we would more proper staff inputs on that thread.

@SSJRyu1 @Eficiente and others, what are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I disagree with "possibly" for RtZ. It's just ignoring all of Chariot's comments and going with your own idea, even tho 70% of people that comment here are in favor of RtZ being infinite.

You actually should prove that the thing isn't solid, not only say that and don't explain. Considering that RtZ is just a possibility, we are also accepting that Made In Heaven stand a chance against GER, and it doesn't. It doesn't matter if Made In Heaven speedblitz and kill Giorno, GER would still work and 'return all actions to zero'. It doesn't matter if Made In Heaven reset the universe, GER would "unreset" everything. That's how it works. I'm in favor of RtZ to be infinite as a solid rating.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah same, this shit should straight up be infinite.

 

[Chariot190]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless There is a difference between not discussing it further due to conceding, and due to the other party breaking the site rules in regards to hostility and excessive profanity, not to mention my own standards as to who I am willing to associate with based on how they interact with me. In this case it is the later since I have not changed my stance on the points, and have given my stance on his, but am unwilling to converse with @Chariot190 anymore as long as he acts in that manner. By all means if others want to discuss the topic with me we can though, I am not saying I will not discuss the topic.

Actually get over it. There's people in this very thread who are worse then me and the worst you can see is I was a bit rude twice, everything else? Standard fair that happens all the time on the wiki and debating in general. And swearing? The worst Ive said is **** and shit.

Your "points" aren't actually points, hell, the worst part about ALL of this is that in almost every single one of your posts, you never actually tried debating what i said, you said why something is the way it is, but never actually tried to explain why my points were wrong or flawed, only repeating that they arent or repeating info that we all already knew and acting like it actually effects a single one of my points (they dont).
And when half your points are "it's a guide it doesnt count" and "MIH's infinite speed is obtained through his ability", then no offense, but those aren't points, one's a literal nonargument that doesn't effect the conversation at all and isnt going to and would only matter if we straight up dont use the guide at all, and the latter has outright ignored every single explanation to why it doesnt matter and why MIH getting it through his ability is completely irrelevant to GER scaling above it.
Your points aren't points, it's actually just you trying to discredit something because it goes against what you want and trying to argue semantics that don't effect the result of anything.
I'm vehemently against a Possibility because it's wrong and there's almost no subjectivity in play here, MFTL? Likely higher? A few of the feats? I'm willing to compromise and be reasonable in regards to those because the opposition has fair actual points on things that could possibly be open to interpretation? This though? It isnt and your arguments arent actually arguments.

 

[Chariot190]

I still agree with SSJRyu. And I still don't see why is BIG being used as an argument when not only don't we have it as Infinite, the manga very blatantly contradicts that by actually showing how BIG's speed works - it's faster than whatever it follows. This isn't Infinite speed at all, so there's no reason to use it. This leaves MiH's absolute top speed that it only reaches to do its Low 2-C feat, not exactly something that can be used for scaling.

I don't care what "we" have it as, because we're wrong on that front and it should be changed when we get around to it, hell a few things about BIG need tweaking, not just that.
Wrong, blatantly wrong, I even posted the japanese scan of where that line comes from, and the line doesn't exist, there's no contradiction at all here but like 5 things saying its speed is infinite and it can be rated as such, is he always going infinite speed? No, of course not, but that doesn't change the fact it can hit said speed and he's canonically listed to have such speed and there's nothing saying otherwise outside of the eng translation.
And you miss the point, it doesn't matter how MIH gets his speed, quite literally all that matters is that he does get it and said infinite speed is legit when he does and he's rated as such to convey that.