GERs Speed is outdated

Status
Not open for further replies.
2,248
273
Actually I said personally that I think it's both based on what we see it do and how it's been used.
The main issue is that we're never explicitly told it's any of them, it's not said in the manga or any guide.
As such, it's open to interpretation to an extent.
But that doesn't mean GER wasn't effected by the time erase, we kinda see it.
Indeed, is because of both being on the same validity as interpretations that we should take both, since is either one of them at 50/50.
 
4,932
904
I told that he has both, not either one of them lol

Case and point, Strym says that GER likely has fate resistance, which outright completely invalidates and makes the excuse of GER being bound by fate to lose that situation a complete nonfactor because it would be blatantly untrue at that point as he WOULDNT have been bound and forced by fate to get gouged.
The only excuse to that scene and exchange is invalidated when you give him fate resistance, and if you give him fate resistance then it becomes impossible to say he wasnt barely slower on the draw.
It can't be both, they effect the scene in different ways that reaches contradictory conclusions.
 
4,932
904
He isnt affected....you have literally no proof, cant believe you buy that crap
Bro, you can see that he's effected. Like, you can literally see it in action.

Indeed, is because of both being on the same validity as interpretations that we should take both, since is either one of them at 50/50.

Or it's both, which is imo kinda exactly what we see. But even then, not how it works, worse case scenario, he still got effected by the time skip and wasnt' cognizant, like, you can't just ignore that to say "well it was manual then".
Because we know he was effected when it went off.
 
2,248
273
It can't be both, they effect the scene in different ways that reaches contradictory conclusions.
Which contradictory showings?

Is either GER fucking with Diavolo and being aware in the Erase, but wanting just to trigger RtZ at the last moment or RtZ activating automatcally and GER being aware of such since Diavolo stated so in RtZ.
Or it's both, which is imo kinda exactly what we see. But even then, not how it works, worse case scenario, he still got effected by the time skip and wasnt' cognizant, like, you can't just ignore that to say "well it was manual then".
Because we know he was effected when it went off.
Good, this puts at 3 scenarios, each one of equal validity, and the likely/possibly is still valid due to "possibly" accepting even less likely ratings.
 
4,932
904
Also no you just take the opposition side because they dont agree with it and their faulty arguments
Are you really telling this to the person who spend like 300 posts arguing against the opposition because their arguments were flawed as all fuck?
I'll back what's actually warranted, I'm not going to agree with something while ignoring the opposing evidence that has merit the same way I'm not going to disagree with something like this threads original intent because of actual evidence and proof of the contrary.
 
4,932
904
Which contradictory showings?

If GER doesnt resist fate then that scene doesnt hard debunk base infinite speed, but only if we assume that GER was forced and fated to lose that interaction no matter how impossible. But if he resists fate, then he was never bound, and yet, the vision had him getting gouged out regardless, meaning he was simply not fast enough to defend because it sure as hell wasnt fate forcing him to lose that meaning no infinite speed.
They can't coexist, you can't have both.

Is either GER fucking with Diavolo and being aware in the Erase, but wanting just to trigger RtZ at the last moment or RtZ activating automatcally and GER being aware of such since Diavolo stated so in RtZ.

GER was fucking with Diavolo, but not in the way you're insinuating, in fact at this point saying he was "fucking with" gives a wrong implication as to what that actually entailed. And "just wanting to", so you're actually saying he was just pretending to be effected and somehow had the time erase effects actively effect him still. And yes, GER does move in time erase and Diavolo says as much, after RTZ already kicked in and prior that wasn't an actual thing.

Good, this puts at 3 scenarios, each one of equal validity, and the likely/possibly is still valid due to "possibly" accepting even less likely ratings.

Dude you can't keep saying "so these are the options" while ignoring why some of those options don't fully add up in regards to the context itself.

At this point, actually take it up with Efi, she's the main advocator of "GER was effected by Time Skip and wasn't cognizant".
 
Affected where? Literally nowhere, him pretending isnt proof and neither you have to say RTZ can go without him, nothing supports that anywhere

None of the opposition thing has any good counter, neither the epitaph thing yet you wanna count it as if that disproves it, yeah no

You either accept the proposed thing and concede as possibly or we aint gonna reach the end of this like diavolo
 
Why you still bring them up? Since when we should listen to flawed arguments? You dont take them in consideration when is no basis to do so, let alone when the series itself says otherwise, i will take what jojo says, not her word that ignores its plot
 

M3X

4,794
1,051
Since @StrymULTRA has asked a lot of staff to comment here, it seems really hard to just tell them to read the arguments. I think it's better to quote the relevant arguments to bring them up.
 
4,932
904

Affected where? Literally nowhere, him pretending isnt proof and neither you have to say RTZ can go without him, nothing supports that anywhere

Do you REALLY need a complete breakdown and deconstruction of the scene over something you can literally see just by looking at it. You can see that he's effected, there's a reason why his movement is limited and he's being subjugated to the forecasting, that doesn't happen if one isn't effected, which we even see later when RTZ kicks in an he's now able to move just like Diavolo does. Unless you're about to tell me GER can just so happen mimic and replicate the effects that time erase has on a being visually onto himself to fool Diavolo. Nothing to say RTZ can go on without him? You realize that this IS the proof right? This scene right here why, it's visual proof.

None of the opposition thing has any good counter, neither the epitaph thing yet you wanna count it as if that disproves it, yeah no

The opposition has barely any counters, but the counters that are there are kind of undeniable, the Epitaph thing is explicitly hard proof, especially if we plan on giving him fate resistance as the only excuse, the thing you've been saying makes it so it doesnt discredit infinite base speed, would simply no longer apply at all.

You either accept the proposed thing and concede as possibly or we aint gonna reach the end of this like diavolo

I could say the same to you, unless you get some actual proper evidence and don't actively ignore the things that put in a wrench in your proposal, I outright refuse to do so. I'm not going to accept a proposal that's faulty and based on half truths and the blatant ignoring of evidence that suggests otherwise while simultaneously not having enough to counter said evidence, I outright refuse, it's wrong and I'm not going to pretend it's right.
 
4,932
904
Why you still bring them up? Since when we should listen to flawed arguments? You dont take them in consideration when is no basis to do so, let alone when the series itself says otherwise, i will take what jojo says, not her word that ignores its plot
What the fuck dude. You realize JoJo doesn't actually SAY what what you're claiming you're acting like these things don't exist, sorry but they do and you pretending they don't isn't going to change this. And plot? I don't think you understand what plot entails, this isnt even plot relevant nor does the plot hold any answers to what you're claiming. You can't say "i will take what jojo says" when it doesn't say what you think it does.

Efi's opinion isn't absolute either, there are way more mods who are supporters lmao

It isn't absolute, but neither is your opinion, you've had your chance to speak, she can have her's. And that last bit is false, there's barely any mods who are actually supporters, Efi is one of the few really.
 
4,932
904
I think that she should take a really good reading of this thread tho, her current points are pretty much outdated tbh.
Her only two points that hold merit still are the time erase cognizant thing (which literally doesn't change anything, you know that right? Even if GER was conscious, he's still not scaling above infinite due to the following point, only RTZ would) and the epitaph sequence, and she's not the only one for the latter, Damage said as much as well.
 
2,248
273
To all the new stuff coming here, there are the relevant points:
  1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
  2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook saying that its None stats are given due to them being non-measurable for that standards of the Jojoverse, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
  3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.
 
4,932
904
To all the new stuff coming here, there's the relevant points.
  1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
  2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
  3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.
You skimmed a LOT of points, and the 3rd point isn't the actual relevant point of discussion at the moment.
You also didn't list the evidence and information we have that allows us to reach a conclusion and figure out which varying points are of relevance, legit and so on and how certain things should be treated.
And the 3rd point straight up doesn't matter, the dude could have done a backflip and told King Crimson to eat shit before RTZ activated, as long as GER failed to defend against King Crimson in the vision, he cant scale to infinite, only RTZ, and whether it's manual, automatic and so on doesn't matter, if I pulled out a gun and then shot it, I still wouldnt be as fast as it even if was the person who fired it.
 
He wasnt affected, i see no affect on him visually, its bs on which you jumped on too out of nowhere and the fate point still stands for the epitaph thing

I know what part 5 has and presented and it says what i said even before you got in the thread to comment vs effi, so no

You used flawed arguments from effi and act as if she is right or has merit, it doesnt and not going believe it especially when earlier to me her responses where "no, no, no, i dont actually believe it cuz thats what i think", thats how we doing now?

Argue all you want defending that interpretation, its innacurate and it will just give a bad reputation being treated as such if we accept this non sense of only RTZ being infinite
 
2,248
273
Do you REALLY need a complete breakdown and deconstruction of the scene over something you can literally see just by looking at it. You can see that he's effected, there's a reason why his movement is limited and he's being subjugated to the forecasting, that doesn't happen if one isn't effected, which we even see later when RTZ kicks in an he's now able to move just like Diavolo does. Unless you're about to tell me GER can just so happen mimic and replicate the effects that time erase has on a being visually onto himself to fool Diavolo. Nothing to say RTZ can go on without him? You realize that this IS the proof right? This scene right here why, it's visual proof.
The reason why GER's actions were being able to be seen from GER is because at that time it was still below Giorno's control, who doesen't resist the Time Erase. But not just that.

As I told before, he wanted to show to Diavolo how wrong can his previsions be against him, and thus, he didn't immediately blitz him, and as how he spoke, it seemed like that the "surprise" was planned to make Diavolo realize that no matter what he does, he'd still lose even if it was written in the truth that he'll win against Giorno. So, we can say that GER took control of himself when Diavolo was about to hit Giorno, who was fated to lose, and opposed to the fate of his User. Aka, while Giorno was indeed supposed to lose, GER could revert such fate, making it never happening.
 
4,932
904
He wasnt affected, i see no affect on him visually, its bs on which you jumped on too out of nowhere and the fate point still stands for the epitaph thing

Then you're blind, are you really going to say that you don't see multiple afterimages and trails emitting from GER? Because news flash, that mean's he's effected by it and isn't in control. Your fate point isnt even valid, we're planning on giving his fate resistance. And best case scenario, even if we don't it becomes at best a doubtful maybe let along as straightforward as you think.

I know what part 5 has and presented and it says what i said even before you got in the thread to comment vs effi, so no

And I don't care, if you know then you also know that the shit you're claiming is teetering on headcanon. Your points before have no relevance to me, I don't care what you and Efi said to each other because at the end of the day that's not important, what's important is two very crucial counterpoints, and as long as said points exist, your conclusion is dishonest at best, lying at worse.

You used flawed arguments from effi and act as if she is right or has merit, it doesnt and not going believe it especially when earlier to me her responses where "no, no, no, i dont actually believe it cuz thats what i think", thats how we doing now?

I don't give a shit WHO made those arguments, those arguments have actual real issues in play and if you're incapable of seeing that then no offense, but I severaly doubt your credibility to be unbiased here. I don't give a shit what she said, even if 99% of what she said was wrong, if that last 1% has backing, then that 1% has back and can't be ignored, which is exactly what you're doing. We're doing things the right way, we're not going to pretend shit didn't happen or outright fabricate scenarios and context to say shit happened a way it very clearly did not.

Argue all you want defending that interpretation, its innacurate and it will just give a bad reputation being treated as such if we accept this non sense of only RTZ being infinite

This isn't an interpretation, the Epitaph scene? It happened, you may not like it, but it happened, and Occam's Razer exists, meaning? If you have to make a bunch of assumptions and things that aren't actually suggested by the source material to make sense of it, instead of like, just taking what we know and see, then no, we don't use that, Occam's Razer says no to that. What's inaccurate is pretending that everything is fine and that there isn't points and evidence suggesting otherwise, i said the same to the opposition and I'm going to say the same to you, it goes both ways. We'll accept it because GER physically is demonstrably not infinite, which is what you don't understand.
 
4,932
904
The reason why GER's actions were being able to be seen from GER is because at that time it was still below Giorno's control, who doesen't resist the Time Erase. But not just that.

Ok come the fuck on now, why are you making things up, "GER's actions could be seen because he was under Giorno's control", that's absolute complete conjecture that isn't found or even hinted at ANYWHERE in all of jojo media.
It's simply not a thing, made even worse as GER was never under Giorno's control, he was always fully in control of his own actions, you're really going to sit there and pretend that some arbitrary made up rule that GER was being controlled by Giorno that's why he was effected initially is what happened? No, I'm not here to argue conjecture or made up things. Try again.

As I told before, he wanted to show to Diavolo how wrong can his previsions be against him, and thus, he didn't immediately blitz him, and as how he spoke, it seemed like that the "surprise" was planned to make Diavolo realize that no matter what he does, he'd still lose even if it was written in the truth that he'll win against Giorno.

You did say that before, but it's complete conjecture in the notion of the actual events GER was preventing, yeah he was preventing the future comeing to pass, yeah he was talking about how Diavolo would never reach that future, but you know what isn't true? That the vision in Epitaph wasnt actually something that was going to happen, it WAS going to happen and it was going to happen the way shown, GER stopping it from happening doesn't change that in said vision he was demonstrably not infinite. Was it planned? Hell maybe, but has absolutely zero effect on if GER was effected by time skip or the vision Diavolo had, whatever Diavolo did would have ended with that being said, even though GER is likely talking directly to Diavolo in reference to Diavolo saying that his vision chose him still, so yes, if GER proceeds to say "hey your vision does show you things, but it wont come to pass against me" in response to Diavolo saying "Im still gonna win, my vision chose me still", well that's just basic language skills. Regardless, that's irrelevant, doesnt change what we know.

So, we can say that GER took control of himself when Diavolo was about to hit Giorno, who was fated to lose, and opposed to the fate of his User. Aka, while Giorno was indeed supposed to lose, GER could revert such fate, making it never happening.

"he took control of himself when he was effected by Time Erase because he was controlled by Giorno even though if he was effected in the first place he wouldn't be cognizant to take control of himself in the first place".
You're not thinking through the implications of your claims here.
I hope you realize the reason GER would get fate resistance would involve Giorno too fyi, but that doesn't change anything, in the vision.
Yes, GER could revert such fate, doesn't change the fact GER in the potential future simply failed to defend and was barely edged out in that hyper specific situation, which wouldnt have happened if his base was infinite.
 
"Plan on giving fate resistance to him", newflash that isnt a thing and neither gonna happen, the fact fate from epitaph shown that scenario counters the idea of resistance to ever going be, you ignore it and side with effi flawed argument

Also it was uncalled for to insult by calling someone blind, if you yourself cant see how unfounded that is defending her claim, he wasnt affected at all, its head canon, RTZ has no indication to say it goes without him, we seen stands doing their abilities in time erase and still did not work against KC ever to harm or be unaffected by it, saying rtz is the exception isnt working

Excuse me but the bias card goes to effi and you at this point, you both argue against the series telling us otherwise and her responses with "no, no, no, cuz i think so" is more then enough, who is biased here in actuality, whether you care or not, it doesnt change this point

Also 99% bs and 1% something relevant isnt in your favor either, if its 99% bs, it is snd that counts more then what little % left which on its own if analyzed ends up bs too

Its not lying or dishonesty, its ignorance to the series telling YOU, that you arent correct
 
Last edited:
2,248
273
Ok come the fuck on now, why are you making things up, "GER's actions could be seen because he was under Giorno's control", that's absolute complete conjecture that isn't found or even hinted at ANYWHERE in all of jojo media.
It's simply not a thing, made even worse as GER was never under Giorno's control, he was always fully in control of his own actions, you're really going to sit there and pretend that some arbitrary made up rule that GER was being controlled by Giorno that's why he was effected initially is what happened? No, I'm not here to argue conjecture or made up things. Try again.
Giorno controlled GER as even Trish confirmed lol, he just takes action from himself if Giorno can't defend himelf against attacks.
You did say that before, but it's complete conjecture in the notion of the actual events GER was preventing, yeah he was preventing the future come to pass, yeah he was talking about how Diavolo would never reach that future, but you know what isn't true? That the vision in Epitaph wasnt actually something that was going to happen, it WAS going to happen and it was going to happen the way shown, GER stopping it from happening doesn't change that in said vision he was demonstrably not infinite. Was it planned? Hell maybe, but has absolutely zero effect on if GER was effected by time skip or the vision Diavolo had, whatever Diavolo did would have ended with that being said, even though GER is likely talking directly to Diavolo in reference to Diavolo saying that his vision chose him still, so yes, if GER proceeds to say "hey your vision does show you things, but it wont come to pass against me" in response to Diavolo saying "Im still gonna win, my vision chose me still", well that's just basic language skills. Regardless, that's irrelevant, doesnt change what we know.
Simple, it didn't preidct GER's taking controll, as suggested from this thread, GER itself should have resistance to pregognition since his own actions aren't shown in Diavolo's Epitaph, not Giorno
"he took control of himself when he was effected by Time Erase because he was controlled by Giorno even though if he was effected in the first place he wouldn't be cognizant to take control of himself in the first place".
You're not thinking through the implications of your claims here.
I hope you realize the reason GER would get fate resistance would involve Giorno too fyi, but that doesn't change anything, in the vision.
Yes, GER could revert such fate, doesn't change the fact GER in the potential future simply failed to defend and was barely edged out in that hyper specific situation, which wouldnt have happened if his base was infinite.
Nope, because Diavolo could see Giorno's fate, not also GER's, learn the difference. The User is under Diavolo abilities, but the stand himself isn't, and as I told before, it's because GER acts freerly when Giorno can't fight. So, GER under Giorno's abilities: bound from speed and fate, but when it takes control and is free, then is not.
 
4,932
904
"Plan on giving fate resistance to him", newflash that isnt a thing and neither gonna happen, the fact fate from epitaph shown that scenario counters the idea of resistance ever gonna be, you ignore it and sude with effi flawed argument

Dude, I hope you realize that even if we take what you say at face value, there's still the issue Damage brought up in that, things that are 100% impossible wouldnt just be shown randomly fate or not. And since when did you get to decide that? Even Strym agrees with that. Why are you saying that I'm siding with Efi? I'm not siding with anyone, I'm saying it how it is.

Also it was uncalled for to insult by calling someone blind, if you yourself cant see how unfounded that is defending her claim,

Wasn't an insult, it was an observation. I'll defend the claim because it's not actually incorrect, there's actual backing to it.

he wasnt affected at all, its head canon,

And I'll say it again, you're blind, we LITERALLY see him be effected, it happens, this isn't an "oh well maybe this or that", no, we fucking see it happen on panel/screen/etc. This isn't subject to debate, it quite literally happened. And headcanon? I hope to god you're joking because every other thing you've said ignores what we actually see and is based on your own unfounded explanations and conjecture of the scene that isn't actually said anywhere.

RTZ has no indication to say it goes without him, we seen stands doing their abilities in time erase and still did not work against KC ever to harm or be unaffected by it, saying rtz is the exception isnt working

RTZ literally working on panel/screen when GER wasn't cognizant is quite literally the proof we need, that's the indication. Yes, we have seen Stands doing their thing and failing, and RTZ quite literally IS the exception to that, it's the exception to EVERY STAND ABILITY, not just King Crimson's, fuck I can even gather guide scans saying as much if forced. And dude, I hope you're unironically saying RTZ doesn't work in erased time and isn't an exception among Stand abilities even though GER's biggest feat is quite literally having RTZ work in time erase and negating it.

Excuse me but the bias card goes to effi and you at this point, you both argue against the series telling us otherwise and her responses with "no, no, no, cuz i think so" is more then enoug

Fuck off with the Efi thing, did she hurt your feelings or some shit? The very reason I'm arguing against is PRECISELY because the series is contradicting your claims and the only way your claims would be right is if you spat in the face of occam's razer. I don't want to hear you bring up Efi as if that somehow effects my stance here.

Also 99% bs and 1% something relevant isnt in your favor either, if its 99% bs, it is snd that counts more then what little % left which on its own if analyzed ends up bs too

No, if that 1% is true, then that 1% is true regardless of if the other 99% is flawed, the 1% doesn't suddenly becoming flawed because someone said things that weren't, if someone said a bunch of bullshit the said "the sky is blue", the last point doesn't suddenly become wrong. You may not like those points, but they exist and happened.

Its not lying or dishonesty, its ignorance to the series telling YOU, that you arent correct

It becomes dishonest when you outright ignore and pretend certain things didn't happen. Oh, ok, so where does it say that then? Go on, I want an explicit scan saying that RTZ is manual and only manual, that Giorno was killed and GER failed because fate made him lose that exchange regardless of what is said about it, that Epitaph can show things that are outright impossible to occur like getting a tag on a infinite speed character despit binge infinitely slower, GER and RTZ are 100% the same speed with no discrepancy and that GER was always in control and cognizant despite of what we visually see.
I want actual explicit statements here, I don't want mental gymnastics.
 
Also with avdol we clearly saw getting shot in the head in part 3 and all, which seemed like he was dead, yet its not the case as we seen later

So even IF your part with GER being "affected" was a thing, when it wasnt, we see later its proven false by the fact GER can do stuff like Diavolo can and RTZ being the reason he wasnt affected later is unfounded too, if it was the case, Giorno and others should also be unaffected then yet it didnt, time erase still was in affect, only logical conclusion is that GER was not affected
 
2,248
273
So uh

What happened?
To all the new stuff coming here, there are the relevant points:
  1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
  2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook saying that its None stats are given due to them being non-measurable for that standards of the Jojoverse, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
  3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.
^This, plus the fact that if GER has resistance to Precogn if not under Giorno's control
 
4,932
904
Giorno controlled GER as even Trish confirmed lol, he just takes action from himself if Giorno can't defend himelf against attacks.

Simple, it didn't preidct GER's taking controll, as suggested from this thread, GER itself should have resistance to pregognition since his own actions aren't shown in Diavolo's Epitaph, not Giorno

Nope, because Diavolo could see Giorno's fate, not also GER's, learn the difference. The User is under Diavolo abilities, but the stand himself isn't, and as I told before, it's because GER acts freerly when Giorno can't fight. So, GER under Giorno's abilities: bound from speed and fate, but when it takes control and is free, then is not.
Ah yes, because Trish would know that even though she's just talking about how GER isn't going rogue like Chariot Requiem did. Not even Giorno knows his Stand is fully sentient, how would Trish know at a glance?

Dude I was in that thread and even mentioned that already, there's a reason that wasn't accepted.

Giorno's fate IS Ger's fate, cut that shit out. Giorno's fate would have been GER saving his ass, the exact same thing applies and you're just grasping at straws now.
The Stand himself is quite literally under his abilities, we can visually see GER effected al the same. GER acts however he damn well pleases, just because he listens to Giorno doesn't mean there's two separate modes or something, GER listening to Giorno is a conscious decision on his part, him listening to Giorno or doing his own thing doesn't suddenly change the fuck out of his attributes, or anything, at all, if hew as effected he was effected, end of story.
 
4,932
904
^This, plus the fact that if GER has resistance to Precogn if not under Giorno's control
Oh, you're unironically running with literal headcanon now.
I can't do this, I really can't fucking debate someone who makes up new shit every other post to try and justify there claims.
 
2,248
273
Ah yes, because Trish would know that even though she's just talking about how GER isn't going rogue like Chariot Requiem did. Not even Giorno knows his Stand is fully sentient, how would Trish know at a glance?
So all the laser, posing and even almost teleporting aren't a thing that Giorno made nope, it was all GER's even if nothing remotely implied that.
Dude I was in that thread and even mentioned that already, there's a reason that wasn't accepted.
Because other reasons, but we can discuss it again don't you think?
Giorno's fate IS Ger's fate, cut that shit out. Giorno's fate would have been GER saving his ass, the exact same thing applies and you're just grasping at straws now.
Because it was Giorno's fate, only that GER's isn't bound from it.
The Stand himself is quite literally under his abilities, we can visually see GER effected al the same.
Indeed, because if the User dies, the Stand does too.
GER acts however he damn well pleases, just because he listens to Giorno doesn't mean there's two separate modes or something, GER listening to Giorno is a conscious decision on his part, him listening to Giorno or doing his own thing doesn't suddenly change the fuck out of his attributes, or anything, at all, if hew as effected he was effected, end of story.
They are tho for the reasons I told before.
Oh, you're unironically running with literal headcanon now.
I can't do this, I really can't fucking debate someone who makes up new shit every other post to try and justify there claims.
More than headcanon I'd call it more understanding implications.
 
Fate manipulation on its own page literally has probably manipulation in accordance with it saying you can make impossible stuff possible, funny how you think damage word holds more weight then the wiki own page who says otherwise, just shows how easily you are convinced by unfounded claims

Insulting me by saying im blind (which is an insult no matter how you put it) along saying to f off or "she hurt your feelings" is not making you any more right either, the only thing i agree on the previous guy who argued you, was you insulting others and such, on that thing he was ironically right

That 1% as i explained but choosed to ignore if analyzed alone will in the end prove to be wrong, also your sky is blue thing is wrong, it can be dark at night or even yellowish orange or such at near sunset or such, on other planets it can be different in color, so its not true to say sky is blue and its correct without a doubt

If you cant debunk or prove something dont at all, as well as going to retort at insults and the such when proven wrong, you thinking your head canons from someone else have any relevance isnt founded, like it or not

You should have not been swayed by false interpretation which is that exactly
 
4,932
904
So all the laser, posing and even almost teleporting aren't a thing that Giorno made nope, it was all GER's even if nothing remotely implied that.

Yes actually, Giorno had his face caved in and was unconscious for that one feat, that absolutely was fucking GER and Giorno had zero say in that. The rest? Sure Giorno may have told him to do something like a normal Stand, and? Ger isnt going to say no fuck you.

Because other reasons, but we can discuss it again don't you think?

At this rate I fear what you'd come up with to try and insinuate something that isnt there.

Because it was Giorno's fate, only that GER's isn't bound from it.
And his fate would have been getting saved by GER, fuck Epitaph doesn't even work that way, it doesn't single out and pick and choose to show a singular person's fate. No it just goes "here's what's going to happen and is fated to occur in a few seconds", there is no "well it's Giorno's fate, not GER's", it's EVERYONE's fate, it's a single thing.
And, if GER was going to save Giorno, it would have just showed that instead, not King Crimson ripping out Giorno's heart while GER spits out blood because he just had his heart crushed too.

Indeed, because if the User dies, the Stand does too.
Yeah no shit, even though I was talking about GER being effected by time erase, not Epitaph.
They are tho for the reasons I told before.

Your reasons are quite literally "i cant accept this happened so im going to make up that GER somehow varies and there's different modes or something when he's listening and not listening to Giorno". Your reasons arent reasons, they're completely made up.

More than headcanon I'd call it more understanding implications.
It'd be a miracle if you'd understand Occam's razer as well.
 
If you would actually bring valid stuff and act differently, people would actually agree with you and not argue for hundreds of comments, yet that seems to be the case almost all the time
 
2,248
273
Yes actually, Giorno had his face caved in and was unconscious for that one feat, that absolutely was fucking GER and Giorno had zero say in that. The rest? Sure Giorno may have told him to do something like a normal Stand, and? Ger isnt going to say no fuck you.
Those movements were too "normal" to say that at that moment it was indipendent, I mean, Dragon's Dream is an example of how an indipendent stand which cooperates with its user works.
Your reasons are quite literally "i cant accept this happened so im going to make up that GER somehow varies and there's different modes or something when he's listening and not listening to Giorno". Your reasons arent reasons, they're completely made up.
I simply mean that if GER acts, fate doesen't act normally anymore, heck, when it took control, Diavolo lost despite he was fated to win.
It'd be a miracle if you'd understand Occam's razer as well.
The hell is that related lol
 
2,248
273
To all the new stuff coming here, there are the relevant points:
  1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
  2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook saying that its None stats are given due to them being non-measurable for that standards of the Jojoverse, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
  3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.
^This, plus the fact that if GER has resistance to Precogn if not under Giorno's control
 
4,932
904
Fate manipulation on its own page literally has probably manipulation in accordance with it saying you can make impossible stuff possible, funny how you think damage word holds more weight then the wiki own page who says otherwise, just shows how easily you are convinced by unfounded claims

Yes, but there's one key issue with that, Diavolo doesn't make anything happen, Epitaph just shows him a future and that future gets locked, It becomes impossible, normally, to avoid that future, but that future isn't a future that inherently is impossible.

Insulting me by saying im blind (which is an insult no matter how you put it) along saying to f off or "she hurt your feelings" is not making you any more right either, the only thing i agree on the previous guy who argued you, was you insulting others and such, on that thing he was ironically right

I mean, if you can't see something that blatant, at that point it's more an observation than a insult, Also do we truly live in a time that saying someone is blind is deemed an actually insult? That's fucked.
Yes, fuck off with the Efi thing, I'm not saying fuck you personally or like "hey you fuck off", I'm saying fuck off with that constant clinging to that like that actually matters, as in drop it, so yes, fuck off with that, drop it, it ain't relevant. And that was an actual question, I have absolutely no idea why every single other sentence you post is about Efi, like why are you so caught up on that?

That 1% as i explained but choosed to ignore if analyzed alone will in the end prove to be wrong, also your sky is blue thing is wrong, it can be dark at night or even yellowish orange or such at near sunset or such, on other planets it can be different in color, so its not true to say sky is blue and its correct without a doubt

You know damn well what I meant, like clearly I'm talking about OUR sky in the middle of the day. And that 1% still checks out.

If you cant debunk or prove something dont at all, as well as going to retort at insults and the such when proven wrong, you thinking your head canons from someone else have any relevance isnt founded, like it or not

I've got out of my way to explain why half the things you said here don't cut it, prove something? Where's those scans I asked of you? Because at the moment you're just saying something without actual backing. As ironic as it is, I'm the only person in this conversation who's taking things as shown and isn't inserting assumptions and the like here, I'm doing anything but headcanon. And I dont give a shit who they're from, I would have brought them up myself regardless.

You should have not been swayed by false interpretation which is that exactly

I can make my own judgement calls thank you.
"false"
"interpretation"
I hope you realize the issue with that.
 
4,932
904
If you would actually bring valid stuff and act differently, people would actually agree with you and not argue for hundreds of comments, yet that seems to be the case almost all the time
I have brought valid stuff, it's precisely why numerous people did agree with me on the previous proposal, but now that I'm saying "hey this thing you're now proposing doesnt actually check out" you're acting like I'm somehow the bad guy here, if the points are valid then that's good, but if it's wrong or ignorant to points that have merit but go against what you want, then sorry, but that's just how it is.
 
@Chariot190

You have become the very thing you swore to destroy. You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the GER lowball to infinite speed, not join them. You were to bring balance to the jojo verse, not leave it in the downplay.
Chariot pulled an Anakin Skywalker here, which resulted in this for those who were before here but gone for a while
 
4,932
904
Chariot pulled an Anakin Skywalker here, which resulted in this for those who were before here but gone for a while
Can you stop acting like I have to either be all for it or completely against it?
If something is right it's right, if something is wrong it's wrong, but given how many points are at play here, obviously not everything is going to be straightforward.
I agree with a majority of points, fuck I argued and brought up a good chunk of them, but that doesn't mean if there's some blatant ignorance on the side I mostly support that I'm not going to call it out.
 
1,423
660
For me I still think "mftl, possibly infinite for RtZ", or "mftl" and no particular speed at all for RtZ is the best choice fra.

But if those become off the table then I would agree with Chariot and Efficient on "mftl, infinite with RtZ" over just "infinite" in general.
 
1) managing to kill an opponent that is faster then you via fate is an impossible thing, you yourself agreed on that, you dropped it afterwards in favor of resistance to fate whom has no proof

2) yeah calling someone blind and all you said is insulting and so on, regardless its uncalled for bro

3) yeah after i called out out in that now you make that up, but whatever

4)Strym and 1-2 more (i think) were still in favor of GER getting physical speed at that, on which you disagree even if put as possibly from things not actually disproving it

5) yet people were still opposing you, you cant say there wasnt and thats cuz sometimes you dont bring anything to convince otherwise, which is why this started a new discussion from Strym, me and others on the line
 
2,248
273
For me I still think "mftl, possibly infinite for RtZ", or "mftl" and no particular speed at all for RtZ is the best choice fra.

But if those become off the table then I would agree with Chariot and Efficient on "mftl, infinite with RtZ" over just "infinite" in general.
I think that the main point is if GER was actually affected from the Erase, we can't know what exactly happened due to how vague the scene was due to GER being poorly explained.

I'd like to say again how possibly ratings are given.

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

This fits GER's situation, he can be like he can be not infinite in speed, that's why I suggested the "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite, Infinite with Return to Zero" rating
 
4,932
904
1) managing to kill an opponent that is faster then you via fate is an impossible thing, you yourself agreed on that, you dropped it afterwards in favor of resistance to fate whom has no proof

2) yeah calling someone blind and all you said is insulting and so on, regardless its uncalled for bro

3) yeah after i called out out in that now you make that up, but whatever

4)Strym and 1-2 more (i think) were still in favor of GER getting physical speed at that, on which you disagree even if put as possibly from things not actually disproving it

5) yet people were still opposing you, you cant say there wasnt and thats cuz sometimes you dont bring anything to convince otherwise, which is why this started a new discussion from Strym, me and others on the line
I've been advocating resistance to fate since like, summer of 2019, I didn't switch.
Also the issue with that lies in that yes, Epitaph does make things happen, but I guess to be more exact, it's more like it makes things impossible to change rather then making the impossible happen. Like Damage said, King Crimson wouldnt crack a planet in half in a vision because a vision like that would never happen.

Honestly I'm actually surprised you took that as an insult, ive seen that been said hundreds of times before, even here, but given you called me bro, assuming that wasnt sarcasm, no hard feelings.

Honestly dont know what 3 is talking about.

Dude, even the BEST CASE SCENARIO is a possibility, not even flat out, the reason I disagree is because there's demonstrable evidence of it being not true, that's it, nothing more, nothing less.

I mean, yeah, no shit people were still opposing me, but it's a miracle the majority did agree with me on such a controversial subject. Dude, you say "dont bring evidence" but I hope you know that literally nothing new has been brought up that hasn't been mentioned since page 1. I've brought up enough evidence, like goddamn I argued extensively for the singular thing that would even save any semblance of a rating, and even supplied numerous scans myself, some of which i even took myself irl with my physicals belongings. All the evidence has already been posted, at this point it's the same singular issue of scans that were posted ages ago, nothing else new to post, but at the same time, I asked you for scans of your claims did I not?
 
1,423
660
Personally I don't think there is sufficient proof to give him possibly infinite in physical speed, I get what your saying, but the wiki generally goes with whatever the most conservative option is if there is doubt.
 
4,932
904
I'm against the possibly, and for one single crucial reason (there's that other reason, but I could at least live with that if this one didnt also exist), the Epitaph scene, under no circumstance would that have happened if GER was infinite, GER failed there in that potential future, he failed, he wasnt fast enough.
Yes, Epitaph makes the future impossible to change, if it's shown that shit is happening no matter what you do, but the fact it was shown in the first place? Epitaph would show something that's literally never in a billion years going to happen, rather, something that outright cant happen.
It can be used to get some whack as fuck situations going, and once shown it's locked in, but Epitaph isnt going to show something that literally cant happen, and a MFTL barely edging out a infinite is one such thing that straight up cant occur.

If that didn't happen, I'd be fine with the 50/50 possibly, but the existence of that makes the 50/50 a 0.
 
2,248
273
but the wiki generally goes with whatever the most conservative option is if there is doubt.
There are even less likely ratings, and rejecting this would mean just a huge double-standards.
I'm against the possibly, and for one single crucial reason, the Epitaph scene, under no circumstance would that have happened if GER was infinite, GER failed there in that potential future, he failed, he wasnt fast enough.
Yes, Epitaph makes the future impossible to change, if it's shown that shit is happening no matter what you do, but the fact it was shown in the first place? Epitaph would show something that's literally never in a billion years going to happen, rather, something that outright cant happen.
It can be used to get some whack as fuck situations going, and once shown it's locked in, but Epitaph isnt going to show something that literally cant happen, and a MFTL barely edging out a infinite is one such thing that straight up cant occur.

If that didn't happen, I'd be fine with the 50/50 possibly, but the existence of that makes the 50/50 a 0.
I already told you other reasons of why it could've happened, but you were just yelling "headcanon!" sadly.
 
4,932
904
already told you other reasons of why it could've happened, but you were just yelling "headcanon!" sadly.
Yes, because they require numerous assumptions, I can make up somethings too that would justify and explain the scene, the issue is that's all it is, Occam's Razer exists, your other reasons aren't actually solid or concrete enough, what we do know for an absolute fact disagrees with you, of course you could try and explain it in such a way it comes off as different, but the very fact you have to actively do so with a multitude of assumptions and things that aren't actually given a basis for is simply, well, no, I can't agree with that.
 
1,423
660
Well I more meant if there are two mostly equally likely ratings they go conservative, not like one off ones that are highly unlikely but more conservative.
 
2,248
273
Yes, because they require numerous assumptions, I can make up somethings too that would justify and explain the scene, the issue is that's all it is, Occam's Razer exists, your other reasons aren't actually solid or concrete enough, what we do know for an absolute fact disagrees with you, of course you could try and explain it in such a way it comes off as different, but the very fact you have to actively do so with a multitude of assumptions and things that aren't actually given a basis for is simply, well, no, I can't agree with that.
You talk like they're completely made from nothing, but the issue was that GER was never that clear, nor has confirmations, so the doubt still exists, and thus, can leave to interpretations with a basis, and I've explained why mines are reasonable.
 
4,932
904
You talk like they're completely made from nothing, but the issue was that GER was never that clear, nor has confirmations, so the doubt still exists, and thus, can leave to interpretations with a basis, and I've explained why mines are reasonable.

I mean, the GER dual mode attribute thing absolutely is, and the GER was just pretending is a pretty clear example of going against occam's razor even with your point of fucking around.

You have brought a few possibilities that could reasonably be true, but the issue still stands in that they still require multiple assumptions opposed to simply what we see and know for a fact. Is there a basis? Well, at least for a few maybe but having a basis doesn't inherently mean it's ok to actually use either.
 
2,248
273
I mean, the GER dual mode attribute thing absolutely is, and the GER was just pretending is a pretty clear example of going against occam's razor even with your point of fucking around.
Is completely unrelated, this method is for irl theory stuff, not vague fictional characters.
You have brought a few possibilities that could reasonably be true, but the issue still stands in that they still require multiple assumptions opposed to simply what we see and know for a fact. Is there a basis? Well, at least for a few but having a basis doesn't inherently mean it's ok to actually use either.
And they fit with being applied with a possibly rating, since they still have a basis as you said.
 
1)The fate manipulation says otherwise, also you technically say his predictions cant be true or cant show something impossible to happen just to get out of the situation

If that ever had to be shown its meant to happen somehow, thats the power of epitaph make a fated event happen regardless how crazy it is, fate is fate

2)Bro wasnt meant as you thought

3)Meant that just now you brought up that you said for daylight when you didnt initially

Late reply, to last comment of chariot to me, been busy a bit
 
4,932
904
Is completely unrelated, this method is for irl theory stuff, not vague fictional characters.
We use Occam's razer all the time dude.
And they fit with being applied with a possibly rating, since they still have a basis as you said.
Having a basis doesnt mean much if to get the result you want you have to make more than just a few assumptions when normally, we would just use what we see and know for a fact. Like, I can do the same to in a way that has basis as to why it absolutely isn't the case, point is, at the end of the day, making a bunch of assumptions is not even half as accurate as just taking the actual hard facts and visual evidence and treating it as we see it.
 
2,248
273
Having a basis doesnt mean much if to get the result you want you have to make more than just a few assumptions when normally, we would just use what we see and know for a fact. Like, I can do the same to in a way that has basis as to why it absolutely isn't the case, point is, at the end of the day, making a bunch of assumptions is not even half as accurate as just taking the actual hard facts and visual evidence and treating it as we see it.
Possibly ratings include these too lol
 
4,932
904
The fate manipulation says otherwise, also you technically say his predictions cant be true or cant show something impossible to happen just to get out of the situation

I hope you know there's degrees of fate manip, not all fate manip works the same way, and also, King Crimson doesn't manipulate fate, Epitaph enforces a fate, but he has absolutely zero control over what's shown or what's possible. Epitaph isn't going to show something that is a straight up "cant happen", it can make things impossible to get around, we learned that in the Metallica arc and it's been established further since, but that's about it.

Bro wasnt meant as you thought

So are you saying that there should be hard feelings or?

Meant that just now you brought up that you said for daylight when you didnt initially

Daylight? Im honestly confused, what are you talking about.

Late reply, to last comment of chariot to me, been busy a bit

Im assuming you're trying to say youre busy and this is your last for a bit?
 
1,423
660
What do the knowledgeable staff members who are present on this thread think at this point?

Putting my stance aside, I know @Eficiente , @Antoniofer both weighed in and both are knowledgeable about the series and the wiki standards. Where do they stand now as the best option? Can somebody ping them to get their take currently, since this is honestly just getting circular.
 
4,932
904
Possibly ratings include these too lol
Not to this degree, you're going more than a bit overboard in your assumptions. And possibly only works if said assumptions are given in verse or are based directly on a multitude of hard evidence in context. A good chunk of your points are "well this could be true", like, yeah it could it be, but so could a trillion other things and at the end of the day, I could say some completely and utterly whack shit that would still be "possible" and have some basis in truth, but it obviously wouldn't be what we'd use when there's a perfectly good straightforward conclusion based on hard facts and visual evidence that doesn't really on making numerous assumptions to reach a certain conclusion.

since this is honestly just getting circular.

It's been that way since page 1. Also Efi's already been made aware.
 
2,248
273
Not to this degree, you're going more than a bit overboard in your assumptions. And possibly only works if said assumptions are given in verse or are based directly on a multitude of hard evidence in context. A good chunk of your points are "well this could be true", like, yeah it could it be, but so could a trillion other things and at the end of the day, I could say some completely and utterly whack shit that would still be "possible" and have some basis in truth, but it obviously wouldn't be what we'd use when there's a perfectly good straightforward conclusion based on hard facts and visual evidence that doesn't really on making numerous assumptions to reach a certain conclusion.
Strawman af, I explained how, not gave random arguments.

Anyway SSJRyu is right, this has no end and is getting tiring.
 
4,932
904
Strawman af, I explained how, not gave random arguments.
That isn't a strawman dude, nothing in that post was me twisting what you said, everything I said there was absolutely correct, I can even go and quote you saying as such for the moments I paraphrased you.
Point being, it doesn't matter if you "Explained why", your explanations are to heavily based on assumptions. Yes, your explanations could in theory work but just because it can make sense and would work if true, doesn't mean it is true.
I said it before and I'll say it again, Occam's Razer does exist, yeah, sure, we don't know a drastic amount about GER so some things aren't 100% explained, but that doesn't mean we can just assume things happen or act a certain way just to suit an argument. How many assumptions is to many? Ask yourself that, when you have to go so far to assume things work a certain way and some things happen because of things that aren't actually implied, when in 99% of other situations we would just take what we see and what we know for a fact and draw a conclusion based on that instead, well, that's to far in my opinion.
 
2,248
273
I mean, possibly ratings work on assumptions which have weight and have some support, and I suggested such, you can't deny them just because they're assumptions despite they have some solid things behind them
 

Antvasima

Maintenance worker
VS Battles
Bureaucrat
Sysop
105,734
22,952
I personally think that SSJRyu1's first post seems to make sense, and that we should preferably remove the excessive speed rating. The same standards have to hold here as everywhere else in the wiki.

Can somebody knowledgeable summarise any further relevant information here please?

Also, I have been told that Chariot190 (or possibly somebody else) has been very excessively hostile towards Ryu in this thread. That has to stop immediately. We have to at least try to be respectful and polite in this community, or its cohesion will start to collapse, and we would be unable to get anything constructive done.
 
2,248
273
To all the new stuff coming here, there are the relevant points:
  1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
  2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook saying that its None stats are given due to them being non-measurable for that standards of the Jojoverse, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
  3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.
This too
 
801
27
Also, I have been told that Chariot190 (or possibly somebody else) has been very excessively hostile towards Ryu in this thread. That has to stop immediately. We have to at least try to be respectful and polite in this community, or its cohesion will start to collapse, and we would be unable to get anything constructive done.
I mean, watching this, i could see a bit of a warm atmosphere, that makes sense, I imagine it's normal to get angry or bored, after answering the same answer 400 times just because people kept asking question/or using argument that have already been answered
 
1,423
660
I still feel that "At least MFTL, likely higher physically, possibly Infinite with RTZ" (due to scaling from BiG and MiH giving outright infinite speed is questionable imo based on the nature of their stands abilities, and highly varied speed, despite their rankings, and the fact "none" being stated as superior to other stands abilities is a secondary statement only) or just "At least MFTL, likely higher" with RtZ being left as a hax with no specified speed due to us not knowing exactly how it activates would be better options.

However if @Eficiente and @Antoniofer, both of which are knowledgeable about JoJo and the wiki standards are OK with "At least MFTL, likely higher physically, Infinite with RTZ" then that would be the next best option I guess, and id live with it even if I think its suspect. At least its better than what's there now.
 
4,932
904
Can someone summarise this please?
Read the first page I guess, everything after that has just been going around in circles or semantics, you honestly probably dont have to read the ENTIRE thread to get an idea.

I have been told that Chariot190 (or possibly somebody else) has been very excessively hostile towards Ryu in this thread

At most I said two things that were actually hostile, one I took back before it was even pointed out and the other I reworded immediately because it came out wrong.
The rest? There's a difference between being overtly blunt with vanilla swearing and actually being excessively hostile.
I'll take responsibility for the two times that could be considered personal and weren't directly referring to the topic itself but the rest? Saying fuck a lot isn't inherently hostile.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Retired
11,509
3,301
Shouldn't this be pretty straightforward? Our standards for timeless voids make infinite speed for GER invalid. Not like infinite speed for GER before was any more legit but I digress

GER resisting Diavolo's time skip is resistance to time manip and causality manip, simple as that.
 
4,932
904
due to scaling from BiG and MiH giving outright infinite speed is questionable imo based on the nature of their stands abilities, and highly varied speed, despite their rankings, and the fact "none" being stated as superior to other stands abilities is a secondary statement only

Again, this is a literal nonargument. Every single character in existence isnt always at peak speed, but if we get a statement saying "Hey this other character>them at their best", then they scale above the peak speed. It being through an ability doesn't matter, especially as with BIG it isnt through an ability, that's a misconception that originated through faulty translations and has stuck ever since.
The "None" are in the manga, that's literally all that matters, actually, ask yourself this, if we have something explicitly canon and originates in the source material but isn't clarified, and the author goes on to clarify what it meant in a wog, then that isn't a "secondary source", it's from the manga, we just werent' told what it meant till later, doesn't change the fact it's in the manga and the meaning of it still adheres to the source material.

And that only matters if we don't use the guide at all, there's no inbetween, either we use it, or we dont, and in this case there's absolutely no reason to do so otherwise, it's explicitly talking about something that exists in canon and comes from the author, it's simply explaining an existing thing. Unless you want to argue we're not going to use it all, then saying "possibly because it comes from a guide" isn't a true argument, if we use then we use it or we don't.
 
4,932
904
Shouldn't this be pretty straightforward? Our standards for timeless voids make infinite speed for GER invalid. Not like infinite speed for GER before was any more legit but I digress

GER resisting Diavolo's time skip is resistance to time manip and causality manip, simple as that.
That's not anyone's argument though? There being a void is a nonfactor here, except for some specifications, but not for speed itself.
 

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Retired
11,509
3,301
GER would have blitzed Diavolo before he had time to do anything if he indeed had infinite speed. Quite literally, the eventual heat death of the universe would have happened before Diavolo got a chance to act against GER from his perspective.

Also, I'm simply responding to what the OP says. I've not read any of the arguments currently being discussed and I'm honestly surprised there would even be an argument to be had in the first place.
 
4,932
904
GER would have blitzed Diavolo before he had time to do anything if he indeed had infinite speed. Quite literally, the eventual heat death of the universe would have happened before Diavolo got a chance to act against GER from his perspective.

Also, I'm simply responding to what the OP says. I've not read any of the arguments currently being discussed and I'm honestly surprised there would even be an argument to be had in the first place.
which is why nobody is arguing for infinite GER itself, well, Strym and Darkness is, but eh.

Though, GER actually does have scenes where he did indeed blitz Diavolo before he did anything, that's actually the very first thing he did, the main thing that makes GER demonstrably not infinite itself is that in Epitaph's vision he failed to defend against King Crimson, that wouldn't have happened if GER was physically infinite, that's the main thing really. Other then the whole time standard thing.
 
2,248
273
Thing is that RtZ is above any Canon Stand in speed according to the JOJO-A-GO!GO! artbook, and was stated that because of this ability, GER is above any Canon Stand as MiH who is infinite in speed, and there's no way that RtZ is below MiH, and because of this, RtZ has infinite speed.
 
1,175
230
GER would have blitzed Diavolo before he had time to do anything if he indeed had infinite speed. Quite literally, the eventual heat death of the universe would have happened before Diavolo got a chance to act against GER from his perspective.
This too, is a bad argument (even though I am not arguing for infinite physical speed) for the simple fact that fictional characters very rarely utilize their abilities to the fullest extent possible for various narrative reasons
 
2,248
273
They'd probably go down to MFTL since they seem to scale to GER itself. I could be wrong.
Not really, DIO stopped RtZ from activating with his RW, meaning that he has still Infinite combat speed due to be able to counter an Infinite Speed ability with a manual one
 

Damage3245

VS Battles
Sysop
Calculation Group
14,415
4,057
Not really, DIO stopped RtZ from activating with his RW, meaning that he has still Infinite combat speed due to be able to counter an Infinite Speed ability with a manual one
If you stop something before it activates, then you don't necessarily scale to it in speed. You'd have to stop it during its activation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top