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Zeref scaling to Etherion and Acnologia Durability

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DemonGodMitchAubin said:
@Rin

I'm talking about Fairy Heart and Space Between Time not being Debunked, Dragon Cry was totally debunked
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Yes but the way you worded it makes it seem that Dragon Cry is accepted. Hence why Nedge is confused.
 
Rin The Dragon Empress said:
Nedge1000 said:
They weren't rejected. The justifications from the Fairy Cry looks not to have been added
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They were, you're getting confused. Even Mitch is telling you Dragon Cry was rejected.
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You are right, my mistake and sorry about it.

DemonGodMitchAubi

Yep pretty sure, Hiro has directly referenced the story in the manga on two separate occasions, regardless it doesn't matter anymore, because we aren't scaling the characters to Dragon Cry, but Etherion

02:56, September 4, 2018 (v • e • d)
 
@Nedge

Dragon Cry was debunked, however, people in this thread are disagreeing with scaling to Etherion, even though scaling to Etherion has been accepted at least 3 times before and nothing in thread hasn't been brought up before, it's just the two admins who were in charge of Fairy Tail have stopped participating because of the constant doubt of Scaling to Etherion and they're tired of revisions, so here we are again, with the same arguments, just new people
 
Said new people clearly have issues with the scaling. It's clear that no side is going to budge either so it's best to let Imade comment again to further his points with scans and what not.
 
So, the scaling could have refer to the Etherion calc which looks to have been 723 teratons. Also, where is this calc link

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

Fairy Heart Zeref should receive at least High 6-B, possibly higher due to Fairy Heart being stated as having so much magic for storage that it could fire Etherions repeatedly when Etherion is calced at 723 Teratons for High 6-B and because he has Space Between Time under his control at this key.

Savage Dragon Fire Natsu Dragneel should be at least High 6-B, likely 6-A due to trading blows with Fairy Heart Zeref and managing to barely beat him.

Dragon Acnologia should be at High 6-B, possibly higher due to the statement that Etherion would be needed to defeat him.

Human Post Space Between Time Absorption | Dragon Post Space Between Time Absorption Acnologiad should receive 6-A since Space Between Time and Drago Acnologia was already High 6-B, possibly higher without Space Between Time.

Seven Flames Dragon Mode Natsu would be 6-A for defeating Human Post Space Between Time Absorption Acnologia in one hit.


That was my suggestion. I can agree with a couple being 6-A, but only for the very top with Acnologia post Space Between Time and Seven Flames Natsu. However, I can agree with Dragon's suggestion and with likely higher for Fairy Heart Zeref as he stated.

22:04, September 4, 2018 (v • e • d)
 
Imade disagreed with the scaling initially as well, and he lost the argument before, so agreed with the scaling and conceded, we're not gonna let him decide everything, he's on the same level as all of us, not to mention he's getting things wrong regardless, point is, an admin such as Nedge, Dragonmaster, or Aidenbrooks should decide this, unless they decide, we're never getting anywhere, because we have completely different views on how to interpret the verse
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
@Nedge
Dragon Cry was debunked, however, people in this thread are disagreeing with scaling to Etherion, even though scaling to Etherion has been accepted at least 3 times before and nothing in thread hasn't been brought up before, it's just the two admins who were in charge of Fairy Tail have stopped participating because of the constant doubt of Scaling to Etherion and they're tired of revisions, so here we are again, with the same arguments, just new people
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You, guys, could contact any staffs for evaluations, to be honest. I have done th at least a few time; it still help if these staffs are supporters or knowledgeable members of the series though.
 
I've contacted Aidenbrooks and Dragonmaster and they said they're tired over this stuff, because it has been discussed so much, unless we have a neutral party like an admin decide which method we should use, then we don't do anything

Maybe we should make a new thread where only Admins get to decide how to handle the scaling, We both make our cases and then we let them decide
 
It is not really admin, it is staff to be specific. It tends to be the staffs' votes that is a deciding factor, to be honest. You guys could resolve the discussions via voting like done in the past, it is more effective.

In https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Community, under "Meet the Admins" you can view all the current admins and their time activities to contact them., if it helps.
 
The votes are currently leaning towards Imade's arguments. As I said it's best to let him get his thoughts out first given he had to do the same for 1997KD and his arguments. Patience is key after all.
 
To be fair, we could always compromise and go with an

At least High 6-C, possibly High 6-B+

But that's if we're willing to compromise, which I am
 
I'd rather keep the current ratings and add better justifications, but I'm open to Compromise
 
I'd prefer to change the ratings but I'd rather not beat a dead horse. Both sides have valid arguments and the manga will likely give us new feats that can resolve this issue further down the line.

As neither side is likely to budge on this matter, I will go with Mitch's solution for a compromise. Going in circles is a waste of all our time.
 
I'd rather not waste my time here since I'll be busy with irl things soon. So I'm willing to compromise, although I disagree with 6-A SFM Natsu. While in that mode he wasn't a challenge to Acnologia, Acnologia has casually toying with him and only lost due to his dragon body getting sealed and Natsu needed his strongest attack to actually beat him. His final attack on Acnologia seems to be similar to Luffy's King Kong Gun.
 
Here's my compromise, of which I am open to changes

Fairy Heart: Unknow. Possibly High 6-B+ (Stated to be the pinnacle of magic. Possibly stronger than Etherion)

Space Between Time: Likely High 6-B+ (Likely far more power than Etherion)

Savage Dragon Fire Natsu: At least High 6-C, possibly High 6-B+ (Vastly Stronger than before. Defeated Fairy Heart Zeref)

FH Zeref: At least High 6-C, possibly High 6-B+ (Far stronger than before. Possibly stronger than Etherion, due to absorbing Fairy Heart, and having access to all the magic of The Space Between Time)

Human Acnologia: At least High 6-C (Far stronger than August and Irene)

Dragon Acnologia: At least High 6-C, possibly High 6-B+ (Stronger than Fairy Heart Zeref)

Igneel: At least High 6-C (Fought and Damaged Acnologia, who was holding back)

Human RoT Acnologia: High 6-B+ (Stronger than Etherion after absorbing the Space Between Time)

Seven Flames Natsu : High 6-B+ (Defeated Human RoT Acnologia)

Dragon RoT Acnologia: At least High 6-B+, possibly 6-A (Stronger than his Dragon Form)

Explanations of course can be changed
 
I don't like compromises as a compromise is based on a middle ground which is entirely dishonest from the basis of the beliefs of either side's actual argument.

By definition a compromise is dishonest and inaccurate.

The only thing in Fairy Tail that is High 6-B is the Etherion Cannon.

No one in Fairy Tail has an Etherion Cannon that would give them a High 6-B rating.

Fairy Heart has enough magic to fire Etherion Cannons, but Fairy Heart is just the energy, it's not the gun to actually give the AP.

Space Between Time literally has no statement with Etherion. Anyone trying to say Space Between Time is somehow above Etherion is literally lying.

I don't agree with anyone being High 6-B anymore, only Etherion being High 6-B and nothing else since no one proves themselves to be as powerful as Etherion or have a way to fire magic equivalent in force to Etherion.
 
So, no compromise, great, just when I thought we'd come to an agreement

I'm still all for compromise if you're willing
 
Voting didn't make wrong thing correct, mavis/makarov didn't want to use it even their is no weapon, pure magic can also be used to affect someone, etherion is pure magic attack, same goes for fh that's why mavis fear to use it again zeref as zeref said, no one ever touch that point why mavis fear it using zeref is she didn't have high 6-B attack, the only reason is for is powerful on its own
 
@1997KD

Just please vote, so we can get this over with for the last time, although, I guess you're saying that you want to keep the current ratings
 
Why are we even discussing this stuff here and not in a new thread?

Magic power in FT grows stronger alongside having bigger magic container. This is the entire point of 2nd origin. We don't disregard verse mechanics if this is how they've shown to work just because not every other verse does the same. And I can actually think of a couple of verses that do work that way.

You're too fixated into taking the "Infinite" statement too literally when it's just an hyperbole. An hyperbole clearly meant to say that FH is the most powerful magical weapon. Also, we know for a fact that FH Zeref is stronger than base Zeref for one-shotting Natsu and him needing a more powerful form to defeat him. If, as you said, FH didn't give any boost, this wouldn't have been the case.

I agree with High 6-B/6-A everyone
 
Literally no one is denying that more magic makes you stronger.

It's the blatant fact that there is no evidence of anyone being High 6-B after Fairy Heart and Space Between Time.

Fairy Heart gives Zeref an infinite supply of magic, okay. Fine. Zeref is now unquantifiably stronger since nothing about this gives him a new quantifiable new AP. He would just have a "likely higher" now added to his Fairy Heart Key.


Space Between Time gives Acnologia a larger supply of magic, okay. Fine. Acnologia is now unquantifiably stronger since nothing about this gives him a new quantifiable new AP. He would just have a "likely higher" now added to his Space Between Time Key.
 
I think that it seems best to keep the profiles as they are (but with better justifications), as Dragonmasterxyz and AidenBrooks originally argued for.

Meaning, I agree with Nedge and Mitch in this case.
 
I agree with IMade on this, he seems to be making the most sense. Even if they are stronger, there is nothing specifying exactly what their new ratings would be.
 
Demon and Nedge haven't actually explained how The Space Between Time is stronger than Etherion. That's never stated, implied or even brought up BY Zeref. Furthermore
0532-016
0532-009 (1)
upon obtain Fairy Heart and the Space Between Time Zeref stated that'd he'd go back in time and kill Acnologia before he was as strong. This Acnologia is High 6-C and even with Fairy Heart and Space Between Time Zeref knew he wouldn't be able to defeat Acnologia. Quiting Zeref and Mavis here.
"I fear him because I cannot die! I can't beat Acnologia even as an. Immortal!"


"But I make you a promise. Long before he becomes as powerful as he is now I'll kill Acnologia"

This heavily implies that Zeref wouldn't be able to kill Acnologia head on, who's High 6-C at this point. He'd have to time Reset, find a weaker version of Acnologia and kill him before he gets too strong. Keep in mind this is Acnologia when he was only High 6-C it's like going back in time to stop the world from getting destroyed or traveling back in time to paradox someone so they'd never exist. That being said we have two direct statements from Zeref that even with both Fairy Heart and Space Between Time that he'd still lose to the High 6-C Acnologia. Two of them that work together very well.

All the Space Between Time does is give the user a boost in Magic along with Time Magic.
0531-014 (1)
, Fairy Heart is the same thing more or less. Fairy Heart doesn't scale to Etherion, it has the ability to launch Etherion if the user so desires but there's multiple things wrong with this. The first being that nobody in the series can be scaled to or above Etherion since it's not in use anymore, was never stated to be unable to defeat someone and given the fact is Fairy Heart scaled to Etherion then it wouldn't have the ability to fire Etherion. If Fairy Heart was High 6-B by itself then it wouldn't have the option to spam Etherion, because it'd be utterly worthless. They both grant the users boosts in power yes, but it's nothing compared to power of Etherion. While you can argue that having more magic equates to being stronger that's easily countered by the fact that Fairy Heart is an infinite amount of Magic. Thus making Zeref High 3-A. As a side not I'd rather not hearing the argument that Fairy Heart not having infinite magic being hyperbole out of this. We all know it's not, it's stated numerous times in the Manga by knowledgeable characters. It's either that you go with Etherion having infinite amounts of magic or simply scrapping the entire argument that Fairy Heart scales to Etherion all together ( It doesn't but for different reasons obviously. )
Scaling such a thing to Etherion would be incorrect given how vague it is and how it's never implied that Fairy Heart is >>> Etherion. It's further backed up by the fact that Lucy and Co were able to seal away Dragon Acnologia via Fairy Sphere,along with the mages on the area. This isn't a showing of AP, it's a showing of hax. Which is how Fairy Heart and The Space Between Time works, they aren't something that can boost the user to Etherion. They're making the user stronger than they were before, supply magic and grants new abilities. To suggest that either one scales is dishonest and ignoring in verse statements, again If Fairy Heart was stronger than Etherion then it wouldn't have the ability to fire Etherion endlessly. Because that's its strongest ability. What everyone seems to be confused about is that they think Imade is suggesting they didn't get stronger. They certainly got stronger but not to the point of surpassing Etherion.


  • Zeref states that even with both that'd he'd only be able to beat the High 6-C Acnologia via time Reset and killing him before he got that strong. Meaning Zeref was scared by High 6-C Acnologia in canon.


  • Fairy Heart doesn't scale to the DC or AP of Etherion. It's never been stated or suggested, and if it was then there would be absolutely no need for it to have the ability to fire Etherion endlessly since Fairy Heart would already be stronger than Etherion by itself going by this logic.


  • The Space Between Time is a non-argumemt. It's never even stated to be a massive magical reserve, it's vague and all it does is supply Time Magic. Acnologia himself couldn't even scale to the full thing, he had issues even controlling it with him getting his soul and body separated as a return.


  • High 6-C, likely far higher is the best solution is the best these characters should get. Given how it's much more consistent than High 6-B, makes sense for scaling and we have direct characters they scale above. Now that Imade and several users explained what Fairy Heart and the Space Between Time does I think it's the better option. The conclusion is that while both give the user a boost in AP it doesn't bring them up to Etherion level which is never stated or implied. If Fairy Heart was stronger than Etherion then it would make zero sense for it to be able to spam Etherion, and the Space Between Time is literally never brought up in the same sentence as Etherion. It's a magic supply but we don't know how much Magic is in said supply and we're never given exact statements about it even being comparable to Etherion. It's clearly much below that. It seems like these characters have been upgraded due to misinformation and confusion on how they work. Which is easy to understand, given how vague the Manga is on how Etherion would interact with others. But the scaling is clearly wrong and should be removed for the various reasons that Imade and myself have brought up.
 
Was it ever stated that Fairy Heart could power Etherion, or similar comparisons?
 
Antvasima said:
Was it ever stated that Fairy Heart could power Etherion, or similar comparisons?
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Fairy Heart is a limitless pool of magic. It could power up an Etherion Cannon and fire it an infinite amount of time.

Having Fairy Heart itself does not make you have AP on par with Etherion though because the Etherion Cannon is what converts the magic to cause that AP.

Even worse for Space Between Time, Space Between Time is literally never once stated to hold enough magic to power an Etherion Cannon. The thing unique about Space Between Time is that it's Time Magic, thus very potent magic.

Edit: Rin's summary is very well done and explains the points quite clearly. I've been saying the same points as well and I agree with her thorough explanation of it.
 
Well, if it was stated outright that Fairy Heart can power Etherion level discharges, it seems uncharitable to assume that skilled magic users in possession of it would be unable to perform similar feats.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, if it was stated outright that Fairy Heart can power Etherion level discharges, it seems uncharitable to assume that skilled magic users in possession of it would be unable to perform similar feats.
Click to expand...
Really? I would actually say that it's uncharitable to assume that they ca, given the lack of feats that would suggest that they can produce firepower to a special magic cannon designed specifically to fire nuke-like blasts.
 
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