Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

[Pepsimanslover_69]

That's false. For a structure to be qualifyingly 5-D, it needs to be uncountably infinitely larger than 4-D constructs. A comparison of a ray of light to an endless expanse is, at best, countably infinitely bigger.

As far as I can tell, you were already told this, so idk why you're bringing it up again.

I think what's he's trying to say is that because we default the space between Low 2-C structures as insignificant 5D, and the Demon world is what holds and separates these structures within it, it would mean that it contains an insignificant 5D axis.

I might be wrong tho

 

[Agnaa]

I think what's he's trying to say is that because we default the space between Low 2-C structures as insignificant 5D, and the Demon world is what holds and separates these structures within it, it would mean that it contains an insignificant 5D axis.

I might be wrong tho

And that'd be silly, because the space between timelines within a 2-A structure would be infinite (as any non-infinitesimal separation multiplied by infinity would become infinite). That sort of argument just fundamentally doesn't line up with our tiering system as-is.

A multiverse containing timelines and being infinite does not make that multiverse Low 1-C.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

And that'd be silly, because the space between timelines within a 2-A structure would be infinite (as any non-infinitesimal separation multiplied by infinity would become infinite). That sort of argument just fundamentally doesn't line up with our tiering system as-is.

A multiverse containing timelines and being infinite does not make that multiverse Low 1-C.

There is more to it actually. If that said space is 5D, even if insignificant, then the overarching timeline that holds it would end up making uncountably infinite snapshots of it which would be significant 5D at the very least nonetheless according to your very wiki standards right now.

But this is not my thing to do. Its a matter i have given to another user who was working with me way back then so wait for his reply then give your assessment over it.

 

[Agnaa]

There is more to it actually. If that said space is 5D, even if insignificant, then the overarching timeline that holds it would end up making uncountably infinite snapshots of it which would be 5D nonetheless according to your very wiki standards.

But this is a matter i have given to another user who was working with me so wait for his reply then give your assessment over it.

No, that is simply not how we treat temporal dimensions.

Otherwise literally any invocation of dimensions would automatically qualify, because literally every verse features at least one temporal dimension.

(The underlying reason being, if the 5-D space isn't superior to 3-D space in any way, then adding a temporal dimension would be equivalent to adding a temporal dimension to 3-D space, and would be indexed in the same way)

Save your time and don't even bother.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

And that'd be silly, because the space between timelines within a 2-A structure would be infinite (as any non-infinitesimal separation multiplied by infinity would become infinite). That sort of argument just fundamentally doesn't line up with our tiering system as-is.

A multiverse containing timelines and being infinite does not make that multiverse Low 1-C.

It is what's currently accepted.

"Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size."
Tiering System FAQ "is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?"

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Honestly we need to better understand how tiers work on this site before jumping on threads, especially higher tiers such as these, also a very good explanation page should be done with actual examples because as of right now people cast votes and opinions based on their own interpretations of the system rather than the explanations of the knowledgeable members who made the system. Hopefully Ultima fixes that with his new changes cuz God knows some people like to make things way harder than they need to be.

Now, bear in mind all I will say comes from reading several threads and how they came to be accepted to make this post (there are more but got lazy linking them), including the words of several staff members (specially DT, because he is the expert on this).

Let's begin.

---

The Demon World

How does a multiverse work? Well it's a bunch of 4-D constructs (your standard Low 2-C universes a.k.a. timelines) displaced across a 5-D axis. The difference between Low 2-C/2-B/2-A and Low 1-C is that this 5-D plane is on insignificant size in tier 2 while it is of significant size in tier 1.

In our case we know the Demon World has several realms within it, some of them are infinite 4D constructs and despite that they don't intersect with each other despite that. Why? It's because they are in a 5th dimensional plane that prevents them from interacting with each other. Sonic explained it all here (in fact he did a good job with it all).

DT explained it here. The main idea is that no matter if these 4D spaces are infinite or not, what matters is the size of the 5th dimensional axis. After all that's the whole reason why GoW got 5D.

To make it short the Demon World is the higher dimensional (5D) axis in which 4D constructs exist and extend infinitely without interacting with each other. That on it's own can be 2C, 2B or 2A depending on the number of universes because we don't know the size of the Demon World... do we? (Yes, we do)

Back to what DT said: "Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space."

But what exactly constitutes a "significantly large space"? According to this thread, to be of significant size is to be infinite in size, other than that it's only needed to be of "significant magnitude" whatever that can be or "very large.

In this case the demon world is actually infinite in size (part of the scans in the OP and in Sonic's latest post) which can be considered of "significant size" hence being acceptable as a Low 1-C space. 5D of significant size up to this point.

It should be noted that, in the previous downgrade thread the demon world lost it's tier 1 status not because it wasn't accepted as infinite but because the standards had changed and being infinitely bigger alone wasn't enough proof.

The Overarching Timeline

So... In DMC we have quite the cosmology. Standard universes, the higher plane that is the demon world, a dimensional wall, a gap between realms, a super space that holds all of them and the multiverse.

In this instance I like to refer to that super space as the Overarching Timeline. Basically this space is to the demon world what the demon world is to the universe inside it. A higher dimensional axis in which the demon world extends infinitely without interacting with certain places.

Before that let's state the contents of this spatial plane.

• The Demon World: a 5th dimensional plane
• The Human World: a standard Low 2-C universe
• A dimensional wall that prevents demons from crossing from the first to the second world.

Just like how a standard tier 2 construct is displaced across a 5th dimensional space the demon world needs to be displaced across a higher dimensional axis. In this case it would be a 6th dimensional space. Now, following the same process as before, for this to qualify it would need to be of significant size/magnitude.

Sadly in this case we don't have any direct statement about it's size unlike the demon world but we can infer it to be of significant size. Why some may ask?

The demon world, despite being extending infinitely in the 6th dimensional plane has some places that are unreachable, one of these is the gap between worlds. Demons, despite being able to traverse the demon world to the human world are unable to reach this gap between realms indicating there is a significant size to cross in the space that holds the demon world and the human world.

At the very least the Overarching Timeline is large enough to hold spaces that go infinitely inside it while also providing spaces inaccesibles to the others which, according to DT in the links above would be enough.

The Multiverse

Now, the multiverse is basically a collection of those super timelines all displaced across a higher dimensional plane. In this case we know the timelines never interact with each other (bar the use of a very specific item in verse) so while it's impossible for them to interact normally and even present changes in their structures compared to the mainline we don't know if the space in which they are displaced is of significant size.

If it were to be assumed to be so then the space would be a 7th dimensional axis (of significant magnitude) that holds an unknown amount of 6 dimensional timelines.

Beyond space and time

According to our standards "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context and usually requires Qualitative Superiority to land us a higher tier, generally +1D. I'm not too keen on arguing this part down considering the latest tier system thread and how both transcending space & time and QS will automatically land you 1-A.

Considering there is a thread about it going on exactly right now I rather wait and see what the new standards will be and how this can be argued.

 

[Agnaa]

It is what's currently accepted.

"Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size."
Tiering System FAQ "is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?"

No. You're extrapolating in a way which those pages don't explicitly say, in a way which would, if taken seriously, make 2-A and Low 1-C the exact same tiers.

It is obviously not currently accepted.

The Demon World

How does a multiverse work? Well it's a bunch of 4-D constructs (your standard Low 2-C universes a.k.a. timelines) displaced across a 5-D axis. The difference between Low 2-C/2-B/2-A and Low 1-C is that this 5-D plane is on insignificant size in tier 2 while it is of significant size in tier 1.

In our case we know the Demon World has several realms within it, some of them are infinite 4D constructs and despite that they don't intersect with each other despite that. Why? It's because they are in a 5th dimensional plane that prevents them from interacting with each other. Sonic explained it all here (in fact he did a good job with it all).

DT explained it here. The main idea is that no matter if these 4D spaces are infinite or not, what matters is the size of the 5th dimensional axis. After all that's the whole reason why GoW got 5D.

To make it short the Demon World is the higher dimensional (5D) axis in which 4D constructs exist and extend infinitely without interacting with each other. That on it's own can be 2C, 2B or 2A depending on the number of universes because we don't know the size of the Demon World... do we? (Yes, we do)

Back to what DT said: "Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space."

But what exactly constitutes a "significantly large space"? According to this thread, to be of significant size is to be infinite in size, other than that it's only needed to be of "significant magnitude" whatever that can be or "very large.

In this case the demon world is actually infinite in size (part of the scans in the OP and in Sonic's latest post) which can be considered of "significant size" hence being acceptable as a Low 1-C space. 5D of significant size up to this point.

It should be noted that, in the previous downgrade thread the demon world lost it's tier 1 status not because it wasn't accepted as infinite but because the standards had changed and being infinitely bigger alone wasn't enough proof.

As said above, this is obviously wrong, as this reasoning would make every 2-A series Low 1-C.

The Overarching Timeline

So... In DMC we have quite the cosmology. Standard universes, the higher plane that is the demon world, a dimensional wall, a gap between realms, a super space that holds all of them and the multiverse.

In this instance I like to refer to that super space as the Overarching Timeline. Basically this space is to the demon world what the demon world is to the universe inside it. A higher dimensional axis in which the demon world extends infinitely without interacting with certain places.

Before that let's state the contents of this spatial plane.

• The Demon World: a 5th dimensional plane
• The Human World: a standard Low 2-C universe
• A dimensional wall that prevents demons from crossing from the first to the second world.

Just like how a standard tier 2 construct is displaced across a 5th dimensional space the demon world needs to be displaced across a higher dimensional axis. In this case it would be a 6th dimensional space. Now, following the same process as before, for this to qualify it would need to be of significant size/magnitude.

Sadly in this case we don't have any direct statement about it's size unlike the demon world but we can infer it to be of significant size. Why some may ask?

The demon world, despite being extending infinitely in the 6th dimensional plane has some places that are unreachable, one of these is the gap between worlds. Demons, despite being able to traverse the demon world to the human world are unable to reach this gap between realms indicating there is a significant size to cross in the space that holds the demon world and the human world.

At the very least the Overarching Timeline is large enough to hold spaces that go infinitely inside it while also providing spaces inaccesibles to the others which, according to DT in the links above would be enough.

This does not provide anything of substance that would lead to a dimensional jump.

The Multiverse

Now, the multiverse is basically a collection of those super timelines all displaced across a higher dimensional plane. In this case we know the timelines never interact with each other (bar the use of a very specific item in verse) so while it's impossible for them to interact normally and even present changes in their structures compared to the mainline we don't know if the space in which they are displaced is of significant size.

If it were to be assumed to be so then the space would be a 7th dimensional axis (of significant magnitude) that holds an unknown amount of 6 dimensional timelines.

That's not how we treat collections of spaces.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

No. You're extrapolating in a way which those pages don't explicitly say, in a way which would, if taken seriously, make 2-A and Low 1-C the exact same tiers.

No. You are misunderstanding the page, which isn't hard to do hence why a lot of people always ask questions.

DT made it clear in the links I posted. A multiverse is composed of 4D constructs displaced across a 5D space. This doesn't qualify for tier 1 because it isn't assumed the 5D space is of significant size (something the page states).

For it to qualify it needs to be stated to be of significant size.

It is obviously not currently accepted.

But it is. It's literally in the page and the thread in which the standards were made.

As said above, this is obviously wrong, as this reasoning would make every 2-A series Low 1-C.

Like I said above, DT explained it in clear detail in several threads. The problem here comes from YOU not understanding what he said so I will take his comment over yours.

This does not provide anything of substance that would lead to a dimensional jump.

According to DT, it does.

That's not how we treat collections of spaces.

Well, once again it's your word against DT's.

 

[Agnaa]

No. You are misunderstanding the page, which isn't hard to do hence why a lot of people always ask questions.

DT made it clear in the links I posted. A multiverse is composed of 4D constructs displaced across a 5D space. This doesn't qualify for tier 1 because it isn't assumed the 5D space is of significant size (something the page states).

For it to qualify it needs to be stated to be of significant size.

You're not understanding my invocations of 2-A.

Your argument goes:

1. There are timelines.
2. The separation between them is 5-D.
3. There is an infinite amount of this separation across the multiverse.
4. Therefore, this multiverse is significantly 5-D, qualifying for Low 1-C.

But that argument can be applied to literally every 2-A construct in fiction.

But it is. It's literally in the page and the thread in which the standards were made.

It's obviously not, as your interpretation of that would merge 2-A and Low 1-C.

According to DT, it does.

DT hasn't commented on this case, as far as I'm aware.

Well, once again it's your word against DT's.

I don't see the relevance of that post.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Bro finally awoken from his deep slumber.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You're not understanding my invocations of 2-A.

Your argument goes:

1. There are timelines.
2. The separation between them is 5-D.
3. There is an infinite amount of this separation across the multiverse.
4. Therefore, this multiverse is significantly 5-D, qualifying for Low 1-C.

But that argument can be applied to literally every 2-A construct in fiction.

Yes, that's how it is and as stated by DT that's how it is applied.

Every single 2C to 2A construct is displaced across a 5 dimensional space, it's literally what DontTalkDT says in those threads, what matters is the size of said 5 dimensional space and because most if not all the time the size is not stated then it's not assumed to be of significant size ergo not tier 1.

It's obviously not, as your interpretation of that would merge 2-A and Low 1-C.

No, it wouldn't. Because, as DT made painfully clear to the point even me could understand, 2A is assumed to be displaced across a non significantly sized 5D space hence it wouldn't warrant a Low 1-C tier.

DT hasn't commented on this case, as far as I'm aware.

I never said he did. From the threads I presented in which he commented and gave the necessary explanation is where I got this conclusion.

I don't see the relevance of that post.

Maybe because DT's comment explicitly contradicts what you are saying?

 

[Agnaa]

No, it wouldn't. Because, as DT made painfully clear to the point even me could understand, 2A is assumed to be displaced across a non significantly sized 5D space hence it wouldn't warrant a Low 1-C tier.

It is fundamentally impossible to displace infinitely many objects across a dimension without displacing it across an infinite amount of that dimension.

If the 2-A displacement is considered insignificant, then an infinite displacement cannot be significant, as that is what 2-A entails.

I never said he did. From the threads I presented in which he commented and gave the necessary explanation is where I got this conclusion.

Then I simply disagree that he would read the evidence as you're asserting.

Maybe because DT's comment explicitly contradicts what you are saying?

"This construct, of 4-D stuff spread throughout a 5-D space, is just tier 2" does not contradict "We do not treat spaces displaced across a dimension as a dimensional jump". They're saying the exact same thing, actually.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It is fundamentally impossible to displace infinitely many objects across a dimension without displacing it across an infinite amount of that dimension.

Take it to DT, he is the math guy who made the standards, not me.

If the 2-A displacement is considered insignificant, then an insignificant displacement cannot be significant, as that is what 2-A entails.

He sorta explains that here:

"Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space.
As long as you have countably infinite 4D volumes, they will always have 0 5D volume together. That makes it, by our understanding of size, reasonable to assume that they can all fit into an arbitrarily small 5D volume."

And here:

Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space.
As long as you have countably infinite 4D volumes, they will always have 0 5D volume together. That makes it, by our understanding of size, reasonable to assume that they can all fit into an arbitrarily small 5D volume.

basically 4D can be as infinite as you want without getting into uncountable stuff and still be of insignificant size in a 5D plane, and that's why you need a statement about the 5D space to be of significant size ("very large" or "infinite")

Then I simply disagree that he would read the evidence as you're asserting.

I would call him again but he never shows up. Best thing I got is past statements he made regarding this and they fall in line with my arguments.

"This construct, of 4-D stuff spread throughout a 5-D space, is just tier 2" does not contradict "We do not treat spaces displaced across a dimension as a dimensional jump". They're saying the exact same thing, actually.

You: "That's not how we treat collections of spaces.

DT: "a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2."

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Anyways, I'm going to sleep.

 

[Agnaa]

He sorta explains that here:

"Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space.
As long as you have countably infinite 4D volumes, they will always have 0 5D volume together. That makes it, by our understanding of size, reasonable to assume that they can all fit into an arbitrarily small 5D volume."

And here:

Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space.
As long as you have countably infinite 4D volumes, they will always have 0 5D volume together. That makes it, by our understanding of size, reasonable to assume that they can all fit into an arbitrarily small 5D volume.

basically 4D can be as infinite as you want without getting into uncountable stuff and still be of insignificant size in a 5D plane, and that's why you need a statement about the 5D space to be of significant size ("very large" or "infinite")

Oh okay I get it now. idk exactly why it works, but you can squeeze countably infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1 with the sequence of "1 divided by each of the positive integers", and a trivial alteration of that lets you do that with arbitrarily small intervals.

My bad.

Looking at prior evidence with that in mind, my main concern would be that ray of light to endless darkness implies that these timelines are only countably infinitely smaller than the endless darkness, implying that from a 5-D scale, they'd only have a size of 0. If you have other things establishing the size of those gaps, that could still work for an upgrade.

Similarly, there being a gap between worlds is insufficient, as that happens with typical multiverses all the time; it's still insignificant in the grand scheme of that dimension even if it's relevant for some beings.

And the stuff under the section labelled "The Multiverse" is conjecture that doesn't establish anything qualifying.

You: "That's not how we treat collections of spaces.

DT: "a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2."

Yeah, you were using that to get a dimensional jump, I was saying we don't treat it that way, and your quote from DT was in-line with that.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Looking at prior evidence with that in mind, my main concern would be that ray of light to endless darkness implies that these timelines are only countably infinitely smaller than the endless darkness, implying that from a 5-D scale, they'd only have a size of 0. If you have other things establishing the size of those gaps, that could still work for an upgrade.

I don't think the ray of light stuff being a size difference is even up for consideration here and it was also extensively discussed and rejected before to be an infinite size difference in any way.

Ultima says something about it too and the fact it's a metaphorical thing

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I don't think the ray of light stuff being a size difference is even up for consideration here and it was also extensively discussed and rejected before to be an infinite size difference in any way.

Ultima says something about it too and the fact it's a metaphorical thing

The way we interpret it is Infinite/Endless Darkness would be just infinite from a spatial sense and Demon World has fifth spatial axis soo take that however you want.

 

[Agnaa]

The way we interpret it is Infinite/Endless Darkness would be just infinite from a spatial sense and Demon World has fifth spatial axis soo take that however you want.

I think that's a bad interpretation. It compares that endless darkness to a timeline, and says the timeline has finite size, so it couldn't be referring to a fifth spatial axis.

Fun Fact: An object/space can be infinite in some directions but not in others.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I think that's a bad interpretation. It compares that endless darkness to a timeline, and says the timeline has finite size, so it couldn't be referring to a fifth spatial axis.

Fun Fact: An object/space can be infinite in some directions but not in others.

But this is talking about Demon World in totality, not some inner random dimensions. Human World being a Ray of Light would achieve nothing as it would be insignificant nonetheless. What matters is the size of Demon World as the manga panel explains it, to be Endless/Infinite in size.

 

[Agnaa]

But this is talking about Demon World in totality, not some inner random dimensions. Human World being a Ray of Light would achieve nothing as it would be insignificant nonetheless. What matters is the size of Demon World as the manga panel explains it, to be Endless/Infinite in size.

I don't think we can just ignore that other information.

The ray of light comparison has it not being insignificant enough to result in a tier-jump.

Other similar claims with less context don't override that.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I don't think we can just ignore that other information.

The ray of light comparison has it not being insignificant enough to result in a tier-jump.

Other similar claims with less context don't override that.

That's what you think but again, it doesn't matter how Human World is being compared.

The size of Human World has 0% meaning here as insignificant will be insignificant regardless how you see it.

Also the comparison was done from its nature as well, not through the size alone. Its just another thing the manga added.

The Demon World is our main focus and it is spatially treated to be infinite and contains infinite sized 4D structures within its scope soo logically we assume that the 5D spatial axis of Demon World is infinite.

 

[Agnaa]

That's what you think but again, it doesn't matter how Human World is being compared.

The size of Human World has 0% meaning here as insignificant will be insignificant regardless how you see it.

Also the comparison was done from its nature as well, not through the size alone. Its just another thing the manga added.

The Demon World is our main focus and it is spatially treated to be infinite and contains infinite sized 4D structures within its scope soo logically we assume that the 5D spatial axis of Demon World is infinite.

It does; if the Human World is countably infinitely smaller than the Demon World, that means that they're of a similar size difference, which is not enough to jump tiers.

If it's infinite and contains infinite-sized 4D structures, and isn't uncountably infinitely bigger than those infinite-sized 4D structures, then it's just a larger infinitely-sized 4-D structure, with a largely irrelevant 5-D extension.

 

[Robo432343]

What if the demon world is stated to be a higher realm and the human world was stated to be a lower realm
Coz there is a statement like that

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Just gonna question why some of the staff that clearly disagree are not being put under the "disagree section", and it is even worse that for the staff that agreed, only put in the agree section with a small text, instead of being put in both.

 

[Agnaa]

What if the demon world is stated to be a higher realm and the human world was stated to be a lower realm
Coz there is a statement like that

That would likely be evidence for it being higher-tiered. There's some cases where it could not be, and it'd have to be weighed against the contrary statement of the ray of light in endless darkness, but if that is said consistently in a qualifying way, then ofc it'd lead to a higher tier.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

What if the demon world is stated to be a higher realm and the human world was stated to be a lower realm
Coz there is a statement like that

Oh yeah! That's also there.

Thanks for pointing that out Robo. I nearly forgot about it smh.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Just gonna question why some of the staff that clearly disagree are not being put under the "disagree section", and it is even worse that for the staff that agreed, only put in the agree section with a small text, instead of being put in both.

Was busy. But who disagreed soo far?

 

[Robo432343]

Oh yeah! That's also there.

Thanks for pointing that out Robo. I nearly forgot about it smh.

Can you send the scan coz I lost it
both "Demon World" and "Human World" were called "Higher realm" and "Lower realm" respectively.

i remember this scan used to work but now it doesn't anymore

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Can you send the scan coz I lost it

Yeah found it. Here it is.

That would likely be evidence for it being higher-tiered. There's some cases where it could not be, and it'd have to be weighed against the contrary statement of the ray of light in endless darkness, but if that is said consistently in a qualifying way, then ofc it'd lead to a higher tier.

Take a look on the above link.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah found it. Here it is.

Take a look on the above link.

"Lower and upper realms" is far from actually implying a dimensional difference by itself. Then there's the fact that his invasion was considered a feat, instead of something that literally anyone in the demon realm could do with zero effort, which implies that the human realm isn't actually uncountably infinitely inferior.

In short, this is evidence against an upgrade.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

"Lower and upper realms" is far from actually implying a dimensional difference by itself.

That still implies the qualitative difference between both worlds regardless.

Combine that with the fact that his invasion of the "lower realm" was considered a feat, instead of something that literally anyone on the upper realm could do with zero effort, implies that the lower realm isn't actually uncountably infinitely inferior. In short, this is evidence against an upgrade.

You are taking it too seriously now.

His first feat was to become the ruler of Underworld then his next feat would be invading Human World. Its just talking about his accomplishments, nothing more.

If i go by your logic, then the dude is barely above Human level. Coz that's what "feat" means to fight against mere insects like humans here according to what you are implying atm.

 

[Agnaa]

That still implies the qualitative difference between both worlds regardless.

No it doesn't. Or at least, it doesn't any more than "stronger" would; it's slightly indicative, and might be paired with it, but is still far, far from being useful.

You are taking it too seriously now.

His first feat was to become the ruler of Underworld then his next feat would be invading Human World. Its just talking about his accomplishments, nothing more.

Why would it be an accomplishment if it's something literally anyone from his realm could do with zero effort? Why would it be something he needs to accomplish, rather than something already done by the intrinsic hierarchy of their worlds?

If i go by your logic, then the dude is barely above Human level. Coz that's what "feat" means here to fight against mere insects like humans here according to what you are implying atm.

No lol, conquering worlds can be difficult even if its living inhabitants are weak, simply due to them being expansive.

Also, contextually, it seems like the demon world is being referred to as the "lower realm". Given the first paragraph's mention of "deep in the darkest pit of the netherworld", and given how "lower" was listed first (typically, in lists like that, the first item is the one which is already covered).

 

[chosen]

Why would it be an accomplishment if it's something literally anyone from his realm could do with zero effort? Why would it be something he needs to accomplish, rather than something already done by the intrinsic hierarchy of their worlds?

Uh noy exactly, what sonic and tony proposes wouldn't 100 percent imply that cuz only a few demons from that period surpasses finite stats

Most Demons are 3d, they exist within a 5d realm similar way how 3d beings exist within a hypertimeline

I agree scan to vague for a 5d upgrade but i don't think it goes against the overall upgrade unless You didn't meant that

 

[Agnaa]

Uh noy exactly, what sonic and tony proposes wouldn't 100 percent imply that cuz only a few demons from that period surpasses finite stats

Most Demons are 3d, they exist within a 5d realm similar way how 3d beings exist within a hypertimeline

I agree scan to vague for a 5d upgrade but i don't think it goes against the overall upgrade unless You didn't meant that

Y'know what, that's fair. It only contradicts arguments of the "this realm is intrinsically superior" variety, not arguments about it being vast (i.e. infinitely large in 5 dimensions, or having extra temporal dimensions).

My bad for not thinking that through.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

No it doesn't. Or at least, it doesn't any more than "stronger" would; it's slightly indicative, and might be paired with it, but is still far, far from being useful.

What lower and upper realm indicates to you if they are meant to be comparable exactly?

Why would it be an accomplishment if it's something literally anyone from his realm could do with zero effort? Why would it be something he needs to accomplish, rather than something already done by the intrinsic hierarchy of their worlds?

Then what are you even trying to imply? That the dude who casually created an infinitely expending universe and was about to destroy the Underworld as a side effect of his dying or the dude who is comparable with him could passively move the entire structure of Underworld would have problem with something as small as Human World? Which is treated as a source of power for Demons instead? Think for a moment.

No lol, conquering worlds can be difficult even if its living inhabitants are weak, simply due to them being expansive.

Also, contextually, it seems like the demon world is being referred to as the "lower realm". Given the first paragraph's mention of "deep in the darkest pit of the netherworld", and given how "lower" was listed first (typically, in lists like that, the first item is the one which is already covered).

Yeah this is exactly where you lost me.

How can you even think this is referring to Demon World of all things?

Read the text again Agnaa. Both lower and upper realms are said there. If it said "respectively" then you could have an argument except it isn't. It is talking about both worlds collectively which is further supported by the DMC3 manga panel of them being compared.

You are basically telling me the scan here and the scan from the manga is contradicting eachother for no valid reason whatsoever.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The "upper realm" and "lower realm" stuff is just extremely and unbelievably vague to use for any tier. The most you can interpret from it is just the physical position or displacement. It's like Athena's higher plane stuff but with even way less context than that.

 

[Agnaa]

What lower and upper realm indicates to you if they are meant to be comparable exactly?

It could mean:

• That there is a difference in power between them, but that the difference is small, rather than uncountably infinite.
• It could be thematic/evocative, rather than representing anything literal within the cosmology.
• It could represent something in the cosmology unrelated to power, such as status among those who came up with the terminology, order of creation, etc.

Then what are you even trying to imply? That the dude who casually created an infinitely expending universe and was about to destroy the Underworld as a side effect of his dying or the dude who is comparable with him could passively move the entire structure of Underworld would have problem with something as small as Human World? Which is treated as a source of power for Demons instead? Think for a moment.

For one thing, if those are his other feats, then this is an anti-feat for him; it indicates that he's struggling with something which other showings supposedly have him doing easily. A lot of series have stuff like that.

But more importantly, even if it's easy for him, the issue is that your argument should make it easy for everyone. If the world is intrinsically superior, then every random mook of a demon should be able to effortlessly nuke the human world. Which is, in fact, contradicted by their surprisingly-strong leader doing so as his first display of strength.

Yeah this is exactly where you lost me.

How can you even think this is referring to Demon World of all things?

Read the text again Agnaa. Both lower and upper realms are said there. If it said "respectively" then you could have an argument except it isn't. It is talking about both worlds collectively which is further supported by the DMC3 manga panel of them being compared.

You are basically telling me the scan here and the scan from the manga is contradicting eachother for no valid reason.

It is, in fact, not very surprising for two pieces of information from completely different sources having a slight contradiction like this.

But also, it isn't actually a contradiction. "There was a primordial darkness, this was split in two, the darkness became the realm of demons, and the light became the domain of mortals. These two existed together." does not actually establish one of them as "higher" or "lower"; it establishes them as two separate existences on the same level of reality.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

It could mean:

• That there is a difference in power between them, but that the difference is small, rather than uncountably infinite.
• It could be thematic/evocative, rather than representing anything literal within the cosmology.
• It could represent something in the cosmology unrelated to power, such as status among those who came up with the terminology, order of creation, etc.

For one thing, if those are his other feats, then this is an anti-feat for him; it indicates that he's struggling with something which other showings supposedly have him doing easily. A lot of series have stuff like that.

But more importantly, even if it's easy for him, the issue is that your argument should make it easy for everyone. If the world is intrinsically superior, then every random mook of a demon should be able to effortlessly nuke the human world. Which is, in fact, contradicted by their surprisingly-strong leader doing so as his first display of strength.

It is, in fact, not very surprising for two pieces of information from completely different sources having a slight contradiction like this.

But also, it isn't actually a contradiction. "There was a primordial darkness, this was split in two, the darkness became the realm of demons, and the light became the domain of mortals. These two existed together." does not actually establish one of them as "higher" or "lower"; it establishes them as two separate existences on the same level of reality.

Anyway Agnaa, where should i place you in the agree-disagree-neutral section soo far?

I gotta fill that too yk.

 

[Agnaa]

Disagree with everything I've seen so far. So that's hypertimeline stuff, demon world being a tier jump, timeline being a tier jump, and multiverse being a tier jump.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Disagree with everything I've seen so far. So that's hypertimeline stuff, demon world being a tier jump, timeline being a tier jump, and multiverse being a tier jump.

Alright then.