Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

[Deagonx]

Here infinitely sized means infinite number(cardinality) as the whole heading of the FAQ even implies it.

The whole thing is talking about quantity and cardinality when referring to size and whether some higher quantity of universes will imply a higher dimesnionality and it clarified that yes it would only when the quantity is uncountably infinite or higher. So, no to any reference for spatial size in that FAQ?

You're mistaken, it is not solely talking about quantity and cardinality. It is talking about size (which is related, but not solely dependent on, those two things), and mentions that an uncountable number of universes is one of two ways to bridge the gap to Low 1-C, in absence of an explicit statement about its dimensionality. It is helpful because it clarifies that a multiverse being infinitely sized is not Low 1-C.

Q: Is destroying multiple infinite multiverses a better feat than destroying a single one?

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A.

The reason is that the total amount of universes contained in a collection of multiple infinitely-sized multiverses (even one consisting of infinitely many of them) is in fact equal to the amount of universes contained in a single one of the multiverses that form this ensemble: It is countably infinite, as the union of countably-many countable sets is itself countable, and thus does not differ in size from its components. The only general difference between multiple infinitely-sized multiverses and a single one is representation. What is considered to be multiple multiverses in one fiction could be considered a single multiverse in another, and vice versa, without the objective properties of those collections of universes changing. The only difference is where an author decided to draw the line between what belongs to the same multiverse and not. Thus, only an uncountably infinite number of universes actually makes any difference in terms of Attack Potency, at this scale.

This is made even clearer in the section titled "Is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?"

Q: Is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?

A: No, the default assumption is that this is not the case. "Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinite many, won't scale above a single 2-A structure in size. This is due to these structures actually have the same size as a baseline 2-A structure.

However, if "bigger" is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure qualitatively superior to a 2-A structure the structure qualifies for Low 1-C unless the fiction specifies otherwise.

To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size.

So, again, the FAQ is also referring to size, not specifically cardinality. The section on cardinality comes afterwards, and a careful reading of it reveals that your interpretation of the earlier entries is not valid:

Q: How do cardinal numbers relate to tiering?​

A: Firstly, it should be highlighted that asking about the tier of a cardinal number is effectively a meaningless question when the quantity which it is denoting is not specified in the question as well, and makes as much sense as asking "What tier is the number 8?"

Let's take the smallest infinite cardinal (aleph-0, or ℵ0, the cardinality of countably infinite sets) as an example in this case: A set comprised of a countably infinite number of 0-dimensional points is itself a 0-dimensional space under the usual notions of dimensionality, being thus still infinitely small. Meanwhile, a countably infinite number of planets is High 3-A, a countably infinite number of universes 2-A, and countably infinite dimensions High 1-B.

We then move on to the power set of ℵ0, P(ℵ0), which is an uncountably infinite quantity and represents the set of all the ways in which you can arrange the elements of a set whose cardinality is the former, and is also equal to the size of the set of all real numbers. In terms of points, one can say that everything from 1-dimensional space to (countably) infinite-dimensional space falls under it, as all of these spaces have the same number of elements (coordinates, in this case), in spite of each being infinitely larger than the preceding one by the intuitive notions of size that we regularly utilize (Area, Volume, etc.).

On the other hand, an P(ℵ0) number of universes is Low 1-C, and a similar number of spatial dimensions/layers of reality is Low 1-A.

However, the same does not necessarily apply when approaching sets of higher cardinalities than this (Such as P(P(ℵ0)), the power set of the power set of aleph-0), as they would be strictly bigger than all of the spaces mentioned above, by all rigorous notions of size, regardless of what their elements are. From this point and onwards, all such sets are Low 1-A at minimum.

Do note, however, that these infinities must specifically refer to elements that physically exist within a verse's cosmology. Them existing as in-universe mathematical concepts is not sufficient for anything to scale to them, unless there is a direct comparison that allows scaling to be made.

To recap this. Cardinality is not inherently related to scaling. The "cardinality" of everything from Tier 11 to 2-A is the same Aleph-0. One way in which cardinality can be relevant to scaling is when an Aleph-1 number of universes is involved, which indicates Low 1-C.

In the earlier FAQ entries, it is clarified that being bigger than a 2-A structure is not enough, unless specifically the 4-D space is regarded as infinitesimal to the structure or the number of universes within it has a higher cardinality. Conventional notions of "size" without those two clarifications (such as being called infinitely sized, as specified by the multiple references to an "infinitely sized multiverse" cannot bridge the gap between 2-A and Low 1-C. The multiverse being called "infinite" or "infinitely sized," such as in the Demon World's case, does not provide further evidence for its tier beyond the bare fact of it containing these Low 2-C structure, which is definitively 2-A.

 

[Tanin_iver]

This is made even clearer in the section titled "Is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?"

Q: Is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?

A: No, the default assumption is that this is not the case. "Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinite many, won't scale above a single 2-A structure in size. This is due to these structures actually have the same size as a baseline 2-A structure.

However, if "bigger" is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure qualitatively superior to a 2-A structure the structure qualifies for Low 1-C unless the fiction specifies otherwise.

Uhh, u sure? It is contrary to what u are saying. It literally defines "bigger" as in having more 2-A structures and not spatial size then it doesn't qualify. While, if the bigger size difference is indicated to mean spatial size(R^5 etc) or uncountably infinite then it qualifies.

You're mistaken, it is not solely talking about quantity and cardinality. It is talking about size, and mentions that an uncountable number of universes is one of two ways to bridge the gap to Low 1-C, in absence of an explicit statement about its dimensionality. It is helpful because it clarifies that a multiverse being infinitely sized is not Low 1-C.

Similar to Attack Potency, affecting multiple multiverses by default can not be considered a feat of superior Range to affecting a single one. As mentioned before there is no real difference between the size or properties of one or multiple multiverses. Hence there can be no objective difference in range either. This is made even worse by the fact that what we considered multiversal range, as the distance between universes or the distances between things in or between multiverses, is usually not directly stated or quantifiable in fiction, but instead is approximated by the number of universes. That idea becomes meaningless if we try to quantify different ranges within sets of universes of equal numbers. As a consequence, even if one verse gave an indirect indicator of different ranges in its multiverse it would be impossible to compare to a different fiction where such a quantification doesn't exist.
For example, if travelling to another multiverse is said to take longer than travelling within the same one, that would seem to be an indication of different ranges, but at the same time one can not compare those informations to another fiction, as there is no way to tell how travelling within the same multiverse in another fiction compares range wise to either of those distances.

However, feats regarding affecting multiple multiverses may indeed qualify as higher range if the verse itself treats it as such. Those feats need to be relatively explicit and objective. For example, one multiverse being outside of the range of an effect or of the power of a character that can affect one infinite multiverse doesn't necessarily mean the multiverse is further away. Other factors such as differences in nature and domain of the multiverses or characters could, amongst other many other factors, also be the reason.

It is made abundantly clear in the latter part of the FAQ that it is not talking about size as in spatial size but in cardinality, and even if there are multiple infinite multiverses it could be argued for increased range in certain cases and even that is hard to scale or compare across different fictions. Now if it was indeed infinite sized and hence infinite range then there can be no arguments or any reference for range in this part of the FAQ so what u are arguing is completely irrelevant.

Now(just for the sake of the argument), let's assume that the FAQ is indeed talking about infinite sized multiverse to mean size in the spatial sense, then could u elaborate/give example on what do u think the length of the axes for each dimension could be. I just want to understand what u understand by the term infinite sized multiverse.

 

[Deagonx]

It is contrary to what u are saying. It literally defines "bigger" as in having more 2-A structures and not spatial size then it doesn't qualify. While, if the bigger size difference is indicated to mean spatial size(R^5 etc) or uncountably infinite then it qualifies.

No, it says that the default assumption is that "bigger" does not mean Low 1-C, and gives examples of what "bigger" could mean that does not result in Low 1-C. It says, however, if what was said is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure qualitatively superior to a 2-A structure it would count. Then, it gives the two specific examples that would qualify for this in the other section that you did not quote:

To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size.

So, simply being "bigger" is insufficient. However, it could be sufficient if an uncountably infinite number of universes is mentioned, or there is a portrayal that demonstrates that the 2-A structure is infinitesimal relative to it. There is no evidence of the sort for the Demon World, we merely have statements of it being "infinite." That does not mean what is inside of it is infinitesimal to it.

It is made abundantly clear in the latter part of the FAQ that it is not talking about size as in spatial size but in cardinality, and even if there are multiple infinite multiverses it could be argued for increased range in certain cases and even that is hard to scale or compare across different fictions. Now if it was indeed infinite sized and hence infinite range then there can be no arguments or any reference for range in this part of the FAQ so what u are arguing is completely irrelevant.

You are mistaken, it is referring to size, and describes cardinality as one mechanism (but not the only mechanism) for achieving a size sufficiently beyond 2-A that it matters for tiering.

Now(just for the sake of the argument), let's assume that the FAQ is indeed talking about infinite sized multiverse to mean size in the spatial sense, then could u elaborate/give example on what do u think the length of the axes for each dimension could be. I just want to understand what u understand by the term infinite sized multiverse.

An infinitely sized multiverse would be infinite on all four primary dimensions (3+1) and which would be displaced along a 5-D axis of unknown, possibly infinitesimal, length.

I feel largely that we are getting nowhere, and that there is little to nothing that I could say that would effectively demonstrate to you that you have read the FAQ wrong and are advocating for Low 1-C on a basis that we explicitly reject as a wiki. I'm not content to go in circles here, if I feel that you are simply beyond convincing I will spend my time in better ways. So as one last ditch effort to see if we can't find some reconciliation here, I want to ask a pure hypothetical:

If DontTalkDT and Ultima_Reality were both called to this thread and they reviewed the arguments we both made and said "Deagon is correct here, a container for infinite Low 2-C universes itself being called infinite in size does not necessarily mean that the 5-D axis is infinite in size, and the FAQ says what he says it does" would you concede that you were mistaken, or would you tell DT and Ultima that they, too, are misreading the FAQ or that they miswrote it with regard to their intended meaning? For my part, I believe the FAQ is sufficiently clear on this and that there is no room for your interpretation anywhere within it. I believe DT and Ultima would agree, but I want to know if you'd consider their view on the matter authoritative or if you'd see it as being just as questionable as my own view on it.

 

[Agnaa]

Human World(Low 2-C 4D infinite) is explicitly stated(not focusing on the diagram bcos showing infinitesimal in a Manga page would be difficult) to be a ray of light (infinitesimal) to DW(which is another infinite structure). An infinite structure that is infinitesimal to another infinite structure necessitates that the larger structure is a higher infinite cardinal.

This also isn't the primary argument, I am just explaining you the concept.

A ray of light is not infinitesimal, it's finite.

And, as said, going off of other parts of the text, it implies that the human world is comparable in size to the demon world; two worlds co-existing is incongruent with one world being an infinitesimal line splitting another world in two (that'd leave at least three worlds, and doesn't fit with the rest of the language treating them as comparable/as a duality).

 

[SuperSonicTL]

A ray of light is not infinitesimal, it's finite.

And, as said, going off of other parts of the text, it implies that the human world is comparable in size to the demon world; two worlds co-existing is incongruent with one world being an infinitesimal line splitting another world in two (that'd leave at least three worlds, and doesn't fit with the rest of the language treating them as comparable/as a duality).

That's just what you think but then again, you said that Demon World is the lower realm here despite the entire series contradicting this notion of yours makes me think that you didn't understood the arguments entirely.

Anyway on the point, the comparison isn't just there due to their size. Look at the manga panel again. Human World is labeled as Light while Demon World is labeled as Darkness. The size is just a side content we have. The main point of that manga panel is the separation event of these worlds which was needed due to the chaos it was spreading throughout the entire structure of Demon World. As for the size, the Human World's size is of no relevancy whatsoever as it is just a mere ray of light which implies that it has no significance whereas the Demon World in its entirety is an non-ending Darkness.

Also where are you reading the "splitting in three" part again?

 

[Agnaa]

That's just what you think but then again, you said that Demon World is the lower realm here despite the entire series contradicting this notion of yours makes me think that you didn't understood the arguments entirely.

And despite you claiming the entire series contradicts that notion, you haven't provided one piece of evidence of that.

Anyway on the point, the comparison isn't just there due to their size. Look at the manga panel again. Human World is labeled as Light while Demon World is labeled as Darkness. The size is just a side content we have. The main point of that manga panel is the separation event of these worlds which was needed due to the chaos it was spreading throughout the entire structure of Demon World.

Yeah, obviously.

As for the size, the Human World's size is of no relevancy whatsoever as it is just a mere ray of light which implies that it has no significance whereas the Demon World in its entirety is an non-ending Darkness.

It's very relevant. For reasons I've explained, what, six times?

Also where are you reading the "splitting in three" part again?

This scan says "...there was a line of light, and the world ended up separated into two". There are two physically possible readings of this:

1. The line of light ended up expanding significantly, forming an entire other world. The two halves would be the darkness and the light.
2. The line of light didn't expand significantly, simply severing the darkness into two separated worlds.

Since the rest of the scan presents the darkness, the demon world, as one unified thing, #2 cannot be true, and so, #1 must be true, and so, the human world must be significant in size.

 

[Fixxed]

Basically almost all in the OP already getting rejected

I think the only hope is only the scan about "a ray of light", but some people seeing this not as inferior comparision's proof but as "duality" of darkness that equal to each other

I think firstly the supporter must convince everyone that the ray of light is small/insignificant in comparision to the darknness. If the small ray of light being taken literally as a just literal ray of light in the darkness, you can argue about infinitesimall and higher dimension here of course

For the higher/larger world (demon world) the lower/smaller world (human world) are just a ray of light. Yeah if the supporter can convince everyone about that, i think DW can have low 1C rating (experience after seeing this 3 thread)

 

[chosen]

And despite you claiming the entire series contradicts that notion, you haven't provided one piece of evidence of that.

Uhh,. would hellfire being considerated from the higher realm of icendary rather than lower realm in dmc1 help for this?

here scan

 

[Agnaa]

Uhh,. would hellfire being considerated from the higher realm of icendary rather than lower realm in dmc1 help for this?

here scan

No; "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the Frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary" just seems to be a poetic way of saying "They're invulnerable to volcanic fire, but weak to even stronger fire." Treating "higher realm" as referring to a literal realm doesn't make sense grammatically; they're not vulnerable to a location, they're vulnerable to certain kinds of fire.

 

[chosen]

No; "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the Frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary" just seems to be a poetic way of saying "They're invulnerable to volcanic fire, but weak to even stronger fire." Treating "higher realm" as referring to a literal realm doesn't make sense grammatically; they're not vulnerable to a location, they're vulnerable to certain kinds of fire.

Had in mind realms from the higher realm/underworld but that works too
Fair

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Basically almost all in the OP already getting rejected

I think the only hope is only the scan about "a ray of light", but some people seeing this not as inferior comparision's proof but as "duality" of darkness that equal to each other

I think firstly the supporter must convince everyone that the ray of light is small/insignificant in comparision to the darknness. If the small ray of light being taken literally as a just literal ray of light in the darkness, you can argue about infinitesimall and higher dimension here of course

For the higher/larger world (demon world) the lower/smaller world (human world) are just a ray of light. Yeah if the supporter can convince everyone about that, i think DW can have low 1C rating (experience after seeing this 3 thread)

You know what's the most fun part here is? We barely touched into the higher temporal dimensions that makes uncountably infinite snapshots of this same infinite Underworld which is very blatant but i rather have this spatial stuff clear before i proceed to that one.

So in short, this CRT is gonna take a while to be actually concluded.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

And despite you claiming the entire series contradicts that notion, you haven't provided one piece of evidence of that.

Alright but before i provide evidence for this notion i wanna confirm some stuff... Didn't you admitted the Underworld is vast on 5D scale? Atleast that is what Chosen believe atm after looking at your previous replies.

Yeah, obviously.

Then lets move on.

It's very relevant. For reasons I've explained, what, six times?

Except non of those reasons makes any sense to what @Tanin_iver and @Tony_di_bugalu are trying to propose here as far as i can tell.

Anyway there is another dude going to reply here that will clarify the spatial scaling so I'm leaving this one out for now.

This scan says "...there was a line of light, and the world ended up separated into two". There are two physically possible readings of this:

1. The line of light ended up expanding significantly, forming an entire other world. The two halves would be the darkness and the light.
2. The line of light didn't expand significantly, simply severing the darkness into two separated worlds.

Since the rest of the scan presents the darkness, the demon world, as one unified thing, #2 cannot be true, and so, #1 must be true, and so, the human world must be significant in size.

Now this is where i straight up disagree with you regardless what reasons you could come up with.

First of all, Itsuno said that there is only Human and Demon World in the entire cosmology and if you read the manga panel closely, it says the world was born from chaos (Primordial universe) which is also known as Darkness where a small of Ray of Light popped into existence within it. If these two are supposed to represent Human and Demon World then may i ask you where is the third realm in the entire run of the series? I'll give you time to think about that one.

Now here is another question for you... Can you exactly tell me where it says 'Ray of Light" splitted the world in two? Lemme tell you coz you can't. Why you can't? Coz the world was not splitted by Light but rather, by the first Demon God named Pluto who was there since the primordial days and the reason why Human World was separated from Demon World and why Mundus wanted to merge the world as one:

"Pluto shall come on the promised date and separate heaven and earth. One with black wings of treachery shall come and stand in Pluto’s way."

For further context, you can go into the "creation of the universe" section here.

And thus, another reason for you assuming Human World is significant is revoked.

 

[Agnaa]

Alright but before i provide evidence for this notion i wanna confirm some stuff... Didn't you admitted the Underworld is vast on 5D scale? Atleast that is what Chosen believe atm after looking at your previous replies.

No.

Except non of those reasons makes any sense to what @Tanin_iver and @Tony_di_bugalu are trying to propose here as far as i can tell.

If six explanations aren't enough for y'all I can't do anything more. At least the other staff members who have read those posts seem to understand and agree.

Now this is where i straight up disagree with you regardless what reasons you could come with.

First of all, Itsuno said that there is only Human and Demon World in the entire cosmology and if you read the manga panel closely, it says the world was born from chaos (Primordial universe) which is also known as Darkness where a small of Ray of Light popped into existence within it. If these two are supposed to represent Human and Demon World then may i ask you where is the third realm in the entire run of the series? I'll give you time to think about that one.

I expected there to be something like that, and it supports my point, so, cool?

Now here is another question for you... Can you exactly tell me where it says Ray of Light splitted the world in two? Lemme tell you coz you can't.

I can, actually. It's from this scan; the one I was directly quoting.

Why you can't? Coz the world was not splitted by Light but rather, by the first Demon God named Pluto who was there since the primordial days and the reason why Human World was separated from Demon World and why Mundus wanted to merge the world as one:

For further context, you can go into the "creation of the universe" section here.

And thus, another reason for you assuming Human World is significant is revoked.

Are you arguing that this scan, one of the central pieces of evidence y'all have been touting this whole time, is entirely bullshit?

Bold strategy.

 

[Robo432343]

i think we should take a look at this blog
it explains the Low 1-C reasoning pretty well

GilverTheProtoAngelo/sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[chosen]

No.

For clarification i didn't mean You agree With 5d in vastness just that the lower and higher realm doesn't contradict it's vastness, sonic misunderstood me-:

 

[Agnaa]

i think we should take a look at this blog
it explains the Low 1-C reasoning pretty well

GilverTheProtoAngelo/sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

That just looks like an outdated version of this blog, which has been discussed since the start.

Useless, uninformed posts like this make me consider converting this thread to staff-only.

 

[Deagonx]

So in short, this CRT is gonna take a while to be actually concluded

That's unlikely, just FYI. The only part of the proposal that had agreement from staff was one additional temporal axis, but the vote is 2-4 or possibly 1-4.

I'm fine with letting the discussion continue, but this thread won't simply stay open perpetually until you feel all points are satisfied.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Honestly, I'd say this thread is thoroughly rejected.

 

[Agnaa]

I do have a bit of a bad habit of engaging with arguments well past their merit. I wouldn't really be opposed to ending this thread here.

 

[Tanin_iver]

I do have a bit of a bad habit of engaging with arguments well past their merit. I wouldn't really be opposed to ending this thread here.

I intend to respond here. I haven't been able to engage much as have been busy with work. And there is nothing wrong with asking more staff to evaluate this thread but I wanted to proceed with the discussion at hand and then invite them. This is a discussion and not an opinion poll that we end abruptly whenever a side is leading with votes. I hope u can understand the sentiments.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That's unlikely, just FYI. The only part of the proposal that had agreement from staff was one additional temporal axis, but the vote is 2-4 or possibly 1-4.

That's because i barely touched on that part which is a whole different discussion of its own.

I'm fine with letting the discussion continue, but this thread won't simply stay open perpetually until you feel all points are satisfied.

I say give us some time. We might manage it out at the end of the day.

 

[Agnaa]

My post was meant to indicate that I don't care too much either way (hence why I haven't already closed it myself).

 

[Deagonx]

I intend to respond here. I haven't been able to engage much as have been busy with work.

If nothing else, I would like for you to answer this question:

I believe DT and Ultima would agree, but I want to know if you'd consider their view on the matter authoritative or if you'd see it as being just as questionable as my own view on it.

And there is nothing wrong with asking more staff to evaluate this thread but I wanted to proceed with the discussion at hand and then invite them. This is a discussion and not an opinion poll that we end abruptly whenever a side is leading with votes. I hope u can understand the sentiments.

Sure, but at some point a thread is simply not viable and it's not practical to try and drag out more staff members to an 8 page thread about Tier 1 cosmology stuff when already very few staff members have any interest in that.

That's because i barely touched on that part which is a whole different discussion of its own.
I say give us some time. We might manage it out at the end of the day.

Well, you had an entire OP which in an ideal scenario is supposed to establish the points thoroughly enough on their own. But the fact that even the staff who usually support this verse were only comfortable with 1 out of 5 proposed levels of QS does not bode well at all.

For my part, this seems to be a matter of standards. You have proposed multiple temporal axis additions and spatial axis additions and each are similar to one another in their respective categories, relying on reasoning that I believe is very clearly incompatible with our existing standards. I would recommend that in the future you attempt one level of QS at a time instead of trying to do 5 at once. It's not a small thing for a verse to be upgraded by an infinite degree, and handling that is usually a complicated matter all on its own.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Well, you had an entire OP which in an ideal scenario is supposed to establish the points thoroughly enough on their own. But the fact that even the staff who usually support this verse were only comfortable with 1 out of 5 proposed levels of QS does not bode well at all.

Well for my defense, I'm really new on the wiki atm so logically i wouldn't know how things work here.

My only major role on the site before this CRT was downgrading Soul King's CM justification from Bleach but that's nothing in comparison to this one.

My view of how a CRT really works was me giving the summary there on the OP while the actual review would be on the blog so i just did that. How would i knew everyone would just ignore the blog i made with detail like just that?

Anyway I'm starting to get an idea now how things work around here so i would be careful next time however we should focus on the current topic then we jump on the next ones.

When all the points are cleared then we can decide what to do next.

For my part, this seems to be a matter of standards. You have proposed multiple temporal axis additions and spatial axis additions and each are similar to one another in their respective categories, relying on reasoning that I believe is very clearly incompatible with our existing standards.

There are contexts for that.

I'd say read the blog i linked in the OP to get a very clear view on the arguments then tell me what you think, how's that?

I would recommend that in the future you attempt one level of QS at a time instead of trying to do 5 at once. It's not a small thing for a verse to be upgraded by an infinite degree, and handling that is usually a complicated matter all on its own.

Alright, will take this as a lesson from now on.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

No.

Alright, so lets see what makes Demon World have QS over Human World:

• Gave birth to Human World.
• Was going to consume Human World, not other way around.
• Was stated to be an Endless in its entirety in comparison to Human World.
• Was treated as a higher realm and before you gonna go with it referring to Human World, just learn the meaning of what "both" means.
• Human World is soo fragile that it couldn't accept beings that do not follow its laws.
• Demon Gods can't go into the Human World due to, again, pretty fragile structure.
• Human World belongs to Demon World.

With all these evidences, we clearly can assume Demon World is superior to Human World from every possible perspective.

Also a little correction, Chosen actually meant that you said the lower and higher realm scan doesn't contradict it being vast in 5D, not that you thinks its 5D. So my bad on that part but yeah.

If six explanations aren't enough for y'all I can't do anything more. At least the other staff members who have read those posts seem to understand and agree.

That's the hilarious part, they didn't.

They just read the OP instead of going through the blog and pointing the main points out but here we are.

I expected there to be something like that, and it supports my point, so, cool?

Bro is not even trying at this point. Just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I can, actually. It's from this scan; the one I was directly quoting.

Again, where is the part that says Light splitted the Darkness in two. Go on, I'm waiting.

Are you arguing that this scan, one of the central pieces of evidence y'all have been touting this whole time, is entirely bullshit?

Bold strategy.

My guy... The only bullshit here is you bragging without any proof while i have mine. So spare me from this nonsense.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The thing about the ray of light is that it is described as a single ray of light in infinite darkness. The light became the realm of humans. In other words, the human universe is treated as finite compared to an infinitely larger darkness; the Demon World.

this scan; the one I was directly quoting.

This scan states that the worlds eventually split without explaining what actually caused it, and it does seem to imply that the light split the worlds, but it is actually not the ray of light that split the worlds. There is another entry that directly states that Pluto (a demon king) separated the worlds himself.

That's because i barely touched on that part which is a whole different discussion of its own.

Sonic, I appreciate the effort you've made and I understand that you're stressed here. Still, Agnaa seems to be trying to understand; I don't think the misunderstanding of the scan was intentional, and explaining things is a better way of discussing than getting frustrated with Agnaa. Please calm down a bit.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Sonic, I appreciate the effort you've made and I understand that you're stressed here. Still, Agnaa seems to be trying to understand; I don't think the misunderstanding of the scan was intentional, and explaining things is a better way of discussing than getting frustrated with Agnaa. Please calm down a bit.

Well if you say so then i'll try to be a bit.

Its just me explaining the very obvious feels like an intentional dragging of this entire thread but i digress. I just wish i wasn't the only one handling the thread.

On top of that, my usual routine, despite being busy to hell, somehow spares up some time to explain something that doesn't need to be explained at all and yet here we are.

 

[Deagonx]

How would i knew everyone would just ignore the blog i made with detail like just that?

I'd say read the blog i linked in the OP to get a very clear view on the arguments then tell me what you think, how's that?

The blog wasn't ignored. The reason the vast majority of the upgrades were rejected is that the reasoning for several of them is just not viable at all, not because the blog version wasn't given due weight. Moreover, the blog structures the argument differently, so I wouldn't simply consider it a "more detailed version. I addressed the blog when Tony first made it.

The reason that most of the post hasn't gotten engagement is that most of the arguments are so straightforwardly false that they warrant little discussion. I'm not trying to be harsh, but it's the truth. These are the essential arguments

A1: Hellfilfth and Mundus' realms are 5D due to being outside of time.

R1: This is self evidently false based on this section of the FAQ.​

A2: The DW contains all of these realms, meaning it must be a 6D container

R2: This was discussed in detail above​

A3: The DW also has it's own timeline, meaning it is 7D

R3: Having a separate flow of time doesn't give it two temporal axes. It's just a bad argument.​

A4: The Hypertimeline makes the cosmology 8D

R4: Also discussed in detail above​

A5: Another spatial axis that makes HW and DW separate, so 9D.

R5: You do not need an extra spatial axis for them to be separate. This is also a bad argument​

A6: Then, another layer due to MWI, so 10-D range for "infinite knowledge."

R6: This was discussed very little because no one scales to it for AP. However having infinite knowledge doesn't give you range for the whole cosmology.​

I'm not surprised that even the supporting mods only saw A4 as being viable. Even if there were some muddiness about the "5D displacement axis" thing, the rest is very clearly wrong. The argument that "Sparda stopped the flow of time in DW, therefore it has its own temporal axis, therefore it has two temporal axes" was genuinely confusing. None of that has anything to do with having two temporal axes.

They just read the OP instead of going through the blog and pointing the main points out but here we are.

Frankly, if some crucial point was hidden in the blog instead of in the OP, you are responsible for not putting it in the OP. I've read the blog, it really doesn't add very much. Like I said, most of the arguments are just blatantly wrong. The rest are based less on the details of the cosmology itself but more what our standards actually are for these things, which is why I've focused less on contesting the claims made about the verse (such as whether the DW actually even contains infinite Low 2-C realms within it) and more on the standards.

I do have a bit of a bad habit of engaging with arguments well past their merit.

Me too, king.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

A1: Hellfilfth and Mundus' realms are 5D due to being outside of time.

R1: This is self evidently false based on this section of the FAQ.​

The nature of realm itself seems to indicate being beyond space and time while being metaphysical and transcendental in nature but i can ignore this one for now.

A2: The DW contains all of these realms, meaning it must be a 6D container

R2: This was discussed in detail above​

The discussion wasn't clear. Why Human World not having separate rules of space and time from the entire Demon World is not enough proof for Hypertimeline? You just labeled almost everything vague without any clear example of why we should consider it vague in the first place.

A3: The DW also has it's own timeline, meaning it is 7D

R3: Having a separate flow of time doesn't give it two temporal axes. It's just a bad argument.​

The lower realm like Human World almost opposes Demon World in every single aspect let alone other sub-realms and since Demon World has its own flow of time on top of Human World that appears to contradict Human World from both spatial and temporal sense, therefore, we can easily get to the conclusion that there are two separate temporal axis engulfing one another at this point.

A4: The Hypertimeline makes the cosmology 8D

R4: Also discussed in detail above​

I assume you meant the overarching timeline.

In case you didn't understood, the overarching timeline is another layer of temporal dimension above even Demon World hence why it has uncountably infinite snapshots of both Human and Demon World and the space between them.

PoC also supported this by outright calling it an parallel universe. Same as the novels as well.

A5: Another spatial axis that makes HW and DW separate, so 9D.

R5: You do not need an extra spatial axis for them to be separate. This is also a bad argument​

This is not my thing to argue so i leave this as well for others to fill out.

A6: Then, another layer due to MWI, so 10-D range for "infinite knowledge."

R6: This was discussed very little because no one scales to it for AP. However having infinite knowledge doesn't give you range for the whole cosmology.​

This is little because it is the obvious one.

There are infinite timelines coz there are infinite Demons. The infinite knowledge argument is something used as back up support due to Chen's knowledge directly relating to his future sight he received from Beastheads.

I'm not surprised that even the supporting mods only saw A4 as being viable. Even if there were some muddiness about the "5D displacement axis" thing, the rest is very clearly wrong. The argument that "Sparda stopped the flow of time in DW, therefore it has its own temporal axis, therefore it has two temporal axes" was genuinely confusing. None of that has anything to do with having two temporal axes.

The Sparda scan clearly indicates that the Demon World in its entirety has a flow of time of its own hence why all of it was stopped but the flow of time from inner realms were still functioning nonetheless.

Frankly, if some crucial point was hidden in the blog instead of in the OP, you are responsible for not putting it in the OP. I've read the blog, it really doesn't add very much. Like I said, most of the arguments are just blatantly wrong. The rest are based less on the details of the cosmology itself but more what our standards actually are for these things, which is why I've focused less on contesting the claims made about the verse (such as whether the DW actually even contains infinite Low 2-C realms within it) and more on the standards.

You did both at the same time actually.

You contested the feats by interpreting it in your own way as well as use the standards where it crosses with your interpretations.

 

[Deagonx]

The nature of realm itself seems to indicate being beyond space and time while being metaphysical and transcendental in nature but i can ignore this one for now.

That is far too nebulous to grant QS. We can't vibe-check a realm and say it's infinitely superior.

There are infinite timelines coz there are infinite Demons. The infinite knowledge argument is something used as back up support due to Chen's knowledge directly relating to his future sight he received from Beastheads.

Setting aside the infinite timelines argument, Chen's knowledge doesn't have anything to do with our "range" statistic.

Why Human World not having separate rules of space and time from the entire Demon World is not enough proof for Hypertimeline? You just labeled almost everything vague without any clear example of why we should consider it vague in the first place.

In case you didn't understood, the overarching timeline is another layer of temporal dimension above even Demon World hence why it has infinite snapshots of both Human and Demon World and the space between them.

The lower realm like Human World almost opposes Demon World in every single aspect let alone other sub-realms and since Demon World has its own flow of time on top of Human World that appears to contradict Human World from both spatial and temporal sense, therefore, we can easily get to the conclusion that there are two separate temporal axis engulfing one another at this point.

The Sparda scan clearly indicates that the Demon World in its entirety has a flow of time of its own hence why all of it was stopped but the flow of time from inner realms were still functioning nonetheless.

You need proof that there are axes of time that is oriented in an entirely different direction than "past" and "future" of the verse's primary temporal axis. Having higher layers of time does not accomplish that. Having different speeds or rates of time also does not accomplish that. You cannot simply go a layer up and say "also there's a whole new temporal axis here, so that's another degree of QS." You have to prove that this layer is an entirely new axis, not just a larger/broader version of the same axis.

Having "different laws of time" may simply refer to the separation or the irregular flow in terms of speed. It falls very short of the standard required for an actually new temporal axis. Further, Sparda being able to pause time in one while the other continues also does not dictate that they are oriented in different directions. They still share the same direction of past and future, it just doesn't move at the same pace. They don't need to be perfectly linked or mirrored on a temporal level for them to share a temporal axis. This is about direction, not movement.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That is far too nebulous to grant QS. We can't vibe-check a realm and say it's infinitely superior.

I suppose but still something to be considered.

Setting aside the infinite timelines argument, Chen's knowledge doesn't have anything to do with our "range" statistic.

Again, Chen's knowledge is directly related to his future seeing capability as he was predicting every possible moves from Dante into the future through it soo it's a supporting evidence no matter how you look at it.

You need proof that there are axes of time that is oriented in an entirely different direction than "past" and "future" of the verse's primary temporal axis.

Human World having different flow of time and different rules of space and time is enough proof in my eyes. Don't know about you.

Having higher layers of time does not accomplish that.

It does if the lower temporal dimension (Human World) is way out of the usual ones in comparison to the higher temporal dimension (Demon World) that contains it within.

Having different speeds or rates of time also does not accomplish that.

Can act as a supporting evidence if more supporting scans are there which is the case here.

You cannot simply go a layer up and say "also there's a whole new temporal axis here, so that's another degree of QS." You have to prove that this layer is an entirely new axis, not just a larger/broader version of the same axis.

I proved it already. You just misinterpreting it in your own views. I seen verse's with lesser justifications qualifying for it.

Having "different laws of time" may simply refer to the separation or the irregular flow in terms of speed. It falls very short of the standard required for an actually new temporal axis.

Where? Where is the proof of it referring to the irregular flow of time in terms of speed? Also this scan right here says time passes in Mirror World "awkwardly" here, nothing about speeding up or slowing down. It falls just fine for the standards, you're not allowing it.

Further, Sparda being able to pause time in one while the other continues also does not dictate that they are oriented in different directions. They still share the same direction of past and future, it just doesn't move at the same pace. They don't need to be perfectly linked or mirrored on a temporal level for them to share a temporal axis. This is about direction, not movement.

Again, if that doesn't satisfy you then Human World surely do. I don't need to explain anything beyond this. Regardless what you believe here would be the case.

 

[Georredannea15]

A5: Another spatial axis that makes HW and DW separate, so 9D.
R5: You do not need an extra spatial axis for them to be separate. This is also a bad argument

Actually, I quoted from both Ultima and DT. You need an extra spatial axis for them to separate, but that extra spatial axis is not enough for a scale. (So... I guess that's what DeagonX meant when he said you don't need an extra spatial axis, otherwise every space with a multiverse in it should have an extra axis)

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Fax indeed, spit your shit.

Agreed

 

[Deagonx]

Human World having different flow of time and different rules of space and time is enough proof in my eyes. Don't know about you.

You need to support that with an argument. Having a "different flow of time" =/= "having a temporal orientation that is directionally distinct from the past and future of the primary temporal axis." A slower or faster flow of time could be a different flow of time, a spatiotemporally separate flow of time could be a "different flow of time." Yet neither of those are sufficient, explicitly so according to the FAQ.

It does if the lower temporal dimension (Human World) is way out of the usual ones in comparison to the higher temporal dimension (Demon World) that contains it within.

No, you would need proof that they do not have the same direction of "past" and "future." Being "way out of the usual ones" (not sure what you even mean by that) doesn't accomplish this.

Can act as a supporting evidence if more supporting scans are there which is the case here.

No it can't. Those pieces of information are just entirely irrelevant.

I seen verse's with lesser justifications qualifying for it.

Then all of them are wrong.

Where is the proof of it referring to the irregular flow of time in terms of speed? Also this scan right here says time passes in Mirror World "awkwardly" here, nothing about speeding up or slowing down. It falls just fine for the standards, you're not allowing it.

It says:

"Often I feel that the time passes awkwardly around here. In some places the flowers never die. In other places they wither ever so quickly." This is indicating that in certain areas the time progresses slowly (such that the flowers age so slowly that they never die) and others more quickly (such that they wither faster than expected). Even if that clarification was not provided, the word "awkwardly" is not sufficient by itself to suggest an orthogonal temporal axis.

Again, if that doesn't satisfy you then Human World surely do. I don't need to explain anything beyond this. Regardless what you believe here would be the case.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

[Tanin_iver]

If nothing else, I would like for you to answer this question:
I believe DT and Ultima would agree, but I want to know if you'd consider their view on the matter authoritative or if you'd see it as being just as questionable as my own view on it.

Firstly they aren't the sole authority in the wiki, and I think DT has even said as such. However, considering they have been heavily involved with the standards and their revisions, I would definitely give their view weight. And since we are discussing this with regards to the FAQ on what they mean by their wordings specifically, well they are the ones who have written it so their interpretation is absolute.

If DontTalkDT and Ultima_Reality were both called to this thread and they reviewed the arguments we both made and said "Deagon is correct here, a container for infinite Low 2-C universes itself being called infinite in size does not necessarily mean that the 5-D axis is infinite in size, and the FAQ says what he says it does" would you concede that you were mistaken, or would you tell DT and Ultima that they, too, are misreading the FAQ or that they miswrote it with regard to their intended meaning? For my part, I believe the FAQ is sufficiently clear on this and that there is no room for your interpretation anywhere within it. I believe DT and Ultima would agree, but I want to know if you'd consider their view on the matter authoritative or if you'd see it as being just as questionable as my own view on it.

Whether they agree or disagree with this thread and their arguments is another matter and they will have to evaluate it on their own terms. I however went ahead and asked both of them what does the FAQ mean with regards to infinite sized multiverse. Ultima responded clarifying that it is indeed talking about cardinality in that specific instance that you quoted. DT has yet to respond but I do believe he would say the same. In short, infinitely sized in the context of that FAQ simply means countably infinite number of universes in the multiverse and not the size of the space/container being infinite in size.

So now, "would you concede that you were mistaken, or would you tell DT and Ultima that they, too, are misreading the FAQ or that they miswrote it with regard to their intended meaning? For my part, I believe the FAQ is sufficiently clear on this and that there is no room for your interpretation anywhere within it. I believe DT and Ultima would agree, but I want to know if you'd consider their view on the matter authoritative or if you'd see it as being just as questionable as my own view on it."

To be clear before u start misrepresenting me again, I am specifically responding to these claims as these were the points of our contentions and disagreements:

The problem is that this FAQ clearly contradicts that. The superset of 4-D structures being infinitely sized is just 2-A, so your reasoning is not accepted in our standards. I am not -- as you have claimed -- referring to quantity instead of size nor have I misunderstood your argument. I am stating clearing that evidence of the Demon World being "infinitely sized" as well as it containing infinite Low 2-C realms officially makes it 2-A per our standards. To go beyond that we would need either an express statement of it being 5-D or that it is uncountably infinitely larger than the realms within it.

The FAQ is also referring to the size of the container. This is evident from the phrase "infinitely-sized multiverse." The FAQ clearly states this is 2-A.

Put simply, a single infinitely-sized container for Low 2-C structures is itself 2-A.

You're mistaken, it is not solely talking about quantity and cardinality. It is talking about size (which is related, but not solely dependent on, those two things), and mentions that an uncountable number of universes is one of two ways to bridge the gap to Low 1-C, in absence of an explicit statement about its dimensionality. It is helpful because it clarifies that a multiverse being infinitely sized is not Low 1-C.

An infinitely sized multiverse would be infinite on all four primary dimensions (3+1) and which would be displaced along a 5-D axis of unknown, possibly infinitesimal, length.

I only made this short response because you keep misrepresenting or maybe misunderstand that specific FAQ.
Anyways, I will discuss about the other stuff later on.

 

[Tanin_iver]

My post was meant to indicate that I don't care too much either way (hence why I haven't already closed it myself).

I see. But could you clarify if u will participate in this thread moving forward or are you done with it?
Meanwhile, would you mind looking into this thread when you have the time. It might interest you or maybe not, idk.

 

[Deagonx]

Firstly they aren't the sole authority in the wiki, and I think DT has even said as such. However, considering they have been heavily involved with the standards and their revisions, I would definitely give their view weight. And since we are discussing this with regards to the FAQ on what they mean by their wordings specifically, well they are the ones who have written it so their interpretation is absolute.

Okay. I am prepared to seek their input, but let us make sure that we agree on the substance of the argument. I would formulate it like this:

P1: The Demon World is composed of infinite 4-D structures (2-A)
P2: DontTalk said these 4-D structures must be displaced along a 5-D axis
C1: Therefore, the DW represents this 5-D axis and/or 5-D superstructure
P3: The DW is itself called infinite
C2: Therefore the 5-D axis is infinite, making this structure Low 1-C

This is my counter-argument:

P1: The FAQ says a single "infinitely-sized" multiverse is 2-A, not Low 1-C. Further, infinitely many "infinitely sized multiverses" are still just 2-A.
P2: The FAQ says that "bigger" than 2-A isn't Low 1-C without proof of QS (uncountable universes, or evidence the 2-A structure is infinitesimal)
C1: Therefore, statements that the DW is infinite are not evidence of Low 1-C, as "infinitely sized" multiverses are specified in the FAQ to be 2-A.

This is your counter-counterargument:

P1: The FAQ entries in question are addressing cardinality, not "spatial size."
P2: The DW being called "infinite" should be interpreted as referring to "spatial size"
C1: Therefore, these FAQ entries are unrelated to the reasoning being used.
C2: Therefore, it is still the case that the DW being called "infinite" and being composed of infinite 4-D structures makes it Low 1-C.

The questions are thus:
1) Does the information in the first argument sufficiently justify Low 1-C in our current standards?
2) Does the FAQ itself sufficiently rebut this by addressing "infinitely sized" multiverses and "infinite" multiverses as 2-A, such that the Demon World being called "infinite" can appropriately be assumed to refer to the same notion of "infinite" using in those same descriptors?

Are these accurate representations of the state of the discussion? I am open to suggested changes, but I do insist on the structure set forth being maintained so that the core questions they are being asked is very straightforward.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Okay. I am prepared to seek their input, but let us make sure that we agree on the substance of the argument. I would formulate it like this:

P1: The Demon World is composed of infinite 4-D structures (2-A)
P2: DontTalk said these 4-D structures must be displaced along a 5-D axis
C1: Therefore, the DW represents this 5-D axis and/or 5-D superstructure
P3: The DW is itself called infinite
C2: Therefore the 5-D axis is infinite, making this structure Low 1-C

This is my counter-argument:

P1: The FAQ says a single "infinitely-sized" multiverse is 2-A, not Low 1-C. Further, infinitely many "infinitely sized multiverses" are still just 2-A.
P2: The FAQ says that "bigger" than 2-A isn't Low 1-C without proof of QS (uncountable universes, or evidence the 2-A structure is infinitesimal)
C1: Therefore, statements that the DW is infinite are not evidence of Low 1-C, as "infinitely sized" multiverses are specified in the FAQ to be 2-A.

This is your counter-counterargument:

P1: The FAQ entries in question are addressing cardinality, not "spatial size."
P2: The DW being called "infinite" should be interpreted as referring to "spatial size"
C1: Therefore, these FAQ entries are unrelated to the reasoning being used.
C2: Therefore, it is still the case that the DW being called "infinite" and being composed of infinite 4-D structures makes it Low 1-C.

The questions are thus:
1) Does the information in the first argument sufficiently justify Low 1-C in our current standards?
2) Does the FAQ itself sufficiently rebut this by addressing "infinitely sized" multiverses and "infinite" multiverses as 2-A, such that the Demon World being called "infinite" can appropriately be assumed to refer to the same notion of "infinite" using in those same descriptors?

Are these accurate representations of the state of the discussion? I am open to suggested changes, but I do insist on the structure set forth being maintained so that the core questions they are being asked is very straightforward.

NGL, this is a good step forward and I appreciate all the effort you have put in. Unfortunately, I won't be able to follow up right now, as I have work tomorrow and need to go. Looks ok at a glance, however I will try to get into any specific contention(if I find) later.

 

[Deagonx]

NGL, this is a good step forward and I appreciate all the effort you have put in. Unfortunately, I won't be able to follow up right now, as I have work tomorrow and need to go. Looks ok at a glance, however I will try to get into any specific contention(if I find) later.

Very well. We can hold off until you have the time to get into the specifics.

 

[Agnaa]

Alright, so lets see what makes Demon World have QS over Human World:

• Gave birth to Human World.

That's not what that scan says, but even if it was, that would not be evidence for QS.

• Was going to consume Human World, not other way around.

That link doesn't work, but from how you describe it, it's not evidence for QS.

• Was stated to be an Endless in its entirety in comparison to Human World.

That implies a countably infinite or smaller increase in size, which is not evidence for QS, and implies that it doesn't occupy a significantly larger space; contradicting one way of achieving Low 1-C.

• Was treated as a higher realm and before you gonna go with it referring to Human World, just learn the meaning of what "both" means.

This link doesn't work, but we've already gone over it; it contradicts there being a QS since that conquering was something that had to be done, and was seen as an achievement, rather than being something the weakest demon could do with zero effort.

• Human World is soo fragile that it couldn't accept beings that do not follow its laws.

That's just the world having fragile laws; not evidence for QS.

• Demon Gods can't go into the Human World due to, again, pretty fragile structure.

That actually says they're power's too much to fully cross over, so they need to take on a proxy appearance. Which is not evidence for QS; this sort of thing can happen to comparable realms.

• Human World belongs to Demon World.

That actually says "The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils eventually reverts to its original form." Which is not evidence for QS. Even if it did say what you said, that would not be evidence for QS.

With all these evidences, we clearly can assume Demon World is superior to Human World from every possible perspective.

You've given five things which don't qualify, and two things which contradict it.

Again, where is the part that says Light splitted the Darkness in two. Go on, I'm waiting.

This scan which says "Endless darkness, a container of chaos, but even in such a world there was a line of light, and the world ended up separated into two. Darkness is the demon world..."

The thing about the ray of light is that it is described as a single ray of light in infinite darkness. The light became the realm of humans. In other words, the human universe is treated as finite compared to an infinitely larger darkness; the Demon World.

I already know, and have addressed this aspect six separate times.

This scan states that the worlds eventually split without explaining what actually caused it, and it does seem to imply that the light split the worlds, but it is actually not the ray of light that split the worlds. There is another entry that directly states that Pluto (a demon king) separated the worlds himself.

Have you considered these possibilities:

• The ray of light caused a separation (i.e. distinction) between light and darkness, while Pluto caused a separation (i.e. physically creating a gap) between those worlds of light and darkness? Especially since y'all're treating the ray of light as the human world, and so it wouldn't have existed prior to the events of this panel, while Kep's explanation of the creation of the universe mentioned that the Human World and the Demon World were initially mixed, leading to pandemonium and many deaths. We know that the Pluto stuff took place after the Human World already existed.
• Pluto caused the ray of light to come about, separating the worlds?
• The event with Pluto is one that will happen in the future, rather than this event which happened in the past? (Given how the manga seems to be describing a creation story, while the scan about Pluto comes from a book, which is talking about an event which hadn't happened at the time of it being written).
• Pluto simply maintained the separation, rather than causing it himself, as said through this scan, where he emerged after they were already split, and prevented them from ever being split apart again.

Because just from a writing standpoint, when you write "There was nothing, and then X appeared, and Y happened" you mean that X caused Y.

I see. But could you clarify if u will participate in this thread moving forward or are you done with it?

I'm torn. I feel like I should give it a fair shake, but I've already spent more than half of this thread doing that, and more irrelevant nonsense (like "the demon world was gonna consume the human world! That makes it Low 1-C!") keeps getting brought up. It'd probably be wisest for me to respond to a few of the better arguments, and ignore the worse ones unless staff say they agree with them.

Meanwhile, would you mind looking into this thread when you have the time. It might interest you or maybe not, idk.

I actively dislike doing stuff like this, so I don't engage unless I see people getting others to agree with their butchering of standards.