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Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

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I pretty much agree with Deagon and Fuji about everything except only one thing, I think they've done a good work on debunking the extra-dimension thingies, one of which is only "Haha he transcends space-time so he 5-D".
However, I only have one question in regards to Fuji's post, which might pertrude a reply from me onto it. Take into account that I'm not that knowleadgable of hyper-timelines-wanks so I might be slow to follow.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Now, let's examine this proposed model with a more scrutinizing eye. These events occur during the Devil May Cry Volume 2 novel. As stated by the OP, the novel takes place in an alternate timeline where Mundus was successful in his war against the humans, causing the Demon World to subsume the Human World. This is equated to merging the two worlds together. Even outside of the novelization and Mundus' plan, the consequences of such an event are made apparent. Numerous characters make reference to or have the ability to merge the DW and HW together; It's practically the central conflict of the series at this point. So why does the OP insist that the two realms are separate, when the novel goes through great pains to explain that they were successfully merged together?

This becomes even stranger when looking deeper at DMC's current cosmology and profiles. The main basis of 2-C scaling stems from beings merging these two realms together; In order for this to be a 2-C feat at all, they must be merged on a temporal level as well, not just spatial. The natural consequence of that is that the two would share the same flow of time, and would be considered the same timeline by extension. And if they're the same timeline, then the OP's entire point falls apart. No higher-dimensional time flow is needed to compensate for the two realms sharing the same timeline. It is very strange to me that, after years of pushing for these feats to get accepted, DMC supporters are now insistent that they aren't valid at all, simply because their validity would outright debunk the notion of a higher-dimensional timeline. But enough about that. What would this more accurate model look like?
FetdukS.png

So what does this all mean? If the Human World and Demon World are merged, then they would by definition share the same timeline. There is no "greater timeline" embedding both; They are only in this interconnected state because Mundus basically glued them together. The existence of a hypertimeline is not needed to explain this chain of events, because the novel already explains it in a way that is not only consistent with the 2-C scaling, but is in fact integral to it.

In case I didn't get it across clearly enough earlier, allow me to recap: Mundus' plan is to merge the HW and DW together. The Volume 2 novel presents us with an alt timeline where Mundus' plan is successful. Ergo, the alt timeline is just a fusion of the HW and DW.

TL;DR: The entire basis of this point - that the alt timeline Human and Demon Worlds are separate timelines - is explicitly contradicted by the original source and additional context from across the rest of the series.
Click to expand...
With this, are you trying to imply that the DW is only L2-C as well as the Human World, or that both are only L2-C and therefore should be contained within one timeline/space-time?
If it's the first one, then I suppose this part is fine, but if it's the second one, then I disagree
 
Palito266 said:
I pretty much agree with Deagon and Fuji about everything except only one thing, I think they've done a good work on debunking the extra-dimension thingies, one of which is only "Haha he transcends space-time so he 5-D".
However, I only have one question in regards to Fuji's post, which might pertrude a reply from me onto it. Take into account that I'm not that knowleadgable of hyper-timelines-wanks so I might be slow to follow.


With this, are you trying to imply that the DW is only L2-C as well as the Human World, or that both are only L2-C and therefore should be contained within one timeline/space-time?
If it's the first one, then I suppose this part is fine, but if it's the second one, then I disagree
Click to expand...
The HW and DW, in their natural state, are separate timelines/space-times. However, they would become the same timeline/space-time if Mundus successfully merged the two together, which is what happens in the DMC 2 novel. Does that make sense?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The HW and DW, in their natural state, are separate timelines/space-times. However, they would become the same timeline/space-time if Mundus successfully merged the two together, which is what happens in the DMC 2 novel. Does that make sense?
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Yeah.
Though it's worth mentioning that this could only work if both realms are considered L2-C, if the DW were to be proven as a 2-C realm, the fusion of it and the HW would therefore be 2-C as well, and the mention of alternate timelines would mean that it's talking about a bigger timeline that encapsulates space-times, ergo, cubic time. For now I agree, let's see if the supporters can keep their game up.
 
Palito266 said:
Yeah.
Though it's worth mentioning that this could only work if both realms are considered L2-C, if the DW were to be proven as a 2-C realm, the fusion of it and the HW would therefore be 2-C as well, and the mention of alternate timelines would mean that it's talking about a bigger timeline that encapsulates space-times, ergo, cubic time. For now I agree, let's see if the supporters can keep their game up.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think there's an issue with the idea that the combination of a 2-C realm and L2-C realm is 2-C, it's the idea that a parallel universe containing two distinct spacetimes doesn't meet our requirements for a true hypertimeline, and the very notion of it containing two distinct spacetimes is contradicted by the fact that in the universe they arrived at, the two worlds were already merged, so no hypertimeline is needed. Moreover, since it's explicit that the two worlds are intrinsically linked and have the same temporal orientation, it's still normal for an alternate universe to represent both worlds instead of just one.
 
SuperSonicTL said:
Sup ladies and gentlemen

As you know, we sophisticated gigachad DMC bros before hoes were ignored... Left to die on the road... Without any mercy... But you know what? We decided to came back with vengeance from the ashes of despair.

"B-B-BuT sOnIc HoW'S tHaT pOsSiBlE???"

You may ask? Foolishly? So lets start by answering your questions, shall we?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Origin of Reality​

The Underworld (or Demon World for that matter) is a home for Demons and the place where they usually reside at as we know there are only two main realms in the entire cosmology which are Human World and Demon World, the dualities of the reality, absolutely opposing one another no matter how you look at it.

But don't let this fool you into thinking that both realms are comparable to eachother. Demon World is the very product of the primordial universe which gave birth to Human World as one of its aspects in the the first place. Yeah that's right, the whole space-time continuum of the Human World is basically a part of Demon World before Pluto decided to be a lil bitch about it and yeet the thing out of the whole reality for stability's sake.
Click to expand...
5-D Demon World makes sense then, but it would rather be limited.
SuperSonicTL said:
So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

But this is just a tip of the iceberg.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
In order to qualify for a Low 1-C rating, the extra-dimensional axis will have to be manifested as infinite significant in size and or the lower-dimensional structures will have to be depicted as infinitesimal. Simply containing infinite-sized Low 2-C structures isn't enough to qualify as Low 1-C; it implies a compactified dimension nonetheless. As for the Demon World having its own temporal axis, if it isn't shown to be able to affect the human world then it can't qualify as a "hypertimeline"; as 2 temporal axes would require the space-time contained within the larger space to be affected by the time-flow of the larger structure.
SuperSonicTL said:
Realms beyond space and time​

This section covers regarding the special dimensions we encountered throughout the entire series. Lets start with the more obvious one. Helfilth's domain (as we like to call it for now) is also called "Nightmare space" where we fought his Nightmare versions of bosses and himself at last. Here the description of the RAID mode was interesting regarding her... Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike. Implying the realm where she resides at is a fifth dimensional plane of existence as that is the only description that goes with what we have here. Secondly, we have Mundus' palace or Marble Vault as some may call it is a very special place that has two infinite stuff stored within it and on top of that, we have two separate statements that says that Mundus and his palace by extension exists outside of the flow of time... While being within Underworld... And having his alternate versions throughout the multiverse. Now what this can be taken as the palace/dimension of Mundus is soo greater in comparison to other dimensions that it goes beyond the scope of your usual temporal axis (4D) which should be a backup support of 5D realms within Demon World which would bump the cosmology scaling soo far upto 7D.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Was the spirit explicitly stated to transcend the space-time of the Demon World? Also, with the new tiering system intact I'm unsure how we'd rate the statement "transcending space and time", as that is something rather implying qualification rather than quantification. As for existing outside the flow of time claim, the statement "diverged from the flow of time" does not imply that Mundus's domain transcends time itself. Even if it is explicitly stated to transcend the flow of time, I doubt it would give any clarity on any dimensional quantification.
SuperSonicTL said:
The Timeline​

This is very interesting part of the cosmology that we never noticed before till recently. The first realization came when Dante was teleported in the alternate timeline where Mundus won the war against Humans as those dumbasses betrayed Sparda who was helping him which led to Demon World totally consuming Human World as a whole. Now this is where the curiosity stood up... The timeline includes both Human and Demon World despite both worlds being totally separated from one another either via dimensional wall or literal space-time fabric. This and Demons couldn't even travel to Human World without any special means like Hell Gate and so on.

This can mean only one thing... There is another layer of spatial and temporal axis that covers the structure of Demon World itself. The spatial axis comes from Demon World itself being displaced on an axis where it doesn't collide with Human World which, may i remind, is absolutely out of its reach through either lore or gameplay as well as there being a space between these two realms. Whereas the temporal axis comes from obviously the overarching timeline that contains both worlds totally separated from one another within its storage. This would bump the scaling upto 9D for the scalable feats of Demon Gods in the verse.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
It could mean a Low Multiversal structure instead. And I have absolutely no idea where you even got 9-D from.
SuperSonicTL said:
That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads. And thus, we conclude the 10D range for beings comparable to Beastheads and beyond.
Click to expand...
The Many-Worlds Interpretation stems from the relationship between quantum mechanics and relation to our physical reality. Hence, it encompasses every quantum measurement and its core concept of it -- examples being wave functions, decoherence, branching universes precisely via quantum events, etc. The scans you have shown do not directly imply the MWI theory at all. Most logically, it implies multiple timelines that represent each possibility which can extend to countless up to infinite but not necessarily encompassing every quantum occurrence there is across an uncountable scope.
SuperSonicTL said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is the blog here for better view on the overall arguments so yeah... Have fun reading it!
Click to expand...
:unsure:
 
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Deagonx said:
Yeah, I don't think there's an issue with the idea that the combination of a 2-C realm and L2-C realm is 2-C, it's the idea that a parallel universe containing two distinct spacetimes doesn't meet our requirements for a true hypertimeline, and the very notion of it containing two distinct spacetimes is contradicted by the fact that in the universe they arrived at, the two worlds were already merged, so no hypertimeline is needed. Moreover, since it's explicit that the two worlds are intrinsically linked and have the same temporal orientation, it's still normal for an alternate universe to represent both worlds instead of just one.
Click to expand...
It's not the fact that it's a 'universe containing two distinct spacetimes'. It's the fact that it's a timeline containing two distinct space-times, which is vastly different.
(I'm going to talk about the scenario where DW is 2-C so I'm assuming it in this phrase): The fact that the merged worlds are 2-C makes multiversal travelling quite lousy, and is contradicted. Let's see, I'll give you an example:
Imagine there's two timelines in the DMC universe, the main timeline and the void mundus timeline. This is great, it follows what the novel has said thus far and doesn't generate any lousy headaches that the writers did not intend, 2 big-ass timelines that have space-times in them. However, if we were to go by your logic, there would actually be more than two timelines (Main Timeline, Main Timeline part of DW 1, Main Timeline part of DW 2, Void Mundus Timeline, Void Mundus Timeline part of DW 1, Void Mundus Timeline part of DW 2). This isn't really hinted at in the novel, that's why I'm so iffy in regards to this idea.
 
Palito266 said:
However, if we were to go by your logic, there would actually be more than two timelines
Click to expand...
So I think our wires are getting crossed in terms of a "timeline" and a "temporal axis." I'll try to demonstrate this visually.

63gs2p2.png


So, here are two 2-D squares. They are not connected. They could be 3-D cubes and even expand infinitely away from the space in between them. We could consider them two distinct 3-A spaces.

Now, do they have their own spatial axes? Not really. If they are considered to be in the same cosmology, there's no need for there to be a 4th spatial axis, so the cosmology ultimately only has 3 spatial dimensions.

Let's add time. If John lives in Cube 1 and Jack lives in Cube 2, if John visits Cube 2 once a year and finds that Jack has aged a year each time, then it's natural to expect that if John travels to a parallel universe where he died at birth and he travels to Cube 2, he would find a version of Jack who doesn't even know him. Because the same way that these 3-A spaces are separate but share spatial axes, we would also expect them to share a temporal axis.

If we travel to a history of Cube 1 where at some point it was merged with Cube 2, this would not be suggestive of an orthogonal temporal axis. It doesn't matter that they're spatially separate. If we recognize that the two share temporal direction (they share the same orientation of future and past) then there's only one temporal axis involved..
 
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Deagonx said:
So I think our wires are getting crossed in terms of a "timeline" and a "temporal axis." I'll try to demonstrate this visually.

63gs2p2.png


So, here are two 2-D squares. They are not connected. They could be 3-D cubes and even expand infinitely away from the space in between them. We could consider them two distinct 3-A spaces.

Now, do they have their own spatial axes? Not really. If they are considered to be in the same cosmology, there's no need for there to be a 4th spatial axis, so the cosmology ultimately only has 3 spatial dimensions.

Let's add time. If John lives in Cube 1 and Jack lives in Cube 2, if John visits Cube 2 once a year and finds that Jack has aged a year each time, then it's natural to expect that if John travels to a parallel universe where he died at birth and he travels to Cube 2, he would find a version of Jack who doesn't even know him. Because the same way that these 3-A spaces are separate but share spatial axes, we would also expect them to share a temporal axis.

If we travel to a history of Cube 1 where at some point it was merged with Cube 2, this would not be suggestive of an orthogonal temporal axis. It doesn't matter that they're spatially separate. If we recognize that the two share temporal direction (they share the same orientation of future and past) then there's only one temporal axis involved..
Click to expand...
Yeah, but in this scenario you're assuming the cubes are 3-D and are contained within a singular timeline. In DMC, you have two timelines (or more in the previous example) that are being called a singular one, hence it's implying a higher timeline that contains the minor timelines.
 
Palito266 said:
Yeah, but in this scenario you're assuming the cubes are 3-D and are contained within a singular timeline. In DMC, you have two timelines (or more in the previous example) that are being called a singular one, hence it's implying a higher timeline that contains the minor timelines.
Click to expand...
If we agree that the cubes -- despite being separate spacetimes -- do not truly have their own distinct independent spatial dimensions, then it follows further that they share a temporal axis as well, what we are calling a "timeline" is instantiated across multiple distinct spacetimes. This is why travelling to Cube 2 doesn't result in the arrival at some random era or random version of Cube 2 every single time, because the two histories are linked. The Jack that John goes to visit is the same one each time, and they experience temporal change in a similar fashion.

So if John is in Timeline A, and travels to Timeline B, where Cube 1 and 2 merge, does that mean there is a "higher temporal axis?" or is that just the natural outcome of them having a shared temporal axis despite their physical separation? If you're saying a comparable cube-esque scenario would be if Cube 1 and Cube 2 have "their own minor timelines" within a larger timeline, I would ask what that even means or how we could prove it, since it doesn't follow naturally from them being separated.
 
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To step back for a moment, this whole argument is contingent on the DW embedding multiple low 2-C realms within itself. Which realms are these supposed to be? Because the only ones listed in the OP are starry backgrounds (not universal in size, no independent flow of time), an infinite space (no established connection to the DW), and a vague mention of "realms" (no established size or spatio-temporal independence). Only one of these is low 2-C, and it's not even in the DW. So let's at least try to get this cleared up before splitting hairs over an argument so heavily reliant on this point.
 
you don't get hyper-timelines by merging 2 separate timelines like 1+1.

That's like saying a multiverse is a hyper-timeline.
there is no need for a higher timeline for 2 separate universes to merge into one timeline

+ did we somehow forget that Demon World and Human World were once a single timeline/universe that was split into 2 cause of some light or chaos something
 
GarrixianXD said:
the extra-dimensional axis will have to be manifested as infinite and the lower-dimensional structures will have to be depicted as infinitesimal
Click to expand...
Just a minor nitpicking but you don't need the extradimensional axis to be infinite, as long as it is significantly large in size such as universal-sized then the extra axis is tierable, infinite is just more common. Also you don't need both the extra axis to be large and the lower structure to be infinitesimal, either one of the two is enough
 
I've already said in the past I agree with at least low 1-C DMC due to timeline => DW > HW (4D) not factoring other realms tho, so I believe 5D (at minimum) for DMC makes sense for the time being. Also keep the decorum stylish peeps!
 
Vietthai96 said:
Just a minor nitpicking but you don't need the extradimensional axis to be infinite, as long as it is significantly large in size such as universal-sized then the extra axis is tierable, infinite is just more common. Also you don't need both the extra axis to be large and the lower structure to be infinitesimal, either one of the two is enough
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's true. My bad.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Just a minor nitpicking but you don't need the extradimensional axis to be infinite, as long as it is significantly large in size such as universal-sized then the extra axis is tierable, infinite is just more common. Also you don't need both the extra axis to be large and the lower structure to be infinitesimal, either one of the two is enough
Click to expand...
Since there are not many verses on the wiki that explain this term mathematically in general, it is basically not enough alone. Generally, more is requested, but I think this is not important in this thread.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Since there are not many verses on the wiki that explain this term mathematically in general, it is basically not enough alone. Generally, more is requested, but I think this is not important in this thread.
Click to expand...
We not follow 1:1 with mathematical term so if a verse provide enough contexts that a structure is infinitesimal or rather being a subset of a higher structure then it is enough
 
Vietthai96 said:
We not follow 1:1 with mathematical term so if a verse provide enough contexts that a structure is infinitesimal or rather being a subset of a higher structure then it is enough
Click to expand...
It would be sufficient in such a case, but the "infinitesimal piece" term you said in the previous quote would not be enough alone
 
Deagonx said:
. The Human World and Demon World are spatiotemporally independent, but when travelling to a parallel universe with a different history, both worlds are different (having been merged at this point).
Click to expand...
No. The only time where time travel would give you two temporal axis is if you go to previous or future iterations of the multiverse while the original is unchanged. Just going to a parallel history isn't enough on its own.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
No. The only time where time travel would give you two temporal axis is if you go to previous or future iterations of the multiverse while the original is unchanged. Just going to a parallel history isn't enough on its own.
Click to expand...
So you agree with low 1-C?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
No. The only time where time travel would give you two temporal axis is if you go to previous or future iterations of the multiverse while the original is unchanged. Just going to a parallel history isn't enough on its own.
Click to expand...
Gotcha.

Minor note, but I believe it wasn't time travel per se, they were just went directly to a parallel universe.

So, generally speaking, the fact that a "timeline" or parallel universe contains two distinct universes with their own "timelines" doesn't mean there is another axis?
 
Hey, there is one thing that I find it a little weird doesn't seem to be mentioned here. What about DMC3's Nirvana dimensions? One of them contains its own space-time continuum, and it is a dimension inside the Demon World.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Hey, there is one thing that I find it a little weird doesn't seem to be mentioned here. What about DMC3's Nirvana dimensions? One of them contains its own space-time continuum, and it is a dimension inside the Demon World.
Click to expand...
We may have discussed this previously, but in case we haven't, do you have scans of this? Is there any evidence of these realms being universal in size?
 
Random-Helper323 said:
We might have. The location is called the Infinity Nirvana, and it is escaped from using an item symbolizing the space-time continuum. Notably the dimension has a clearly disruptive time flow that loops back on itself until that item is acquired.
Click to expand...
...Yeah this is all way too weak as far as low 2-C evidence is concerned. It having a unique flow of time isn't enough to establish it as a separate space-time, especially since the DW already has a warped flow of time that could accommodate something like that.
BestMGQScalerEver said:
The "Infinity" seems to be referring to it's an endless time loop. Also just going on the name alone is too vague.
Click to expand...
This is also true.
 
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