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Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

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That said, can you ask Gilver to make his own points as to why the DW is low 1-C instead of responding directly to whatever I post next? So we can avoid getting into yet another back and forth?
 
That said, can you ask Gilver to make his own points as to why the DW is low 1-C instead of responding directly to whatever I post next? So we can avoid getting into yet another back and forth?
You shouldn't worry on that front. If at all possible, both posts should be as neutral to each other as possible and I'll make that clear. And do be aware, neither of you should respond to each other or staff after the post, unless maybe if they ask for clarification, and even then it'd be clarifying your own stances.

This goes for everyone else. After Fujiwara and Gilver post their stances, it should be left solely to staff evaluation. There shouldn't be anyone trying to needle staff after they've made their viewpoint clear.
 
Also, our universe page very clearly outlines that possessing a different flow of time isn't proof of being a different space-time continuum:
"A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up."
The key phrase was "Needing an appropriate size to back it up." Obviously, a planet sized pocket reality that happens to have a different flow of time is not enough. But if combination of it being 3-A sized at minimum (Which outside of the flow of time arguments, the 9 dimensions are High 3-A sized on a spatial scale) which just need to put those two together and they are indeed universes.
The hypertimeline part makes no sense - not only does it rely on low 2-C realms being a subset of the DW, which is untrue. It also claims that the DW causing the collapse of the timeline means it has to treat 4-dimensional structures as 'snapshots', much like a 4D space does to 3D space, but this is missing out on how the realms were merged at this point. There were no low 2-C "subsets" of the DW, because again, the basis of the feat was that everything was merged into a single space. So it'd just be a single above baseline low 2-C or 2-C space, and its subsequent collapse would just be nothing more than a typical universe destruction. Now, if the realms weren't merged, it'd be a different story entirely, but that is clearly not the case.
It's referring to the fact that time manipulation powers works on characters with Immeasurable speed; which requires for time manipulation to work on an extradimensional level as Immeasurable speed characters are immune to the manipulation of linear time by default (Or immune to time slowing down, stopping, ect).
 
The key phrase was "Needing an appropriate size to back it up." Obviously, a planet sized pocket reality that happens to have a different flow of time is not enough. But if combination of it being 3-A sized at minimum (Which outside of the flow of time arguments, the 9 dimensions are High 3-A sized on a spatial scale) which just need to put those two together and they are indeed universes.

It's referring to the fact that time manipulation powers works on characters with Immeasurable speed; which requires for time manipulation to work on an extradimensional level as Immeasurable speed characters are immune to the manipulation of linear time by default (Or immune to time slowing down, stopping, ect).
1. I think you're misreading that part - it's saying that nonlinear flows of time can exist in a single universe, so a place having a separate flow of time doesn't mean it's an entirely new space-time. It could just be an extension of a single space-time, like the DW.
2. Which part of my response is this supposed to be replying to? Because I do not see how it correlates with speed at all.

also it may take until tomorrow to finish my full response
 
1. I think you're misreading that part - it's saying that nonlinear flows of time can exist in a single universe, so a place having a separate flow of time doesn't mean it's an entirely new space-time. It could just be an extension of a single space-time, like the DW
I think i need to jump in about this part honestly, having different, non-linear flow of time mean having completely different time direction, which is different, separate time dimension/axis, which mean side from normal time axis that we all default to exist in a normal 3 spatial + 1 temporal dimension model, we also have another +1 different temporal dimension; and lastly an overarching timeline encompass them all, that the idea

It should be noted that i speak for general case, not DMC specifically
 
I think i need to jump in about this part honestly, having different, non-linear flow of time mean having completely different time direction, which is different, separate time dimension/axis, which mean side from normal time axis that we all default to exist in a normal 3 spatial + 1 temporal dimension model, we also have another +1 different temporal dimension; and lastly an overarching timeline encompass them all, that the idea

It should be noted that i speak for general case, not DMC specifically
You can think that all you want but that's not what the standards say. I don't even fully agree with what the universe page says, but it DOES say that different flows of time =\= different universes, which we have to abide by.
 
So, I've read the blog. Haven't done much apart from skimming the first few pages of this thread (Not the whole thing, obviously), so, forgive me if I missed something.

But, on the whole: I'll readily admit that, on a first reading, I did take the interpretation that the Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World. Having read it again, though, I don't really find this interpretation very substantiated anymore. The inference itself comes from the verbiage which the text uses to describe the two worlds, "endless darkness" and "ray of light." But I don't think there is really anything to concretely say that the "ray of light" is minuscule to the darkness.

Granted I don't really agree with Deagon's reading of the text, mind you, but even then I don't think that matters too much, seeing as our standards for "Bigger than Tier 2 = Low 1-C" recently changed. I find it doubtful that this would qualify on its own.
 
So, I've read the blog. Haven't done much apart from skimming the first few pages of this thread (Not the whole thing, obviously), so, forgive me if I missed something.

But, on the whole: I'll readily admit that, on a first reading, I did take the interpretation that the Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World. Having read it again, though, I don't really find this interpretation very substantiated anymore. The inference itself comes from the verbiage which the text uses to describe the two worlds, "endless darkness" and "ray of light." But I don't think there is really anything to concretely say that the "ray of light" is minuscule to the darkness.

Granted I don't really agree with Deagon's reading of the text, mind you, but even then I don't think that matters too much, seeing as our standards for "Bigger than Tier 2 = Low 1-C" recently changed. I find it doubtful that this would qualify on its own.
Gil's still a bit sick but the others asked me to tell you (and the rest of the thread) that the summary blog and arguments they're posting won't hinge on the basis of the Demon World's relative size anymore.
 
Gil's still a bit sick but the others asked me to tell you (and the rest of the thread) that the summary blog
I don't understand why another summary blog is being posted? The last summary blog was posted like, two days ago. If they are abandoning the arguments used as the current basis for the tiering, then this should pass with the current vote. It is not at all practical after 2 months/6 pages of arguing and 11~ staff votes for the opposition present an entirely new argument and ask everyone to come and re-evaluate, and ask Fuji to argue against the new arguments, and start this whole thing over again from the very top. They should be asked to do so in a separate CRT attempting to re-upgrade, rather than delay this for even longer.
 
I don't understand why another summary blog is being posted? The last summary blog was posted like, two days ago. If they are abandoning the arguments used as the current basis for the tiering, then this should pass with the current vote. It is not at all practical after 2 months/6 pages of arguing and 11~ staff votes for the opposition present an entirely new argument and ask everyone to come and re-evaluate, and ask Fuji to argue against the new arguments, and start this whole thing over again from the very top. They should be asked to do so in a separate CRT attempting to re-upgrade, rather than delay this for even longer.
And enough back-and-forth, staff vote changes and the like happened that we've gotten here, with staff split between agree, disagree and neutrality. The entire point is that when Fuji and Gil post their threads, I can call in all the neutral staff for it that don't want to deal with 600 messages and we can get a decisive decision on it. Cause we're not really passing a thread on a 4-6-1 vote spread.

Unless that in the event this is closed, you want them to repost a upgrade thread immediately?
 
There is 0 reason to post a re-upgrade thread, I can't believe this is even up for discussion. We do not need new summary posts and blogs for every disagreement. Just accept the votes regardless of where they end up and be done with it, god. This degree of stonewalling is absurd coming from a thread mod.
 
The entire point is that when Fuji and Gil post their threads, I can call in all the neutral staff for it that don't want to deal with 600 messages and we can get a decisive decision on it.
That literally already happened on Sunday, when Gilver posted his summary blog, KLOL called in the staff, and you said it wasn't prudent to conclude the thread given the opposition had just posted a summary blog for staff to evaluate.

Staff evaluated, and the end result was a 6-4 vote in favor of the changes, and now it's "stop the presses, a new summary blog with different arguments will come eventually, and staff can evaluate that." That's pretty insane.
 
There is 0 reason to post a re-upgrade thread, I can't believe this is even up for discussion. We do not need new summary posts and blogs for every disagreement. Just accept the votes regardless of where they end up and be done with it, god. This degree of stonewalling is absurd coming from a thread mod.
Their current stance.... doesn't involve your downgrade though. That's the point. They're not and won't be arguing the "Ray of Light" aspect. This is why I suggested that point, since the original argument has veered so off course and no one wants to go through it for that many pages, it can either be summarized here (seriously, even Ultima didn't address the higher temporal dimension aspect) or it can be its own thread since it involves logic this OP doesn't cover.

Since as far as the "Ray is infinitely smaller than DW" thing goes, they're more or less done arguing that.
 
Their current stance.... doesn't involve your downgrade though. That's the point. They're not and won't be arguing the "Ray of Light" aspect. This is why I suggested that point, since the original argument has veered so off course and no one wants to go through it for that many pages, it can either be summarized here (seriously, even Ultima didn't address the higher temporal dimension aspect) or it can be its own thread since it involves logic this OP doesn't cover.

Since as far as the "Ray is infinitely smaller than DW" thing goes, they're more or less done arguing that.
Except, again, multiple people have read the blog and still agreed with the OP, including Ultima. You can't just keep delaying the outcome of this thread indefinitely because it isn't going your way - regardless of what arguments DMC supporters have presented, a majority of staff has disagreed with them.

The goalpost moving and stonewalling is insane. I'm tempted to just apply the downgrades as soon as I'm able.
 
Then why would it be posted here?
Exactly why I posed that question to you. They can either summarize it here now and not have to make a thread immediately after this one is closed or just do that. Frankly, I'm not against it being moved to an entirely different thread since a mix-and-match of arguments helps no one, but ultimately that's up to how Gilver wants to deal with this.
 
Except, again, multiple people have read the blog and still agreed with the OP, including Ultima. You can't just keep delaying the outcome of this thread indefinitely because it isn't going your way - regardless of what arguments DMC supporters have presented, a majority of staff has disagreed with them.

The goalpost moving and stonewalling is insane. I'm tempted to just apply the downgrades as soon as I'm able.
Ultima didn't address the temporal dimension argument, just that the Demon World being that much bigger is no longer up to snuff for the standards, which is fair. That's my point. Your OP has that many votes for it....for a stance that's no longer something being defended by the opposition.
 
Gilver doesn't really get to make those decisions. It should be handled in a separate thread if they -- after months and pages of arguing -- are now attempting to redesign their entire argument from the ground up.
 
Your OP has that many votes for it....for a stance that's no longer something being defended by the opposition.
But it's the stance these profiles are based on. If it's being abandoned by verse supporters and outvoted by staff, then Fuji should apply this.
 
Ultima didn't address the temporal dimension argument, just that the Demon World being that much bigger is no longer up to snuff for the standards, which is fair. That's my point. Your OP has that many votes for it....for a stance that's no longer something being defended by the opposition.
He doesn't need to address anything. He read the blog. He disagreed with it. If you cannot accept that, then that's not my problem.

Should I discredit all the disagreements too, as they also didn't read the blog? In that case, I'd still have staff majority on my side.
 
I'm not opposed to the basic concept of responding to a downgrade thread with alternative reasoning to support a tier, but that should happen at the very beginning, not used as a hail Mary after 100s of comments. It'll be easier for everyone to evaluate if it's separate, easier to persuade staff to evaluate, and will allow the deserved application of a successful (and extremely arduous) CRT on Fujis part.
 
It should be resolved now. The opposition is no longer supporting the reasoning used for the profiles, and is preparing new reasoning that will be handled in a different thread. The vote of the existing arguments is in Fujis favor.
Can we close this now?
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara It seems your revisions have been accepted, then.
 
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