2A (Possibly L1C) Devil May Cry - A relevant closer to a CRT

[Agnaa]

That is blatantly wrong since, for example, Qawsed disagreed with the Low 1C, but you ignored that and only put it up as "agree with 2A"

Oh god ******* damnit. Let's redo the votecount then.

2-A or Low 1-C: Planck69 (1, 2), Elizhaa

2-A, possibly Low 1-C: UchihaSlayer96

2-A, no comment on Low 1-C: Emirp sumitpo

At least 2-B, possibly Low 1-C: DarkDragonMedeus

At least 2-B, likely 2-A: Firestorm808

Prefers 2-C, could compromise with 2-A, but absolutely not Low 1-C: Qawsedf234 (1, 2)

Neutral on 2-A, disagrees with Low 1-C: LordGriffin1000

2-C: Deagonx, Sir_Ovens

Unclear: Theglassman12 ("The upgrades seem fine" when the OP presented two different tiers, but was less confident in one), Ultima_Reality ("If we assume it's 4-D, it's Low 2-C; if we assume it's 5-D it's Low 1-C; a situation where it's 4-D is extremely plausible)

Agree: @Planck69 (Agrees with 2A, fine with L1C rating), @DarkDragonMedeus (2B, possibly L1C), @Theglassman12 (Agrees with 2A), @Elizhaa (Agrees with 2A, fine with L1C rating), @Qawsedf234 (Agrees with 2A), @UchihaSlayer96 (Agrees with 2A and a possible rating on L1C), @Emirp sumitpo (Agress with 2A), @LordGriffin1000 (Agree with 2A), @Firestorm808 (likely 2A)

Disagree: @Deagonx, @Sir_Ovens

Neutral:

Votes accurately represented: 6 (Planck69, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens)

Arguable votes: 3 (Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, Ultima_Reality)

Misrepresented votes: 3 (Qawsedf234, LordGriffin1000, Firestorm808)

When tallying these up, broken down by tiers, we get:

• Low 1-C, 4-3-5
  • Agree: Planck69, Elizhaa,
  • Possibly: UchihaSlayer96, DarkDragonMedeus
  • No Comment: Emirp sumitpo
  • Unclear: Theglassman12, Ultima_Reality
  • Disagree: Firestorm808, Qawsedf234, LordGriffin1000, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens
• 2-A, 7-1-4
  • Agree: Planck69, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Emirp sumitpo
  • Likely: Firestorm808
  • Potential compromise: Qawsedf234
  • Unclear (but probably agree): Theglassman12
  • Neutral: LordGriffin1000
  • Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens, Ultima_Reality
• 2-B, 2-2-8
  • Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Firestorm808
  • Unclear: Qawsedf234, LordGriffin1000
  • Disagree: Planck69, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Emirp sumitpo, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens, Theglassman12, Ultima_Reality
• 2-C, 3-1-8
  • Agree: Qawsedf234, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens
  • Unclear: LordGriffin1000
  • Disagree: Planck69, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Firestorm808, Theglassman12, Ultima_Reality

If I were to mandate a compromise right this second, I think from those votes just 2-A would make the most sense. But really, this is the sort of case where we'd try to get more staff discussion, until people decide to come to a compromise.

Updated Votes​

I'd like to preserve the previous part of this post, so an updated vote tally will be kept below.

2-A or Low 1-C: Planck69 (1, 2), Elizhaa

2-A, possibly Low 1-C: UchihaSlayer96

2-A, no comment/neutral on Low 1-C: Emirp sumitpo, Theglassman12

At least 2-B, possibly Low 1-C: DarkDragonMedeus

At least 2-B, likely 2-A: Firestorm808

Prefers 2-C, could compromise with 2-A, but absolutely not Low 1-C: Qawsedf234 (1, 2)

Neutral on 2-A, disagrees with Low 1-C: LordGriffin1000

2-C: Deagonx, Sir_Ovens

Unclear: Ultima_Reality ("If we assume it's 4-D, it's Low 2-C; if we assume it's 5-D it's Low 1-C; a situation where it's 4-D is extremely plausible)

• Low 1-C, 4-3-5
  • Agree: Planck69, Elizhaa,
  • Possibly: UchihaSlayer96, DarkDragonMedeus
  • No Comment/Neutral: Emirp sumitpo, Theglassman12
  • Unclear: Ultima_Reality
  • Disagree: Firestorm808, Qawsedf234, LordGriffin1000, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens
• 2-A, 7-1-4
  • Agree: Planck69, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Emirp sumitpo, Theglassman12
  • Likely: Firestorm808
  • Potential compromise: Qawsedf234
  • Neutral: LordGriffin1000
  • Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens, Ultima_Reality
• 2-B, 2-2-8
  • Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Firestorm808
  • Unclear: Qawsedf234, LordGriffin1000
  • Disagree: Planck69, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Emirp sumitpo, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens, Theglassman12, Ultima_Reality
• 2-C, 3-1-8
  • Agree: Qawsedf234, Deagonx, Sir_Ovens
  • Unclear: LordGriffin1000
  • Disagree: Planck69, Elizhaa, UchihaSlayer96, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Firestorm808, Theglassman12, Ultima_Reality

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I can't tell if you are completely ignoring the opposition that intentionally disagrees with the upgrade.

At minimum that would be a 4 vs 3 with a large majority that is "neutral." Oh, wait a minute LordGriffin is also against the Low 1C, as mentioned here, and later again reinforced here.'

So yeah... About this being a 4 to 1... It truly is not...

Okay soo lemme update it from scratch again for you & everyone who is looking here:

Agreements in L1C: Planck, Glass (the upgrade seems fine part which I didn't count), DDM, UchihaSlayer., Deagon (agrees with L1C mind you that i didn't count)

Disagreements in L1C: LordGriffon, Qaw, Oven

If it came to this, we can tag the mods and let them reinstate their opinion over the matter I feel like.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

And now we got sonic in rvt .

 

[Agnaa]

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @UchihaSlayer96 @Deagonx @Sir_Ovens @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808

Please try to help this thread come to a conclusion. From the vote tallies I posted here, every suggested tier faces a lot of opposition, with the best being 2-A with 7 in support, and 4 in opposition.

This thread has already been applied for 2-A, possibly Low 1-C, which seems like a bad implementation of the votes given.

Help resolving this issue (preferably through compromise rather than another 7 pages of debate) would be appreciated.

But if we are to debate, @DontTalkDT was pinged back here since this runs into a weird case of the Tier 2 standards, and might also be able to help.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @UchihaSlayer96 @Deagonx @Sir_Ovens @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808

Please try to help this thread come to a conclusion. From the vote tallies I posted here, every suggested tier faces a lot of opposition, with the best being 2-A with 7 in support, and 4 in opposition.

This thread has already been applied for 2-A, possibly Low 1-C, which seems like a bad implementation of the votes given.

Help resolving this issue (preferably through compromise rather than another 7 pages of debate) would be appreciated.

But if we are to debate, @DontTalkDT was pinged back here since this runs into a weird case of the Tier 2 standards, and might also be able to help.

We still need to conclude the container thread to set precedent here.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Okay soo after taking another look back into the thread, these are the votes soo far:

Planck: Agrees with 2A and fine with L1C

Glass: Upgrade seems fine (implying he is fine with both tiers?)

Elizhaa: Share Planck's view

DDM: Agrees with 2B, disgaree (Nothing indicates 2A according to him) & agrees with L1C

Qaw: As a compromise, 2A is fine & seems to disagree with L1C to his knowledge

UchihaSlayer: Agrees with 2A and leans to L1C

Ultima: Either remain 2C or would be L1C

Emirp: Agrees with 2A and indefinitely neutral about L1C

LordGriffon: Neutral with 2A and disagree with L1C

Quite diverse revision thread ngl.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Okay soo after taking another look back into the thread, these are the votes soo far:

Planck: Agrees with 2A and fine with L1C

Glass: Upgrade seems fine (implying he is fine with both tiers?)

Elizhaa: Share Planck's view

DDM: Agrees with 2B, disgaree (Nothing indicates 2A according to him) & agrees with L1C

Qaw: As a compromise, 2A is fine & seems to disagree with L1C to his knowledge

UchihaSlayer: Agrees with 2A and leans to L1C

Ultima: Either remain 2C or would be 5D

Emirp: Agrees with 2A and indefinitely neutral about L1C

LordGriffon: Neutral with 2A and disagree with L1C

Quite diverse revision thread ngl.

So in short 4 people agreed with the revision itself which outright defeats the other views and their votes on numbers. Yeah, that's not manipulation of votes. That's just the results of the votes themselves. As I stated above keeping this thread open and not applying these clear results for any reason is nothing less then an exercise in silliness.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Okay soo after taking another look back into the thread, these are the votes soo far:

Planck: Agrees with 2A and fine with L1C

Glass: Upgrade seems fine (implying he is fine with both tiers?)

Elizhaa: Share Planck's view

DDM: Agrees with 2B, disgaree (Nothing indicates 2A according to him) & agrees with L1C

Qaw: As a compromise, 2A is fine & seems to disagree with L1C to his knowledge

UchihaSlayer: Agrees with 2A and leans to L1C

Ultima: Either remain 2C or would be L1C

Emirp: Agrees with 2A and indefinitely neutral about L1C

LordGriffon: Neutral with 2A and disagree with L1C

Quite diverse revision thread ngl.

To put the tally into perspective:

2-A​

Agree (5): Planck (admin), Glass (mod), Elizhaa (admin), Qaw (leans to) (admin), UchihaSlayer (mod), Emirp (mod)

Neutral (1): LordGriffon (admin)

Disagree (3): Ovens(admin), Deagon (mod), DDM (admin & super mod)

Low 1-C​

Agree (4): Planck (admin), Elizhaa (admin), DDM (admin & super mod), UchihaSlayer (mod)

Neutral (mostly inconclusive) (3): Emirp (mod), Ultima (admin), Glass (mods)

Disagree (4): Qaw (admin), LordGriffin (admin), Deagon (mod), Ovens (mods)

 

[Random-Helper323]

It seems as if 2-A at very least is clearly supported.

Leaving such a thread for ages with no changes just brings about its own trouble. In the past threads have been accepted and then not applied; no edits made to the pages, and the result is everyone's confused later about what the heck to do.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

It seems as if 2-A at very least is clearly supported.

Leaving such a thread for ages with no changes just brings about its own trouble. In the past threads have been accepted and then not applied; no edits made to the pages, and the result is everyone's confused later about what the heck to do.

From the given thread, those who support 2A typically don't align with L1C and vice versa. However, the overall stance seems to lean more in favor of agreements for either tiers rather than disagreements. In any case, I'll leave it to them to conclude this thread as they see fit. I just want it conclude one way or another.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Anyways, I’ve updated the main post to include the current votes in proper manner as well, so there’s no confusion to whoever reading it. Apologies if there was any misunderstanding—it was never my intention to manipulate or misrepresent the votes. In fact, I didn’t label some supportive votes either as this is quite a complicated matter which I was new to back then. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not entirely sold on Tier one, and I mentioned I am more fine with a "Possibly" rating for that. It's just that the statements in which "Infinite" are used seemed to lean towards a possibly Tier 1 than a 2-A. But "Countless worlds" still sounded like 2-B minimum.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm not entirely sold on Tier one, and I mentioned I am more fine with a "Possibly" rating for that. It's just that the statements in which "Infinite" are used seemed to lean towards a possibly Tier 1 than a 2-A. But "Countless worlds" still sounded like 2-B minimum.

To clarify, I didn’t reference any specific "countless worlds" scan (I’ll double-check if there’s one, probably went by from my views) but I only meant it figuratively given there seems to be alot of dimensions we were introduced to throughout the franchise (maybe reach into 100s by now if we start counting). So, we should probably set that aside for now.

 

[SeijiSetto]

As for Tier 1, there’s also the context where a space-time continuum is depicted as just a ray/line of light within an infinite surrounding space. From a neutral perspective, doesn’t that suggest a dimensional level of difference?

is this not the same argument for Low 1-C that was already rejected
what's different?
i don't think it's a thing where you can "settle" for 2-A, it's either Low 1-C or it's not.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah the fact of the matter still stands. You can't claim a tier through imaginary size. You cannot speculate how large an area is with 0 supporting feats or statements. The statements that do exist, when taken at face value mean basically nothing. This has been a backbreaking exercise in squeezing as much juice out from the proverbial lemon as possible and trying to fill an ocean.

 

[Unoriginal777]

To clarify, I didn’t reference any specific "countless worlds" scan (I’ll double-check if there’s one, probably went by from my views) but I only meant it figuratively given there seems to be alot of dimensions we were introduced to throughout the franchise (maybe reach into 100s by now if we start counting). So, we should probably set that aside for now.

As for Tier 1, there’s also the context where a space-time continuum is depicted as just a ray/line of light within an infinite surrounding space. From a neutral perspective, doesn’t that suggest a dimensional level of difference? What’s your take on it? Wouldn't it also accomplish 2A rating by virtue in case we need to draw a line from here?

On countless Worlds I would like to add that the fact that there are scans which assert there are infinite amounts of demons (implied infinite per every archetype also) would prove infinite worlds outright as a consequence (specifically in conjunction with the scans that assert there are multiple realms). This is because you either need A) all of your infinite objects in one place Or B) all of your infinite objects spread out across an infinite number of spaces. DMC follows the latter because it does not confirm that all demons exist in one specific infinite-sized dimension in the Demon World. In fact, the series makes it very clear there multiple places the demons reside in. Therefore, we would automatically assume there needs to be an infinite number of independent dimensions in the DW to house all these demons.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

is this not the same argument for Low 1-C that was already rejected
what's different?
i don't think it's a thing where you can "settle" for 2-A, it's either Low 1-C or it's not.

Yeah the fact of the matter still stands. You can't claim a tier through imaginary size. You cannot speculate how large an area is with 0 supporting feats or statements. The statements that do exist, when taken at face value mean basically nothing. This has been a backbreaking exercise in squeezing as much juice out from the proverbial lemon as possible and trying to fill an ocean.

I believe there’s something we’re overlooking here. Honestly, I don’t care about what was discussed in the previous thread, our focus should remain on the context and reasoning I’m presenting right now.

It’s widely accepted fact that a structure containing multiple separated universes would inherently operate on a 5D axis, even if it’s deemed "insignificant," as the wiki suggests. My argument is that the superspace of these separated worlds, which has been described as infinite as a "container," plays a significant role in this process. This makes it a legitimate 5D structure to scale from due to being mentioned as infinite as a whole then from a line segment standpoint if Demon World is a line in this context. You need the ability to understand what "infinite" is being referred to as here.

To support this, I introduced the concept of the ray or line of light to demonstrate the dimensional differences within the structure. Consider this: you have a space-time continuum, an uncountable infinite structure, treated as a 2D object within a 3D infinite structure. Is that so hard to grasp? Doesn’t this logic imply that there must be enough capacity to contain a potentially infinite number of universes? How can a tiering system classify something as a 5D structure if it lacks the basic capacity to even accommodate a 2A-level structure?

If that’s still unclear, let me offer some examples to support it. The Demon World contains a palace that exists outside of time (the kanji says separate then divergence here mind you), with his King also existing outside of time from an existential standpoint within the same castle to support that notion & has the capacity to contain an infinite sized structure within its scope alone due to castle in itself containing an infinitely expending universe or an infinitely spreading darkness while the castle still being located within a mere section of Demon World itself which was collapsed after the battle with Mundus during DMC1 but Demon World still exists after that, a clear sign of a 5D structure standing on its own that is a subset of Demon World that was stated to be infinite again on its own as a subset. You wanna still make it sound like it isn't even 2A at bare minimum? Additionally, there’s a Demon called Helfilth, who is the source of all nightmares, was stated to wander "beyond" time and space while blatantly inside Demon World (as we can see Dante going through his dimension in PoC storyline) due to the metaphysical nature of the structure which is supported by Sargassos who exists within the recesses of nightmares are stated to be non-existent, transcendent being that has to revert to a physical one to even interact with you which on its own wouldn't mean much but when you combine both scans into one, you'll see a sort of consistency that alludes to transcending space and time which is only possible due to the properties of 5D structure accommodating it then some sort of "flowery language" that appears to be consistent altogether throughout this whole circus.

Every piece of evidence here clearly points to it being either 2A or Low 1C. I’m not here to argue for the sake of arguing, I’m presenting genuine cases that at least hint at it making sense to classify it within either tier. The idea of having no middle ground between Low 2C and Low 1C is some of the most absurd logic I’ve encountered when it comes to tiering systems altogether.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

The only reason I’m bringing this up now is that I wanted to wait for a few more revisions to address the evidence I’ve presented here in detail why and what is the context here for all this. However, given how drawn-out & downright exhausting this debate has become, I have no choice but to lay it all out now.

 

[Unoriginal777]

In any case, considering the issue at hand and the growing impasse on this thread (despite the clear advantage in votes for the op) perhaps it would be constructive to give some attention to the Infinite Multiversal Space Container thread and the logic being argued there. Afterall, depending on the resulting conclusion the matter of DMC 2-A would be simplified quite greatly. Again just throwing that out there.

 

[Agnaa]

To put the tally into perspective:

2-A​

Agree (5): Planck (admin), Glass (mod), Elizhaa (admin), Qaw (leans to) (admin), UchihaSlayer (mod), Emirp (mod)

Neutral (1): LordGriffon (admin)

Disagree (3): Ovens(admin), Deagon (mod), DDM (admin & super mod)

Low 1-C​

Agree (5): Planck (admin), Glass (mod), Elizhaa (admin), DDM (admin & super mod), UchihaSlayer (mod)

Neutral (mostly inconclusive) (3): Emirp (mod), Ultima (admin), Deagon (mod) (acknowledges L1C but relies on Ultima's previous reply in the previous cosmology CRT that he rejected back then but recently stated that it could be L1C however he also says it can also remain 2C depending on the context of the structure which he admitted to didn't read through yet)

Disagree (2): Qaw (admin), LordGriffin (admin)

This is still an incorrect tally, why are you redoing my work but worse.

Firestorm's proposed tiers after seeing the evidence did not include Low 1-C, so that's another disagree, Deagonx repeatedly stated that it's not Low 1-C or 2-A, just 2-C, you thinking that argument is bad doesn't make it neutral. And Ovens, too, said it's only 2-C.

Even if you are going to take Glass' vague as hell single the upgrades seem fine comment as agreeing with Low 1-C, even though your OP says "This is 2-A, or maybe it's Low 1-C? I dunno" as agreeing with Low 1-C, then that's still 5-5, not 5-2.

Stop this shit dude.

Anyways, I’ve updated the main post to include the current votes in proper manner as well, so there’s no confusion to whoever reading it. Apologies if there was any misunderstanding—it was never my intention to manipulate or misrepresent the votes. In fact, I didn’t label some supportive votes either as this is quite a complicated matter which I was new to back then. Thank you for your understanding.

This is incorrect. The closest thing to that was Ultima's vote, but you couldn't mean that, since you only put that down as neutral. You did not forget to leave out any support for 2-A or Low 1-C in the previous iteration of the OP.

On countless Worlds I would like to add that the fact that there are scans which assert there are infinite amounts of demons (implied infinite per every archetype also) would prove infinite worlds outright as a consequence (specifically in conjunction with the scans that assert there are multiple realms). This is because you either need A) all of your infinite objects in one place Or B) all of your infinite objects spread out across an infinite number of spaces. DMC follows the latter because it does not confirm that all demons exist in one specific infinite-sized dimension in the Demon World. In fact, the series makes it very clear there multiple places the demons reside in. Therefore, we would automatically assume there needs to be an infinite number of independent dimensions in the DW to house all these demons.

That is false. There is nothing preventing you from having infinite objects spread across two worlds. Take two line segments of length one, and there are countably infinitely many rational numbers across the two of them.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Firestorm's proposed tiers after seeing the evidence did not include Low 1-C, so that's another disagree

Firestorm never stated he disagreed or neutral soo he is obviously out of the picture until he points it out here.

, Deagonx repeatedly stated that it's not Low 1-C or 2-A, just 2-C, you thinking that argument is bad doesn't make it neutral.

Deagon's whole schtick is based on Ultima's reply from the previous thread. He agreed it being an L1C argument but kept basing it over a reply from Ultima in a previous CRT thread, something Ultima himself stated that it goes either way in this thread recently which updates the situation but fine, I'll move it to disagreements then.

And Ovens, too, said it's only 2-C.

Oops forgot to mention him in L1C one. Lemme fix that rq.

Even if you are going to take Glass' vague as hell single the upgrades seem fine comment as agreeing with Low 1-C, even though your OP says "This is 2-A, or maybe it's Low 1-C? I dunno" as agreeing with Low 1-C, then that's still 5-5, not 5-2.

Stop this shit dude.

Alright alright, you can just point it out, nothing to be serious about lol.

I was waiting for your reply here anyway.

This is incorrect. The closest thing to that was Ultima's vote, but you couldn't mean that, since you only put that down as neutral. You did not forget to leave out any support for 2-A or Low 1-C in the previous iteration of the OP.

Glass as well mind you. I'm not really desperate with votes or stuff. It can be anything for all I care. I just labeled it out as how people agreed over. Not to mention, this type of stuff is something I was new to back then, especially such a diverse topic so mistakes can happen. I'll fix it right on if that's how things are.

Wonder why nobody pointed it out before during the process... Weird...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Just fix the votes so they're correctly counted. Not worth all this just to try and get the thread accepted

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Fixed it

 

[Unoriginal777]

This is still an incorrect tally, why are you redoing my work but worse.

Firestorm's proposed tiers after seeing the evidence did not include Low 1-C, so that's another disagree, Deagonx repeatedly stated that it's not Low 1-C or 2-A, just 2-C, you thinking that argument is bad doesn't make it neutral. And Ovens, too, said it's only 2-C.

Even if you are going to take Glass' vague as hell single the upgrades seem fine comment as agreeing with Low 1-C, even though your OP says "This is 2-A, or maybe it's Low 1-C? I dunno" as agreeing with Low 1-C, then that's still 5-5, not 5-2.

Stop this shit dude.

This is incorrect. The closest thing to that was Ultima's vote, but you couldn't mean that, since you only put that down as neutral. You did not forget to leave out any support for 2-A or Low 1-C in the previous iteration of the OP.

That is false. There is nothing preventing you from having infinite objects spread across two worlds. Take two line segments of length one, and there are countably infinitely many rational numbers across the two of them.

Now that I consider it, I think I was a bit careless in this point I conveyed as I was a bit tired at that point of the day. Thank you for correcting me on that end, but as before I would like reemphasize the significance of looking back at the infinite multiversal space container discussion as it is of great importance for the topic of discussion here. And tbh, now that I consider it, it may be wise to only form final conclusions following the thread's completion

 

[Theglassman12]

@Agnaa Just to clear things up since it seems my vote's unclear, I'm fine with the 2-A buffs but the tier 1 stuff I'm more neutral on given that's another can of worms I'm not too familiar with.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

@Agnaa Just to clear things up since it seems my vote's unclear, I'm fine with the 2-A buffs but the tier 1 stuff I'm more neutral on given that's another can of worms I'm not too familiar with.

Okay then. Thanks for clarifying. Lemme change that.