Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

[Random-Helper323]

Have you considered these possibilities:

• The ray of light caused a separation (i.e. distinction) between light and darkness, while Pluto caused a separation (i.e. physically creating a gap) between those worlds of light and darkness? Especially since y'all're treating the ray of light as the human world, and so it wouldn't have existed prior to the events of this panel, while Kep's explanation of the creation of the universe mentioned that the Human World and the Demon World were initially mixed, leading to pandemonium and many deaths. We know that the Pluto stuff took place after the Human World already existed.

Even the panel about the ray of light treats the human world splitting off as coming some time after the ray of light appeared.

Because just from a writing standpoint, when you write "There was nothing, and then X appeared, and Y happened" you mean that X caused Y.

This is something of an assumption. I would agree, if other statements didn't tell us that Pluto separated the worlds. Even the panel itself actually treats the light forming and the light splitting off as two separate events.

Anyway, I'm not sure about higher dimensions here. As far as I can tell the Wiki keeps changing its mind on those since they're so subjective. Never mind that their very existence is theoretical. I'm just providing the information I know about the Demon World's dimensions and attempting to provide the information to you. I do know the Demon World contains the mirror world which is outside of time, and has time flow that is very weird where time flows faster or slower than in the human world or even stops completely. I also know that the merging of the worlds in DMC2 created a time paradox where a demon who had died years earlier is alive again and in a location that he's never been to before.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That's not what that scan says, but even if it was, that would not be evidence for QS.

That link doesn't work, but from how you describe it, it's not evidence for QS.

That implies a countably infinite or smaller increase in size, which is not evidence for QS, and implies that it doesn't occupy a significantly larger space; contradicting one way of achieving Low 1-C.

This link doesn't work, but we've already gone over it; it contradicts there being a QS since that conquering was something that had to be done, and was seen as an achievement, rather than being something the weakest demon could do with zero effort.

That's just the world having fragile laws; not evidence for QS.

That actually says they're power's too much to fully cross over, so they need to take on a proxy appearance. Which is not evidence for QS; this sort of thing can happen to comparable realms.

That actually says "The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils eventually reverts to its original form." Which is not evidence for QS. Even if it did say what you said, that would not be evidence for QS.

You've given five things which don't qualify, and two things which contradict it.

Lemme get this straight.

You wanna say that Human World is treated as a superior realm to Demon World and yet you trying to deny the very obvious idea that Demon World created Human World as well as Demon gods that can exist freely within Demon World can't traverse through Human World due to its fragility? At this point, i feel like you are just being forced to argue here.

As for 5D, Tanin provided the scan where Ultima pointed that space referred via cardinality is not the same as space referred in totality. Here, the entirety of Demon World is stated to be infinite and Light is just a finite ray that has no significance whatsoever.

This is precisely why i was waiting for experts to clear the standards to differentiate between 2A and L1C space and thus, stopped talking over the matter till everything is set but you are the only last thing left that i need to clear doubts off.

This scan which says "Endless darkness, a container of chaos, but even in such a world there was a line of light, and the world ended up separated into two. Darkness is the demon world..."

Yes, now tell me where it says Light splitted the Darkness in half... Now i do agree without any solid context it do seems to refer to that but we have made this point very clear that it was splitted by Pluto, the first very Demon God and it is accepted universally by the entire wiki so we should probably move on.

I already know, and have addressed this aspect six separate times.

Except all of them are wrong according to what Tanin provided.

Have you considered these possibilities:

• The ray of light caused a separation (i.e. distinction) between light and darkness, while Pluto caused a separation (i.e. physically creating a gap) between those worlds of light and darkness? Especially since y'all're treating the ray of light as the human world, and so it wouldn't have existed prior to the events of this panel, while Kep's explanation of the creation of the universe mentioned that the Human World and the Demon World were initially mixed, leading to pandemonium and many deaths. We know that the Pluto stuff took place after the Human World already existed.

Yes. The context here is referring to Pluto coming right after Human World was conceived and they were massively distinct from one another which resulted in a war between these two aspects.

• Pluto caused the ray of light to come about, separating the worlds?

Pluto was the one who splitted the world apart as it was causing chaos across all his empire.

• The event with Pluto is one that will happen in the future, rather than this event which happened in the past? (Given how the manga seems to be describing a creation story, while the scan about Pluto comes from a book, which is talking about an event which hadn't happened at the time of it being written).

Well yeah the wordings may sound like that at first hand although poetic (also DMC1 have alot of typo mistakes soo don't be surprised) but from a lore perspective, it makes perfect sense.

• Pluto simply maintained the separation, rather than causing it himself, as said through this scan, where he emerged after they were already split, and prevented them from ever being split apart again.

Alright lemme explain you given i was confused as well when i first got into this scenerio but basically it was Pluto who was there since the primordial era where Human World was already conceived and it was spreading chaos throughout the entire world (from a war perspective as you seen the panel of Darkness trying to consume Light) and in order to stop it, he simply struck the world with his spear as stated here but this is the tricky part.

I don't think you knew this but the kanji for "split" also means torn or divide here depending on the context. In this case, the word here is trying to explain that a demon King with a blackhorn (Pluto) emerged from the darkness and hammered a spike on Human World so that both worlds can never torn (Aka destroy) itself apart.

With this, it's safe to assume that Pluto struck Human World with his spear and soo it was divided from Demon World as a whole. It was mentioned all the way back into the first DMC game, the manga just explained it further although in a weird and unclear way.

Because just from a writing standpoint, when you write "There was nothing, and then X appeared, and Y happened" you mean that X caused Y.

Yeah which is why i won't criticize you here. Its just this one specific context which was soo confusing back in the days to find an answer to but it makes sense when you put all the pieces together.

Pluto had a huge role on the background just never explained in clear way.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Okay. I am prepared to seek their input, but let us make sure that we agree on the substance of the argument. I would formulate it like this:

P1: The Demon World is composed of infinite 4-D structures (2-A)
P2: DontTalk said these 4-D structures must be displaced along a 5-D axis
C1: Therefore, the DW represents this 5-D axis and/or 5-D superstructure
P3: The DW is itself called infinite
C2: Therefore the 5-D axis is infinite, making this structure Low 1-C

I will make some small clarifications here,

P1: I will clarfiy that what I am arguing for is plural(more than one) 4-D structures, doesn't necessarily have to be infinite number of them.
P2: It isn't just something DT said, its already codified in our standards "Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them" and is well known and understood.
C1, P3, C2 looks ok.

This is my counter-argument:

P1: The FAQ says a single "infinitely-sized" multiverse is 2-A, not Low 1-C. Further, infinitely many "infinitely sized multiverses" are still just 2-A.
P2: The FAQ says that "bigger" than 2-A isn't Low 1-C without proof of QS (uncountable universes, or evidence the 2-A structure is infinitesimal)
C1: Therefore, statements that the DW is infinite are not evidence of Low 1-C, as "infinitely sized" multiverses are specified in the FAQ to be 2-A.

This is your counter-counterargument:

P1: The FAQ entries in question are addressing cardinality, not "spatial size."
P2: The DW being called "infinite" should be interpreted as referring to "spatial size"
C1: Therefore, these FAQ entries are unrelated to the reasoning being used.
C2: Therefore, it is still the case that the DW being called "infinite" and being composed of infinite 4-D structures makes it Low 1-C.

Looks ok, for the most part.

The questions are thus:
1) Does the information in the first argument sufficiently justify Low 1-C in our current standards?
2) Does the FAQ itself sufficiently rebut this by addressing "infinitely sized" multiverses and "infinite" multiverses as 2-A, such that the Demon World being called "infinite" can appropriately be assumed to refer to the same notion of "infinite" using in those same descriptors?

1) Yeah, our standards for Low 1-C are basically should be 5-D/6-D(any combination of spatial or temporal dimensions) and should be significant in size(at least universal to not fall under the category of pocket dimension). Well, the DW is infinite sized and is 5D as explained in the first three premises.

2) No, the FAQ deals with:

"Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinite many, won't scale above a single 2-A structure in size.

The DW does not refer to having more 2-A structures when it refers to being infinite sized, so it doesn't sufficiently rebut it as it is unrelated to it.