Huh? Bro saying it has a different dimension of time, is him mentioning it's a diff dimension, it's mutual
Yuh huh, which ones, where, etc? ALL this has to be cited my dude, especially if they affect the profiles.
No, there’s a difference he calls it a world with a different time dimension. He’s saying that the time dimension in that world is different from the one they’re currently in. That is way different from calling it a different dimension, although it is indeed a different dimension, but that is not what the statement says. There are statements that do call the RoSaT an alternate dimension, but that scan isn’t one that does.Huh? Bro saying it has a different dimension of time, is him mentioning it's a diff dimension, it's mutual
And
"Once the door of the room is closed, we’re completely shut out of the outside world. See? You don’t feel Cell’s Ki or Vegeta's Ki anymore."
Doesn't help, why do you think they're shut out in the first place?
Yuh huh, which ones, where, etc? ALL this has to be cited my dude, especially if they affect the profiles.
Bro, EVERY dimension, is a different dimension of time? That's half of what makes a dimension
Bro, you realize if they share a time axis, they arent diff dimensions in a true sense yes?
Youre joking right?
They don't really need to? It's self evident.
We'll see after you actually source, for all I know half that shit could be anime or Toei.
Thank you.
Good idea
well, using the Goku Black arc kind of shoots yourself in the foot, as the way black cut space time there, which is only an speculation on his part and not confirmed that it was what happened, visually shows that it can't make anything have any markings due to the cut, as it shows that space-time isn't a surface, it isn't engraving on anything more than it is opening holes that lead somewhere, by using this you are saying that one easily go from the Afterlife to the Living World via going through said cuts, but Black's case was clearly an outlier since it also allowed him to endlessly create gas clones of himself
not really as you didn't really provided anything to suggest that the Barriers broken in DBS Broly nor the ROSAT are the same barriers, you are just affirming that they are as if it was obvious, which i say that it isn't, so if you are going to answer this, please keep in mind that proving that both barriers are the same is essential for your point to work, so not doing so greatly weakens it
the point is not much the time alone, more so the implication and direct statement of the Afterlife being much closer to Earth than another point in the Living Universe
i never argued that the one in Z and Broly aren't dimensional barriers at all.......i argued that they are, no idea where you are getting that i said they aren't, i am simply saying that they don't prove that the living world is a separate dimension from the likes of Afterlife and Kaioshin realm, as both of those instances are of separating stuff outside the Universe from said Universe, so it doesn't serve to prove that the other realms are equally separated as stuff from outside the Universe, even if you proved with 100% that the other realms are other dimensions, the actual problem i described here wouldn't really change
no, this proves that the Demon realm is another dimension, sure, it proves that it isn't in the spatial area of the normal universe, yet it doesn't stop the likes of Kaioshin realm and Afterlife from being in the same spatial area as the
well first of all, the other scan i am using doesn't cite Figure 1 anywhere in its text, so for you to refer only to the one that specifically does already doesn't cover the point completely
don't remember affirming that as an counter point, wouldn't really make sense to say "there is no dimensions" to prove that they aren't, either way, what i said is that there is no evidence or statement of the other realms being other dimensions
Chariot is already debating this, so i won't add anything for now
where's this from? which guide? depending on the answer i may add it to the OP as a point against the Kaioshin realm specifically, altho i find it interesting that the next dimension statement would be refereing to the Kaioshin realm and not the Afterlife, since one would be "closer" to the living world, saying that the next dimension is the Kaioshin realm would validate the arguments against the Afterlife and Demon Realm being other dimensions
You have a summary ready? For a response I can get around to it late Monday or Tuesday.
that point was purely to demonstrate how, in verse, the Afterlife is much closer to Earth than another planet in the same spatce(the universe)
Whis could travel to Zeno's in 2 days, and the universes sit in human-sized form on top of rocks while being outside the universes, so idk.
yeah.............don't see how this correlates to the point tho, Zeno's place is another dimension outside the 12 Universes
we actually are never told what those things are in Zeno's place.......so as far as we know they are just decoration
Your issue was the variance in arrival destinations based on the proximity of two different spacetimes. Whis takes 2 days to travel to a jellyfish that exists in another place entirely. There's also the ambiguity of Whis taking Future Trunks and Mai to a "different future" without explicit mention of a time ring, and we know Whis has universal time manipulation. Angels are the only ones shown being capable of interdimensional/universal travel outside of teleportation or time machines.
He was capable of moving actual planets and galaxies through a hologram, and the universes above those pillars are moving in the anime. It's basically all but confirmed (unless it is confirmed somewhere.)
Yeah the universes on zenos palace are actual universes, his finger even materialized in the lower realm from the hologram, which seems to be a subset of the lower universes materialized in zenos higher dimension. And you can only get there by teleportation and whis staff, as do the other realms like the kaioshin realm, living realm, and afterlife. Also neutral zone. Which is a BIG reason on why they are separate spacetimes.
Unless Goku and Co grew to Universal sizes out of nowhere......yeah no, those are at best representations
That specification for the other realms is never said tho
Yet you literally have no proof of that, the universes are literally moving, and the nature of zenos realm ALLOWS them to be larger, you know its fiction right? And this is just more proof for zenos realm being a higher dimension. Like I said, he can materialize his finger in the lower realms and it appears as big as a planet, entire galaxies are small to him. He can flick the planets also, his hologram displays a section of the universe where he can interact with it. If you can't prove they are, "just representations" then im not gonna take it seriously. But this doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
You're still on this? Don't you find it weird that the only way to get to the other dimensions in dragon ball is through special means? Like flight and teleportation? That specific flight being able to travel to potentially higher dimensions, capable of time travel, and went to the neutral dimension? Yet you still say, "oh but its never said". All we have to do is use our eyes to figure it out. Teleportation like kai kai and IT are also used to travel to other dimensions, like the 3 realms, the 3 realms are stated to be separate from each other. You cannot fly to them.
the fact that a normal sized human beings are bigger than them + nothing ever proving what they are at all?
how does it being fiction fix the blatant size stuff? how does "its fiction bro" correlates to the fact that Goku is bigger than those orbs?
Goku isn't a higher dimensional being tho, his going to a higher dimension really doesn't matter for the fact that he himself is far smaller than any universe, thus suddently being bigger + nothing saying that they are the universes should be enough to say the obvious.........they aren't universes
considering that there isn't a thing saying that they are the literal universes + their size being a clear problem to that + the fact that this doesn't really matter for this thread........yeah, i don't think i need to prove that
........in dragon ball? dude, that is true for most other dimensions, fiction or otherwise, you need special means to get to them regardless since they aren't spatially connected for one to just fly to them, or whatever other physical travel, needing special travel doesn't anything other that they are alternate dimensions
unless you can make this wiki accept the higher dimensional Zeno Pallace....you can't really use it as an argument, also that fly ability is also equally capable of flying spatially in a 3D manner, so that doesn't really prove much, it can do both
and also used to travel bettween physical spaces like between planets.......again, it can do both, it isn't exclusive to other dimensions
again, this thread is arguing that they aren't other dimensions to begin with.......so you can't use the "fact" that they are other dimensions.......in your argument trying to prove that they are other dimensions
.........nothing you showed says this tho, you just said that a technique that can do both physical travel and interdimensional travel can be used to get to them.....which should be obvious regardless of them being other dimensions or not
They're basically like computer shortcuts. They're physical references to a different point in memory (space). The same way a planet was destroyed in real space by rolling onto Grand Priest's foot, even though he didn't touch the planet's position in real space. Just like time rings are physical temporal representations of a timeline.
well.....the afterlife has to have time tho, it still flows from the perspective of those inside
Do give an example of a space that voids any flow from the perspective of those inside.
At the very least, this would display a difference in time flow between dimensions. Idk how else Frieza would call nearly two decades of immobility a short time when he appears to be a child in Broly the same time Vegeta is a child. Even Vegeta says it's been far too long.
Dog, it's literally a 1:1 passage of time.
Not really as 1 year in the living world is exactly 1 year in the afterlife, we see that time in both flows the same in real time during the sayan saga.....plus the statement is "there is no time at all" and not "there is a different flow of time"
Except the Afterlife isn’t moving at relative time. There’s literally just none. And that doesn’t stop other dimensions from moving normally. Unless we’re to say the Timeline Zeno deleted (and has no time) means that the Timeline Goku and Co. inhabit must freeze as well? (It factually doesn’t when they travel by the way.) Because I notice no one ever brings it up.
Wait, I'm confused. Are we arguing Other World doesn't have time now?
And you're already wrong because we see dozens of times in DBZ that time passes 1:1, time passes, it does constantly, and we see it pass all the time.
Except I’ve pointed out consistently, that time moving in an entirely separate dimension does not affect the time of a totally separate world. And, again, when Goku and Co. got to a literally Timeless Void left after Zeno’s erasure, they still moved, had cause and effect, etc. It literally just means it’s Timeless. How that interacts with Wiki is irrelevant, because your claim is based on actual canon, not what the Wiki should qualify it as. Your idea that time would suddenly freeze has no basis in any form of logic.
I mean, I’ve always viewed it as true (as I’ve iterated multiple times in the Discussion thread), so yeah.
Yeah. And you're wrong every time and completely ignore the massive fucky that time quite literally still moves.
Two wrongs don't make a right, one off hand **** up doesn't excuse the few hundred for Other World.
No, it means the exact opposite, it still has time.
Youre ON the wiki dude, either it adheres to our standards, or drop it.
Do you not understand where you are? Do you need to be warned for not following standards?
Time doesnt exist, time can not flow. Despite that, not only does it flow, it flows at an identical rate, in a verse that straight up shows time discrepancies.
Nope.
Dude the only thing "wrong" with Otherworld is based on faulty logic you refuse/simply cannot explain, after I've repeatedly asked.
He absolutely did. The Time Ring (the physical manifestation of a Time Line) was destroyed due to his Erasure.
It never demonstrates time. At least, not a time we can "percieve." 1 month doesn't pass in Otherworld. Nothing passes in Otherworld, and people are able to leave that Timeless place to The MORTAL WORLD (which DOES demonstrate time), and appearing in the new time period. Time marches on without them. And any mention of time that does happen is always within context to the Mortal World ("The Saiyans arrived to EARTH a few months early," or "You won't make it to EARTH on time,") and as such people comment on that.
No? We categorize canon. Canon doesn't conform to us. We don't say "Well time clearly exists, the story lied." We are to say, "There is objectively no time, but it doesn't operate by our rules, so we must categorize it uniquely from that-Lacking time but not creating consequences." It's literally the whole reason verse pages exist and specific ability pages exist. In total, you're acting as if our words trump that of the actual fiction we classify. It doesn't.
Goku literally comments on how Time passes here and not there in the Buu Saga. Frieza says the time he was there was "short" (literally 2 decades Mortal World Time). These individuals are the only ones who actually give testimony on it, and are also the only ones to experience it for sizable portions of Mortal Time, and they back each other up. Clearly, they do operate the way we would expect.
Yuh huh
What? That's LITERALLY how time works, if you don't understand what time even is, that's on you.
Goddamn right it just would
Yeah, ****** up ain't it?
Damn, so DBZ is just super dogshit at adhering to logic and being consistent huh?
It literally does.
You literally just gave an example of time passing, wtf?
Yes we do, literally why we treat void feats as useless unless they explicitly show it as being truly timeless. Where have you been, it's been like that for about half a decade now?
No, we literally just go "theyre wrong and yapped, sucks to suck", like every other verse that goes "uhm, timeless place" and then show it has time. DBZ isn't special dude.
It quite literally does? Every calc, the very basis of our indexing, is based on our world. Every stat on this wiki comes from our world's logic.
And he's wrong, literally, 7 years passed for him just as it did there.
Means absolutely nothing, we have no idea what's short or long to him, like if his ass is a 100 years old, shit would be short relatively. We don't know, but the fact is time passed even then, short amounts of time is still time. Aka, ya just proved it has time.
Expect they aren't? Time passes ALL the time, why pretend we don't see this hundreds of times? Even something as mundane as Perfect Cell regening.
Yeah, I am, because that's what the verse establishes, unlike a chunk of the DBZ goons I don't just make shit up and headcanon everything to fit an agenda.
No, it's literally an alt dimension with it's own time flow.
Except everything in the ROSAT experiences time at a different rate compared to the mortal world because the ROSAT and the MW have two different time flows, aka, from the perspective of those within it, time passes at the proper relative rate.
They move at their relative rates dude, it's why it works to begin with
If time doesn't exist in other world, Goku's perception and experience of time would be static while in OW because time doesn't progress. Much like how his perception of time is 1 year to a day in the ROSAT, in OW, it'd be infinity to any time at all, as OW would be at a constant 0.
What time "is" IRL and what it's treated as "in story," can and HAVE been entirely different for countless narratives. We index what it is, not what we like it to be. Thus, this comment makes no ******* sense.
Read above.
No, it shows a vast lack of desire to actually explain why you believe X, Y, and Z would happen. If I said the Sun was made of yarn, you asked me to say why, and then I go "It just is," that doesn't magically make it true, explain anything, or cover the litany of issues that would occur if it was true. At best you're being straight up unhelpful, since it's literally you refusing to explain.
Literally means we simply index it properly. Not refuse to engage with the source material.
No. It doesn't.
Okay. What part of Otherworld's Time being non-existent (relative to the mortal world, since obviously they're still moving and whatnot), would make the act of counting a contradiction?
To Goku, Time DIDN'T pass. He outright mentions it in regards to SSJ3. So again, what are you talking about? SECOND, if I exist in a Timeless realm, Time OUTSIDE that realm DOESN'T FREEZE. So Time moving OUTSIDE of it literally DOESN'T MATTER.
If a world says "Their Earth is 50x real Earth," we don't suddenly say the series is wrong for still having normal Earth physics. If they say their Souls are integral concepts that decide reality, we don't suddenly say their souls aren't souls. The same applies here. While obviously, we index based on our world, at no point do we deny the fictional one. We instead index appropriately. We adjust our calcs based on the GBE of that hypothetical planet, we list those Souls as both the Soul and a Concept. In that same way, we would not claim that the Timeless Void is not a Timeless Void. We would, and SHOULD, say it is not "OUR KIND" of Timeless Void.
We have verse and specific abilities pages for those purposes, but also to clarify information (with blogs) for verse specific information. Like how in JJK, the body and the Soul are one thing. Or how in GoW, Souls are made of multiple smaller facets in Norse Mythology. Or how in Naruto, their Chakra Networks are inherent to the biology of Naruto Humans. We account for the specific quirks of a world. In that same way, Dragon Ball isn't special and we should account for the Quirks of the Dragon World.We have verse pages just to categorize that shit so people can click the profiles what
And specific ability pages, isnt the same as "hey this place literally doesnt work the way we said that one time lmao", a thing we LITERALLY have standards for already.
Dude. My guy. "If it was blank, he would do X/mention it."
No? Nothing has proved it has time. Also, 2 decades is not a short time period relative to one hundred years? It's like a fifth of his life? Also-also, fair on Frieza's life cycle, though.
Cell regenerated in Otherworld...and reappeared moments later in the Living World. And all of that was offscreen. The only perspective of the Afterlife we get on that incident is Goku and King Kai, who've somehow already been checked in, gotten the body pass, and are floating above Snake Way in the 3 pages between the detonation and we see them. Also, I don't see how time passing without Cell (as he was not in Time) would affect Cell.
It establishes that dimensions with different time flows affect those within their time flows. Not interdimensionally. In fact, this is an active plot point in the Buu Saga. Piccolo mixes up the way the RoSaT works relative to the normal world because the only thing whose perspectives should be, and ARE, affected are the individuals.
No one said it is? I'm saying it's an alt dimension with it's own flow. By your logic, that flow would leak out and make time pass quicker. Or that time would pass slower to the RoSaT. Hell, your own logic doesn't even make sense. Elder Kai was literally watching the Gotenks fight, from a different dimension entirely. Even if Otherworld has a time flow, by your logic this shouldn't be possible. Things should be moving 365x relative to their perception, and leak out into Otherworld and accelerate time. Your logic is literally simply not how it works. When Goku goes into the HTC, time doesn't "speed up." He simply enters a faster space time. No more and no less. This does not touch or affect any other space time. Just the things inside it. As such, when he leaves, he shall find time has passed without him, simply at a slower pace because that space time is slower. Identically, when Goku enters and leaves Otherworld, time passes without him, and he merely re-enters where Time is now.
Read above.Except everything in the ROSAT experiences time at a different rate compared to the mortal world because the ROSAT and the MW have two different time flows, aka, from the perspective of those within it, time passes at the proper relative rate.
Ie, if the OW had no time, Goku and whoever in it would experience it much like the ROSAT because that's quite literally what the verse establishes. That doesn't happen, it's 1:1.
They move at their relative rates dude, it's why it works to begin with
If time doesn't exist in other world, Goku's perception and experience of time would be static while in OW because time doesn't progress. Much like how his perception of time is 1 year to a day in the ROSAT, in OW, it'd be infinity to any time at all, as OW would be at a constant 0.
There's a difference between being wrong because you said something in an interview, and wrote a different thing (Death of the Author), and being "wrong" because you wrote one thing, repeated that thing, that thing is in the source material (thus objectively cannot be wrong), and people with no power over the source material are going "Nuh uh, not realistic enough."
Because for some reason my links aren't appearing.
No we dont? If you can't follow the standards, I'll be forced to report you, you realize that yes? While on wiki, in a CRT no less, you follow our standards, not yours.
I did.
I have, you, quite literally, don't grasp what time entails, idk what else to say beyond that.
Yeah, you're right, but if the sun WAS made of yarn, demonstrated being made of yarn, and has hundreds of examples being made of yarn, and ya said "nuh uh it lacks yarn", that'd be on you being dense or not knowing wtf yarn is or something.
No, that's exactly what it means, the material made a fucky and is full of shit. So we don't use it.
It does every goddamn time.
What? The fact it HAS TIME. It demonstrates time EVERY time, without fail, even when they say it doesn't it STILL does. Thus it doesn't qualify by standards and boo hoo it doesn't get the timeless world sticker.
Except it has? The fact he had a training montage? Trains with dudes. The fact seven years passed? From HIS perspective?
Yeah we assume it's density then correlates to said size, in order to obtain 1g as to have the physics it displays.
Souls in and of themselves aren't subject to reality, because we don't even have a frame of reference for them irl.
We do EVERYDAY, constantly. Is DBZ the only verse you interact with? We toss shit all the time because it doesn't follow irl standards, whether it's something minor like Ram skillfucking a dude 400x quicker than her, which we tossed because it's dumb, or the aforementioned explicit mass for Metroid planets because it doesn't add up with how they actually behave (gee almost like OW not behaving like said), or the dozens of other timeless worlds that we don't accept as timeless.
Yeah, we index as it's shown a thousand times, not wrong statements because Akira Toriyama doesn't know what time is.
This, again, ultra ironic.
Souls (might) not even be real man and even irl, they vary between religions, quite literally an example of something ya can yap about and make shit up for, not the same for TIME.
Youre on OUR wiki, so YES, you do.
A slew of false equivalences, but go off on how "chakra" is somehow the same as a whole world showing time.
Jesus christ, time shouldn't be this hard too grasp. It isn't just some cool word.
You just said to him it was a short time.
Dude there was a good few minutes that took place.
Yeah, and yet in OW, Goku experiences time normally, we know this as the start of super he ***** off for a few months, and he KNOWS how long he's been gone for. He can obviously keep track of time there, because he experiences the same, because the MW and OW have the same rate of flow.
You literally just did dude.
No? But it sure as hell effects one's perception of time. OW doesn't, ever, best ya got is Freeza, but no ignore blatant examples like Tien going "yeah, i dont mind staying dead for an extra year, it's only a year's wait lmao".
Yeah, and? We don't know what it looked like from his pov.
The **** is up with your strawmanning?
And to him, he experiences a whole year, in the same time as the outside does 1 day.
What the actual hell are you talking about? OW doesn't even effect the shit inside it dude, time straight up is 1:1 between, and the fact they experience time, in any way, at all, in OW, means it has time because yuh huh that's what time means.
Do you really think that? We toss stated shit out all the time, it needs to actually show it, it does the opposite.
Yes, because youre on the wiki, tough shit.
