Omega what are you talking about, its stated that teleportation is the only way to reach these realms, and now its retconned adding more ways to reach these realms, methods that have the same interdimensional properties, either you're not understanding what Im saying, or you're simply not reading it. I'm basing all of this off of whats been shown and stated like wtf?
Do you have proof of physical travel being possible to reach these realms? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Something being able to go to a place =/= being the only way to go to a place
Which makes ones go from an area completely outside of the macrocosm back into said macrocosm, as such, it isn't relevant to the point at hand at all
not like anyone ever atempted to be proven false, so........this is a nothing point
that a technique that can go to other dimensions can be used to travel inside a singulat dimension as well, which.......what a shocker
Why would i try to disprove that interdimensional methods can be used to travel inside a singular dimension?
Not really as at max you would have only spatial separation and a temporal one
It can't disprove something that wasn't even proved to begin with
It doesn't, nothing you said proved that one needs these type of techniques to reach the other realms
Yes, the statements of them being physically connected via normal 3D distance in the OP
no, it retconed it being a nescesity in the first place, nothing about the "other things with similar properties" being the nescesity instead were ever said
This is never said, the "same interdimensial properties are nescesary, and not teleportation specifically" the stement talks exclusively about teleportation, if it is retconed, the nescesity statement equally is
The only statement you are using is directly contradicted by your other example, making your point that relies on it saying that teleportation is a nescesity crumble as without that, nothing saya that it is a nescesity
I mean for the Afterlife, this just means it's a barrier with a funky design. Doesn't make it not a dimensional barrier
It means that it is a physical barrier as it can be engraved upon, per our standards, if what separates both places is a physical barrier then it doesn't qulify as another space time or dimension
It being used to travel to these places =/= it is the only way one can travel to these places
"Engraved" also means it just has the design on it, which doesn't necessarily mean someone cut into it. It could've just been a result of the barrier's formation. This is too speculative
You'd need to prove physical travel, I don't need some uber specific statement. If you claim there is a contradiction, prove it instead of shifting it onto me
No, engraved means that someone cutted that in, that is literally what "engraved" means, it needs to be physical to be able to be engraved upon, it being said to be close to Earth and the hermatically seal(also requires it to be physical) are also things poiting to it
Noted, will fix it
The contradiction in question is teleportation being a nescecity, the other 3D distance evidence in the OP are what you would be looking for as far as "contradictions to spatial separation" go
Bro I don't care
You don't care? Ight lmao. And I already explained this, which omega agreed with me btw. First of all, goku states that the rosat is completely isolated from the outside world, he then follows up with not being able to sense ki. And old kai clarifies that he's just talking about the dimension of time, which in this case is the rosat. It literally just means the rosat has special properties which blocks out ki sensing, that's just the nature of the time chamber, it doesn't mean anything for the other realms not being spatialtemporally separate.
Old kai didn't know what the ROSAT was. All he said was "they're in another dimension".
No it's called following the basic premise of the arc given I just went and read the whole thing just to double check.
Do you not know what exposition is? The characters are but a way to tell us shit.
Doesn't need to, ignoring the fact his intent is to just flatout be the strongest mf, the dragon though granting the wish? The whole premise of the arc? The ten fucktillion yappings? That, on the other hand, well they know.
He knows what the universe entails. Frieza is the one mf there who you can't use that against.
That isn't stated or implied anywhere. Whis ain't even a God pretty sure, so the plural Gods, sure as hell wasn't talking about him.
"Hey the whole universe"
Yeah, I made a claim. I provided evidence, which, you've gone and ignored so good job on that, tempted to get this moved to staff only if we're already at the point any actual evidence is ignored and is met whatever the hell this reply was.
I'm going to make this super blunt so you can understand.
Of course not. And? What matters is if "strongest in the universe", ie, what universe is defined as in context, is talking about Universe 7, not the mortal realm.
Surely you're not being this obtuse on purpose?
Your entire argument relies on arguing semantics, though. "Hermetically" also means "in a way that is insulated or protected from outside influences", and "engrave" also means "cut or carve a text or design on", which isn't often used to refer to dimensions, but neither contradict there being dimensional barriers. Engraved is also a verb, which means someone's responsible for doing this, but it seems obvious that it's simply a reference to the drawing of the map.
Of course it does. Or, at least, it's apart of another dimension that is not the Demon Realm, but within the Living World.
It's verbatim called "Cosmos" numerous times. The word is majoritarily used to refer to a universe, and, when discussing cosmology, is used to refer to a spacetime continuum. What exactly is vague about it?
It can also just mean space and a bunch of other stuff.
Which is not what I said, either. I said the term cosmos means universe and is used to refer to a spacetime continuum in Cosmology.
No, he ran from King Kai's planet to King Yemma, with Kami teleporting him from King Yemma's place to Earth, and THEN he used flying Nimbus to get to the saiyans
Except it doesn't? In the context of DBZ it means mortal world.
They dont say "btw the cosmos, is a spacetime continuum", so no, it isnt.
Yes, I also read the entire arc. Multiple times infact. They never specify the wish and prophecy as the same thing and it's left ambiguous if Freeza is even the one being referred to.
Oracle Fish prophecy =/= Granolah and Gas's wish. The prophecy being about Granolah or Gas was setup to be a red herring. And Freeza being the strongest is him coming back to the living world after spending time in the HTC. So either he became the 'strongest' while in the HTC or he became the 'strongest' by entering the living world. And no, Goku and Vegeta thinking Granolah, Gas and Freeza are all the ones the prophecy refers to is meaningless. Because all of those characters far surpassed them in that arc. From their perspective any of them could qualify for the prophecy. Because the wish (which isn't the prophecy) made the former two that strong.
Do you know what a 'red herring' is? Once again, the entire plot was setup to make it LOOK like Granolah was the one in the prophecy. Then Gas showed up. Then Freeza showed up. And even then it's left ambiguous by Whis if Freeza really was the one in the prophecy.
None of the dragons have ever been shown to extrapolate from the desires of the summoner. When Granolah, a mortal man, asks to be the 'strongest in the universe' the dragon is more likely to interpret that as the living world.
He never says 'macrocosm' or anything along those lines. Just 'universe'. How would you refer to being inside of the universe if you didn't mean the Afterlife, Kaioshin Realm or otherwise? Exactly. There is no term for it besides simply 'the universe'.
Like you? Extrapolating the ENTIRE MACROCOSM from the term 'universe' used by a galactic tyrant that rules over the universe and is talking about the universe. Once again, how do you actually know when characters are just referring to the universe and not the rest of the macrocosm? Where is the distinction made?
Given they inherently have God Ki and are part of a lineage of the most powerful fighter in the multiverse I would think that they are deties but let's say they aren't. Who else is the dragon referring to besides Beerus? Who is stronger than Granolah after his wish? In ALL Of the macrocosm? RIght. No one. We have never heard of a singular deity of that level of power besides Beerus. And given the fact that Beerus lives entirely in the living world, who is to say that other gods don't exist?
Extrapolation? Where? All I've ever said is that you need more concrete evidence because all of this is ambiguous at best. You are the one extrapolating all of this information. I am the one stating that extrapolation is not sufficient.
Well given the premise is that the dragon didn't factor Freeza into the wish because he wasn't inside of the universe and the fact that the Afterlife is currently accepted as a different spacetime which would be outside of the universe (living world)...yes. That's exactly what would happen.
You have posted absolutely nothing of value in this response. It's all just extrapolation and conflating a divine prophecy with a red herring wish made by mortals with mortal knowledge of the mortal cosmos. Calling this 'evidence' is nonsensical.
All of that text to make the exact same argument as the rest of your post. And you still fail to distinguish between the Oracle Fish's divine prophecy and what is explicitly red herrings in Granolah and Gas with their wishes. When even Freeza being the prophesised 'strongest in Universe 7' is left ambiguous by Whis.
No? I've read this arc multiple times and I have never interpreted the universe lines by the Heeters, Granolah or even Freeza in that way. The former two have no concept of the macrocosm and the latter only specifies 'this' universe and is known for ruling over the universe as a galactic tyrant and land shark. When Freeza says 'this universe' I'm going to interpret it as the universe he is physically in and rules over.
And if the HTC were part of Universe 7 then Freeza would qualify regardless. The argument is whether or not the wishes and prophecy can be conflated.
Yes. You do need proof. Because we get into debates like this over whether or not realms (such as the HTC) constitute as part of the macrocosm when characters talk about the universe and those realms are excluded. If the characters never concretely state whether or not the wish pertained to simply the living world (which is called the universe repeatedly) or the macrocosm (which is usually distinguished as the whole term 'Universe 7') then it is ambiguous.
Yes...except this is simply your interpretation of the wish.
Except it isn't really. Given Whis himself leaves it in doubt whether or not the prophecy actually meant him.
'Double standard nitpicking'? Over what? Asking for hard evidence for your interpretation? Oh wait I forgot I'm 'obtuse' and you implied I am being 'disingenuous'. Of course. Classy.
Can't find that definition in the dictionary, the closest would "in a way that ia closed and difficult to be a part of" when regarding to a thing being excluded socially, which when the definition is of a barrier separating stuff and uses the "sealing" verbatim like the actual meaning uses.......well, it is kind of obvious which meaning is then being used
It does when that same "engraved upon" barrier is said to actually be the thing separating the afterlife from the living world + the other examples and statements hinting at it being close to Earth
Considering that we don't know who made the universe at all, and thus can'f say if someone wouldn't be capable of engraving on said barrier.......eh
It being an higher, transcendental dimension was, else Uni in DB would be Low 1-C by now
Ignoring the weirdness of the statement as i pointed out
That statement is describing literally the macrocosm map:
So you concede my point that that description is based on the design of the macrocosm. And the proof is that the map appears for the first time in full on Daizenshuu 4, and there you can see the strange design engraved in the barriers:
Toriyama made this map AFTER he finished drawing the series, and then the guidebooks expanded on his map and the cosmos, some of them describe the actual universe, but sometimes they will literally just describe whats on the map toriyama drew, why do you think its word for word for how the map is drawn?
Those are direct quotes from toriyama, he literally just says this map was made to wrap our heads around everything and get a general idea what the worlds are like. But even toriyama, through his own words pretty much tells us its just an artistic choice, clearly. There are no opaqe walls with a strange design that blocks the living world, there are actual spatialtemporal barriers that separate everything. Those descriptions aren't accurate to how they are actually portrayed by toriyama, and the guidebooks, games like kakarot, super, etc. We been know that the macrocosm map isnt 100 percent literal, yet you're still using it to try to say the entire cosmology is connected and just floating around in the main universe. Which is just blatantly wrong, your whole crt is pretty based off of nothing. And no, the globe does in fact NOT contradict the macrocosms being 2-C. They can still be made up of multiple spacetimes bruh, and they are shown to multiple times, going back to the interdimensional separation conversation. So idk why you're saying it can't be used, we never had a problem using it before. All the "contradictions" you say exist, don't actually exist. Bubble universe are things used in fiction to represent universes sitting in a higher dimensional space all the time, does that contradict them being spacetimes? Of course not, we know that the universes don't connect because a neutral dimension is used to separate them completely, they don't connect, no matter how much you nitpick every single frame of the anime to try and convince us they do. We see the characters between the universes, with millions of galaxies of separation and we STILL don't see them until we zoom out extremely far into the neutral space. Light shining across the two universes doesn't matter? In a neutral space where the universes are held on a 5th axis, interaction with universes can act extremely differently, it doesn't debunk anything. The realms can still not be seen, but be different dimensions still apart of the macrocosm. Your entire thread was based off of using a visual that toriyama made that was not 100 percent literal to debunk the cosmology.
So "HTC is outside the macrocosm" arguments go out of the window? I see.
Thank god these CRT's have been aiming to change some of these fuckass standards
Not even remotely.
Sure, tell that to the OP of this thread and then I'll agree to that logic.
It directly ties into the OP, no shit it's gonna be subject to debate, literally everything that may or may not affect the cosmology, is up for debate. Unless there's a written rule, anything is subject to change if it ties into the whole uni 7 bullshit.
Take it up with them, not me man.
Then you should know using past threads as a shield ain't exactly a good idea.
Unfortunately, I'm not "people", I like to think im pretty damn consistent in my standards so.
I'm already doing so,dw.
Regardless of our PoVs yes, I can't deny you're consistent on the standards behind your takes. Which is good.
that is a weird way of phrasing it, no, i said that the map that was drawn had to follow the direction of whatever Akira came up with for how the realms looked like, so it would need to follow the descriptions given
all this says is that he drew the map after all the story was done, not that the ideas he had for the how the world looked came as he was drawing it, of course ideas like the Kaioshin realm he must have had when he was writting the story that far and maybe had already drawn earlier versions of the map, but that is neither here or there
i mean..........you said yourself, even if abstracted, the map serves to show how the world is, it being used to represent which are of the universe they are talking about in the guide certainly doesn't disqualify them, specially when the statements about it are talking about the realms themselves
you didn't proved that yet......at max you proved that those exist to separate something outside the macrocosm from the inside of the macrocosm.....which is duh tbh
..........you do know that is the only map used to portray them in guidebooks rights?
which can be ignored if contradicts the main cannon, which was decided in another thread which even allowed us to use stuff from it in the first place
........you do know that if you use the Super depictions all the Universes share the same physical space, right? you did read the last point in the OP, right?
yet you guys argued very hard for it in the earlier thread? now that you can dis use it to possibly prevent a downgrade you are quick to do so.......curious ain't it?
not really? it is based around actual statements in verse, statements that do not regard the Map and other statements that do not even regard the macrocosm, but talk about a thing that is outside of it
they have not.........going back to the coversation, there is still nothing that puts them as other dimensions, worst yet, nothing that puts them as other space times
what am i saying can't be used again? the Map? if you are arguing that it can be used, well it would be weird that what you said imediatly before in this very comment
they do tho, wait, are you talking about the Super depiction? the one where the Universes are literally touching each other physically and thus ocupying the same space?
no, but them physically touching and thus being connected physically certainly does
first of all, that is the manga, which in this case is very clearly different from the anime given all we ever saw of the neutral space in it
i can count a dozen, at max 12 galaxies in the shot you are showing, not millions of them, so........duh, of course it doesn't zoom out, there are just so few galaxies being covered
light physically traveling between and into both does........also, statement about them acting differently? do you have proof of that?
prove that they are different dimensions to begin with and then we can begin talking about that
no, it was based around the statement about the realms that the map, as a illustration of them, had to follow to be drawn in the first place as the ideas have to come first before one draws something as that is how drawing something works
And well, neutral dimension also appears in DBS anime. So, what is your point here?
