Rikudou Madara Uciha vs 7th Hokage (8/11/0)

[UchihaSlayer96]

I just don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that we use the profiles for VS matches. If something is not on the profiles, then you can't use it until it gets added. Inversely, if something IS on the profiles, then you have to abide by it until it gets changed.
Now, do I agree with everything that is on the profiles? No, of course not. Those are the site's rules, though. We have to abide by the profiles, that's the reason for which they exist in the first place.
If there's something you don't agree with, then you are allowed to attempt changing it through Content Revision Threads. It's that simple.

Now, for the millionth time. Hokage Naruto is NOT accepted as stronger than his teen counterpart. Momoshiki is NOT accepted as stronger than Kaguya. I'm not asking you to agree with that stance, or to debate me on it. I'm just saying that the profiles say something, and that's what we use for VS Battles on this site as per the rules. You can't change that during a VS thread, but only during a CRT.

So I implore you all to read the profiles and base your arguments on them. Nothing will be changed during a VS thread.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Ok, I thought we finally fixed the Momo stuff a while ago, but the profile does say he is stronger then his teen profile.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ok, I thought we finally fixed the Momo stuff a while ago, but the profile does say he is stronger then his teen profile.

No, it doesn't.
Here's what the profile says about SPSM Adult Naruto's AP:

"Moon level with Six Paths Sage Mode (Far stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last")"
No comparison is made to his teen self.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No, stop saying that he does. It's not accepted, and is NOT on the profiles currently. We work off of the profiles in VS battles.

Only the Rasenshuriken negates durability, and Naruto can't negate regeneration, only slow it down somewhat.

He does not. Madara is far more experienced (given his age and knowledge), and has been fighting for far longer than Naruto. His taijutsu skill is at least just as good.

He doesn't resist the IT.

"Yeah I'm moving onto another point because I know you're not gonna listen to Momoshiki>Kaguya (despite it being true). The Toneri moon slice calc is about 200 exatons, and half of the ct calc is about 200 exatons. Madara scales to the latter (according to his profile), while Momoshiki scales well above the former. More than twice as much in fact, considering Kinshiki>Toneri via somewhat fighting Sasuke who is considered far above BSM Naruto and Toneri. And Momoshiki absorbed all of Kinshiki's power, who he's superior to. That means Momoshiki is over 400 exatons. And Naruto scales above Fused Momoshiki. So that means Naruto>>Madara."

"Even by this site's standards, that's not true. Teen Naruto is 201.71 exatons. Toneri is....wait a second. I just revisited the page and read it more carefully and saw that splitting the moon is 281 exatons. So....huh? Why isn't he Moon level+? Anyways, using the moving moon one, he's 199.26 exatons. So Teen SPSM Naruto and Toneri are almost equal. BSM Naruto is superior to Toneri. And Adult SPSM Naruto is "Far stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"). So basically means he's far stronger than Teen Naruto. Unless far stronger means about a 1% difference?"

And he can use the time Madara is regenerating to attack him and overwhelm him, incinerating him with a bunch of attacks, like an Asura Avatar double rasenshuriken.

I agree with experience, but idk about taijutsu, it's hard to say who's better between the two of them.

"Naruto wasn't in his Kurama Avatar. Also Sasuke doesn't know all of Naruto's abilities. Also his eyes were open. As we saw, the damiyo's didn't get put under the IT until they opened their eyes. And with SPSM Naruto could easily fight with his eyes shut, like Kabuto. And he knows about the IT, so he'd likely do so."

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

No, they all scale to around 200 exatons. Both teen and adult Naruto upscale from BSM Naruto in the Last.
Boruto and Shippuden God tiers have no current scaling relationship beyond scaling above Toneri.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

The Toneri moon slice calc is about 200 exatons, and half of the ct calc is about 200 exatons.

You do know that the Moon Slice Calc was removed right? The 199.25 Exatons currently used is the Moon Moving Calc.

More than twice as much in fact, considering Kinshiki>Toneri via somewhat fighting Sasuke who is considered far above BSM Naruto and Toneri. And Momoshiki absorbed all of Kinshiki's power, who he's superior to. That means Momoshiki is over 400 exatons.

Currently not accepted which is why there is an ongoing CRT to get it accepted.

Toneri is....wait a second. I just revisited the page and read it more carefully and saw that splitting the moon is 281 exatons. So....huh? Why isn't he Moon level+?

Both Moon Slice Calcs are Removed.

 

[Loyd]

is adult naruto not accepted as stronger then teen naruto, in anyway?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

is adult naruto not accepted as stronger then teen naruto, in anyway?

Not at the moment, no.

 

[Loyd]

well shit madara slaps

 

[Galvino]

Can someone show proof that Kaguya's IT without the moon was aoe? How do we know for sure that she didn't just do it to one person at a time or something?

 

[theultimate5105]

pretty sure in the anime she just opened a portal to her dimension then reflected it off the moon but anime isn't canon

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No, they all scale to around 200 exatons. Both teen and adult Naruto upscale from BSM Naruto in the Last.
Boruto and Shippuden God tiers have no current scaling relationship beyond scaling above Toneri.

Teen Naruto: Stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"
Adult Naruto: Far stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You do know that the Moon Slice Calc was removed right? The 199.25 Exatons currently used is the Moon Moving Calc.

Currently not accepted which is why there is an ongoing CRT to get it accepted.

Both Moon Slice Calcs are Removed.

can you link the crt?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

can you link the crt?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/naruto-boruto-low-5-b-upscale.118905/

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Teen Naruto: Stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"
Adult Naruto: Far stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh yeah they are the same picture. Maybe if I cover part of the screen or close one of my eyes?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Teen Naruto: Stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"
Adult Naruto: Far stronger than his Kurama Sage Mode from "The Last"

I could literally go remove the "Far" from Adult Naruto, or add it to Teen Naruto rn, and it wouldn't change anything lol. The accepted scaling chain is that they both scale above the Last BSM Naruto by an unknown degree. Whoever applied the changes probably just made an oopsie.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I could literally go remove the "Far" from Adult Naruto, or add it to Teen Naruto rn, and it wouldn't change anything lol. The accepted scaling chain is that they both scale above the Last BSM Naruto by an unknown degree. Whoever applied the changes probably just made an oopsie.

Well alright, but Naruto still has access to boil release making him AP stomp Madara, and clashing with Kaguya, and this

and this

(probably more at full stamina)
and this

(pressured Kaguya so much she literally had to run away)

And at the very least Adult Naruto has more chakra to make clones since he got another half of Kurama.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

And at the very least Adult Naruto has more chakra to make clones since he got another half of Kurama.

That's all fine and dandy, but you're forgetting that literally everything you just referenced is extremely out of character for Adult Naruto. As in, he's never used any of these techniques, ever. Even clones, his bread and butter, don't get spammed nearly as much as they used to be.

Also, Madara isn't Kaguya. He may be weaker, but he's a lot more versatile. If Naruto starts overwhelming him with clones, Madara can simply respond with his own.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's all fine and dandy, but you're forgetting that literally everything you just referenced is extremely out of character for Adult Naruto. As in, he's never used any of these techniques, ever. Even clones, his bread and butter, don't get spammed nearly as much as they used to be.

Also, Madara isn't Kaguya. He may be weaker, but he's a lot more versatile. If Naruto starts overwhelming him with clones, Madara can simply respond with his own.

Because he's nerfed/PIS. It's in Naruto's character, so it's in Adult Naruto's character. That's the logic you used for EMS Sasuke compared to Hebi Sasuke right?

Madara has never made more than 25 clones even as an edo. Now for MADARA it's really not in character to use clones. He'll probably use limbo, which will be dealt with easily by a dozen clones, 3 for each. And Naruto has more on panel jutsu showings than Six Paths Madara.

 

[Galvino]

It is much more in character for Naruto to use his signature move rather than Madara who did it once to prove a point and play around with the Kage. Even if Madara does choose to make clones, I doubt he could make more than Naruto who we saw make hundreds in the first episode of the show.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It is much more in character for Naruto to use his signature move rather than Madara who did it once to prove a point and play around with the Kage. Even if Madara does choose to make clones, I doubt he could make more than Naruto who we saw make hundreds in the first episode of the show.

1000 actually

 

[MinatoSparkle]

By the way, hasn't grace been over for a while now?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

By the way, hasn't grace been over for a while now?

IIRC it needs to be 24 Hrs. How many hours has it been since Grace?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

IIRC it needs to be 24 Hrs. How many hours has it been since Grace?

more than that. The 7th vote 3+ more than Madara's votes was before 1:20 PM.

Also I just remembered. This isn't SPSM Naruto. It's Hokage Naruto. So he could actually go Baryon Mode and blitz stomp Madara. Why are people voting for him again?

 

[MrKerf]

We are technically still discussing it.

You can go ahead and add it, if you want. It will be deleted pretty fast though. My prediction.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

We are technically still discussing it.

You can go ahead and add it, if you want. It will be deleted pretty fast though. My prediction.

True, but if someone else votes for Madara after grace was over, that won't make it inconclusive right?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Because he's nerfed/PIS. It's in Naruto's character, so it's in Adult Naruto's character. That's the logic you used for EMS Sasuke compared to Hebi Sasuke right?

The difference is that EMS Sasuke is literally the same Sasuke, but a few weeks later lol. Not to mention, he has used genjutsu A LOT in his Taka/EMS/Rinnegan selves, showing that it's simply something super in character for him during Shippuden in general.
That's not at all the same as saying that Adult Naruto will randomly pull out moves and tactics he hasn't used in a decade+, even when it would've been extremely beneficial to him in high stakes, life or death situations.

Madara has never made more than 25 clones even as an edo. Now for MADARA it's really not in character to use clones. He'll probably use limbo, which will be dealt with easily by a dozen clones, 3 for each. And Naruto has more on panel jutsu showings than Six Paths Madara.

Wood Clones are inherently superior to shadow clones, so 25 clones isn't something to scoff at. It won't match a 1000 clones in sheer numerical value, but it'll even the odds a bit more. Additionally, Madara can spam CTs to deal with a bunch of the clones, or at least distract them.

In any case, again, it's really not in character for Adult Naruto to spam clones. He can do it, he should do it, but he never does. I hate it as much as the next guy, but it's how it is.

 

[MrKerf]

True, but if someone else votes for Madara after grace was over, that won't make it inconclusive right?

It doesn't matter, since we are not sure about the validity of some votes. Plus if they will be debunked the same thing will happen.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The difference is that EMS Sasuke is literally the same Sasuke, but a few weeks later lol. Not to mention, he has used genjutsu A LOT in his Taka/EMS/Rinnegan selves, showing that it's simply something super in character for him during Shippuden in general.
That's not at all the same as saying that Adult Naruto will randomly pull out moves and tactics he hasn't used in a decade+, even when it would've been extremely beneficial to him in high stakes, life or death situations.

Wood Clones are inherently superior to shadow clones, so 25 clones isn't something to scoff at. It won't match a 1000 clones in sheer numerical value, but it'll even the odds a bit more. Additionally, Madara can spam CTs to deal with a bunch of the clones, or at least distract them.

In any case, again, it's really not in character for Adult Naruto to spam clones. He can do it, he should do it, but he never does. I hate it as much as the next guy, but it's how it is.

You really underestimate the time between the start and end of Shippuden. Naruto was 15 at the start of Shippuden, and 17 at the end. So there's 1-2 years between Hebi and EMS Sasuke. And Naruto does still use shadow clones in Boruto, just not as much.

Teleporting a chidori into Naruto's body would've been very useful too, but he didn't do that in their final battle, so I guess he can't use that in a versus battle despite him doing it against Madara?

Are they though? Wood clones are stated to divide chakra evenly, whereas shadow clones are only a slightly weaker summoning. And there are 100 times more shadow clones Naruto can make than Madara can wood clones. 25 isn't gonna do a thing, especially since far inferior characters to Madara could deal with wood clone susanoos. Also we've seen Naruto alone can deal with multiple cts, so that's gonna be nothing to thousands of shadow clones. Naruto can also follow Madara into the sky now that he knows he can fly so Madara can't sneak off to use the IT.

He has tho. Like against Shin. and in his duties as Hokage or to catch Boruto.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

So there's 1-2 years between Hebi and EMS Sasuke.

You do realize UchihaSlayer96 specified Taka Sasuke, Akatsuki Sasuke, or MS Sasuke right?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You do realize UchihaSlayer96 specified Taka Sasuke, Akatsuki Sasuke, or MS Sasuke right?

He never placed a bijuu under genjutsu in those forms, which is what we're discussing.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You really underestimate the time between the start and end of Shippuden. Naruto was 15 at the start of Shippuden, and 17 at the end. So there's 1-2 years between Hebi and EMS Sasuke.

The events of the 5 Kage Summit happened a few weeks after Sasuke's fight with Itachi. Then he got the EMS immediately after. It's not a long stretch of time, at all.
In any case, how does that even change anything about what I said, anyway? My point was that at every point in the series, and regardless of the form, Sasuke has cinconsistently used genjutsu throughout Shippuden. This makes it objectively very in character for him to use in combat.

And Naruto does still use shadow clones in Boruto, just not as much.

That's........precisely my point.

Teleporting a chidori into Naruto's body would've been very useful too, but he didn't do that in their final battle, so I guess he can't use that in a versus battle despite him doing it against Madara?

It's funny that you mention this, because he literally did lol. It just didn't have any effect on Naruto, so he probably opted not to waste any more chakra on a pointless tactic.

Are they though? Wood clones are stated to divide chakra evenly, whereas shadow clones are only a slightly weaker summoning. And there are 100 times more shadow clones Naruto can make than Madara can wood clones. 25 isn't gonna do a thing, especially since far inferior characters to Madara could deal with wood clone susanoos. Also we've seen Naruto alone can deal with multiple cts, so that's gonna be nothing to thousands of shadow clones. Naruto can also follow Madara into the sky now that he knows he can fly so Madara can't sneak off to use the IT.

He has tho. Like against Shin. and in his duties as Hokage or to catch Boruto.

I'm not gonna waste any more time and effort arguing about the semantics of this. You yourself admitted that Naruto simply doesn't utilize clone spam as effectively or as often as he used to in his youth. This is a simple fact. If you want to disregard that, feel free to do so, but I will stand by stance that it's out of character for him, because it is.

 

[Galvino]

Wait, if someone's reasoning for voting is debunked, the vote doesn't count? I thought it just had to be within reason

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The events of the 5 Kage Summit happened a few weeks after Sasuke's fight with Itachi. Then he got the EMS immediately after. It's not a long stretch of time, at all.
In any case, how does that even change anything about what I said, anyway? My point was that at every point in the series, and regardless of the form, Sasuke has cinconsistently used genjutsu throughout Shippuden. This makes it objectively very in character for him to use in combat.

That's........precisely my point.

It's funny that you mention this, because he literally did lol. It just didn't have any effect on Naruto, so he probably opted not to waste any more chakra on a pointless tactic.

I'm not gonna waste any more time and effort arguing about the semantics of this. You yourself admitted that Naruto simply doesn't utilize clone spam as effectively or as often as he used to in his youth. This is a simple fact. If you want to disregard that, feel free to do so, but I will stand by stance that it's out of character for him, because it is.

So...? The only time Sasuke used genjutsu on Kurama was far prior to the events of Sasuke's fight with Itachi. And my point is that he uses genjutsu in combat, but he doesn't use it on Kurama inside Naruto while also using it on Naruto.

But removing plot nerf and PIS he will use it.

No he didn't teleport it INSIDE Naruto like he did to Madara.

He could do that at any point to injure Naruto, but he didn't.

I don't see what the difference is between PIS in Boruto and Naruto. It's PIS in both cases.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wait, if someone's reasoning for voting is debunked, the vote doesn't count? I thought it just had to be within reason

If it's debunked or incorrect, then how is it still within reason at that point XD?

 

[Loyd]

l o l sasuke should just teleport his sword into every opponents skull, my vote was changed to madara btw

 

[Galvino]

you right, I meant more like if something is more unlikely compared to other arguments

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So...? The only time Sasuke used genjutsu on Kurama was far prior to the events of Sasuke's fight with Itachi. And my point is that he uses genjutsu in combat, but he doesn't use it on Kurama inside Naruto while also using it on Naruto.

So you agree that using genjutsu is in character for him.
You also admit that it's something he's been able to do with an inferior Dojutsu.
I think we've said all we needed to, and can just let people come to their own conclusions on this one.

But removing plot nerf and PIS he will use it.

Him acting stupidly once or twice would be reasonable for us to brush aside as simple PIS and plot. But him ALWAYS acting that way? Nah, that's just his standard tactics at that point. Is it influenced by bad writing? Absolutely, but everything in Boruto is badly written, so we might as well ignore it all then?
I'm personally against giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying that he'll pull out his Teen self's tactics and creativity when he's never showcased the willingness or tendency to use in character.
If you feel otherwise, that's fine. Again, I feel like it's something we can let the other voters come to their personal conclusions on.

No he didn't teleport it INSIDE Naruto like he did to Madara.

He could do that at any point to injure Naruto, but he didn't.

He didn't teleport it inside Madara lol. He switched places with his sword when Madara was already rushing towards him, and Madara simply ran into the blade and got stabbed. Sasuke can't teleport anything into anyone. That's not how his ability works.

I don't see what the difference is between PIS in Boruto and Naruto. It's PIS in both cases.

I personally think that's just the norm for Boruto, but to each their own I suppose.

 

[Galvino]

It's so lame for a vs match to take place and characters aren't using their full power (when we know 100% they can do so) because of stupidity on a plot level. Like why even have the match?