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The Transduality/Nonduality page revision has been accepted now:
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It is worth noting that the Overvoid has been explicitly called "nondual" in the comic. But if it doesn't qualify for our standards I suppose that's mootso I would argue that the Overvoid doesn't even qualify for nonduality.
It may be nondual with itself, but it still forms a duality with the flaw. If it were nondual by our standards, the flaw wouldn't even be a threat to it.It is worth noting that the Overvoid has been explicitly called "nondual" in the comic. But if it doesn't qualify for our standards I suppose that's moot
The flaw isn’t a threat to the Overvoid and it’s not in a duality with the Overvoid either.It may be nondual with itself, but it still forms a duality with the flaw. If it were nondual by our standards, the flaw wouldn't even be a threat to it.
Both of those things are directly stated within the comic, so that's wrong.The flaw isn’t a threat to the Overvoid and it’s not in a duality with the Overvoid either.
This is pretty overtly headcanon. The whole purpose for the Orrery being created was to stop it from spreading further.The usage of “damage” is not literal
That’s part of what I said. The orrery was created by Monitor Mind to limit its growth.Both of those things are directly stated within the comic, so that's wrong.
This is pretty overtly headcanon. The whole purpose for the Orrery being created was to stop it from spreading further.
Right, but this is made up. You're painting a completely different picture.- “…it contained it within a concept so it could grow under a stricter guidance
No the picture I painted was actually very accurate. We know from the comics the Overvoid is a mega-mind, an immense awareness without limits or definition, an abstract infinite intelligence which the Multiverse is growing inside of. Morrison thought of the Overvoid as “God” and to Morrison the universe is just a thought God is thinking.Right, but this is made up. You're painting a completely different picture.
The flaw was a wound that the Overvoid used the "Orrery" to essentially cauterize. Grant Morrison literally likened it to a cage around a wild animal. It was a real and present danger to the Overvoid. I completely reject any and all gymnastics meant to obfuscate that reality just to claim the Overvoid is more powerful than it actually is.
I agree with this. The Overvoid is in itself a duality with the flaw which is said to be everything that the Overvoid is not and after the emergence of the flaw, the Overvoid needed to contain it to contain its propagation, which says a lot. If this thread is accepted, we should add a footnote on the Monitor-Mind The Overvoid page explaining why it does not qualify for non-duality despite all these statements describing the Overvoid as non-dual.It may be nondual with itself, but it still forms a duality with the flaw. If it were nondual by our standards, the flaw wouldn't even be a threat to it.
Agreed. @Antvasima does the above sound good to you? Me, Elizio, and Lawyer are in agreement.I agree with this. The Overvoid is in itself a duality with the flaw which is said to be everything that the Overvoid is not and after the emergence of the flaw, the Overvoid needed to contain it to contain its propagation, which says a lot. If this thread is accepted, we should add a footnote on the Monitor-Mind The Overvoid page explaining why it does not qualify for non-duality despite all these statements describing the Overvoid as non-dual.
I think the issue isn't so much that the Overvoid isn't nondual, but rather that it does not meet our sites standards for the ability page, given that it exists as part of a duality with the flaw (Monitor defined itself in relation to the flaw, the flaw is everything perfection is not) and is affected by it.I personally think that the Overvoid is clearly intended to be nondual, and that the "threat" from the flaw was simply the symbolism of chaos, disharmony, madness, and corruption placed on a white canvas of perfection.
I don't think this is what is reflected in the comic. Overvoid was said to have "no defenses" and no conception of the damage "story" could do to it, and made the Orrery to prevent it from spreading further.The Overvoid isn't affected by the flaw. It just find the flaw personally disturbing
Well, the Non Duality part is very hard to read and practically dosen't explain anything at all. We should explain what EXACTLY qualifies and dosen't to be Non dual.Well, @DontTalkDT kept not responding there for months, so we eventually had no choice but to accept the revision in question.
However, we split nonduality and transduality for our instruction page regarding the concepts. I did not think that we changed our standards for transduality, but rather did just add nonduality as an alternative.
Please explain if Ihave misunderstood.
Ignoring the weird back and forth about Tier 0 Overvoid, it wouldn't be Transduality but it is Nonduality. Or at least it being nondual is the intention of the staff thread, as it is intended to be outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them.What do you think about this?
Well, the Overvoid is non-dual but like Deagonx said, it doesn't meet our wiki's standards. The Overvoid is indeed outside the norms of duality but is not qualitatively superior to them and can be affected by them and form a duality with the flaw.I personally think that the Overvoid is clearly intended to be nondual, and that the "threat" from the flaw was simply the symbolism of chaos, disharmony, madness, and corruption placed on a white canvas of perfection.
you need qualitative superiority for transduality, not nondualityWell, the Overvoid is non-dual but like Deagonx said, it doesn't meet our wiki's standards. The Overvoid is indeed outside the norms of duality but is not qualitatively superior to them and can be affected by them and form a duality with the flaw.
Wouldn’t containing all dual concepts within oneself be a form of transduality? I’m asking because during Final Crisis, The Source which Grant equated with the Overvoid during Final Crisis was given this description.Ignoring the weird back and forth about Tier 0 Overvoid, it wouldn't be Transduality but it is Nonduality. Or at least it being nondual is the intention of the staff thread, as it is intended to be outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them.
Ignoring the weird back and forth about Tier 0 Overvoid, it wouldn't be Transduality but it is Nonduality. Or at least it being nondual is the intention of the staff thread, as it is intended to be outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them.
Pet the staff thread's premise, something "outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them" would still be immune to those binary effects unless some power actively forced them on it. The Overvoid doesn't seem to qualify for that.you need qualitative superiority for transduality, not nonduality
i think transduality can be replaced with nonduality instead for overvoid
If they are qualitatively superior to these concepts as a result, i don't see why not.Wouldn’t containing all dual concepts within oneself be a form of transduality? I’m asking because during Final Crisis, The Source which Grant equated with the Overvoid during Final Crisis was given this description.
In DC’s Kid Eternity written by Grant, we’d also get a reference to how there was this pure realm of being from which everything condensed out of. And that the first fall was from non duality into duality.
That is precisely why Monitor Mind doesn't have non-duality as we understand it on the wiki.
"Once, nothing and everything were the same thing -- And then! An imperceptible flaw is discovered in a hitherto immaculate perfection. A Flaw that "is" Everything Perfection is Not. Defining its relationship to THE FLAW, Perfection names itself MONITOR-MIND the OVER-VOID."
The Overvoid was non-dual even after the flaw came into existence. We know this because it’s consistently regarded as such even after the flaw emerged. Additionally Grant would directly say that beyond the crumbling ledge in Nil, all dual concepts don’t exist anymore and it’s just all non dual Monitor Mind.That is precisely why Monitor Mind doesn't have non-duality as we understand it on the wiki.
The "immaculate perfection" prior to the flaw isn't actually the Overvoid. For all intents and purposes we can recognize it as the same thing, but the crucial difference is that perfection only became "Monitor Mind the Overvoid" as a result of defining itself in relation to the flaw.
The full text of the Overvoid's origin story makes this abundantly clear:
- Hitherto: Until now.
The immaculate perfection was likely nondual or could be called that, maybe even by our standards. That was in the past, when nothing and everything were the same thing. The flaw changes that. The flaw very directly and explicitly altered the white void, rendering it no longer immaculate, resulting in it naming itself in relationship to the flaw, which is everything that perfection isn't. Now, nothing and everything aren't the same thing. The flaw is everything, the void is nothing. This is the duality that Overvoid is part of.
Labels are not more important than practical details. The same way that Darkseid being called "omnipotent" is essentially meaningless in the face of the clear practical information that demonstrates that whatever notion of "omnipotence" he enjoys is too far removed from the traditional understanding to matter.The Overvoid was non-dual regardless of the flaws existence. We know this because it’s consistently regarded as such even after the flaw emerged. Additionally Grant would directly say that beyond the crumbling ledge in Nil, all dual concepts don’t exist anymore and it’s just all non dual Monitor Mind.
As per the above analogy, you're essentially saying "the comic called it Non-Dual and so did the author, so any argument or reasoning meant to establish otherwise is automatically incorrect." This is not a good argument, as it would be identical to saying "the comic called Darkseid omnipotent, so any argument or reasoning meant to say otherwise is automatically incorrect."So if you’re trying to say the Overvoid naming itself the Overvoid after the flaw emerged within its mind, somehow brought it from non-duality into duality you’re wrong.
It’s not just a label, we even get an explanations to the way in which it’s non-dual, which would actually land a form of non-duality on the wiki. I’ve explained why the Multiversity origin story doesn’t negate anything and that the only way to come to the conclusion you’re trying to raise is if we only look at one scan and ignore all the other scans/information and context pertaining to the Overvoid. And all that evidence I posted supporting this went entirely unaddressed.Labels are not more important than practical details. The same way that Darkseid being called "omnipotent" is essentially meaningless in the face of the clear practical information that demonstrates that whatever notion of "omnipotence" he enjoys is too far removed from the traditional understanding to matter.
I recognize that the Overvoid is referred to as non-dual in the comics, and that Grant said it was non-dual, but the text in the comic itself explaining the Overvoid's backstory and relationship with the flaw negates this in a similar vein to the Darkseid analogy.
As per the above analogy, you're essentially saying "the comic called it Non-Dual and so did the author, so any argument or reasoning meant to establish otherwise is automatically incorrect." This is not a good argument, as it would be identical to saying "the comic called Darkseid omnipotent, so any argument or reasoning meant to say otherwise is automatically incorrect."
Rather, the more appropriate conclusion is that what Grant meant by "non-dual" is just different than what we use in our wiki standards. This does not make it invalid, per se, but it does mean that we wouldn't include such an ability on the profile. The discussion we are having is not "is the Overvoid non-dual" but rather "does the Overvoid meet the criteria established in the ability page" which it does not. The fact that it was called non-dual does nothing to change that.
Isn't that what happened though? Duality being actively forced on it and causing the error of the multiverse.binary effects unless some power actively forced them on it. The Overvoid doesn't seem to qualify for that.
What forced it on it?Isn't that what happened though? Duality being actively forced on it and causing the error of the multiverse.
Something, considering at one point it was just there. If we're including other stories than it's the Presence or the Hands.What forced it on it?
Isn't that what happened though? Duality being actively forced on it and causing the error of the multiverse.
What forced it on it?
"Once, nothing and everything were the same thing -- And then! An imperceptible flaw is discovered in a hitherto immaculate perfection. A Flaw that "is" Everything Perfection is Not. Defining its relationship to THE FLAW, Perfection names itself MONITOR-MIND the OVER-VOID."
"Previously! There was Monitor only! And then! Then is a flaw found at the heart of monitor perfection. Monitor makes a concept to contain the flaw."
I thought that the point of our recent Nonduality/Transduality revision was to define nonduality in the conventional manner whereas transduality should be kept as something transcending duality.Well, the Overvoid is non-dual but like Deagonx said, it doesn't meet our wiki's standards. The Overvoid is indeed outside the norms of duality but is not qualitatively superior to them and can be affected by them and form a duality with the flaw.
That is my viewpoint as well.Ignoring the weird back and forth about Tier 0 Overvoid, it wouldn't be Transduality but it is Nonduality. Or at least it being nondual is the intention of the staff thread, as it is intended to be outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them.
That is the case. Transduality is qualitative superiority to duality, whereas Nonduality is being outside duality without transcending it. However, in the case of the Overvoid the clearly defined duality between it and the Flaw means it's neither of those things.I thought that the point of our recent Nonduality/Transduality revision was to define nonduality in the conventional manner whereas transduality should be kept as something transcending duality.
Once, nothing and everything were the same thing -- And then! An imperceptible flaw is discovered in a hitherto immaculate perfection. A Flaw that "is" Everything Perfection is Not. Defining its relationship to THE FLAW, Perfection names itself MONITOR-MIND the OVER-VOID.
If the Overvoid named itself after the flaw then it would only qualify for Type 1 Nonduality, if at all.What do you think, Qawsedf234?