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The Transduality/Nonduality page revision has been accepted now:
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Remove Transduality from Monitor-Mind The Overvoid
- Thread starter Elizio33
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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@Elizio33 @Deagonx Reading the OP's argument, though nonduality doesn't require qualitative superiority to duality, a nondual character is still supposed to be immune to the dualities involved unless some power actively bestows them on them, so I would argue that the Overvoid doesn't even qualify for nonduality.
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It is worth noting that the Overvoid has been explicitly called "nondual" in the comic. But if it doesn't qualify for our standards I suppose that's moot
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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It may be nondual with itself, but it still forms a duality with the flaw. If it were nondual by our standards, the flaw wouldn't even be a threat to it.
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The flaw isn’t a threat to the Overvoid and it’s not in a duality with the Overvoid either.
In the Multiversity scan, what the Overvoid called the schism was not itself and the flaw but the two beings that were in conflict with one another, Monitor and Anti Monitor.
In the Final Crisis scan stating the Overvoid had “no precedent for the concept “story” and no understanding of the damage story might do to an immense awareness without limits or definition.” The usage of “damage” is not literal, it’s not saying the flaw can beat up the Overvoid or something. It’s talking about how due to the thought of stories being like a scary thing for the Overvoid to imagine and think about, it contained it within a concept so it could grow under a stricter guidance.
Hence why it’s called Monitor Mind the Overvoid and it’s described as this non dual pure “supermind” or infinite awareness without limits or definition, that functions as like the ground of being for DC and can resolve all thoughts and contradictions within itself.
This also leads into why the Monitors were created by it to function as an interface between itself and the multiverse and also to monitor the multiverse and restrict its growth.
All of this is further explained in Grant Morrisons interviews btw.
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Both of those things are directly stated within the comic, so that's wrong.
This is pretty overtly headcanon. The whole purpose for the Orrery being created was to stop it from spreading further.
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That’s part of what I said. The orrery was created by Monitor Mind to limit its growth.
- “…it contained it within a concept so it could grow under a stricter guidance.”
So I don’t know why you’re claiming what I’m saying is headcanon when what you just said doesn’t conflict with the point I’m making.
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Right, but this is made up. You're painting a completely different picture.
The flaw was a wound that the Overvoid used the "Orrery" to essentially cauterize. Grant Morrison literally likened it to a cage around a wild animal. It was a real and present danger to the Overvoid. I completely reject any and all gymnastics meant to obfuscate that reality just to claim the Overvoid is more powerful than it actually is.
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No the picture I painted was actually very accurate. We know from the comics the Overvoid is a mega-mind, an immense awareness without limits or definition, an abstract infinite intelligence which the Multiverse is growing inside of. Morrison thought of the Overvoid as “God” and to Morrison the universe is just a thought God is thinking.
Morrison - “god’ is no more, no less, than the sum total of all matter, all energy, all consciousness, as experienced or conceptualized from a timeless perspective where everything ever seems to be present all at once. ‘God’ is in everything, all the time and can be found there by looking carefully. The entire universe, including the scary, evil bits, is a thought ‘God’ is thinking, right now.
There’s more statements and evidence like this but I don’t think it’s necessary to post all of it.
I digress, yes the Overvoid was scared of the flaw and yadayada, however my previous post in response to Idiosyncratic already takes this account and explains why the Overvoid still isn’t capable of being harmed by the flaw in a literal sense. The Overvoid is a supermind imagining things like the Monitors into existence and the flaw is just an infinitesimal thought within its mind. So it wouldn’t make any sense in this context to interpret the word “damage” as some type of physical injury suffered from something being attacked given what we know about the Overvoid, the flaw, and how they relate to each other.
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I agree with this. The Overvoid is in itself a duality with the flaw which is said to be everything that the Overvoid is not and after the emergence of the flaw, the Overvoid needed to contain it to contain its propagation, which says a lot. If this thread is accepted, we should add a footnote on the Monitor-Mind The Overvoid page explaining why it does not qualify for non-duality despite all these statements describing the Overvoid as non-dual.
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Agreed. @Antvasima does the above sound good to you? Me, Elizio, and Lawyer are in agreement.
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I personally think that the Overvoid is clearly intended to be nondual, and that the "threat" from the flaw was simply the symbolism of chaos, disharmony, madness, and corruption placed on a white canvas of perfection.
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I think the issue isn't so much that the Overvoid isn't nondual, but rather that it does not meet our sites standards for the ability page, given that it exists as part of a duality with the flaw (Monitor defined itself in relation to the flaw, the flaw is everything perfection is not) and is affected by it.
It's just a form of nonduality that isn't really compatible with our standards.
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The Overvoid isn't affected by the flaw. It just find the flaw personally disturbing, and the flaw is simply contained as an infinitely small speck within The Overvoid, much like the entere material reality is contained within Nirvana. That does not seem to disqualify it from being transdual.
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I don't think this is what is reflected in the comic. Overvoid was said to have "no defenses" and no conception of the damage "story" could do to it, and made the Orrery to prevent it from spreading further.
But if you disagree with me, Elizio, and Lawyer, we can call other staff to come to a more conclusive decision.
@Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus
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@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Maverick_Zero_X @Lonkitt @LordTracer @Alonik
What do you think about this?
What do you think about this?
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I know this isn't a thread for this but In GoW CRT people are arguing for Transdualism for Primordials.
vsbattles.com
All this non dualism bullshit just got worse by that "Transdualism should be Non dualism" staff Thread and i actually can't believe Staff agreed to it.
So aperently you don't need to R>F dualities to qualify for whatever reason.
Nonduality or Transduality for The Primordial - God of war
Soo... as the transduality already revised to nonduality in this thread, in here i want upgrade the primordial for get that ability The morpheus' realm is stated to be the other side of coin to the mortal dimension, morpheus function himself is to ensure the balance between imagination and...
All this non dualism bullshit just got worse by that "Transdualism should be Non dualism" staff Thread and i actually can't believe Staff agreed to it.
So aperently you don't need to R>F dualities to qualify for whatever reason.
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Well, @DontTalkDT kept not responding there for months, so we eventually had no choice but to accept the revision in question.
However, we split nonduality and transduality for our instruction page regarding the concepts. I did not think that we changed our standards for transduality, but rather did just add nonduality as an alternative.
Please explain if Ihave misunderstood.
However, we split nonduality and transduality for our instruction page regarding the concepts. I did not think that we changed our standards for transduality, but rather did just add nonduality as an alternative.
Please explain if Ihave misunderstood.
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Well, the Non Duality part is very hard to read and practically dosen't explain anything at all. We should explain what EXACTLY qualifies and dosen't to be Non dual.Well, @DontTalkDT kept not responding there for months, so we eventually had no choice but to accept the revision in question.
However, we split nonduality and transduality for our instruction page regarding the concepts. I did not think that we changed our standards for transduality, but rather did just add nonduality as an alternative.
Please explain if Ihave misunderstood.
For example, existing before all dualities isn't Non dualism and merging/destroying two opposing concepts isn't either. That's just AP for the second one and first one.... isn't anything.
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Ignoring the weird back and forth about Tier 0 Overvoid, it wouldn't be Transduality but it is Nonduality. Or at least it being nondual is the intention of the staff thread, as it is intended to be outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them.
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Looks good to me
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Well, the Overvoid is non-dual but like Deagonx said, it doesn't meet our wiki's standards. The Overvoid is indeed outside the norms of duality but is not qualitatively superior to them and can be affected by them and form a duality with the flaw.
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you need qualitative superiority for transduality, not nonduality
i think transduality can be replaced with nonduality instead for overvoid
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Wouldn’t containing all dual concepts within oneself be a form of transduality? I’m asking because during Final Crisis, The Source which Grant equated with the Overvoid during Final Crisis was given this description.
In DC’s Kid Eternity written by Grant, we’d also get a reference to how there was this pure realm of being from which everything condensed out of. And that the first fall was from non duality into duality.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Pet the staff thread's premise, something "outside of binary functions without being qualitatively superior to them" would still be immune to those binary effects unless some power actively forced them on it. The Overvoid doesn't seem to qualify for that.
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If they are qualitatively superior to these concepts as a result, i don't see why not.
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That is precisely why Monitor Mind doesn't have non-duality as we understand it on the wiki.
The "immaculate perfection" prior to the flaw isn't actually the Overvoid. For all intents and purposes we can recognize it as the same thing, but the crucial difference is that perfection only became "Monitor Mind the Overvoid" as a result of defining itself in relation to the flaw.
The full text of the Overvoid's origin story makes this abundantly clear:
- Hitherto: Until now.
The immaculate perfection was likely nondual or could be called that, maybe even by our standards. That was in the past, when nothing and everything were the same thing. The flaw changes that. The flaw very directly and explicitly altered the white void, rendering it no longer immaculate, resulting in it naming itself in relationship to the flaw, which is everything that perfection isn't. Now, nothing and everything aren't the same thing. The flaw is everything, the void is nothing. This is the duality that Overvoid is part of.
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The Overvoid was non-dual even after the flaw came into existence. We know this because it’s consistently regarded as such even after the flaw emerged. Additionally Grant would directly say that beyond the crumbling ledge in Nil, all dual concepts don’t exist anymore and it’s just all non dual Monitor Mind.
So if you’re trying to say the Overvoid naming itself the Overvoid after the flaw emerged within its mind, somehow brought it from non-duality into some dual relationship with the flaw, you’re wrong.
I’ve already displayed with scans in my previous post that the Overvoid is an infinite abstract supermind resolving all contradictions within itself, and that the flaw was just a single infinitesimal thought that emerged in its head. When taking this information into account, the flaw could never be something equal to the Overvoid. To interpret the Overvoid the way you’re interpreting it, we would have to ignore not only the boatload of evidence that exist against what you’re claiming but we’d also have to completely twist what Grant was trying to get at with the Overvoid during Final Crisis and Multiversity.
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Labels are not more important than practical details. The same way that Darkseid being called "omnipotent" is essentially meaningless in the face of the clear practical information that demonstrates that whatever notion of "omnipotence" he enjoys is too far removed from the traditional understanding to matter.
I recognize that the Overvoid is referred to as non-dual in the comics, and that Grant said it was non-dual, but the text in the comic itself explaining the Overvoid's backstory and relationship with the flaw negates this in a similar vein to the Darkseid analogy.
As per the above analogy, you're essentially saying "the comic called it Non-Dual and so did the author, so any argument or reasoning meant to establish otherwise is automatically incorrect." This is not a good argument, as it would be identical to saying "the comic called Darkseid omnipotent, so any argument or reasoning meant to say otherwise is automatically incorrect."
Rather, the more appropriate conclusion is that what Grant meant by "non-dual" is just different than what we use in our wiki standards. This does not make it invalid, per se, but it does mean that we wouldn't include such an ability on the profile. The discussion we are having is not "is the Overvoid non-dual" but rather "does the Overvoid meet the criteria established in the ability page" which it does not. The fact that it was called non-dual does nothing to change that.
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It’s not just a label, we even get an explanations to the way in which it’s non-dual, which would actually land a form of non-duality on the wiki. I’ve explained why the Multiversity origin story doesn’t negate anything and that the only way to come to the conclusion you’re trying to raise is if we only look at one scan and ignore all the other scans/information and context pertaining to the Overvoid. And all that evidence I posted supporting this went entirely unaddressed.
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Isn't that what happened though? Duality being actively forced on it and causing the error of the multiverse.
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What forced it on it?
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Something, considering at one point it was just there. If we're including other stories than it's the Presence or the Hands.
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We aren't given a real answer for this in the comic. We have two versions of the backstory, and in both it simply "appears."
Morrison said the Overvoid and the Flaw is a metaphor for his view on how the white page might feel about having a story drawn on it, but it's not clear how literally we're meant to impose that upon the Overvoid. Williamson in his Dark Crisis run commandeered this origin story, so it's actually a bit obsolete at the moment if we eventually combine Williamson stuff into the Morrison/Snyder stuff.
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I thought that the point of our recent Nonduality/Transduality revision was to define nonduality in the conventional manner whereas transduality should be kept as something transcending duality.
If that is not the case, I think that we should reopen that discussion thread to let @DontTalkDT and myself take a look at it.
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That is my viewpoint as well.
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That is the case. Transduality is qualitative superiority to duality, whereas Nonduality is being outside duality without transcending it. However, in the case of the Overvoid the clearly defined duality between it and the Flaw means it's neither of those things.
The immaculate perfection, when "everything and nothing were the same thing" was non-dual in the way we recognize it on the wiki. Once the duality of the perfection vs the flaw, everything vs nothing, came into being it was no longer non-dual. As Grant said in Kid Eternity, "the first fall was from non-duality to duality."
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If the Overvoid named itself after the flaw then it would only qualify for Type 1 Nonduality, if at all.
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