Remove Transduality from Monitor-Mind The Overvoid

[MichaelJZero]

Also just to simplify this further.

Multiple authors and editors call the CAS all story. Every character and location and place in DC is part of story. CAS should be higher on the list than any single DC character with the context of being from DC comics meta.

The Absolute field of the Overvoid is nondual according to multiple interviews by the content creator, but other creators have removed that and went a different route, but wierdly, the scales are based on those other publications and not the original? But why?

The argument was that the Overvoid was harmed or could not stop the Flaw, yet its the nonthing that makes the thing that made the Flaw. It is mirrored in the Voidist preaching of how the Absolute Unmanifest field becomes self aware and ejects and makes possibile concepts out that then form their own sentience, one of them being the Creator god (this is explained in the videos I linked). The original argument here posted also fully ignored that the entire Flaw was INFINITESIMAL to the Overvoid, and the counter argumenet posted by the original poster claims the opposite of that. That is not what the comic and the authors showed.

Scalers are stuck on the false notion that DC is setup on hierarchy on the Christian viewpoint, but its not. It's based on the Kabbalah and Voidism from the Hinduist tangent viewpoint.

Your wiki entry even calls the Overvoid the Unmanifest field, after years or me telling you that is what it was, someone edited that in, but decided to also warp the entire Umanifest field hierarchy in the Voidism viewpoint despite that.

This is the same as saying a lesser angel is beyond Yahweh if you believe in the Bible. Take your pic. Jesus and Yahweh make angels and then I make a wiki that says some random angel is above Jesus and Yahweh. That is what vsbattles is currently doing with the respect level of the Kabbalah religion and the Voidism religion that over 500 million people in the world attest to on a daily basis.

 

[Joshn05]

Damn looks who's here.
@MichaelJZero
Anyways Michael, idk if you actually read the thread, but you're literally agreeing with the thread which I doubt was your intention. You posted a crap ton of statements saying non-dual and said yourself Overvoid is non-dual. The point of the thread is to change Overvoid to non-dual rather than trans-dual because they're not the same thing, which I don't think you're aware of.

Plus, use spoiler blocks and stop posting so much unrelated stuff like Overvoid being above everyone. That's not the topic of the thread smh.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Grant says Overvoid is nondual and that all concepts resolve to meaningless unity with the Void. This is Transduality described by the Author in the interviews

We rather have the comics also support this ideal. Which it's vaguely does not to mention it never mentioned transduality. These two are not synonymous because transduality is non-duality + transcendence.

It's nondual, from IGN's Final Crisis interview. Nondual...where concepts go to stop being concepts. Why are you removing titles and context?

Grant explaining the character in which the comics does not go into detail or even mention much of how Grant explained it shouldn't be a misnomer to you.

"How Overvoid couldn't stop it's growth?"

And the Overvoid immediately bottled all of it so nothing could get in or out except it's own investigator it sent down. The entire Flaw was rendered a moot point by the Overvoid. This isn't even opinion, or interpretation, its exactly what the comic page showed.

The Flaw wasn't rendered moot, it still was growing. For “study” it bottled it because it wasn't aware of what damage it could do.

You've said that Flaw was a real problem for the Overvoid, but it was the Overvoid that made it, condensing the stories out and on the Monitor Mind, but Grant says its the Overvoid condensing stories down without itself knowing. This is reflective of the Voidist religion that Final Crisis's hierarchy runs on, as the Absolute Void becomes self aware for a moment, and then makes the concepts of God, Creators, and Existence, Possibility, and so on. From there, the details are imposed upon the Void by those sentient concepts as the Void returns to being unmanifest.

Only partially true. The rest you're over exaggerating what Grant actually said.

If you want more on this, watch this video of a popular Voidist Yogi talking about it and explaining it.



The Difference between cosmic consciousness and God consciousness



The Absolute is the Void field, not the Creator God.

I did because you promoted this belief in so many forums in different sites.

lots more on this, if anyone wants more data on how Grant set this up based on the Voidist viewpoint, I'd be more than happy to talk more about it as I've studied this topic for the last 15 years or so.

You say the same thing gets debunked yet you recycle what you said.

Its the Overvoid running through its own ultimate story with the Flaw as a cast member at best.

It doesn't know what the story was and it was shocked that something could hinder its perfection. All Grant is saying is that there is a relationship between representatives that it sends from the story of the Multiverse. The story is also referenced on several occasions as the Multiverse.

Its the Overvoid condensing stories down and out of itself.

This doesn't say much.

"And its condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigagntic white space, self absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain, or mark, the DC Multiverse someone has drawn and it starts investigating."

Yeah and it was quite afraid of it.

The Overvoid is nondual in the Final Crisis lore, but not nondual in the other authores series so its fine that the ranks for the Overvoid are that low, but it makes no sense to also cripple the Cosmic Armor and Mandrakk also with lower rankings too. Especially the Armor. The Flaw = the Armor = the concept of story.

The Armor didn't exist until the after event of the first contact of the Probe with the Multiverse. Before the split, story, and existence already were.

Everything, the Flaw itself is Story personified to the Overvoid. Here, Grant cites the entire Flaw, all existence, as Story personified.

Says nothing about Armor being large Flaw.

The counter argument is that we should lower the power scale of the Overvoid because it could not stop the Flaw from expanding or growing or w/e the case is. This is invalid.

If it couldn't then there's some problem with it being so prestige nothing would harm or contradict it yet it happened.

The Overvoid's first point was the eject the corruption value out of itself and make that the Probe that would continue the investigation. This tiny infinitely small piece of itself (Mandrakk/Dax Novu) was able to freely invade the Flaw as much as it needed.

The Probe was specifically designed to blend in while it did it's investigation. Where did the Probe go? Everywhere. In The Silver City, In Hell, In Apocolypse, in New Genesis, in the lower voids, in Limbo, in a good chunk of the DC structure in the Orrery, so nothing stopped him.

The first environment it saw was stories of heroes and villains. We never formerly get that it went “everywhere.” Even then that doesn't say anything.

Corruption via bad values and ethics is what caused Dax to molt into Mandrakk. Data and knowledge itself is no inherently sentient in DC. There is no active portrayal of Data being sentient and overpowering the Overvoid or Dax Novu. So there is no reason to quash the Overvoid in FC's power rating.

Dax was corrupted by these stories and seeing this the Monitor had no defense in which action will occur next.

What Vsbattles needs to do is revise every major canon that uses the Overvoid and give each their own ranking. FC and Multiversity Overvoid should be the only Tier 0 as it is repeatedly explaining to be nondual and what condensed the stories of everything else out of itself.

Tier 0.....Ha! Scake him near someone like Buddha from WoD and maybe you could say that.

Story itself, all anything you can gather, every concept, energy, character, thing, nonthing = Story. And all of this was the Flaw.

Story = Multiverse and there are things outside the Multiverse(Orrery).

All of this infected the Overvoid with questions and speculations. Overvoid disliking this while it was sentient for a time doesn't mean the Flaw is superior or able to harm the Overvoid when the Overvoid bottled it entirely.

We never said it was superior. We said it had some contradiction when the Flaw came.

This says the Overvoid being in shock was what happened, it didn't know that lower emanations of itself that become tangents of the concept of God or Creation or Creators etc etc was the one micro detailing the Flaw.

The argument that knowledge was somehow harming the Overvoid is invalid for the following reasons

1. The Overvoid walled off the entire Flaw, effectively nullifying any problems after.

It didn't because after sending the Probe and even causing it to show that the Flaw was still an issue to it.

2. Ejected its own corruption off and made that the Probe to further investigate.

The corruption happened after it was already ejected. It was created within the surrounding of the Multiverse. Read the story.

3. Entire Flaw was going to be consumed by a tiny portion of itself, Mandrakk.

That would take time, technology, and assistance.

Mandrakk was made to go detail the Flaw and consume it. Here is Grant confirming.

Not absolute destruction and his first target was the Orrery which in the end he failed to destroy.

That entire Flaw was what infected the Overvoid, the Overvoid and the author call this Flaw the idea of Story.

Yes, captain obvious.

Just as Overvoid clips Dax out of itself and repurposed it to be an investigator and potential consumer of it all, the Overvoid opts to personify the Flaw's entire story as a suit of protective armor.

It doesn't know the nature behind the sentinel. It literally haunted it and the only thing we know of the Robot is speculation from the Monitor as well as Monitor species.

Its the Armor that infects the Overvoid
Its story that infects the Overvoid
Its the Flaw itself that infects the Overvoid

The Armor didn't exist when the Flaw first appeared. Stories long predate the Armor.

All three are different visuals of the same thing.

It haunted its knowledge but it never indicted it like stories did with the Flaw.

Why is this important? Its the literal road map for Voidism's religious view of how existence was formed.

That's a visual. There not in the Void.

The Flaw of existence was bottled.

The bottle and the Armor are seperate.

The Flaw of Existence is actually all Story

Within the Flaw, yes.

The Story of the complete edition of the Flaw, past, present, future, all possibility incarnate is then personified as a suit of armor called the Thought Robot.

The Flaw predated the Armor. Not to mention this being is visualized as Armor but in reality it's just a being sculpted by thoughts.

The Thought Robot = the Flaw = Story

Where do you come with these conclusion?

And Grant isn't the only one to have this exact viewpoint on the DC Structure. Mr. Orlando too says the same thing.

You recording what Orlando said. Not to mention his work is different from Grant's. This was during Metal area.

Example and more simplified

The Flaw is the Apple.

The Flaw has a story, a full story, whatever happens or doesn't happen, all possibility itself, the story of the apple is what infected the Overvoid.

Not this analogy.

Apple is now seen by the Overvoid to act as the security guard to make sure nothing in, nothing out. Repurposed the entire Flaw and now see's the entire story of the apple as this.

A Mech suit apple. A literal coping mechanism to make the Overvoid feel safer.

What?

Apple = Flaw = All story and all possibility = projected as a mechanical mech suit protector.

Weird metaphor for over-wanking Cosmic Armor.

That's how this works. The Flaw = Existence = Story = personified as a suit of armor that wrapped everything with a barrier.

The Armor is meant to protect Existence as theories by Monitors of Nil. They never mention it being everything.

Overvoid see's the Story as infecticious and annoying, so it visualized the story of the entire Flaw as a suit of armor.

Doesn't know about the Amror yet it visualized it, 101 logic!

Get it? Its not hard. This comic was made for young teens and most readers on YouTube got this, lots of other forums got this, lots of other debaters posted this same thing since 08'

Yeah, no.

But for some reason, all of this is now reinterpreted in a new subjective way that downplays the personification of all existence, the corruption of the Absolute, and the Absolute that contains Marvel and DC comics entirely.

He said the DC Multiverse is one of many bubbles. So this Flaw couldn't contain other Creation.

Jar = all story, including all DC and Marvel and beyond = the Flaw = personified as a mech suit

It's a body awoken of pure thought that happened as a result of the split. The Flaw predates both Dax and Thought Robot.

Jar contained everything that ever was in DC.

The DC Multiverse.

Jar is Existence, all Existence

He literally explains what context would “everything” would be referring to. His last sentence sums it up.

I think a map of everything in the DC Universe is not truly feasible.

Existence is what the nil monitors study from the outside that's in a jar

Yet things can contain it on several reality ie. House of Heroes and Nil.

6th Dimension is the edge of the new Existence factor of DC's Structure and doesn't include what is outside of the DC section of the original Orrery of Worlds

It exists outside Monitor Sphere and in Monitor Sphere we see the Jar, which contains the 52 set worlds.

The Source is the Ain Sophh Aur, and you rank it higher than the Overvoid. Grant said twice that the Source of DC is the Ain Sophh Aurr, and that is about 3 levels below the Unified Umanifest Field on the Kabbalah map. And that field is the Overvoid.

Both theories are not related.

Your entire structure needs revision and I am more than happy to help.

No thanks!

 

[Tarang123]

Multiple authors and editors call the CAS all story. Every character and location and place in DC is part of story. CAS should be higher on the list than any single DC character with the context of being from DC comics meta.

The wiki focuses specifically on what's supported by the story. The story doesn't support your narrative.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The wiki focuses specifically on what's supported by the story. The story doesn't support your narrative.

Not to mention none of the authors actually claim this.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ya, the moment I see reasonings enter the realm of Twitter dms, religious videos, and Wiki pages, I just say nope.

 

[MichaelJZero]

The wiki focuses specifically on what's supported by the story. The story doesn't support your narrative.

When I post scans directly from the comic that showcase this, how is that not supported in the comic? That's just denial at its finest, my friend. Here are all the reasons why what you said doesn't work in an actual evidence based discussion.

The Flaw is everything the Overvoid isn't. So everything not the Overvoid, is either the flaw itself, or in the Flaw.

The entire DC Comics structure and Marvel, and more, are in the Flaw. This map appeared in the Multiversity comic, and it was detailed by the other later as legitimate Marvel Earth 8, and legitmate Image comics Earth 41. Your rankings claim that entities that contain the entire meta of a continuity are in the 1C tier.

Hers is the current rendition of Tier 0

Characters or objects that can affect structures which completely exceed the logical foundations of High 1-A, much like it exceeds the ones defining 1-A and below, meaning that all possible levels of High 1-A are exceeded, even an infinite or uncountably amount of such levels. This tier has no endpoint, and can be extended to any higher level just like the ones above.

Being "omnipotent" or any similar reasoning is not nearly enough to reach this tier on its own; however, such statements can be used as supporting evidence in conjunction with more substantial information.

Lets tackle this line by line.

Characters or objects that can affect structures which completely exceed the logical foundations of High 1-A,

Logical foundations of high 1-A.

A concrete example of such a structure would be an inaccessible cardinal, which in simple terms is a number so large that it cannot be reached ("accessed") by smaller numbers, and as such has to be "assumed" to exist in order to be made sense of or defined in a formal context (Unlike the standard aleph numbers, which can be straightforwardly put together using the building blocks of set theory). Even just the amount of infinite cardinals between the first inaccessible cardinal and aleph-2 (Which defines 1-A) is greater than cardinals such as aleph-0, aleph-1, aleph-2, aleph-3, etc., and even many aleph numbers whose index is an infinite ordinal.. More information on the concept is available on this page.

Inaccessable cardinal is achieved by the unified field as a direct definition of said theory in M-theory, as governed and overseen by the worlds smartest physics scientist, Edward Witten.

Unified field theory | physics

unified field theory,, in particle physics, an attempt to describe all fundamental forces and the relationships between elementary particles in terms of a single theoretical framework. In physics, forces can be described by fields that mediate interactions between separate objects. In the...

www.britannica.com

This theory, the field itself, is the collection of every theory, and what Hawking was chasing his entire life, a theory to unify everything and answer every theory with a single viewpoint. Your cardinals are just one theorum showcased within the physics spectrum, all overseen by the unified field theory itself. So right there, without going further, Overvoid in Final Crisis scales to at the very least, high 1A. You cannot deny this unless you are rewriting popular physics definitions or just ignoring them completely, Tarang.

Part 2 of High 1A value

and as such has to be "assumed" to exist in order to be made sense of or defined in a formal context

The Overvoid is nondual, where the full sum of all theory stops having meaning and becomes totally meaningless. Any and all values and defintions stop, yet you are saying no to this and scaling the inaccessable Void of nothingness where all concepts and physics stop. This is the very definition of the field, you cannot go to it. There is no going to it. Its a value that concepts, ideas, and matter, cannot exist in. So it achieves a second reaffirmation of high 1A value and we've not even gotten out of the 1A definition yet and into Tier 0.

Part 3

Even just the amount of infinite cardinals between the first inaccessible cardinal and aleph-2 (Which defines 1-A) is greater than cardinals such as aleph-0, aleph-1, aleph-2, aleph-3, etc., and even many aleph numbers whose index is an infinite ordinal.. More information on the concept is available on this page.

Direct from Einstein himself explaining this.

Its an impossible outreach of aleph values, exept his term isn't aleph because that term wasn't popular back them. The set value cannot be obtained. So the Overvoid reaches high 1A scale 3 times with three pieces of evidence. I'm legit not going to post the wall of text from thousands of other scientists who say the field is a total nondual value container where the concept of aleph values has no meaning what so ever. You cannot deny this if you've taken a physics course, and I believe you told me on Quora that you have so you should be the first to agree to this.


Back to Tier 0

Characters or objects that can affect structures which completely exceed the logical foundations of High 1-A, much like it exceeds the ones defining 1-A and below, meaning that all possible levels of High 1-A are exceeded, even an infinite or uncountably amount of such levels.

I just gave you 3 examples of this and Einstein was one of them. The numerical number set of infinite infinities of cardinals is contained within the Overvoid Field and birthed as a concept by the field. Cardinals exist, because the Absolute deemed it so in the religious viewpoint. Here, Maharishi explains that math itself is meaningless and another byproduct of the field.

This tier has no endpoint, and can be extended to any higher level just like the ones above.

The comic said it is eternal and infinite without end.

Also cited as nothing exists past a certain point except the void, which is not a thing. Even the concept of nothing isn't the Overvoid. All transnondual concepts are within the Flaw. All. And not what you say and what you are cherry picking. All means all. Everything not the Overvoid is the Flaw. Every concept, every energy, every math formula, every cardinal value, everything. And we also had a guidebook map reference this too, the only anything that exist past a certain point is the unknowable that cannot be actually defined. IE: The Overvoid.

Being "omnipotent" or any similar reasoning is not nearly enough to reach this tier on its own; however, such statements can be used as supporting evidence in conjunction with more substantial information.

Omnipotence is a concept. Concepts of Omnipotence CEASE at the barrier of the Flaw and convert to nondual meaninglessness. You cannot say that this doesn't occur without evidence. You have no scans that show Omnipotence being able to exist in the Overvoid's nondual nonexistence and when the mind of monitor is essential on the off switch mode. Yet, your ranks and scales for the Overvoid are based on that without any evidence.

Recall, the Source is the ain soph aurr, and even this older DC Comic says this that Void predates manwu which merely floats in the void along with everything else.

.

The comics support this. This is further enhanced with the meta aspects that the authors detail in arguments. My question to you, is why the meta doesn't have value in scaling and why it is stripped out entirely. The point of the Overvoid in FC is to contain all the fictional spaces and nothing within the fictional space can hold a candle to it. It is fictionless, the Overvoid is a reference to something exterior the real world interacting with it.

The same way Narnia's Aslan is Jesus Christ from nonfiction playing inside of a book series and the same way Iru Illuvitar is biblical Yahweh's first creation before us here on this planet. Lord of the Rings takes place on our earth, before we existed.

So too, the Overvoid is a reference to the religious aspects of Voidist and Kabbalistic belief in the Void of the Absolute interacting with stories we write on Earth.

You've stripped this context right off and redined it subjectively without any actual evidence to support it. This is rhetoric, and not evidence based on your part.

You rate Azathoth a Tier 0 and its clear as a bell you've never read or studied Lovecraft at all.

Exploration of the Lovecraftian Universe with the Use of Modern Physics: Mi-Go!

This article is a brief examination of some of the unique concepts and ideas founds in Lovecraft’s stories and how they relate to modern physics.

lovecraftzine.com

Dude was friends with Einstein and helped develop the Unified Field theory, so even he knows Azathoth is floating in the Void. I don't even want to hear otherwise and some subjective denial of this. Nobody here but me investigated Lovecraft. Simple as that. Just me and me alone.

You consider The Writer Tier 0, but the CAS poked the entire realm of the writers and also contained our world in context. Not IRL, its all in context. And you've made sure to strip that context away to descale the thing that is the visual for all Existence, both fictional and nonfictional.

You rank WoD Jevoha as Tier 0, which is laughable...this is all about scaling, right Tarang and co.? So...basic logic here.

In Christianity, Yahweh is prime and always existed as a personality. But in Voidism and the Kabbalah, the Void transcends Yahweh. So you've forgotten to scale WoD Jehova to the Void aspect that scales higher than it. Where is the scaling here? Its like its absent...

001 likely tier 0, another author avatar in the real world where fictional things can go and interact with, which didn't happen in the story and was only speculated but this point was absent in the scaling. Yet, in Grant's talks, he explicitely states that Earth 33 is a place no fictional thing can travel to otherwise it would not be the real world and the context for the higher dimension of Hypertime for Grants version was to include all the deities we pray to IRL, and the Void is containing all of that. So again, scaled incorrect and without evidence, but stripped the context out of Grants version entirely and unfairly.

SCP 2747 likely tier 0 based on this statement?

SCP-2747 is an anti-narrative, a cluster of narrative elements that when included in a given story, will eventually lead to mutual destruction.

lol what. CAS IS ALL STORY and 2747 is an element of a pack of narratives and not the full concept of Story even in SCP's narrative, but the CAS is all narrative nonfictional and fictional wtf even.

Be fair. Revise the scaling. Ty for your time.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Ya, the moment I see reasonings enter the realm of Twitter dms, religious videos, and Wiki pages, I just say nope.

Fear of evidence and appeal to self are not valid arguments. Your denial of evidence from authors and content creators just means you don't want to be fair at all. But that doesn't matter, I can still show the content for CAS, Mandrakk and the Overvoid of FC exceed the values of curret tier 0's in the post above.

When I see users and "Debaters" stop debating the evidence and fully cross their arms over content creator interviews, that means you've stopped being and just invoke the Nuh Uh argument. And I am cool with that. The more you do that, the more I win. The more anyone who investigates any of this wins, the more anyone who cares about the evidence wins, the more anyone who cares about the lore itself...wins.

Fairness. Balanced debating. Unbiased scaling. > Nuh uh argument

 

[Robo432343]

Fear of evidence and appeal to self are not valid arguments. Your denial of evidence from authors and content creators just means you don't want to be fair at all. But that doesn't matter, I can still show the content for CAS, Mandrakk and the Overvoid of FC exceed the values of curret tier 0's in the post above.

When I see users and "Debaters" stop debating the evidence and fully cross their arms over content creator interviews, that means you've stopped being and just invoke the Nuh Uh argument. And I am cool with that. The more you do that, the more I win. The more anyone who investigates any of this wins, the more anyone who cares about the evidence wins, the more anyone who cares about the lore itself...wins.

Fairness. Balanced debating. Unbiased scaling. > Nuh uh argument

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Your denial of evidence from authors and content creators just means you don't want to be fair at all.

No... I have no issues with interviews, I have issues with random religious videos, wiki pages, and scientific theories, that aren't specifically mentioned in the verse based purely on similarities, guesses, and assumptions.

It's not a matter of if you can, it's a matter of should you. No other verse needed to use that kind of evidence to get Tier 0, all they needed was statements from within their verse and nothing else. With that in mind, you gotta wonder if maybe, just maybe you're reaching for a tier that you just shouldn't have.

 

[Deagonx]

No... I have no issues with interviews, I have issues with random religious videos, wiki pages, and scientific theories, that aren't specifically mentioned in the verse based purely on similarities, guesses, and assumptions.

Notably, Grant has never referenced Maharishi or any of his teachings

 

[MichaelJZero]

Notably, Grant has never referenced Maharishi or any of his teachings

I cannot facepalm myself harder, I've achieved infinite Deagon physical palm strike on self levels now.

Maharishi is just another popular religious person of the Voidist religion, no different than a very prominent priest is to Christianity. Its absurd and ridiculous you are saying Grant didn't base this on Maharishi when Grant explained many times its based on this buddhist and kabbalistic religion structure. Its further weird as hell, considering he is the worlds foremost expert on Transcedental Meditation. Remember years ago you said Grant never said it was based on that at all or had anything to do with it, then I posted the scans of Grant saying it was not just from SuperGods, but also in other interviews, you went silent, and now you are back to ignoring Grant saying it? Yea...

Imagine for a second we are discussing Christianity doctrine and a content creator says its based on the Christian viewpoint. Deagon links a really famous Bishop who is credited as a high tier source of information of the facts of how the faith operates, and I swoop in and say that that Bishop isn't what the writer based the Chrisitan hierarchy on in his comic.

Go ahead, Deagon, Google Grant and The Beatles and see what comes up...lol

Its like...huh? You've sunk so low that you need to tell others that Maharishi is the guy who made Voidism from like 10,000 years ago in Ancient India? lol ok. There are lots of other Voidists I can talk about that say the same thing about their religion that 500 million or so people believe in on this planet, but Maharishi is one of the most popular ones because The Beatles hung around with him and the developted a lot of their albums with him in the around and helping them understand it.

But anyway, I recall years ago I said I'd never speak to you again after what you pulled on Quora with me. So please don't ever address me again.


Some of you purposely reject that because you don't want to see the FC Overvoid ranked T0 and Mandrakk high 1A based on the actual evidence and the meta. You strip that away entirely and then replace it with whatever you prefer. You'd rather blur them all together and tell others something like the Dial H for Hero Overvoid is the same as the Final Crisis Overvoid, or the Williamson Yuga Khan floating in the Overvoid with Merlin is the same as the nondual nothing can even get there Overvoid of FC.



That's not scaling. Thats shilling. Yo' scaling busted. Please fix it. There is no reason you cannot inject multiple tiers rankings for the Overvoid based on the canon, but instead you are bluring them all together and purposely picking the weakest written version of the Overvoid. You dont do that with variants of Superman, or characters that show up as variants like Strange Visitor superman who scales massively above the Lois and Clark Superman. You know there is a difference yet both are superman. Do the same for Overvoid and other characters based on the series. Its not hard. Just be fair about it, that's all I'm asking.

 

[Deagonx]

Maharishi is just another popular religious person of the Voidist religion, no different than a very prominent priest is to Christianity. Its absurd and ridiculous you are saying Grant didn't base this on Maharishi when Grant explained many times its based on this buddhist and kabbalistic religion structure.

I fail to see how that's weird given that Maharishi was neither Buddhist nor Jewish?

Its further weird as hell, considering he is the worlds foremost expert on Transcedental Meditation. Remember years ago you said Grant never said it was based on that at all or had anything to do with it, then I posted the scans of Grant saying it was not just from SuperGods, but also in other interviews, you went silent, and now you are back to ignoring Grant saying it? Yea...

You posted a quote from SuperGods referring to Tibetan Meditation, which isn't Transcendental Meditation. Maharishi isn't Tibetan, and the only thing those two have in common is that they are forms of meditation, and the first word starts with "T."

I recall when this was pointed out, you did not respond to it. I suspect you will avoid responding to it now. Further, you never posted any interviews of him referring to Transcendental Meditation or Maharishi, rather, you posted a link to a comment made not by Grant claiming that Grant was into Transcendental Meditation, with no sources or verification of whether or not that was true.

That, to me, is weird. Refusing to watch hours of an Indian Guru who has no connection to DC is not weird.

But anyway, I recall years ago I said I'd never speak to you again after what you pulled on Quora with me. So please don't ever address me again.

You're free to not respond to what I say, but you do not become immune to having your misinformation corrected on this public forum.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

If my thoughts weren't clear enough before, the relationship between the Overvoid and the Flaw is not described as an actual duality. While one could metaphorically interpret it as such, the essence of the Flaw encompasses all duality and concepts, rendering the argument pretty weak.

Additionally, labeling the Overvoid as now within a duality eitherway is a pretty one dimensional look at this situation, as both the author and the comics themselves contradict such a view, as well as it not being necessary to assume the Overvoid is now a dual entity after the Flaws appearance. I disagree with the removal

DC is becoming an actual headache to deal with on this site

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

If my thoughts weren't clear enough before, the relationship between the Overvoid and the Flaw is not described as an actual duality. While one could metaphorically interpret it as such, the essence of the Flaw encompasses all duality and concepts, rendering the argument pretty weak.

The Flaw is the Multiverse and there still are parts of the duality that does not exist during the time of the Multiverse.

Light and Darkness are dualities yet they predate the Flaw. The Flaw isn't “all dualities.” Nothing and Everything is a duality.

Additionally, labeling the Overvoid as now within a duality eitherway is a pretty one dimensional look at this situation, as both the author and the comics themselves contradict such a view, as well as it not being necessary to assume the Overvoid is now a dual entity after the Flaws appearance. I disagree with the removal

Feel free but you must convince the majority.

DC is becoming an actual headache to deal with on this site

So is Marvel but it's not being focused on. Just because you disagree, does not mean these stuff are just moot.

 

[Deagonx]

the relationship between the Overvoid and the Flaw is not described as an actual duality

I completely disagree with this, and this approach seems to contradict the Transduality page:

That is to say, that the duality in question can be decribed as "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. So, for example, fire and water are not a duality. The duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, which could equivalently be formulated as existence and nonexistence or existence and void.

A flaw that is everything perfection is not. "A" and "Not A"

as both the author and the comics themselves contradict such a view

This is not problematic. Comics and authors very routinely use words in a way that is not accurate. The practical truth of the matter is more important than which labels have been applied to something, which is why Darkseid isn't omnipotent and the Sphere isn't platonic.

 

[MichaelJZero]

I don’t understand your reasoning here. How does Monitor-Mind being shocked by the existence of the flaw prove it’s not qualitatively superior to it? In the same stories the flaw was regarded as some infinitesimal thing within its infinite consciousness.

This user stated the inverse because he knows it is the inverse. And the inverse data is more beneficial to his favoritism and preferences that are forged by the group consensus having no respect for content creators they dislike.

 

[Deagonx]

This user stated the inverse because he knows it is the inverse. And the inverse data is more beneficial to his favoritism and preferences that are forged by the group consensus having no respect for content creators they dislike.

Do not poison the well here by accusing Elizio of some sort of bias. His reasoning is valid, and if you seek to oppose it, you should do so on a sound logical basis rather than throwing out accusations.

As others in this thread have noted, the description given when the Overvoid discovers the flaw casts doubt on the notion of superiority. A being with true superiority should not fear an infinitesimal object, the phrase "no awareness of what damage story could do to an immense awareness without limits or definition" also casts doubt. If it were truly superior, then it wouldn't be able to cause damage.

Even the act of containing the flaw (which you called 'immediate' although that isn't the truth of the matter) to prevent the spread is suspect here. If the Overvoid were truly infinitely greater, no amount of spread would ever amount to anything.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Spoiler: Matt

The Flaw is the Multiverse and there still are parts of the duality that does not exist during the time of the Multiverse.

Light and Darkness are dualities yet they predate the Flaw. The Flaw isn't “all dualities.” Nothing and Everything is a duality.

Again, you're argument could be one of the many subjective interpretations of the Overvoid. IF we have not gotten direct confirmation that the Overvoid is still non-dual

Im not sure if you are familiar with Chinese or Buddhist philosophy, which Grant uses numerous times, the whole idea that the Void is the underlying nonexistence and that all of existence/duality was manifested from it is a pretty popular thing in these philosophies. One could make the argument that the Overvoid and the Flaw exist in a metaphorical duality, however we know we cant particularly put that on the Overvoid.

Feel free but you must convince the majority.

The majority have long ago made up their minds, this is the age where we meme DC into Tier 10 (wank, actually)

So is Marvel but it's not being focused on.

Marvel is fun, man. Marvel is just really fun to scale.

Spoiler: Deegon

That is to say, that the duality in question can be decribed as "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. So, for example, fire and water are not a duality. The duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, which could equivalently be formulated as existence and nonexistence or existence and void.

By literal definition, we should now remove all TD on this entire site. Because the existence of a structure that represents duality would immediately supposedly contradict the existence of TD entities.

The existence of a TD entity should now imply that all of existence does not actually exist because if it did it would define itself as an opposite to a non-dual entity, and supposedly now, that cant happen because it would put the non-dual thing in a metaphorical duality? See the problem here?

which is why Darkseid isn't omnipotent

Common hyperbole. The Overvoid is the literal god tier of DC Comics. Its entire character is its relationship with existence, the flaw, which is all duality. Its completely and utterly dumb (as well as borderline intentionally, maliciously downplaying for the sake of downplaying).

 

[Deagonx]

By literal definition, we should now remove all TD on this entire site. Because the existence of a structure that represents duality would immediately supposedly contradict the existence of TD entities.

Not all of them are in a concretely defined duality.

Common hyperbole

That's not the point, I'm just establishing that a given label is not absolute if practical information contradicts it.

Its entire character is its relationship with existence, the flaw, which is all duality.

It wasn't even called Non-Dual in the comics until years after its introduction.

Its completely and utterly dumb (as well as borderline intentionally, maliciously downplaying for the sake of downplaying).

People disagree with you, therefore they are maliciously and intentionally downplaying? Look, consider this a warning, do not inject this kind of toxicity into threads. It's not helpful and just serves to inflame what should be a peaceful discussion. Calling people dumb or questioning their character doesn't help your argument.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Again, you're argument could be one of the many subjective interpretations of the Overvoid. IF we have not gotten direct confirmation that the Overvoid is still non-dual

This isn't a subjective interpretation it's what the comics are directly stating. The only subjective part is whether the Overvoid would still be QS to the Flaw because of this gander.

If the Overvoid has not been confirmed as non-dual within the actual story then it fits the idea it was in a duality.

Im not sure if you are familiar with Chinese or Buddhist philosophy, which Grant uses numerous times, the whole idea that the Void is the underlying nonexistence and that all of existence/duality was manifested from it is a pretty popular thing in these philosophies. One could make the argument that the Overvoid and the Flaw exist in a metaphorical duality, however we know we cant particularly put that on the Overvoid.

Taking parts of philosophy does not mean it is 100% based on the source material. It is just ideas being inspired that are subtly put into the stories and its direct link could be varied sources.

A metaphorical duality? What seems metaphorical about it? It's literally telling us everything that perfection is not is the Flaw.

The majority have long ago made up their minds, this is the age where we meme DC into Tier 10 (wank, actually)

I suppose you find this to be assuming since the others agree with the OP. Please I don't need to see this banter, just stay on topic.

Marvel is fun, man. Marvel is just really fun to scale.

Nothing to due with what I said nor is it relevant.

 

[MichaelJZero]

I fail to see how that's weird given that Maharishi was neither Buddhist nor Jewish?

Voidism and the Kabbalah share the exact same structure. You can find this data in 5 seconds of a Google search. Both religions focus on the Void aspect as the True God of all things at the top, one without a personality that is not called the Creator God by those who practice the faith. You clearly haven't watched any of the videos I posted. This is also mirrored in M-Theory with the Unified Field being the same thing and same general concept of Void contains all. Its even considered once to be sentient according to some foremost experts with the sentient universe theory. All three of these things are what the DC structure is based on that we are discussing.

You posted a quote from SuperGods referring to Tibetan Meditation, which isn't Transcendental Meditation. Maharishi isn't Tibetan, and the only thing those two have in common is that they are forms of meditation, and the first word starts with "T."

Yea no. I shoved Grant's Supergods book and other interviews of Grant citing Transcedental Mediation as one of the defining features. It doesn't matter if I repost them, you'll deny them and not at all acknowledge you were wrong. I fully expect you to dodge this entirely and not address it.

I recall when this was pointed out, you did not respond to it. I suspect you will avoid responding to it now. Further, you never posted any interviews of him referring to Transcendental Meditation or Maharishi, rather, you posted a link to a comment made not by Grant claiming that Grant was into Transcendental Meditation, with no sources or verification of whether or not that was true.

I responded to everything you asked for. And you are talking about this one, right?

Tibetian Meditation has the same general purpose as Transcedental Meditation, all you do is try to redine ancient things to try to win arguments >.>

The aim is to reach nirvana and enlightenment. Thats the goal.

Maharishi's version is not at all different in how to do it, its the same practices, but with a different goal. Their goal is to empty the soul and mind of all and return to void. To them, thats the nirvana.

In TM, its empty yourself of all ego and thoughts and consciousnes and let the Void nothing aspect reset you.

In Tibetian verison, typical Buddhism, its to achieve oneness with the universe and allow knowledge to flow through you, while you let go of human stresses.

Davis Lynch was a big inspiration of Grants, and he is one of the foremost faces of Transcedental Meditation.

Dude's entire institute is titled the school of Transcedental Meditation and so is his documentary lol and you said for YEARS they weren't linked.

That, to me, is weird. Refusing to watch hours of an Indian Guru who has no connection to DC is not weird.

huh? So you are saying when the bible hierarchy is shown in DC and someone links a priest or a pope or a bishop explaining what that angel's origin was, that's confusing to you? lol ok..

You're free to not respond to what I say, but you do not become immune to having your misinformation corrected on this public forum.

Its your side that thrives in misinformation. All I do is post scans and author interviews, and I get nothing but denial and that I am the one posting misinformation. Same nonsense argument counter, nothing changes.

The Flaw is the Multiverse and there still are parts of the duality that does not exist during the time of the Multiverse.

Duality is a concept that exists within the Flaw. Duality is not the Overvoid. Everything not the Overvoid is in the Flaw.

Light and Darkness are dualities yet they predate the Flaw. The Flaw isn't “all dualities.” Nothing and Everything is a duality.

Light and Darkness were described in the Swamp Thing saga as the concept of Good vs Evil, not what you say. They are not predating the Flaw. In fact, we see the dial node of the Kabbalah in the larger scan on this same page complete with Dark and Light, the aspects of Existence and the duality of heroes and villains, of good and evil. And according to Geoff Thorne, who I interviewed as well, he said in his series, the Great Darkness isn't above the Source, it's below the Source.

And he also said the Overvoid > the Source. So maybe this is how it is in the Williamson run, but not all of DC.

The Light and The Dark are DC Concepts. They do not predate Marvel Earth 8, nor Image Comics Earth 41 in Final Crisis or the Multiversity canon.

Not a copy, not a parallel universe, the entire Marvel Franchise, the legit one. Not intended to be an analogue or a fake parallel universe that is similar.

Not a copy, not a fake one, Limbo is a relam that is shared between all fictive properties.

The Fictive Membrane, a thing that no fictional thing can bypass and Monitor Space, Nil, and the Overvoid are all beyond that place no fictional thing can go. You have nothing to say about this though.

Its live on video too.

This is not problematic. Comics and authors very routinely use words in a way that is not accurate. The practical truth of the matter is more important than which labels have been applied to something, which is why Darkseid isn't omnipotent and the Sphere isn't platonic.

You are the guy, Deagon, who said the Orrery of Worlds is the barrier that left and wasn't there because Grant flubbed a term in an interview.

And you claimed for years without one person outside of Xearsay combating you on how ill advised and fraudulent that claim was. The Orrery didn't leave after Final Crisis. The barrier left. The Barrier was the CAS.

You claim and still claim the Orrery of Worlds is the cage and its gone now. It isn't. The Orrery never left or went away, that would empty the entire Multiverse of everything. The only thing that stopped being a cage was the cosmic armor, the thing the Overvoid used as a literal wrapped barrier to seal the Flaw and protect it.

When someone is talking about Buddist viewpoints, you got confused why anyone would post a famous buddhist yogi instructing everyone on Buddhism. Doesn't that show you that you are way out of your league here?

You claimed Grant's work isn't based on Maharishi's work despite the entire cosmology map being a mirror of the Kabbalah and voidism map of the cosmos. A five second google image search yields this.

This is page one of the Book of Creation, the Jewish Mystic Kabbalah guide

Go ahead and deny this doens't look familiar.

This is not problematic. Comics and authors very routinely use words in a way that is not accurate. The practical truth of the matter is more important than which labels have been applied to something, which is why Darkseid isn't omnipotent and the Sphere isn't platonic.

Its a massive problem when you disregard 7 authors and a few guidebooks all confirming the same thing and then scale a wiki in the opposite manner of what the religious notions are based on entirely for the same structure you are scaling. You claim to be a great scaler but you can't even retain the context of what the Final Crisis version of characters and locations are. You strip it away and then brush your shoulder off and say you won the scaling debate and debunked me...you debunked me and my side by just redefining what you want an essentially turning into the Alternative Facts King? Yea no.

Your group insisted for years the Presence > the Overvoid

When the Overvoid is the Absolute. And the Ain Soph Aurr is the Source from Kirby.


This is what the spiritual map of the Absolute looks like

Who is the ain soph aurr?

Not even the first time Grant said the Source is the Ain Soph Aurr

So grant doing detailed interviews saying this is the case, that the Absolute is the Overvoid and the Ain Soph Aurr is the Source, and the Presence isn't even considered important and the Creator God is not even listed on the big three of the Absolute Field Void cosmos maps.

Absolute > Infinite Gap > Ain emanations x3 > Creator God, which is a near perfect replication of what Maharishi preaches in Voidism.

Unmanifest Field > Existence (The House) > Emanations of God the Creator and this is in the linked videos above that I already posted.

At no point were you correct, at no point did you debunk me. More than happy to explain any and all of this to anyone who wants to DM me to talk about it.

 

[Deagonx]

Voidism and the Kabbalah share the exact same structure. You can find this data in 5 seconds of a Google search.

A five second google search that the very term "voidism" is not recognized by any significant bodies. There doesn't appear to be a coherent and unified doctrine of belief or even official literature about this supposed religion. The term "Voidism" on wikipedia redirects to a page titled Śūnyatā which itself is very diverse in application, none of which seem to have immediate relevance to this discussion.

Regardless, without very concrete evidence of a reference to "Voidist" beliefs in DC, there is almost no point to this discussion. Given how esoteric this phrase appears to be, I am left with the impression that your basis for asserting "voidism" as relevant to DC is probably fairly specious.

I shoved Grant's Supergods book and other interviews of Grant citing Transcedental Mediation as one of the defining features. It doesn't matter if I repost them, you'll deny them and not at all acknowledge you were wrong. I fully expect you to dodge this entirely and not address it.

I've already addressed this, I have no problem doing so again.

I responded to everything you asked for. And you are talking about this one, right?

Tibetian Meditation has the same general purpose as Transcedental Meditation, all you do is try to redine ancient things to try to win arguments >.>

Indeed, as you can see, there is no reference to "Transcendental Meditation" it merely says "Tibetan Meditation." Notably, Maharishi was not a Buddhist, his teacher was Hindu and he has largely been analyzed as a neo-Hindu teacher. Reference to Buddhist meditations do not justify this supposed connection to Maharishi.

The phrase "same general purpose" is a weasel word here. You're retreating to something vague and generic because the specifics have been rebutted. It seems clear that you admit, at the very least, that the phrase "Transcendental Meditation" is absent in Supergods. There's a single line about him doing a Tibetan Meditation for his deceased father, and it is not given in relation to DC at all.

You claim to have "other interviews" of Grant referencing TM, but they are conspicuously absent. The level of fixation you place on this non-TM reference to Meditation suggests that no such evidence actually exists. The only other piece of information provided is a statement about Grant from someone else claiming he was into TM, but there's no evidence to support it.

Davis Lynch was a big inspiration of Grants, and he is one of the foremost faces of Transcedental Meditation.

Dude's entire institute is titled the school of Transcedental Meditation and so is his documentary lol and you said for YEARS they weren't linked.

That's fine, but this isn't a conversation about David Lynch, it's about Grant Morrison. The fact that David Lynch practices TM, and that Grant referred to him as an inspiration for Batman & Robin, does not justify this claim that Grant based anything about DC's cosmology on the teachings of Maharishi. David Lynch is also a very famous filmmaker. Without evidence that this "inspiration" was pertaining to his TM advocacy rather than his filmmaking (which he is much better known for), this is basically nothing at all.

You have completely failed to justify caring about Maharishi in relation to DC. No references to him in anything Grant ever wrote, no references to TM.

So you are saying when the bible hierarchy is shown in DC and someone links a priest or a pope or a bishop explaining what that angel's origin was, that's confusing to you? lol ok..

Yes, citing a real-world Christian figure on the basis of an angel being in DC would be extremely weird, given how routinely DC deviates from biblical canon in it's presentations of things. Lucifer Morningstar is obviously based on the Christian devil, but information given by a Catholic Bishop about the devil would not be relevant in any way shape or form to DC scaling.

Not a copy, not a parallel universe, the entire Marvel Franchise, the legit one. Not intended to be an analogue or a fake parallel universe that is similar.

Not a copy, not a fake one, Limbo is a relam that is shared between all fictive properties.

We do not scale statements of fictions containing other fictions in this manner on the site.

You are the guy, Deagon, who said the Orrery of Worlds is the barrier that left and wasn't there because Grant flubbed a term on his interview.

No, more accurately, I pointed out that Grant said this concretely multiple times and your basis for objection was an unfounded claim that Grant made a mistake in his interview, because you could not accept that Grant directly contradicted your theory.

When someone is talking about Buddist viewpoints, you got confused why anyone would post a famous buddhist yogi instructing everyone on Buddhism. Doesn't that show you that you are way out of your league here?

No, because Maharishi wasn't Buddhist. He wasn't officially affiliated with any religion, but his teachings were Hindu in nature and his own teacher was Hindu.

Who is the ain soph aurr?

Not even the first time Grant said the Source is the Ain Soph Aurr

Grant also said the Source was the Overvoid. So your claim that the Overvoid is above the Source directly contradicts Grant in multiple respects, including the recent "Absolute Edition" of Multiversity.

At no point were you correct, at no point did you debunk me.

You just claimed Maharishi was Buddhist.

 

[Deagonx]

Moreover, it is crucial to pay respect to the fact that Grant drew inspiration from a wide variety of sources, including religious, spiritual, and theoretical ideologies.

But with that said, MJ, you can't even seem to make up your mind about which religion you want to attempt to scale DC to. You cite Buddhism and Jewish Kabbalah, despite the fact that there is a world of difference between those two things, and most practitioners of either would agree that they have very little in common. Your attempt to include a neo-Hindu Guru into the mix makes things even more complicated. That's not even including the various theories like Bohm, Platonism, and M-Theory that have also been cited.

We can't just cherry-pick the most wankable religion or theory that Grant ever name-dropped in an interview and treat DC characters as far more powerful than they actually are by superimposing that religion on the cosmology. That'll never happen here. I doubt you will ever be convinced of that, but your personal convincing is sort of a moot point. That will just never get accepted here, it's a fairly ridiculous premise for a character's profile.

Using something as an inspiration does not mean you copy and pasted every aspect of it into the verse. Numerous details about DC contradict every single one of the religions referenced above, which means they are nothing more than an influence. Using Kabbalah as an influence doesn't mean the Overvoid would be scaled as though it were literally the Kabbalah Ein, or the Buddhist Sunyata, or the Maharishi's Unmanifest Field, et cetera.

It just means that various elements of those things were used as a general template for a character (the Overvoid) which isn't any of those things specifically.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Since Deagonx stole the words right out of my mouth. What's the consensus here so far?

 

[MichaelJZero]

Yea see, like I said. Its quite amazing how poor the debating skill is when it comes to anyone who challenges me.

This is literally shown on the cosmic map as the source wall that is the red to violet.

So how is this relevant, Deagon? How is this your trump card when the map relates this zone as the Source Wall and the Overvoid is right past it. Wana know whats funny though? The 2014 map doesn't reflect the visual of the Flaw in 2008.

The map is a snapshot as it was in 2014.

In 2008, the Void is all that is after that. Remember?

Grant also said the Source was the Overvoid. So your claim that the Overvoid is above the Source directly contradicts Grant in multiple respects, including the recent "Absolute Edition" of Multiversity.

Yea no. This is the same talk as Snyder, they are all emanations of God. The top form of it is the Overvoid Absolute. And everything not the Absolute is an infinitely small flaw to it. Including the Kirby Source that is the Ain Soph Aurr, you are trying to spin things into your favor in the opposite way the content creators said it.

A five second google search that the very term "voidism" is not recognized by any significant bodies. There doesn't appear to be a coherent and unified doctrine of belief or even official literature about this supposed religion. The term "Voidism" on wikipedia redirects to a page titled Śūnyatā which itself is very diverse in application, none of which seem to have immediate relevance to this discussion.

This is incoherant nonsense, Voidism is the Maharishi's tangent of Buddism that he follows, and its ancient as hell. Your insisting that Voidist belief isn't the core of his preaching and the Kabbalah is a bold face fraudulent statement. Do better.

I've already addressed this, I have no problem doing so again.

Nuh uh argument isn't you addressing it, its you dodging that it was directly said.

The phrase "same general purpose" is a weasel word here. You're retreating to something vague and generic because the specifics have been rebutted. It seems clear that you admit, at the very least, that the phrase "Transcendental Meditation" is absent in Supergods. There's a single line about him doing a Tibetan Meditation for his deceased father, and it is not given in relation to DC at all.

The only weaseling here is you trying to spin that Tebetan people don't meditate the same way as Transcedental Meditation practicioner do despite the scan I posted saying they do the same thing with a different goal at the end. Weasel, indeed.

You claim to have "other interviews" of Grant referencing TM, but they are conspicuously absent. The level of fixation you place on this non-TM reference to Meditation suggests that no such evidence actually exists. The only other piece of information provided is a statement about Grant from someone else claiming he was into TM, but there's no evidence to support it.

Only need one to debunk your claims that none exist. I gave you three and never claimed to have more than three. You made that up. Another fraudulent statement with no evidence.

That's fine, but this isn't a conversation about David Lynch, it's about Grant Morrison.

You said there is no correlation between Grant and Transcedental Meditation except for that Grant is a big fan of the biggest and most famous practicioner of Transcedental Meditation, rofl.

The fact that David Lynch practices TM, and that Grant referred to him as an inspiration for Batman & Robin, does not justify this claim that Grant based anything about DC's cosmology on the teachings of Maharishi.

Yes it does. Here is David talking about how his inspiration on his school and teachings are entirely based on Maharishi's teachings.

David Lynch is also a very famous filmmaker. Without evidence that this "inspiration" was pertaining to his TM advocacy rather than his filmmaking (which he is much better known for), this is basically nothing at all.

His documentary is literally titled the same thing Maharishi coined, and he is referenced in the documentary multiple times.

You have completely failed to justify caring about Maharishi in relation to DC. No references to him in anything Grant ever wrote, no references to TM.

Right it totally doesn't relate apparently except Grant saying a big focus was on the Buddist cosmic map, which is only found in Transcendental Meditation practice of the Buddist religion (its called Voidism) , except that Grant said its inspired by the Kabbalaist viewpoint structure, which is nearly identical to Voidism, and that his inspiration for a lot of things is David Lynch who in turn is the worlds proponent of Transcendental Meditation and also Grant loving the Beatles a ton means he surely didn't notice the Maharishi walking around them for decades and helping them on their music. Surely...lol

Yes, citing a real-world Christian figure on the basis of an angel being in DC would be extremely weird, given how routinely DC deviates from biblical canon in it's presentations of things. Lucifer Morningstar is obviously based on the Christian devil, but information given by a Catholic Bishop about the devil would not be relevant in any way shape or form to DC

Lucifer Morningstar isn't a refernce to nonfictional deities in the real world and beyond interacting with fictional stories in comics we wright on Earth, but the Overvoid and Monitors are. So your logic attempt is a poor one here. Aslan from Narnia in context is Jesus Christ from nonfictional space playing in a fictional story. This is not the same context as the Jesus Christ figure in DC, or Lucifer in DC Comics or vertigo, they are originated in the narrative of DC and are not being cast down from outside of the narrative. You are mistaken, another fraudulent statement by you.

No, more accurately, I pointed out that Grant said this concretely multiple times and your basis for objection was an unfounded claim that Grant made a mistake in his interview, because you could not accept that Grant directly contradicted your theory.

Grant doesn't contradict anything when I play live videos of him saying things, and the interviews text. You claiming this is just my opinion shows how weak you are on evidence based discussion and objective data debates. You simply cannot stand against me and can only say that any data you dislike is invalid and the author doesn't agree with me. Your nonsense claims that the entire Orrery of Worlds is gone after Final Crisis is laughable, as the only thing referenced as a Barrier was the Cosmic Armor and that was the only thing to have left and vanished.

No, because Maharishi wasn't Buddhist. He wasn't officially affiliated with any religion, but his teachings were Hindu in nature and his own teacher was Hindu.

A bold face lie from you. He was a Buddist, stop your nonsense.

Grant also said the Source was the Overvoid. So your claim that the Overvoid is above the Source directly contradicts Grant in multiple respects, including the recent "Absolute Edition" of Multiversity.

I own the Absolute Edition, and there is no reference to anything you just said about that in it that wasn't in the Prior. Another lie. Lets see what it actually says. It says out past Monitor space is the Overvoid / The Source and not that the Overvoid is the Ain Sophh Aurr Source that Grant said it was twice...twice dude...

You claimed that Grant never said its based on the Kabbalah, yet the very Absolute Edition here says it is heavily inspired by it.

You claimed that fictional things can go past Earth 33, yet the guide Absolute Edition says NOPE they cannot. And the Monitor space and Overvoid are above Earth 33 because they are not supposed to be from any fictional place.

Deagon, I will thrash you without mercy on all of this no matter how many times you reply.

You claimed Maharishi wasn't a Buddist? What the hell...
You claimed Grant never said this is based on the Kabbalah or the Buddist maps?

The map of the multiverse is almost like a Buddhist map of the cosmos.

Remember for years when you said Grant didn't draw inspiration from this? Tell us again how its not based on this...each time you deny the scans I provide you, every time you make up your own variation of the truth, I win. Each time you try to make up nonsense like Maharishi wasn't Buddhist, I win. Each time you insist something that isn't true and call me the cherry picker, when I am the only one here saying be fair and give different ranks for each version of the continuity that showcases the Overvoid prominently, but you are the side that says shh dont do that...I win. Each time you shout the opposite of what the interviews say, I win. Each time you move to other topic forums and use author statements to confirm yourself but then deny all mine, I win.

And it doesn't matter how many others here validate you. You are being validated by favoritism, not because you actually won or got anything right.

Moreover, it is crucial to pay respect to the fact that Grant drew inspiration from a wide variety of sources, including religious, spiritual, and theoretical ideologies.

Correct, all three share the same structure, Voidism off shoot of normal Buddist viewpoint, which is explained right in the Mediatation guide that explains they are slightly different in what they are trying to achieve but both are still under Buddist belief. The Kabbalah, and the M-theory setup. Funny how you glossed over that hoping nobody would read it. But w/e at this point, you've gone off the rails long ago.

Here is grant repeatedly talking about Mtheory as the foundation.

And here

SDCC '15: Grant Morrison - Multiversity and Beyond!

By Joe Glass The hall is filling up for Grant Morrison to unspool his mind and blow all of ours, and whilst we waited for the panel to begin, it was easy

bleedingcool.com

And here

Read an Exclusive, Unpublished Excerpt of Grant Morrison's SUPERGODS

Nerdist chats with iconic comic creator Grant Morrison about their new online archive, and they shared an unpublished Supergods excerpt.

nerdist.com

We can't just cherry-pick the most wankable religion or theory that Grant ever name-dropped in an interview and treat DC characters as far more powerful than they actually are by superimposing that religion on the cosmology. That'll never happen here. I doubt you will ever be convinced of that, but your personal convincing is sort of a moot point. That will just never get accepted here, it's a fairly ridiculous premise for a character's profile.

So far mate you have been debunked on every single point possible and its only me here saying revise the scaling based on each canon. You were active here for years telling everyone blur them all and ignore all the older ones and go for only the new one. Well you aren't even doing that lol. How the hell you call me the one cherry picking when I am the one telling you to give a fair rank for all the canons versions of the Overvoid and you are the one saying nah, cherry pick just the one you prefer...lol x infinity.

I am well aware it won't get fixed here, do you really think I am under the impression that I can alter biased bribers and 19x alias forgers like yourself? I don't stand a chance against that because I have a shame center in my brain and you don't.

Using something as an inspiration does not mean you copy and pasted every aspect of it into the verse. Numerous details about DC contradict every single one of the religions referenced above, which means they are nothing more than an influence. Using Kabbalah as an influence doesn't mean the Overvoid would be scaled as though it were literally the Kabbalah Ein, or the Buddhist Sunyata, or the Maharishi's Unmanifest Field, et cetera.

This is denial, and your revision of factual data to try to win arguments and you know others wont read anything I post, so you feel confident making up nonsense like he wasn't Buddhist and Grant didn't say any of that. You know you can say anything you want and you will still get support. That to me tells me you know you do not have what it takes to stand up to be on a real objective discussion because you've brought exactly ZERO objective arguments here in this entire topic. Not a single one.

It just means that various elements of those things were used as a general template for a character (the Overvoid) which isn't any of those things specifically.

Its funny that you explain your own comments and ideas on this, but you deny the comic content creator their right to explain their content that you are discussion. Its bias. And you know it. And that isn't anything new, that's all you have, that's all you've ever had. You can't discuss the facts without total inversion and you have absolutely no shame what so ever in warping thousands of years of religious history and feigning like you don't understand why I would post discussions by Maharishi, a famous Buddist Voidist, when we are talking about how Grant says this is based on the Buddhist cosmic map system.

I have trouble believing you really don't get it. You do. You just opt to make excuses and some of the worst arguments possible because thats all you can do against me. So is there anything else you want to get debunked on? Anything at all. We are up to like 30 topics and statements you fabricated and made up, and self reinterpreted in a different way that the scans said it was.

 

[Elizio33]

I love how a simple crt turned into a huge mess.

 

[Deagonx]

This is literally shown on the cosmic map as the source wall that is the red to violet.

You seem to have ignored the point of that scan. It shows that the Overvoid and the Source are the same, so your earlier assertion of the Overvoid being greater than the Source is contradicted by the comics, as well as several of Grant's interviews.

And, no, citing David Lynch as an inspiration due to his film work doesn't mean he was inspired by his TM practices.

This is incoherant nonsense, Voidism is the Maharishi's tangent of Buddism that he follows, and its ancient as hell. Your insisting that Voidist belief isn't the core of his preaching and the Kabbalah is a bold face fraudulent statement. Do better.

A bold face lie from you. He was a Buddist, stop your nonsense.

Did you read your own screenshot? Your first link literally says "Hindu Religious Leader"

Is the second link meant to prove he was a Buddhist? That's just a link to a course about Buddhism taught at a university Maharishi founded, taught by a guy named Evan Finkelstein, who teaches in the "Maharishi Vedic Science" department.

Do you know what Vedic science is? It means pertaining to the Vedas, which is the oldest scripture in Hinduism, and isn't recognized by Buddhism.

which is only found in Transcendental Meditation practice of the Buddist religion (its called Voidism

TM isn't Buddhist, it's Hindu.

Transcendental Meditation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Transcendental Meditation technique has been described as both religious and non-religious, as an aspect of a new religious movement, as rooted in Hinduism

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Religion: Hinduism

Some religious studies scholars have further said that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is one of a number of Indian gurus who brought neo-Hindu adaptations of Vedantic Hinduism to the west. Author Meera Nanda calls neo-Hinduism "the brand of Hinduism that is taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Deepak Chopra, and their clones"

MJ, you've picked an extremely odd hill to die on. Maharishi was Hindu, not Buddhist. He has no connection to Buddhism. His teacher was Hindu, he is from a Hindu region of India, his teachings are considered neo-Hindu.

You claimed Grant never said this is based on the Kabbalah or the Buddist maps?

No I didn't? I said that basing something on a religion doesn't make a character scale to it.

You claimed that Grant never said its based on the Kabbalah, yet the very Absolute Edition here says it is heavily inspired by it.

No it doesn't, it says to check out a guy named Laffoley who makes some Qabbalistic inspired architecture.

Your nonsense claims that the entire Orrery of Worlds is gone after Final Crisis is laughable

That's not my claim. It's what Grant said, directly.

So far mate you have been debunked on every single point possible

You just said Maharishi was a Buddhist and then posted a scan which called him Hindu.

 

[Deagonx]

I love how a simple crt turned into a huge mess.

I genuinely think the long-windedness is intended to deter people from following along easily. What he's saying is so absurd if met with even minor scrutiny.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I genuinely think the long-windedness is intended to deter people from following along easily. What he's saying is so absurd if met with even minor scrutiny.

Half the things he said don't make sense either way. He's just going to repeat the same point until the opposition eventually gives up.

 

[Elizio33]

I genuinely think the long-windedness is intended to deter people from following along easily. What he's saying is so absurd if met with even minor scrutiny.

Yeah, MJ doesn't seem to realize that Morrison just based his works on scientific and religious elements but didn't use them to be 100% accurate. It was just his source of inspiration for his stories. So all religious and scientific stuff MJ was keeping posting is totally irrelevant.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, MJ doesn't seem to realize that Morrison just based his works on scientific and religious elements but didn't use them to be 100% accurate. It was just his source of inspiration for his stories. So all religious and scientific stuff MJ was keeping posting is totally irrelevant.

I agree. Even if the connections to these religions wasn't so specious, it still wouldn't affect our scaling so it doesn't really matter. An author citing an inspiration doesn't give the Overvoid a bunch of attributes it was never stated to have in the comics itself.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

God, its so clear that Morrison does view Sphere as some type of conceptual form of the Orrery. Its a shame this will not get accepted

I love how a simple crt turned into a huge mess.

Mb

 

[Deagonx]

God, its so clear that Morrison does view Sphere as some type of conceptual form of the Orrery. Its a shame this will not get accepted

And what about Snyder and Tynion? Why are you so fixated on a single author?

Besides that, no one is denying the Sphere being conceptual.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

And what about Snyder and Tynion? Why are you so fixated on a single author?

I mean Snyder has always said he kinda uses Grants stuff word for word considering he works with him.

Also, is Absolute Multiversity an “author WoG” level scan or is it “Comics” level? As in, if i use scans from it, how reliable would it be in your opinion?

 

[Deagonx]

I mean Snyder has always said he kinda uses Grants stuff word for word considering he works with him

But he blatantly retconned multiple things Grant wrote lol.

Also, is Absolute Multiversity an “author WoG” level scan or is it “Comics” level? As in, if i use scans from it, how reliable would it be in your opinion?

It depends on how consistent it is with other information.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree. Even if the connections to these religions wasn't so specious, it still wouldn't affect our scaling so it doesn't really matter. An author citing an inspiration doesn't give the Overvoid a bunch of attributes it was never stated to have in the comics itself.

Exactly. Additionally, the Overvoid has been retconned over the years and now has an end according to Perpetua, which became even more evident in Joshua Williamson's Post-Dark Nights: Death Metal stories with the Great Darkness. This undoes what MJ said. But anyway, back on the topic.

 

[Elizio33]

If the Transduality page is being revised, this thread should stop until consensus comes from the Transduality thread.

 

[Kirinator07]

Might not be related, but we should remove Large Size 11 from the page and replace it with Large Size 10.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Might not be related, but we should remove Large Size 11 from the page and replace it with Large Size 10.

Seems fine if we use Williamson's logic that TGD is larger than the Overvoid. Also maybe whatever logic Synder had with the “end of the Void.” Which has many different interpretation.