Regarding FTL Kaido

[Damage3245]

We actually should.
If I'm on a planet moving at Mach 8, then I'm moving Mach 8. Compared to other people on the same planet moving at Mach 8, I'd be at rest, but compared to the universe, I'm moving at Mach 8.

I get what you mean, but it wouldn't be reflected on his profile. We don't rate characters as Mach 8 by default just because they exist on a planet.

No disrespect to you, but I'm not gonna argue with you against something that the wiki declined.
Kizaru said that he kicks at lightspeed and the wiki declined it, so anyone who uses that statement as an antifeat to me, I'm not paying any mind since it's been drilled into our brains that Kizaru doesn't kick that fast.

The "Wiki" is not a single entity. It is composed of multiple different people with their own views.

Don't use the opinions of other people as an excuse to dismiss the statement. Just because some people didn't agree with it several years ago doesn't mean it's more valid to ignore now.

Everyone who doesn't agree, state your reasons why you don't agree with FTL.

I've stated it up above. I think it is contradicted by the databook, that we should wait for more clarification in the manga. That Kizaru's own fighting style and actions contradict him scaling to FTL for his combat speed.

Let's see what happens when Kizaru actually gets involved in a Post-Timeskip fight.

 

[PrinceofPein]

We actually should.

If I'm on a planet moving at Mach 8, then I'm moving Mach 8. Compared to other people on the same planet moving at Mach 8, I'd be at rest, but compared to the universe, I'm moving at Mach 8.

Idk, go back in time to the people who didn't consider his leg kicks LS.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kizarus-combat-speed-while-his-body-is-light.100350/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/speed-upgrade-for-kizaru-and-high-top-tiers-of-one-piece.32452/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-speed-upgrade-discussion.55736/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-ls-and-ls-is-not-lifting-strength.110678/

No disrespect to you, but I'm not gonna argue with you against something that the wiki declined.
Kizaru said that he kicks at lightspeed and the wiki declined it, so anyone who uses that statement as an antifeat to me, I'm not paying any mind since it's been drilled into our brains that Kizaru doesn't kick that fast.

Its not disrespectful I wouldn't do the same, I'm still new here.
Went through the thread, there was something someone said that made sense
"He turns to light then materialize right before the kick"
Made some sense considering all his attacks and kicks in the thriller bark arc.

N.B.: This is all so confusing tho
He said he kicks at LS, turns to light then shown to materialize and slow down right before be hit Basil.

Well if anything I would wait for them ti show kizaru again in the manga, cause this means he is actually slower than light, so he won't be FTL in combat if he needed to to turn to light momentarily to kick faster

 

[Ryuga21]

Let's see what happens when Kizaru actually gets involved in a Post-Timeskip fight.

For me this matter could be shelved until that happens. Or until exist some legitimate FTL statement unlinked from Kizaru.

I don't want to comment nothing more than that for now. Just a doubt, when Ichiji's lasers was said to have the speed of light?

 

[KingTempest]

Spoiler: Obi2cool4kenobi's Response

Do we have actual statements he doesn't have haki?

Haki is perception, it wouldn't affect your movement. Haki doesn't make you faster.

Or are we assuming he doesn't until he gets actual statements/showings of being capable of using haki?

We have a strict guideline on Haki in OP.
If we don't see it or have a statement of being used, it'd be wrong to assume they used it.

This is why every time someone hurts Luffy without Koka, we assume it's 100% brute strength with no Haki.

LS in OP does seem contentious, but the scaling seems to be there. Granted, LS reactions via Observation seems like the safer bet, Ichiji feat seems valid to me.

Observation Haki is only used when the feat is good. When it's a bad feat, then no.
Luffy dodged the Pacifista's lasers, and with no proof at all, we all settled with him using Observation Haki.

As for the databook, if it's inconsistent with the manga, I'd toss it.

Agreed.

Spoiler: Damage3245's Response

I get what you mean, but it wouldn't be reflected on his profile. We don't rate characters as Mach 8 by default just because they exist on a planet.

That's just the planet portion though.
Kizaru while moving at LS via his DF and attacking at another speed is a speed he can use regardless of his location, whether in space, on a train, on earth, he'll move LS and he can kick on top of that.

The "Wiki" is not a single entity. It is composed of multiple different people with their own views.

Don't use the opinions of other people as an excuse to dismiss the statement. Just because some people didn't agree with it several years ago doesn't mean it's more valid to ignore now.

Fair

I've stated it up above. I think it is contradicted by the databook, that we should wait for more clarification in the manga. That Kizaru's own fighting style and actions contradict him scaling to FTL for his combat speed.

I'll answer this in it's own message.

Spoiler: Pain_to12's Response

Its not disrespectful I wouldn't do the same, I'm still new here.
Went through the thread, there was something someone said that made sense
"He turns to light then materialize right before the kick"
Made some sense considering all his attacks and kicks in the thriller bark arc.

N.B.: This is all so confusing tho
He said he kicks at LS, turns to light then shown to materialize and slow down right before be hit Basil.

Well if anything I would wait for them ti show kizaru again in the manga, cause this means he is actually slower than light, so he won't be FTL in combat if he needed to to turn to light momentarily to kick faster

Bro I don't even know who lied to you like that.
We see Kizaru's foot as light and he's applying force.

Just a doubt, when Ichiji's lasers was said to have the speed of light?

Basically the same laser tech as Franky

Adding another reason for the "likely" in this to be removed.
They basically say that Ichiji's lasers are the same as Franky's, saying that Sanji would be able to shoot lasers if he wore his raid suit (based off of Ichiji, the only person he's seen use lasers in a raid suit), and Sanji says that only Franky needs technology like that, which justified my previous claim in the other thread that Ichiji's lasers had a similarity to the Pacifista's lasers.

There's a known thing in the One Piece world as "Laser Tech", and it's all based off of Vegapunk's Lightspeed Lasers. Any technological based laser in One Piece should be the same as this.

And this thread got it accepted.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-ls-and-ls-is-not-lifting-strength.110678/

 

[KingTempest]

I've stated it up above. I think it is contradicted by the databook, that we should wait for more clarification in the manga. That Kizaru's own fighting style and actions contradict him scaling to FTL for his combat speed.

#1 Databook can be wrong and contradicted, which is why we don't use databook stats for most verses on this wiki, or why we don't use Zoro's scaling as "superior to all the other strawhats" via the "second strongest" statement, or Akainu's strongest offensive DF but he's not even top 5 on the wiki. Oda even has a statement in the SBS hinting to FTL Skypiea Luffy (even though it's 50% trolling) and we don't take it serious because of reasons, or Marco's "no limits regen" which is only Mid right now, or Luffy's immune to blunt attacks which we discredit and say resistance.

#2 This wiki works for "feats > statements". If we see someone outrun light and later down the line we get a random statement of otherwise, we'd take the feat.
There's more feats than antifeats.

#3 One character shouldn't stop a myriad of feats.
Those other feats aren't outliers or inconsistency. Kizaru is the outlier.

#4 We had lightspeed feats before Kizaru was even mentioned. This is not that bad.

#5 Why are we using statements to discredit feats now?
If we are, can we get High 3-A Blackbeard for infinite force? I'll take it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bro I don't even know who lied to you like that.
We see Kizaru's foot as light and he's applying force.

You just said that kizaru does not kick that fast

Yes what we see is his legs materializing after turning to light yes increases both force and speed never disputed this tho.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Haki is perception, it wouldn't affect your movement. Haki doesn't make you faster.

We have a strict guideline on Haki in OP.
If we don't see it or have a statement of being used, it'd be wrong to assume they used it.

Yeah, that question about him having haki was unrelated to the feat itself, which I agree with. I was asking how strict the guidelines were on haki, so thanks for the clarification. Just to clarify something else, didn't sanji's father say something about sanji using Haki? At the very least, the vinsmoke family knows what haki is and how it works if that's the case.

This is why every time someone hurts Luffy without Koka, we assume it's 100% brute strength with no Haki.

Fair

Observation Haki is only used when the feat is good. When it's a bad feat, then no.
Luffy dodged the Pacifista's lasers, and with no proof at all, we all settled with him using Observation Haki.

So luffy using Observation to dodge the Pacifista Lasers is accepted?

Marco's "no limits regen"

lol, we see marco bandaged up after marineford and the fight between the roger pirates.

 

[KingTempest]

You just said that kizaru does not kick that fast

I didn't say that, I said that his foot turns into light while others say otherwise

Yes what we see is his legs materializing after turning to light yes increases both force and speed never disputed this tho

.No, we see his leg still light as he kicks, and it doesn't stop being light when he made contact.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah, that question about him having haki was unrelated to the feat itself, which I agree with. I was asking how strict the guidelines were on haki, so thanks for the clarification.

Yeah no problem.

Just to clarify something else, didn't sanji's father say something about sanji using Haki? At the very least, the vinsmoke family knows what haki is and how it works if that's the case.

He was surprised that he used Busoshoku on his leg to block his attack.
Oda has a section in the databook where he puts a person's haki there.
Not a single Vinsmoke except Sanji has Haki in the databook.

So luffy using Observation to dodge the Pacifista Lasers is accepted?

Yup

lol, we see marco bandaged up after marineford and the fight between the roger pirates.

Showing that the databook can be wrong

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think KingTempest is making most sense here

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Showing that the databook can be wrong

In regards to this and the other things KingTempest said, he makes the most sense here.

 

[joshpiece]

After that, those who do agree, state your reasons why you do agree with FTL.

I agree with FTL Op, I think it’s not ok to say no to feats in the story bc of a databook statement. (There’s a reason Temari isn’t 3-A or The 9 tails being 5-B) Databook statements imo should always take a back seat to the manga/anime feats. I think it’s as simple as there’s an FTL feat that’s consistent let’s use it.

Also let’s keep in mind we are discussing a High tier and not a God tier... Op has specifically shown that admirals are not the cap or limit for anything power scaling wise.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

^I think the same as DDM.

 

[Damage3245]

Make One Piece FTL for now.

Let's make Franky's motorcycle have FTL travel speed too if you want.

I'll just hope that Oda provides some clarification in future chapters.

If Kizaru shows up and blitzes Luffy with an explicitly lightspeed attack, then I'm re-opening this thread up in an instant.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Let's make Franky's motorcycle have FTL travel speed too if you want. I'll just hope that Oda provides some clarification in future chapters.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Make One Piece FTL for now.

Let's make Franky's motorcycle have FTL travel speed too if you want.

I'll just hope that Oda provides some clarification in future chapters.

If Kizaru shows up and blitzes Luffy with an explicitly lightspeed attack, then I'm re-opening this thread up in an instant.

That's fair of course. Though considering Luffy is gonna almost certainly be a top tier by the end of this arc, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Like, how many top tiers did Kizaru actually blitz lol?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Should we make Pre-Time Skip zoro Relativistic via dodging speed of light attacks?

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Like, how many top tiers did Kizaru actually blitz lol?

God Usopp

 

[Elizhaa]

Databook statements are secondary canon to what is shown in the manga, according to the Canon page. I am a bit uneasy about the scaling from Kizaru's light but I guess KingTempest's arguments have more backing for now.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

God Usopp

Fair is fair. FTL OP is inconsistent because NOBODY can be faster than God Ussop himself.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Databook statements are secondary canon to what is shown in the manga

Kizaru also stated to be able to kick in speed of light in manga, I dont see contradiction or any problem here

 

[Elizhaa]

Make One Piece FTL for now.

Let's make Franky's motorcycle have FTL travel speed too if you want.

I'll just hope that Oda provides some clarification in future chapters.

If Kizaru shows up and blitzes Luffy with an explicitly lightspeed attack, then I'm re-opening this thread up in an instant.

Fair.

 

[Damage3245]

Kizaru also stated to be able to kick in speed of light in manga, I dont see contradiction or any problem here

Kizaru is going to have a slower kicking speed than post-timeskip Sanji, or Vergo.

If you don't think that's hilarious, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Kizaru is going to have a slower kicking speed than post-timeskip Sanji, or Vergo.

If you don't think that's hilarious, then I don't know what to say.

thats not relevant, I just said that cuz Elizh mentioned about manga being main canon than databook, which is true, I just said that manga also mentioned speed of light stuff

 

[Ryuga21]

Just imagine Kizaru's frustration at receiving a fruit that slows him down

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean feats can take precedence over the statements if they outnumber them many times over.

Personally, I have similar opinions to Damage's. Though, if I am outnumbered in my views, I would still be fine with the changes.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Just imagine Kizaru's frustration at receiving a fruit that slows him down

 

[KingTempest]

The moment Kizaru says "nothing can stop Light Speed", we'll argue.

Kizaru is really Dyspo for One Piece, that's funny.
I'm boutta go tackle MFTL+ DBS since Dyspo got lightspeed combat and everyone's slower than him.

I had a thought though.

Spoiler: Headcanon

Regular kicks needs to accelerate to get them to high speeds. So it goes from rest to whatever speed they kick at.

Light is always lightspeed.

What if Kizaru's light makes him start at lightspeed, then allows him to accelerate to higher speeds?

And is the scaling good?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Kizaru is really Dyspo for One Piece, that's funny.
I'm boutta go tackle MFTL+ DBS since Dyspo got lightspeed combat and everyone's slower than him.

Dyspo was actually stated to have surpassed the speed of light, so GG.

 

[KingTempest]

Dyspo was actually stated to have surpassed the speed of light, so GG.

Nobody else was though, so GG

 

[Damage3245]

Regular kicks needs to accelerate to get them to high speeds. So it goes from rest to whatever speed they kick at.
Light is always lightspeed.
What if Kizaru's light makes him start at lightspeed, then allows him to accelerate to higher speeds?

That still wouldn't line up with the statements because Kizaru states that he is kicking Hawins at the speed of light. It isn't implied that is a minimum speed that he accelerates from.

It's more likely that he goes from rest to lightspeed with his Devil Fruit-enhanced kicks.

 

[KingTempest]

Fair.

Is the scaling from before good?

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I agree with the scaling for FTL OP.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

The scaling is solid.
Subjectively, I would like LS in OP to be something achievable, but far more rare. That's just my personal viewpoint, objectively the scaling is solid, and until something along the lines Kizaru saying "nothing can stop Light Speed" presents itself as tempest said, it's valid.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The scaling is solid.
Subjectively, I would like LS in OP to be something achievable, but far more rare. That's just my personal viewpoint, objectively the scaling is solid, and until something along the lines Kizaru saying "nothing can stop Light Speed" presents itself as tempest said, it's valid.

This pretty much sums up my opinion very well.

The scaling is good, especially now that my only gripe with it has been resolved.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Nobody should jump me
Shouldnt the pages go something like either Light speed|unknown or unknown|possibly FTL

@KingTempest

 

[Bernkastelll]

Nobody should jump me
Shouldnt the pages go something like either Light speed|unknown or unknown|possibly FTL

@KingTempest

Possibly FTL seems good for now ig

 

[KingTempest]

Nobody should jump me
Shouldnt the pages go something like either Light speed|unknown or unknown|possibly FTL

@KingTempest

Wouldn't have to be unknown because they have solid feats.

Wouldn't have to be possibly because it's a solid feat and they solidly scale to the others. Not including the fact that the scaling chains would be so messed up that it's not funny.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Wouldn't have to be unknown because they have solid feats.

Wouldn't have to be possibly because it's a solid feat and they solidly scale to the others. Not including the fact that the scaling chains would be so messed up that it's not funny.

Well I don't mind just a suggestion, cause the said "solid feat" were disputed just that and also inconsistencies thats why I made that suggestion

 

[KingTempest]

Well I don't mind just a suggestion, cause the said "solid feat" were disputed just that and also inconsistencies thats why I made that suggestion

The inconsistency is the existence of Kizaru, and nobody actually targeted the feat, they just had issues with people punching faster than Kizaru can travel