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Regarding FTL Kaido

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I don't think that the feat for Rayleigh is valid for the same reason why it was removed from his profile in the first place. We don't see that Rayleigh started moving after Kizaru turned to light. The calc currently assumes that Rayleigh only started moving after Kizaru was moving at lightspeed.

This also brings us back into the contradictary position of Kizaru himself scaling to FTL and being faster than his own attacks when nothing in the series has suggested otherwise... I think we need more evidence for that.

I don't think that the calc should be used.
 
Antvasima said:
@Elizhaa @CinCameron20 @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest @Damage3245

What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
I wanted to hold off FTL OP, but since someone brought it up and it would be unfair to just close it, I'll put in my input.

There is no way for us to just say "there's a FTL calc, god tiers", no. We need to work out scaling.

I already have a calc worked out done by Ichiji that's been evaluated
vsbattles.fandom.com

Ichiji Zooms Through the Air

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Find a scaling from there
 
Damage3245 said:
This also brings us back into the contradictary position of Kizaru himself scaling to FTL and being faster than his own attacks when nothing in the series has suggested otherwise... I think we need more evidence for that.
Click to expand...
His attack and movement can be SoL but his combat can be faster.

If a high tier with no devil fruit now eats Enel's fruit, they'd be faster than their own fruit.

This isn't an issue
 
Ichiji pulled off the feat

Katakuri fought him, he scales.

Gear Fourth Luffy and the god tiers (Kaido and Big Mom) scale.
Cracker scales.

Gear Second Luffy possibly scales/backscales for matching Katakuri's hawk gatling.
Doffy would scale.
Admirals would scale to Doffy.
WB and Shanks scale.
Law scales to Doffy.
Vergo scales.
Sanji scales.

Who else?
 
KingTempest said:
Ichiji pulled off the feat

Sanji scales.

Who else?
Click to expand...
By Sanji, you mean in his Raid-Suit, right?

But overall, if FTL is consistent, I'm willing to accept this (even though it's ironic that Kizaru would be using transportation via a power that's slower than himsel--well to be fair, travel-speed in OP is very very slow)

EDIT: Also, can I add "After-image creation" for Doflamingo? I just realized he doesn't have it on his profile, but he has several instances of making an after-image whilst moving.
 
Damage3245 said:
Aren't we forgetting a line from the databook about Kizaru? That only people with exceptional Observation Haki can even keep up with his lightspeed attacks? It also says that his Devil Fruit is about speed. Would be weird is Kizaru himself and all of his peers were faster than it.

But we're going to scale a ton of Post-Timeskip characters like the likes of base Sanji to Faster Than Light?
Click to expand...
I agree. It's totally fine if we've only got a handful of the strongest and fastest characters scaling... But SANJI and those around him?

KingTempest said:
Vergo ~ Smoker ~ Law as well
Click to expand...
From Vergo's profile: "At least Massively Hypersonic+ (At least as fast as Diamante and Pica), possibly Relativistic+ with Soru (This technique greatly increases the speed of the user. He blitzed Trafalgar Law from several meters away. However, this display is unreliable as Law later easily dispatched Vergo with casual effort after having retrieved his heart)"
 
Damage3245 said:
Aren't we forgetting a line from the databook about Kizaru? That only people with exceptional Observation Haki can even keep up with his lightspeed attacks?
Click to expand...
Luffy before he even learned Haki kept up with his attacks
Damage3245 said:
But we're going to scale a ton of Post-Timeskip characters like the likes of base Sanji to Faster Than Light?
Click to expand...
A FTL feat from a mid tier means that a good amount of people scale.
It's obviously not everybody like the Corrida Colliseum people, but all the main combatants (Luffy, Sanji, Zoro, Ichiji, Vergo) and the god tiers scale.
 
CinCameron20 said:
From Vergo's profile: "At least Massively Hypersonic+ (At least as fast as Diamante and Pica), possibly Relativistic+ with Soru (This technique greatly increases the speed of the user. He blitzed Trafalgar Law from several meters away. However, this display is unreliable as Law later easily dispatched Vergo with casual effort after having retrieved his heart)"
Click to expand...
Needs to be revised.

Should be comparable to Smoker who's comparable to Law.

He has no valid reason to scale to Diamante and Pica, who's attacks can be blocked by Robin and intercepted by Sai.

We shouldn't scale off of rank that often.
 
Lets better revise those characters and scale them when the Wano Arc ends since we don't know what will happen in the other entire chapters the best options is to wait for now to have more consistent scaling with better feats👍🏽
 
As I have not yet arrived at this part, I cannot give my opinion on it, so if you want to expect that, it would be good.

I calculated several feats of Pre-Time Skip and will post as soon as I get to each part, which makes the scale very consistent.
 
@Darkvie123 - Revising characters on events before Wano is fine. We're just not applying it to characters during Wano (unless there's a glaring issue, like if Dressrosa Base Luffy ended up being 6-C for some reason while Wano Luffy is left unedited at 7-A)

KingTempest said:
Needs to be revised.

Should be comparable to Smoker who's comparable to Law.

He has no valid reason to scale to Diamante and Pica, who's attacks can be blocked by Robin and intercepted by Sai.

We shouldn't scale off of rank that often.
Click to expand...
Fair enough for Vergo = Dia/Pica

About Smoker being comparable to Law, it seems strange given that Law must have been toying with Smoker, as it became part of his plan to swap out Smoker and Monet's hearts and his intentions did not involve killing Smoker. We see several panels where Smoker appears to have "unexpectedly" got behind Law, but we can see Law's eyes tracking him, and he's just standing there, not surprised. The only time he looked shocked was when he learned Smoker was using Sea-stone.
  • It also wouldn't make much sense for Law to be struggling with Smoker, who lost to Vergo, then Law immediately taking down Vergo with consummate ease. He was definitely holding back against Smoker.
Are we really comfortable with saying: Smoker = Vergo = Law =/< Doflamingo, who is evidently way faster than Smoker (Blitzing him, also faster than Gear 2nd Luffy, who Smoker could not track with his eyes or Haki) just because Smoker fought against Law, who was not intent on killing him (and took him down rather easily tbh)?
 
CinCameron20 said:
About Smoker being comparable to Law, it seems strange given that Law must have been toying with Smoker, as it became part of his plan to swap out Smoker and Monet's hearts and his intentions did not involve killing Smoker. We see several panels where Smoker appears to have "unexpectedly" got behind Law, but we can see Law's eyes tracking him, and he's just standing there, not surprised. The only time he looked shocked was when he learned Smoker was using Sea-stone.
Click to expand...
Smoker consistently kept up with Law.
Intercepted his sword.
Grabbed his neck even though we see Law reacting.
Intercepting his swing again.
Keeping up with him here.
CinCameron20 said:
  • It also wouldn't make much sense for Law to be struggling with Smoker, who lost to Vergo, then Law immediately taking down Vergo with consummate ease. He was definitely holding back against Smoker.
Click to expand...
Vergo just got out of a fight with Smoker, and there was nothing that he could do since Law was going to cut through whatever he threw at him, which he did.
CinCameron20 said:
Are we really comfortable with saying: Smoker = Vergo = Law =/< Doflamingo, who is evidently way faster than Smoker (Blitzing him,
Click to expand...
Doflamingo and Smoker's fight was off screen. We only see 1 hand of Doffy then we see cuts throughout Smoker's whole body later.
CinCameron20 said:
also faster than Gear 2nd Luffy, who Smoker could not track with his eyes or Haki)
Click to expand...
Smoker never fought G2nd Luffy. That was Tashigi in Smoker's body.
CinCameron20 said:
just because Smoker fought against Law, who was not intent on killing him (and took him down rather easily tbh)?
Click to expand...
Law only won by taking his heart out tbh, Smoker was pressuring him.
 
KingTempest said:
Smoker consistently kept up with Law.
Intercepted his sword.
Grabbed his neck even though we see Law reacting.
Intercepting his swing again.
Keeping up with him here.

Vergo just got out of a fight with Smoker, and there was nothing that he could do since Law was going to cut through whatever he threw at him, which he did.

Doflamingo and Smoker's fight was off screen. We only see 1 hand of Doffy then we see cuts throughout Smoker's whole body later.

Smoker never fought G2nd Luffy. That was Tashigi in Smoker's body.

Law only won by taking his heart out tbh, Smoker was pressuring him.
Click to expand...
1) I'm just saying Law was definitely holding back, but of course that is pretty much speculation and may not impact the scaling discussion at all.

2) Only point I was making is that Law was tracking Vergo and took him out before Vergo could get close enough.

3) There was no fight. We see Doflamingo's hand, a subordinate worried about Smoker, then Smoker's blood and cigars flying. We next see him when he has 5 parallel cuts from the top of his head to his upper chest, which implies Doflamingo hit him with a Goshikito, nearly killing Smoker.
  • Unlike the anime which for some reason needed to make Smoker last way longer, and Doflamingo FOR SOME REASON needing to target G5 in order to lure Smoker into an attack, like what? Vergo > Doflamingo confirmed.
4) I was referring to when Smoker was in Tashigi's body, and attacked Luffy in chapter 670. Luffy blitzed the second he went Gear 2nd despite trolling, but I understand why this point might not mean much if there's a chance that Tashigi's eye-sight can not track Luffy (Even with Smoker taking control and having Haki)

5) I wouldn't say that. Law brought up a rock through Smoker's body, but then just stood there and waited for Smoker to make another move. He seemed to have been doing that A LOT in this fight.
 
Vinsmoke Ichiji
Speed: Unknown, FTL with Raid Suit (Outran his own lasers)

Charlotte Katakuri
Speed: FTL (Superior to Raid Suit Ichiji)

Luffy's first 2 keys
Speed: FTL (Shouldn't be far slower than Katakuri, and he dodged a large number of his attacks. Katakuri said that nobody has dodged his attacks that much), higher with Gear 4th (Boundman blitzed Doflamingo from hundreds of meters away. Outsped Charlotte Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers) | FTL (Faster than before), higher with Gear 4th (Faster than Charlotte Katakuri, who needed to use his Future Sight to consistently keep up with him in their fight)

Charlotte Cracker
Speed: FTL (Can keep up with and react to Gear 2nd Luffy), possibly higher with Biscuit Soldiers (Able to somewhat keep up with Boundman Luffy), FTL himself (He was able to react to Gear 4th Luffy's attacks)

Donquixote Doflamingo
Speed: FTL (Faster than Gear 2nd Luffy)

Roronoa Zoro
Speed: FTL (Blitzed Overdosed Hyouzou, while a base Hyouzou could react and block an attack from Gear Second Luffy. Kept pace with Gear Second Luffy and Fujitora) | FTL (Faster than before. Speedblitzed Scratchmen Apoo and X Drake)

Trafalgar Law
Speed: FTL (Although slower than Doflamingo, Law was capable of catching many of his attacks, and could react to him. He could also react to and time his teleportation perfectly with Luffy's Red Hawk), capable of teleportation by applying Shambles on himself and another person or object within his Room

Kaido
Speed: FTL (Blitzed Gear 4th Luffy. Stated to be too fast by a Luffy who was using Kenbunshoku Haki, when a weaker Luffy who was also using Kenbunshoku Haki considered Light Speed to be slow)

Big Mom
Speed: FTL (Intercepted a blow from Gear 4th Luffy quite casually, and she matched Kaido in a fight)

Aokiji
Speed: FTL (Superior to Doflamingo)

Akainu
Speed: FTL (Battled Kuzan for ten days)

Marco
Speed: FTL (Marco was capable of surprising Aokiji and Kizaru on more than one occasion, and could keep pace with the latter off-panel)

Kizaru
Speed: FTL Combat and Reaction speeds (Can match Marco in combat blow for blow), Speed of Light movement via light-dispersion (Capable of moving his own body at the speed of light) and attack speed (Can fire light beams and attacks at this speed)

Rayleigh
Speed: FTL (Comparable to Kizaru)

Whitebeard
Speed: FTL (Faster than his old self, as Marco stated that he would have had no problems dealing with surprise attacks) | FTL (Should be faster than the 3 Admirals. He managed to outspeed Aokiji from meters away, and could dodge and deflect attacks from Kizaru and Akainu)

Shanks
Speed: FTL (Matched Whitebeard, and was also able to come out of nowhere to intercept and block an attack from Akainu in the Marineford Battle)

Roger
Speed: FTL (Comparable to Whitebeard back at his prime)

Oden
Speed: FTL (Intercepted Whitebeard. Blocked an attack from Gol D. Roger. Speedblitzed Kaido)
 
Last edited:
Also.

Pacifista
Speed: Possibly Speed of Light with laser beams (These beams work the same way as Kizaru's light beams)

Franky
Speed: Likely Speed of Light with Franky Radical Beam (Caesar Clown stated that only Vegapunk, who based his in Kizaru's power could create a laser beam. And Franky got this technology from Vegapunk's laboratory)

Can we remove the "Possibly" and "Likely"?

It's not "possible" to be the same speed for something that's explained to "work the same way".
And Franky's laser is the same exact laser.

Also, Ichiji
Speed: Likely Speed of Light movement and attack with Sparking Valkyrie (Functions similarly to light beams and should be capable of moving at such speeds. Given that Ichiji's younger brother Niji is stated to move at light-speed with his Henry Blazer attack, it's reasonable to suggest he too can move with such speed)"

Adding another reason for the "likely" in this to be removed.
They basically say that Ichiji's lasers are the same as Franky's, saying that Sanji would be able to shoot lasers if he wore his raid suit (based off of Ichiji, the only person he's seen use lasers in a raid suit), and Sanji says that only Franky needs technology like that, which justified my previous claim in the other thread that Ichiji's lasers had a similarity to the Pacifista's lasers.

There's a known thing in the One Piece world as "Laser Tech", and it's all based off of Vegapunk's Lightspeed Lasers. Any technological based laser in One Piece should be the same as this.

Also the fact that the scaling wouldn't go through if it wasn't a solid "Speed of Light".
 
I'd rather us wait for more solid confirmation on the characters being faster than light.

The Databooks don't support it; with emphasis being that Kizaru's Devil Fruit is about speed, that fighters would need excellent Observation Haki just to keep up with his movements.

Whereas here you've got Gear 2 Luffy at FTL and even a low tier like Hyouzou who isn't confirmed to have any kind of Haki could react to Luffy's attack.

Kaido, potentially the strongest character in the verse, being FTL isn't enough either for me to be comfortable with all of these other characters scaling to FTL.
 
is it even relevant? Databook to upgrade characters is unreliable, but to downplay characters it is?
Click to expand...

One of the primary reasons why Kizaru's movement and beams are accepted as lightspeed is because of the databook. Same for Niji.

Dismissing the info from the databook because it doesn't favor the FTL scaling is rather biased.
 
I personally do not mind KingTempest's scaling suggestions, but we need more staff input before they might be applied.
 
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