Regarding FTL Kaido

[KingTempest]

Why isn't kizaru handily above marco?

Marco intercepted his attack on a god tier and fought him for a long period of time off screen.

Marco couldn't even negate akainu's intangibility.

Denying the antecedent.

Yeah I know the feat is for Ichi. Like I said, why should Kizaru get it? Other than @KingTempest 's opinion what FACTS put him above Ichi?

Kizaru matched Marco. The same exact Marco who intercepted/blitzed/tagged Aokiji. The same Aokiji who could freeze Doflamingo before Doflamingo could move his hand a few inches. The same Doflamingo who was FTE to Gear Second Luffy. The same Luffy that dodged a large number of Katakuri's attacks. The same Katakuri that manhandled Ichiji. The same Ichiji who outran light.

 

[KingTempest]

Nobody has yet to answer this question.

I'll answer using a previously used statement to counter me when I asked the same question as you.

1) When he claims the "SoL kick", that doesn't translate to combat speed--only attack speed. Therefore his light-transformed attacks and beams are "SoL Attack Speed". Combat Speed generally refers to a speed at which a character can act and react to in the middle of combat. For current calcs and scaling, there's nothing to really scale Kizaru to light speed and he can only scale to characters he has been shown matching in speed during combat (i.e Marco and Rayleigh).

• "Speed of Light movement via light-dispersion (Capable of moving his own body at the speed of light) and attack speed (Can fire light beams and attacks at this speed)" These do not apply to Combat Speed as it has yet to be proven that Kizaru can combat at LS and react accordingly. He always telegraphs before he applies the LS movement.

 

[KingTempest]

Sonic from OPM is MHS+ to Rela+ and his attacks are described as only at the speed of sound

Dyspo is MFTL+ and his attacks are described as only at the speed of light.
Dragonite is Rel+ and his attacks are described as only at the speed of sound.
Yami is Rel+ with FTL reactions in his first key while having a statement that lightspeed is speed that he can't avoid.

This isn't anything new.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Kizaru matched Marco

That puts his combat speed at approx 53c.

The same exact Marco who intercepted/blitzed/tagged Aokiji.

That maybe puts Aokiji combat speed below 53c, though he was busy with Luffy.

he same Aokiji who could freeze Doflamingo before Doflamingo could move his hand a few inches

Irrelevant.

 

[KingTempest]

That maybe puts Aokiji combat speed below 53c, though he was busy with Luffy.

He has Kenbunshoku and he reacted to a point blank tackle from Jozu, not an issue.

Irrelevant.

How is this irrelevant?
Also he popped up out of nowhere on a proficient Kenbunshoku user (Doflamingo). He definitely scales.

 

[Damage3245]

^ Just to note, Kenbunshoku Haki isn't active at all times. It is also something that works best when the user has a calm mind.

 

[Dr.Fix]

He has Kenbunshoku and he reacted to a point blank tackle from Jozu, not an issue.

He got bulldozed. Weird to call that a reacted to him.

 

[KingTempest]

He got bulldozed. Weird to call that a reacted to him.

Notice how he started turning his face to ice after he stares at this big buff diamond goof.

^ Just to note, Kenbunshoku Haki isn't active at all times. It is also something that works best when the user has a calm mind.

Fair

 

[Dr.Fix]

Notice how he started turning his face to ice after he stares at this big buff diamond goof.

Fair

You are confusing noticed with reacted.

 

[KingTempest]

You are confusing noticed with reacted.

Fine, he perceived/noticed it.

 

[Antvasima]

Votes are not how we do things here. We go by staff consensus after the regular members have presented their arguments.

 

[KingTempest]

I apologize for my ignorance.

Which staff members should I call? I know DDM was fine with it and Elizhaa was partially fine w/ it iirc.

Ant do you have any opinion on which should go?

 

[Damage3245]

I think it's a bit of misrepresentation to say that Kizaru's stated speed is the sole thing that opposes the idea of FTL speed in One Piece.

I don't know how worthwhile it would be to even bring up other antifeats though. When bringing up the characters being hit by lightning, I was told that it didn't matter.

Fine, he perceived/noticed it.

Anyone could probably notice a bullet-train speeding towards them in their peripheral vision even if they could do nothing to get out of the way. Noticing something heading towards you doesn't seem like that much of a significant feat without the follow-up reactions.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't know how worthwhile it would be to even bring up other antifeats though. When bringing up the characters being hit by lightning, I was told that it didn't matter.

Ignore those people. I was the only one to bring up actual feats of those people dodging explicitly lightning speed lightning several arcs before.

Anyone could probably notice a bullet-train speeding towards them in my peripheral vision even if they could do nothing to get out of the way. Noticing something heading towards you doesn't seem like that much of a significant feat without the follow-up reactions.

The point is that he perceived/noticed one but couldn't perceive/notice the other.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can send notifications to some non-bureaucrat staff members listed in the One Piece verse page.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I only suggested those who could arguably scale above Kizaru, such as Rayleigh and Kaido to be upgraded to FTL. I don't know why y'all trying to apply this to lower tiers, I was just attempting to give a specific value to Kaido's FTL tier. Lol

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I only suggested those who could arguably scale above Kizaru, such as Rayleigh and Kaido to be upgraded to FTL. I don't know why y'all trying to apply this to lower tiers, I was just attempting to give a specific value to Kaido's FTL tier. Lol

Too late for that lol. You've accidentally started a civil war.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He was never stated to be the fastest in Germa.
Let's remember that this is travel speed, not combat speed, and it says "similar" to the speed of light in his vivre card.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightspeed-niji.108148/

Which can mean faster or slower.

Your calc put Whitebeard almost FTL+.

But let's focus in on this.


Exactly.

Anti FTL​

Kizaru's in canon Combat Speed.

Pro FTL​

Water 7 Noro Noro Beams.
Thriller Bark Lasers
Thriller Bark Paw Cannons
Sabaody Lasers
Sabaody 2.0
WCI Lasers.
Wano Lasers from Queen.

Which one looks more consistent?

Oh yeah, the multiple Sub-Rel to Rel feats, and the one FTL feat, huh?

You can only say the lasers are SoL, but the characters that dodged them, most of them having Observation, are only calced to be in the Relativistic range, and got crippled when the actual consistent LS character fought them. That's not "pro FTL", at all.

The one 5c feat can then be classified as Outlier with the series' scaling.

 

[joshpiece]

and got crippled when the actual consistent LS character fought them.

Who are you referring to?

Marco did not get crippled from clashing with Kizaru if that’s what you are implying.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh yeah, the multiple Sub-Rel to Rel feats, and the one FTL feat, huh?

Databook: You need Kenbunshoku to react.
Manga: Several characters without Kenbunshoku react.

You can only say the lasers are SoL,

Noro Noro beams accepted SoL
There's 3 4 different lasers

but the characters that dodged them, most of them having Observation,

Everybody pre TS had no observation except Rayleigh and Marco and we explicitly see them fight after

are only calced to be in the Relativistic range, and got crippled when the actual consistent LS character fought them.

When they all reacted to him?
And those are all Pre TS supporting Post TS.
Lemme see Kizaru blitz a high tier.

That's not "pro FTL", at all.

Definitely not anti

The one 5c feat can then be classified as Outlier with the series' scaling.

Aren't you trying to promote a 1c+ feat, we have a 9c WB feat, and some more...

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message if you need my help after you have reached a consensus.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I think tempest's point makes the most sense.

 

[Dr.Fix]

That said, the anime is horrendous. Does anyone have the panel of Ichi attacking oven in the canon? The anime scene doesn't look like he is firing anything. It just looks like the effect you see from anime where the background gets a cool effect.

Still waiting for an answer to this. Watched it a few times now and at no point do lasers fire out of his hands.

 

[KingTempest]

Still waiting for an answer to this. Watched it a few times now and at no point do lasers fire out of his hands.

Lasers definitely do point out of his hands. They specifically Zoom into the hands in the anime too.

And the attack literally means Spark Light Fists

 

[Dr.Fix]

And the attack literally means Spark Light Fists

Exactly why I asked. It looked like a melee attack which is boosted by his "sparks", rather than a range attack.

 

[XDragnoir]

I jumped most of thread but i need to ask, we aren't accepting Databook statements anymore? Because we accepted Asura = G3 when we revised Pre-TS.

 

[KingTempest]

I jumped most of thread but i need to ask, we aren't accepting Databook statements anymore? Because we accepted Asura = G3 when we revised Pre-TS.

We accept Databook statements when they don't contradict manga

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Case by case basis I'd say. The discussion was more on it being secondary and it could be wrong.

 

[KingTempest]

Luffy reacts to Kizaru's laser as it's being fired, and we see the blue Kanji above Luffy's head signifying that it's been fired.

Ivankov winks and sends Luffy flying before the laser that has already been fired hits Luffy.

Direct reaction and perception to Kizaru without Observation Haki.
Another feat.

 

[KingTempest]

In all honesty, my relative velocity point makes much more sense.
Relative velocity is a factual boost, which is why travel speed amps amplify combat speed too. Examples are Soru and Geppo. Other series? Shunpo and Shunshin.

And have we ever thought that "Kizaru's movements" mean like his complex movements while being blinded in your face or something while having your attacks predicted with Kenbunshoku?

The databook never said that you need advanced Observation to perceive Lightspeed, it said you need advanced Observation to perceive Kizaru, so there's obviously more to it than just being lightspeed.​

Oda knew about Faraday cages and friction and Vitamin C. I'm pretty sure he'd know that Photons are lightspeed (Foxy), rays of light that shine on people are lightspeed (Kizaru's travel speed technique), and so on, and that his cast consistently reacts to it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Luffy reacts to Kizaru's laser as it's being fired, and we see the blue Kanji above Luffy's head signifying that it's been fired.

Noticed is the word not react lmao, noticed the shining leg.
Before the beam was released

 

[XDragnoir]

So, everyone with a "possibly Rel+" would get "possibly FTL" instead?

 

[PrinceofPein]

you need advanced Observation to perceive Kizaru

After talking about his DF that makes him fast?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Databook: You need Kenbunshoku to react.
Manga: Several characters without Kenbunshoku react.

Correction, you need Kenbunshoku to KEEP UP. Everyone who reacted to it wasn't able to keep up with it at ALL.

Noro Noro beams accepted SoL
There's 3 4 different lasers

Fair enough, still not Pro FTL.

Everybody pre TS had no observation except Rayleigh and Marco and we explicitly see them fight after

We don't know that. With the exception of Luffy and Zoro, and Luffy was implied to have it during Marineford.

When they all reacted to him?
And those are all Pre TS supporting Post TS.
Lemme see Kizaru blitz a high tier.

You can react to light being Sub-Rel, no one is keeping up with consistent Lightspeed Attacks other than the actual Top Tiers of the Pre TS era.

Definitely not anti

Not my point, having 4 SoL attacks and Sub-Rel to Rel feats is not pro FTL at all.

Aren't you trying to promote a 1c+ feat, we have a 9c WB feat, and some more...

Oh yeah, I'm the one trying to backscale a single feat to Low and Mid Tiers, huh? I'm promoting the 1.59c feat for those who scale above the literal Lightspeed guy

Also, if you're gonna use rejected feats, don't try stopping people from using certain arguments because "hey, it was rejected before", that's just hypocritical.

I'm all good with FTL One Piece, but FTL Kizaru and FTL Early Post TS is just stupid.

 

[KingTempest]

Noticed is the word not react lmao, noticed the shining leg.

I keep getting it mixed up

Before the beam was released

The Kanji above Luffy's head signifies fast moving objects, most likely projectiles. So yes, Luffy noticed the laser.

I explained it here.

Some More FTL OP Calcs (And justifications)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[KingTempest]

Correction, you need Kenbunshoku to KEEP UP. Everyone who reacted to it wasn't able to keep up with it at ALL.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/speed-upgrade-for-kizaru-and-high-top-tiers-of-one-piece.32452/

Impossible to GRASP.

Fair enough, still not Pro FTL.

Noro Noro beams are during Water 7. If they're that fast that far ago, imagine them now.

We don't know that. With the exception of Luffy and Zoro, and Luffy was implied to have it during Marineford.

Both unconscious and random.

You can react to light being Sub-Rel, no one is keeping up with consistent Lightspeed Attacks other than the actual Top Tiers of the Pre TS era.

Read above, not keep up, grasp.

Not my point, having 4 SoL attacks and Sub-Rel to Rel feats is not pro FTL at all.

Having those feats pre timeskip is definitely pro timeskip

Oh yeah, I'm the one trying to backscale a single feat to Low and Mid Tiers, huh? I'm promoting the 1.59c feat for those who scale above the literal Lightspeed guy

I'm promoting a 5.7c feat for those who scale above the guy who outran lightspeed, we're in the same predicament.

Also, if you're gonna use rejected feats, don't try stopping people from using certain arguments because "hey, it was rejected before", that's just hypocritical.

Fair

I'm all good with FTL One Piece, but FTL Kizaru and FTL Early Post TS is just stupid.

If there's a bunch of rel feats when they're fodder, I'd think FTL minimum when they're stronger makes a lot more sense.

 

[Ryuga21]

I keep getting it mixed up

The Kanji above Luffy's head signifies fast moving objects, most likely projectiles. So yes, Luffy noticed the laser.

Luffy had noticed it before, see the previous panel again and you will notice that has an effect indicating it on top of his head.

 

[KingTempest]

Luffy had noticed it before, see the previous panel again and you will notice that has an effect indicating it on top of his head.

That's fair, but we still see him staring directly at it tho, but fair game, yours is definitely more supported.

What's more though? Ivankov definitely reacted to it, Magellan scales to the exact same technique, and Luffy scales.

 

[XDragnoir]

Ivankov winks and sends Luffy flying before the laser that has already been fired hits Luffy.

I mean, even if the verse gets FTL everyone, why wouldn't this be an outlier for Ivankov?

 

[KingTempest]

I mean, even if the verse gets FTL everyone, why wouldn't this be an outlier for Ivankov?

Ivankov reacted to lasers from Kizaru, then right after he reacted to them from the Pacifista. 2 different sources.

To be an outlier, you need more antifeats than feats.

He has no antifeats.