Regarding FTL Kaido

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @CinCameron20 @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin

What do you think about KingTempest's suggested scaling?

 

[Bernkastelll]

One of the primary reasons why Kizaru's movement and beams are accepted as lightspeed is because of the databook

Kizaru also stated that he attacks on speed of light during the show, I dont see how using databook statement is more fair

Dismissing the info from the databook because it doesn't favor the FTL scaling is rather biased.

you're literally dismissing all others points, you're being biased here sir, not me

 

[KingTempest]

I'd rather us wait for more solid confirmation on the characters being faster than light.

Ichiji outran his lasers which are called light.
Regardless of the standards in the wiki, Ichiji's lasers in series are lightspeed (maybe not to the Wiki, but mangaka and other characters who compare their lasers to lightspeed lasers and name them light have them lightspeed), and he outran them.

That's as close as it can get.

The Databooks don't support it; with emphasis being that Kizaru's Devil Fruit is about speed, that fighters would need excellent Observation Haki just to keep up with his movements.

And this databook statement is contradicted time and time again when we have people reacting to light since water 7, and every instance is an outlier.

Ivankov intercepted Kizaru's laser and hit Luffy before the laser did. Ivankov, who has no Haki whatsoever.

They kept up with Foxy's lasers which is an outlier on this site because of "reasons".

An injured Zoro was dodging lasers in Thriller Bark.

Have we ever thought that maybe Kizaru's the inconsistent one instead of everybody else? There's more feats than antifeats

Whereas here you've got Gear 2 Luffy at FTL and even a low tier like Hyouzou who isn't confirmed to have any kind of Haki could react to Luffy's attack.

And Pre Timeskip Luffy who had no type of Haki could react directly to Kizaru in his light form. This is not an issue.

Hyouzou isn't a low tier, he took a hit from Luffy with no issues and poisoned him before Luffy's Gear Second arm could move back.

Kaido, potentially the strongest character in the verse, being FTL isn't enough either for me to be comfortable with all of these other characters scaling to FTL.

Kaido blitzing someone who called lightspeed slow is the prime example of "FTL is real" in OP. It's really hard to counter that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'd rather us wait for more solid confirmation on the characters being faster than light.

The Databooks don't support it; with emphasis being that Kizaru's Devil Fruit is about speed, that fighters would need excellent Observation Haki just to keep up with his movements.

Whereas here you've got Gear 2 Luffy at FTL and even a low tier like Hyouzou who isn't confirmed to have any kind of Haki could react to Luffy's attack.

Kaido, potentially the strongest character in the verse, being FTL isn't enough either for me to be comfortable with all of these other characters scaling to FTL.

Aside from that the basis for FTL kaido was the pacifists beams possibly LS, which is arguable

 

[Damage3245]

Ichiji outran his lasers which are called light.
Regardless of the standards in the wiki, Ichiji's lasers in series are lightspeed (maybe not to the Wiki, but mangaka and other characters who compare their lasers to > lightspeed lasers and name them light have them lasers), and he outran them.

That's as close as it can get.

I meant more than just Ichiji, whose feat I'm not comfortable using to upgrade most of the Post-Timeskip verse.

Have we ever thought that maybe Kizaru's the inconsistent one instead of everybody else? There's more feats than antifeats

The wiki doesn't care about antifeats I've learned.

Here we have Killer and Kid being taken down by lightning bolts in the current fight, but I'm willing to bet most people on here would shrug and say "They must have been Faster Than Light lightning bolts."

And Pre Timeskip Luffy who had no type of Haki could react directly to Kizaru in his light form. This is not an issue.

He couldn't. Luffy got blitzed by Kizaru and could not defend against him.

Kaido blitzing someone who called lightspeed slow is the prime example of "FTL is real" in OP. It's really hard to counter that.

Personally, I don't think Luffy was commenting on the laser-beam itself. I think he was commenting that the Pacifista was "Too slow" for him, which he proved by blitzing the Pacifista and beating it down. But the more common interpretation is that Luffy was talking about the laser beam itself since he said it in the same panel where he dodged it.

If Luffy got hit by a lightspeed attack from Kizaru next arc, I bet we'd end up with people say "Kizaru used Faster Than Light lightspeed to hit him".

 

[Bernkastelll]

Here we have Killer and Kid being taken down by lightning bolts in the current fight, but I'm willing to bet most people on here would shrug and say "They must have been Faster Than Light lightning bolts."

thats the most common thing that fiction has, there has a lot of FTL/MFTL+ characters that use lightning attacks, I don't see it as a problem, also, u need to remember that they can dodge lightning since Skypiea

Personally, I don't think Luffy was commenting on the laser-beam itself. I think he was commenting that the Pacifista was "Too slow" for him, which he proved by blitzing the Pacifista and beating it down.

So, Luffy dodging Pacifista beams and calling it as too slow means that Luffy was talking only to Pacifista movement speed instead of the beams that he dodged? Lol, ok.

But the more common interpretation is that Luffy was talking about the laser beam itself since he said it in the same panel where he dodged it.

Yeh, due the reason that I explained, it should be obvious

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Vinsmoke Ichiji
Speed: Unknown, FTL with Raid Suit (Outran his own lasers)

Charlotte Katakuri
Speed: FTL (Superior to Raid Suit Ichiji)

Luffy's first 2 keys
Speed: FTL (Can dodge a large number of Katakuri's attacks. Katakuri said that nobody has dodged his attacks this much), higher with Gear 4th (Boundman blitzed Doflamingo from hundreds of meters away. Outsped Charlotte Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers) | FTL (Faster than before), higher with Gear 4th (Faster than Charlotte Katakuri, who needed to use his Future Sight to consistently keep up with him in their fight)

Charlotte Cracker
Speed: FTL (Can keep up with and react to Gear 2nd Luffy), possibly higher with Biscuit Soldiers (Able to somewhat keep up with Boundman Luffy), FTL himself (He was able to react to Gear 4th Luffy's attacks)

Donquixote Doflamingo
Speed: FTL (Faster than Gear 2nd Luffy)

Roronoa Zoro
Speed: FTL (Blitzed Overdosed Hyouzou, while a base Hyouzou could react and block an attack from Gear Second Luffy. Kept pace with Gear Second Luffy and Fujitora) | FTL (Faster than before. Speedblitzed Scratchmen Apoo and X Drake)

Trafalgar Law
Speed: FTL (Although slower than Doflamingo, Law was capable of catching many of his attacks, and could react to him. He could also react to and time his teleportation perfectly with Luffy's Red Hawk), capable of teleportation by applying Shambles on himself and another person or object within his Room

Kaido
Speed: FTL (Blitzed Gear 4th Luffy. Stated to be too fast by a Luffy who was using Kenbunshoku Haki, when a weaker Luffy who was also using Kenbunshoku Haki considered Light Speed to be slow)

Big Mom
Speed: FTL (Intercepted a blow from Gear 4th Luffy quite casually, and she matched Kaido in a fight)

Aokiji
Speed: FTL (Superior to Doflamingo)

Akainu
Speed: FTL (Battled Kuzan for ten days)

Marco
Speed: FTL (Marco was capable of surprising Aokiji and Kizaru on more than one occasion, and could keep pace with the latter off-panel)

Kizaru
Speed: FTL Combat and Reaction speeds (Can match Marco in combat blow for blow), Speed of Light movement via light-dispersion (Capable of moving his own body at the speed of light) and attack speed (Can fire light beams and attacks at this speed)

Rayleigh
Speed: FTL (Comparable to Kizaru)

Whitebeard
Speed: FTL (Faster than his old self, as Marco stated that he would have had no problems dealing with surprise attacks) | FTL (Should be faster than the 3 Admirals. He managed to outspeed Aokiji from meters away, and could dodge and deflect attacks from Kizaru and Akainu)

Shanks
Speed: FTL (Matched Whitebeard, and was also able to come out of nowhere to intercept and block an attack from Akainu in the Marineford Battle)

Roger
Speed: FTL (Comparable to Whitebeard back at his prime)

Oden
Speed: FTL (Intercepted Whitebeard. Blocked an attack from Gol D. Roger. Speedblitzed Kaido)

Most of this looks good to me, but I already made my reservations about base Luffy scaling to Katakuri known to you in private. I really don't think it's correct at all, but other than that, I'm fine with FTL One Piece.

 

[KingTempest]

I meant more than just Ichiji, whose feat I'm not comfortable using to upgrade most of the Post-Timeskip verse.

We have Ichiji, Ivankov, Whitebeard's calc from Ryuga (got declined tho, but still works), Kaido, everybody who tagged Luffy while he used Kenbunshoku, this isn't anything.

The wiki doesn't care about antifeats I've learned.

Here we have Killer and Kid being taken down by lightning bolts in the current fight, but I'm willing to bet most people on here would shrug and say "They must have been Faster Than Light lightning bolts."

The first scan is Zoro, not Killer, and that's the same Zoro who reacted to lightning 700 chapters ago against someone with a lightning Devil Fruit and has calcs of reacting to lightning, and scales above someone who reacted and intercepted it + half a dozen people who dodged it.

Luffy got tagged by the same lightning bolts in his strongest form and he has Observation Haki.
Same Luffy who scales to his peers who dodged lightning 700 chapters ago.
Same Luffy who kicked a lightning bolt out of mid air 700 chapters ago.

Kid is the same person who moved his leg out of the way when he saw the Pacifista's laser and got lightly skimmed by it.

They have more lightning feats than antifeats.

He couldn't. Luffy got blitzed by Kizaru and could not defend against him.

Nevermind then, he perceived Kizaru then, for lack of better terms.

Personally, I don't think Luffy was commenting on the laser-beam itself. I think he was commenting that the Pacifista was "Too slow" for him, which he proved by blitzing the Pacifista and beating it down. But the more common interpretation is that Luffy was talking about the laser beam itself since he said it in the same panel where he dodged it.

It'd be very hard to stare at a laser and say "too slow" and think he was talking about anything but the laser.
Regardless, Luffy dodged one casually with the movement of his head and couldn't dodge one while moving his whole body and using Advanced Observation Haki while hearing the user call out the attack.

If Luffy got hit by a lightspeed attack from Kizaru next arc, I bet we'd end up with people say "Kizaru used Faster Than Light lightspeed to hit him".

For the longest we didn't even consider Kizaru's lasers lightspeed until the vivre cards said so, so now if the lightspeed is being used as an antifeat in the future, it just shows a lot of issues with the "antifeats" thrown at the series.

 

[KingTempest]

Most of this looks good to me, but I already made my reservations about base Luffy scaling to Katakuri known to you in private. I really don't think it's correct at all, but other than that, I'm fine with FTL One Piece.

For some reason we have Gear Second Luffy's speed as his base speed. We have nothing for his base speed. So that one is only for Gear 2nd, which shouldn't be too far away from Katakuri since Katakuri needed more hands to match Luffy's 2 hands using a Jet Gatling.

But yeah I heard you, Base Luffy (if we ever add base Luffy's speed) won't scale to Katakuri.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Here we have Killer and Kid being taken down by lightning bolts in the current fight, but I'm willing to bet most people on here would shrug and say "They must have been Faster Than Light lightning bolts."

I understand your reservations to an extent, but I really don't think this argument in particular is valid at all.
As others have pointed out, this is an extremely common trope in fiction. There are countless examples of characters who are FAR faster than lightning/light using lightning based attacks. This is nothing new or unique to One Piece.

Also, as Tempest mentioned, much weaker characters (or weaker versions of the same characters) have reacted to and dodged lightning hundreds of chapters prior.

 

[Damage3245]

I understand your reservations to an extent, but I really don't think this argument in particular is valid at all.
As others have pointed out, this is an extremely common trope in fiction. There are countless examples of characters who are FAR faster than lightning/light using lightning based attacks. This is nothing new or unique to One Piece.

Also, as Tempest mentioned, much weaker characters (or weaker versions of the same characters) have reacted to and dodged lightning hundreds of chapters prior.

Some of those feats, like Usopp and Nami in particular, I don't consider to be any better than gag feats.

I can see why some people would see otherwise though.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So that one is only for Gear 2nd, which shouldn't be too far away from Katakuri since Katakuri needed more hands to match Luffy's 2 hands using a Jet Gatling.

I'm not really sure this is enough reason to say that G2 is equal to Katakuri either tbh. To me, it seemed more like Katakuri was just mocking/toying with Luffy by copying and enhancing his abilities. It would also go against him easily matching G3 Luffy in strength, and even scaling partially to Boundman and fully to Snakeman, who should both be superior to G2 in speed.
I personally think it'd be better for G2 Luffy to either scale from another character, or at most downscale from Katakuri.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm not really sure this is enough reason to say that G2 is equal to Katakuri either tbh. To me, it seemed more like Katakuri was just mocking/toying with Luffy by copying and enhancing his abilities. It would also go against him easily matching G3 Luffy in strength, and even scaling partially to Boundman and fully to Snakeman, who should both be superior to G2 in speed.
I personally think it'd be better for G2 Luffy to either scale from another character, or at most downscale from Katakuri.

He'd downscale from Kata then, that'd be better. I'll revise above

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He'd downscale from Kata then, that'd be better. I'll revise above

A

 

[PrinceofPein]

An injured Zoro was dodging lasers in Thriller Bark

Same zoro that could not react to natural lightning in enel arc? Yes outlier

 

[PrinceofPein]

Kaido blitzing someone who called lightspeed slow is the prime example of "FTL is real" in OP. It's really hard to counter that.

Possibly light speed tbh, the entire straw hats crew dodging it pre time skip doesnt help,
Aim dodging
Doubt

 

[PrinceofPein]

Here we have Killer and Kid being taken down by lightning bolts in the current fight, but I'm willing to bet most people on here would shrug and say "They must have been Faster Than Light lightning bolts."

But they are literally natural lightning from a cloud

 

[PrinceofPein]

thats the most common thing that fiction has, there has a lot of FTL/MFTL+ characters that use lightning attacks, I don't see it as a problem, also, u need to remember that they can dodge lightning since Skypiea

But Zeus uses natural lightning tho
Like I said speed in one piece is inconsistent on so many occasions

 

[Ryuga21]

I have only two problems: Databook considers that only characters with good observation can handle the speed of light. And Kizaru himself needs become light to attack at high-speed.

I'm in favor of One Piece being FTL, and I believe that. But for now, this is contradictory. Instead, we could classify the characters with "At least Speed of Light with Observation Haki", at least for now, until Kizaru appears again in the plot (which certainly won't take long).

 

[Damage3245]

@Pain_to12; don't spam multiple replies so quickly.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Zoro who reacted to lightning 700 chapters

Uhhmmm zoro got blitzed by enel lightning right after enel took down the locals chairman and robin

 

[Damage3245]

I have only two problems: Databook considers that only characters with good observation can handle the speed of light. And Kizaru himself needs become light to attack at high-speed.

I'm in favor of One Piece being FTL, and I believe that. But for now, this is contradictory. Instead, we could classify the characters with "At least Speed of Light with Observation Haki", at least for now, until Kizaru appears again in the plot (which certainly won't take long).

Glad to see somebody agrees.

And that is a good point. Why on Earth would Kizaru attack somebody with his Devil Fruit at lightspeed if he could kick faster & harder than that with his normal physicals?

Every time we see Kizaru zipping around the battlefield; it's with his high-speed Devil Fruit. But he and all of his peers are actually several times faster than that on their own?

 

[Bernkastelll]

But Zeus uses natural lightning tho

Nami can dodge lightning that the clima tact created, it literally create clouds and others crap that envolves weather, it seems natural as well

 

[KingTempest]

I have only two problems: Databook considers that only characters with good observation can handle the speed of light.

And we disregard the databook when it's inconsistent with the manga, like every other series.
Ichiji has no haki and he outran lasers.
Ivankov has no haki and he reacted to lasers repeatedly and even has his own relativistic feat.
Lemme not even talk about Foxy, he's controversial.

And Kizaru himself needs become light to attack at high-speed.

He needs to become light to travel at high speed.
This is the combat speed vs travel speed argument. Most of these DFs affect travel speed, but their combat speed isn't affected.

Why on Earth would Kizaru attack somebody with his Devil Fruit at lightspeed if he could kick faster & harder than that with his normal physicals?

Big Mom is relativistic+ and she uses lightning bolts.

Every time we see Kizaru zipping around the battlefield; it's with his high-speed Devil Fruit. But he and all of his peers are actually several times faster than that on their own

I punch faster than a car moves.
I still take the car to get to my destination.

 

[KingTempest]

Kizaru's fruit does not affect his combat speed.

Kizaru's fruit affects his travel speed.

His combat speed is independent of his attack and travel speed.

Kizaru can turn into light and move around our planet 7.5x in 1 second.

He can punch and kick faster.

Stop using travel speed arguments against combat.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Nami can dodge lightning that the clima tact created, it literally create clouds and others crap that envolves weather, it seems natural as well

Yes should be assumed natural so as zeus
Edit: nami didnt exactly dodge if she was not directly below the cloud

 

[Bernkastelll]

Edit: nami didnt exactly dodge if she was not directly below the cloud

look at her feet, she exactly jumped to not be hit

 

[PrinceofPein]

kick faster.

This would be head canon on your path
Kizaru is majorly known for his kick at LS......, even in marineford, the WB pirates and navy fodders even mentioned something like "Thats the popular light speed kick" iirc

 

[PrinceofPein]

C

look at her feet, she exactly jumped to be not affected be hit

Look before, she was outside the clouds, maybe she ran to avoid getting hit since she was too close to it, but how her tempo works is by hitting anything below the cloud not outside or the surrounding.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Kizaru's fruit does not affect his combat speed.

Kizaru's fruit affects his travel speed.

His combat speed is independent of his attack and travel speed.

Kizaru can turn into light and move around our planet 7.5x in 1 second.

He can punch and kick faster.

Stop using travel speed arguments against combat.

Yeah, honestly this makes sense to me.
One Piece characters have abysmal travel/running speed in all honesty, so Kizaru is indeed much faster than most of the verse by a very large margin. This, however, does not necessarily apply to their combat and reaction speeds, as they have consistently demonstrated these speeds through in-combat feats.

Denying these feats would be akin to denying Naruto being any higher than MHS because Raiton Jutsu exist, or like saying nobody can be faster than lightning in OP because Enel exists. Just makes no sense.

 

[KingTempest]

This would be head canon on your path
Kizaru is majorly known for his kick at LS......, even in marineford, the WB pirates and navy fodders even mentioned something like "Thats the popular light speed kick" iirc

You're late.

This wiki said "no" to that statement.
Kizaru used to be MHS combat while this statement existed, and the only time he was Speed of Light was via lasers and light dispersion. Proof? Check his history, prime example right here.
I brought it up in the other thread and they said that it's attack speed, not combat speed.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Look before, she was outside the clouds, maybe she ran to avoid getting hit since she was too close to it, but how her tempo works is by hitting anything below the cloud not outside or the surrounding.

even if she was before, she appears in the other painel jumping, which means that the lightning was going to hit her but she jump to avoid it

 

[Damage3245]

Big Mom is relativistic+ and she uses lightning bolts.

Not quite the same thing. This is Kizaru's physical attacks we're talking about.

He uses his Devil Fruit to enhance his speed to kick at the speed of light.

That would mean he is intentionally slowing himself down for no good reason.

And Big Mom is only Relativistic+ because we rate her that way. Not to get too meta about this, but it is also possible that Oda doesn't consider her to be like that, and either way, it could just in-character for her to bombard her enemies with lightning regardless of how fast she is personally. She uses her Homies quite a lot to fight even when according to her the lack of her Homies doesn't make it any easier to defeat her.

 

[KingTempest]

Question.

We all know what relative velocity is right?

Good.

If Kizaru moves at lightspeed, then he kicks, relative velocity would say that he's FTL, am I right?

 

[Damage3245]

Question.

We all know what relative velocity is right?

Good.

If Kizaru moves at lightspeed, then he kicks, relative velocity would say that he's FTL, am I right?

I wouldn't say so. Couldn't the same thing be said about humans on the Earth? The Earth itself is moving through space at several kilometers per second, but we don't consider ourselves to actually be moving that fast when we're running, objectively speaking.

To keep things simple, Kizaru being lightspeed would just mean that Kizaru is being lightspeed.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You're late.

This wiki said "no" to that statement.
Kizaru used to be MHS combat while this statement existed, and the only time he was Speed of Light was via lasers and light dispersion. Proof? Check his history, prime example right here.
I brought it up in the other thread and they said that it's attack speed, not combat speed.

What I am saying is, if he is faster than that normally, why would he need to turn his legs to have particle of light to kick at LS when he can kick faster naturally?

Kizaru can't be MHS, he will still scale to characters like Marco and Rayleigh

 

[PrinceofPein]

even if she was before, she appears in the other painel jumping, which means that the lightning was going to hit her but she jump to avoid it

I am sure you will take cover even if the damage from a grenade going off won't reach you.
It does not matter anyway, the current nami should be MHS if not way more anyway

 

[KingTempest]

I wouldn't say so. Couldn't the same thing be said about humans on the Earth? The Earth itself is moving through space at several kilometers per second, but we don't consider ourselves to actually be moving that fast when we're running, objectively speaking.

We actually should.

If I'm on a planet moving at Mach 8, then I'm moving Mach 8. Compared to other people on the same planet moving at Mach 8, I'd be at rest, but compared to the universe, I'm moving at Mach 8.

What I am saying is, if he is faster than that normally, why would he need to turn his legs to have particle of light to kick at LS when he can kick faster naturally?

Idk, go back in time to the people who didn't consider his leg kicks LS.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kizarus-combat-speed-while-his-body-is-light.100350/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/speed-upgrade-for-kizaru-and-high-top-tiers-of-one-piece.32452/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-speed-upgrade-discussion.55736/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/one-piece-ls-and-ls-is-not-lifting-strength.110678/

No disrespect to you, but I'm not gonna argue with you against something that the wiki declined.
Kizaru said that he kicks at lightspeed and the wiki declined it, so anyone who uses that statement as an antifeat to me, I'm not paying any mind since it's been drilled into our brains that Kizaru doesn't kick that fast.

 

[KingTempest]

Let's make this much more organized. We haven't agreed on anything yet.

Everyone who doesn't agree, state your reasons why you don't agree with FTL.

After that, those who do agree, state your reasons why you do agree with FTL.

Other staff members/knowledgeable members will judge.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Ichiji has no haki and he outran lasers.

Do we have actual statements he doesn't have haki? Or are we assuming he doesn't until he gets actual statements/showings of being capable of using haki?
LS in OP does seem contentious, but the scaling seems to be there. Granted, LS reactions via Observation seems like the safer bet, Ichiji feat seems valid to me.

As for the databook, if it's inconsistent with the manga, I'd toss it.