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What do you think about KingTempest's suggested scaling?
What do you think about KingTempest's suggested scaling?
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Kizaru also stated that he attacks on speed of light during the show, I dont see how using databook statement is more fairOne of the primary reasons why Kizaru's movement and beams are accepted as lightspeed is because of the databook
you're literally dismissing all others points, you're being biased here sir, not meDismissing the info from the databook because it doesn't favor the FTL scaling is rather biased.
Ichiji outran his lasers which are called light.I'd rather us wait for more solid confirmation on the characters being faster than light.
And this databook statement is contradicted time and time again when we have people reacting to light since water 7, and every instance is an outlier.The Databooks don't support it; with emphasis being that Kizaru's Devil Fruit is about speed, that fighters would need excellent Observation Haki just to keep up with his movements.
And Pre Timeskip Luffy who had no type of Haki could react directly to Kizaru in his light form. This is not an issue.Whereas here you've got Gear 2 Luffy at FTL and even a low tier like Hyouzou who isn't confirmed to have any kind of Haki could react to Luffy's attack.
Kaido blitzing someone who called lightspeed slow is the prime example of "FTL is real" in OP. It's really hard to counter that.Kaido, potentially the strongest character in the verse, being FTL isn't enough either for me to be comfortable with all of these other characters scaling to FTL.
Aside from that the basis for FTL kaido was the pacifists beams possibly LS, which is arguableI'd rather us wait for more solid confirmation on the characters being faster than light.
The Databooks don't support it; with emphasis being that Kizaru's Devil Fruit is about speed, that fighters would need excellent Observation Haki just to keep up with his movements.
Whereas here you've got Gear 2 Luffy at FTL and even a low tier like Hyouzou who isn't confirmed to have any kind of Haki could react to Luffy's attack.
Kaido, potentially the strongest character in the verse, being FTL isn't enough either for me to be comfortable with all of these other characters scaling to FTL.
Ichiji outran his lasers which are called light.
Regardless of the standards in the wiki, Ichiji's lasers in series are lightspeed (maybe not to the Wiki, but mangaka and other characters who compare their lasers to > lightspeed lasers and name them light have them lasers), and he outran them.
That's as close as it can get.
Have we ever thought that maybe Kizaru's the inconsistent one instead of everybody else? There's more feats than antifeats
And Pre Timeskip Luffy who had no type of Haki could react directly to Kizaru in his light form. This is not an issue.
Kaido blitzing someone who called lightspeed slow is the prime example of "FTL is real" in OP. It's really hard to counter that.
thats the most common thing that fiction has, there has a lot of FTL/MFTL+ characters that use lightning attacks, I don't see it as a problem, also, u need to remember that they can dodge lightning since Skypiea
So, Luffy dodging Pacifista beams and calling it as too slow means that Luffy was talking only to Pacifista movement speed instead of the beams that he dodged? Lol, ok.Personally, I don't think Luffy was commenting on the laser-beam itself. I think he was commenting that the Pacifista was "Too slow" for him, which he proved by blitzing the Pacifista and beating it down.
Yeh, due the reason that I explained, it should be obviousBut the more common interpretation is that Luffy was talking about the laser beam itself since he said it in the same panel where he dodged it.
Most of this looks good to me, but I already made my reservations about base Luffy scaling to Katakuri known to you in private. I really don't think it's correct at all, but other than that, I'm fine with FTL One Piece.Vinsmoke Ichiji
Speed: Unknown, FTL with Raid Suit (Outran his own lasers)
Charlotte Katakuri
Speed: FTL (Superior to Raid Suit Ichiji)
Luffy's first 2 keys
Speed: FTL (Can dodge a large number of Katakuri's attacks. Katakuri said that nobody has dodged his attacks this much), higher with Gear 4th (Boundman blitzed Doflamingo from hundreds of meters away. Outsped Charlotte Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers) | FTL (Faster than before), higher with Gear 4th (Faster than Charlotte Katakuri, who needed to use his Future Sight to consistently keep up with him in their fight)
Charlotte Cracker
Speed: FTL (Can keep up with and react to Gear 2nd Luffy), possibly higher with Biscuit Soldiers (Able to somewhat keep up with Boundman Luffy), FTL himself (He was able to react to Gear 4th Luffy's attacks)
Donquixote Doflamingo
Speed: FTL (Faster than Gear 2nd Luffy)
Roronoa Zoro
Speed: FTL (Blitzed Overdosed Hyouzou, while a base Hyouzou could react and block an attack from Gear Second Luffy. Kept pace with Gear Second Luffy and Fujitora) | FTL (Faster than before. Speedblitzed Scratchmen Apoo and X Drake)
Trafalgar Law
Speed: FTL (Although slower than Doflamingo, Law was capable of catching many of his attacks, and could react to him. He could also react to and time his teleportation perfectly with Luffy's Red Hawk), capable of teleportation by applying Shambles on himself and another person or object within his Room
Kaido
Speed: FTL (Blitzed Gear 4th Luffy. Stated to be too fast by a Luffy who was using Kenbunshoku Haki, when a weaker Luffy who was also using Kenbunshoku Haki considered Light Speed to be slow)
Big Mom
Speed: FTL (Intercepted a blow from Gear 4th Luffy quite casually, and she matched Kaido in a fight)
Aokiji
Speed: FTL (Superior to Doflamingo)
Akainu
Speed: FTL (Battled Kuzan for ten days)
Marco
Speed: FTL (Marco was capable of surprising Aokiji and Kizaru on more than one occasion, and could keep pace with the latter off-panel)
Kizaru
Speed: FTL Combat and Reaction speeds (Can match Marco in combat blow for blow), Speed of Light movement via light-dispersion (Capable of moving his own body at the speed of light) and attack speed (Can fire light beams and attacks at this speed)
Rayleigh
Speed: FTL (Comparable to Kizaru)
Whitebeard
Speed: FTL (Faster than his old self, as Marco stated that he would have had no problems dealing with surprise attacks) | FTL (Should be faster than the 3 Admirals. He managed to outspeed Aokiji from meters away, and could dodge and deflect attacks from Kizaru and Akainu)
Shanks
Speed: FTL (Matched Whitebeard, and was also able to come out of nowhere to intercept and block an attack from Akainu in the Marineford Battle)
Roger
Speed: FTL (Comparable to Whitebeard back at his prime)
Oden
Speed: FTL (Intercepted Whitebeard. Blocked an attack from Gol D. Roger. Speedblitzed Kaido)
We have Ichiji, Ivankov, Whitebeard's calc from Ryuga (got declined tho, but still works), Kaido, everybody who tagged Luffy while he used Kenbunshoku, this isn't anything.I meant more than just Ichiji, whose feat I'm not comfortable using to upgrade most of the Post-Timeskip verse.
The first scan is Zoro, not Killer, and that's the same Zoro who reacted to lightning 700 chapters ago against someone with a lightning Devil Fruit and has calcs of reacting to lightning, and scales above someone who reacted and intercepted it + half a dozen people who dodged it.
Nevermind then, he perceived Kizaru then, for lack of better terms.He couldn't. Luffy got blitzed by Kizaru and could not defend against him.
It'd be very hard to stare at a laser and say "too slow" and think he was talking about anything but the laser.Personally, I don't think Luffy was commenting on the laser-beam itself. I think he was commenting that the Pacifista was "Too slow" for him, which he proved by blitzing the Pacifista and beating it down. But the more common interpretation is that Luffy was talking about the laser beam itself since he said it in the same panel where he dodged it.
For the longest we didn't even consider Kizaru's lasers lightspeed until the vivre cards said so, so now if the lightspeed is being used as an antifeat in the future, it just shows a lot of issues with the "antifeats" thrown at the series.If Luffy got hit by a lightspeed attack from Kizaru next arc, I bet we'd end up with people say "Kizaru used Faster Than Light lightspeed to hit him".
For some reason we have Gear Second Luffy's speed as his base speed. We have nothing for his base speed. So that one is only for Gear 2nd, which shouldn't be too far away from Katakuri since Katakuri needed more hands to match Luffy's 2 hands using a Jet Gatling.Most of this looks good to me, but I already made my reservations about base Luffy scaling to Katakuri known to you in private. I really don't think it's correct at all, but other than that, I'm fine with FTL One Piece.
I understand your reservations to an extent, but I really don't think this argument in particular is valid at all.
I understand your reservations to an extent, but I really don't think this argument in particular is valid at all.
As others have pointed out, this is an extremely common trope in fiction. There are countless examples of characters who are FAR faster than lightning/light using lightning based attacks. This is nothing new or unique to One Piece.
Also, as Tempest mentioned, much weaker characters (or weaker versions of the same characters) have reacted to and dodged lightning hundreds of chapters prior.
I'm not really sure this is enough reason to say that G2 is equal to Katakuri either tbh. To me, it seemed more like Katakuri was just mocking/toying with Luffy by copying and enhancing his abilities. It would also go against him easily matching G3 Luffy in strength, and even scaling partially to Boundman and fully to Snakeman, who should both be superior to G2 in speed.So that one is only for Gear 2nd, which shouldn't be too far away from Katakuri since Katakuri needed more hands to match Luffy's 2 hands using a Jet Gatling.
He'd downscale from Kata then, that'd be better. I'll revise aboveI'm not really sure this is enough reason to say that G2 is equal to Katakuri either tbh. To me, it seemed more like Katakuri was just mocking/toying with Luffy by copying and enhancing his abilities. It would also go against him easily matching G3 Luffy in strength, and even scaling partially to Boundman and fully to Snakeman, who should both be superior to G2 in speed.
I personally think it'd be better for G2 Luffy to either scale from another character, or at most downscale from Katakuri.
AHe'd downscale from Kata then, that'd be better. I'll revise above
An injured Zoro was dodging lasers in Thriller Bark
Possibly light speed tbh, the entire straw hats crew dodging it pre time skip doesnt help,Kaido blitzing someone who called lightspeed slow is the prime example of "FTL is real" in OP. It's really hard to counter that.
But Zeus uses natural lightning thothats the most common thing that fiction has, there has a lot of FTL/MFTL+ characters that use lightning attacks, I don't see it as a problem, also, u need to remember that they can dodge lightning since Skypiea
Uhhmmm zoro got blitzed by enel lightning right after enel took down the locals chairman and robinZoro who reacted to lightning 700 chapters
I have only two problems: Databook considers that only characters with good observation can handle the speed of light. And Kizaru himself needs become light to attack at high-speed.
I'm in favor of One Piece being FTL, and I believe that. But for now, this is contradictory. Instead, we could classify the characters with "At least Speed of Light with Observation Haki", at least for now, until Kizaru appears again in the plot (which certainly won't take long).
Nami can dodge lightning that the clima tact created, it literally create clouds and others crap that envolves weather, it seems natural as wellBut Zeus uses natural lightning tho
And we disregard the databook when it's inconsistent with the manga, like every other series.I have only two problems: Databook considers that only characters with good observation can handle the speed of light.
He needs to become light to travel at high speed.And Kizaru himself needs become light to attack at high-speed.
Big Mom is relativistic+ and she uses lightning bolts.Why on Earth would Kizaru attack somebody with his Devil Fruit at lightspeed if he could kick faster & harder than that with his normal physicals?
I punch faster than a car moves.Every time we see Kizaru zipping around the battlefield; it's with his high-speed Devil Fruit. But he and all of his peers are actually several times faster than that on their own
Yes should be assumed natural so as zeusNami can dodge lightning that the clima tact created, it literally create clouds and others crap that envolves weather, it seems natural as well
look at her feet, she exactly jumped to not be hitEdit: nami didnt exactly dodge if she was not directly below the cloud
This would be head canon on your pathkick faster.
Look before, she was outside the clouds, maybe she ran to avoid getting hit since she was too close to it, but how her tempo works is by hitting anything below the cloud not outside or the surrounding.look at her feet, she exactly jumped to be not affected be hit
Yeah, honestly this makes sense to me.Kizaru's fruit does not affect his combat speed.
Kizaru's fruit affects his travel speed.
His combat speed is independent of his attack and travel speed.
Kizaru can turn into light and move around our planet 7.5x in 1 second.
He can punch and kick faster.
Stop using travel speed arguments against combat.
You're late.This would be head canon on your path
Kizaru is majorly known for his kick at LS......, even in marineford, the WB pirates and navy fodders even mentioned something like "Thats the popular light speed kick" iirc
even if she was before, she appears in the other painel jumping, which means that the lightning was going to hit her but she jump to avoid itLook before, she was outside the clouds, maybe she ran to avoid getting hit since she was too close to it, but how her tempo works is by hitting anything below the cloud not outside or the surrounding.
Big Mom is relativistic+ and she uses lightning bolts.
Question.
We all know what relative velocity is right?
Good.
If Kizaru moves at lightspeed, then he kicks, relative velocity would say that he's FTL, am I right?
What I am saying is, if he is faster than that normally, why would he need to turn his legs to have particle of light to kick at LS when he can kick faster naturally?You're late.
This wiki said "no" to that statement.
Kizaru used to be MHS combat while this statement existed, and the only time he was Speed of Light was via lasers and light dispersion. Proof? Check his history, prime example right here.
I brought it up in the other thread and they said that it's attack speed, not combat speed.
I am sure you will take cover even if the damage from a grenade going off won't reach you.even if she was before, she appears in the other painel jumping, which means that the lightning was going to hit her but she jump to avoid it
We actually should.I wouldn't say so. Couldn't the same thing be said about humans on the Earth? The Earth itself is moving through space at several kilometers per second, but we don't consider ourselves to actually be moving that fast when we're running, objectively speaking.
Idk, go back in time to the people who didn't consider his leg kicks LS.What I am saying is, if he is faster than that normally, why would he need to turn his legs to have particle of light to kick at LS when he can kick faster naturally?
Do we have actual statements he doesn't have haki? Or are we assuming he doesn't until he gets actual statements/showings of being capable of using haki?Ichiji has no haki and he outran lasers.