Regarding FTL Kaido

[Bernkastelll]

The inconsistency is the existence of Kizaru, and nobody actually targeted the feat, they just had issues with people punching faster than Kizaru can travel

I mean, yes, it isnt rlly a contradiction, because OP characters usually are slow in travel speed, luffy was taking a lot of time to reach Ace, and these are others things as well, Kizaru is SoL in travel speed, however, the characters have reaction and combat speed faster than light, as proved on the thread, at least this is how I see the things

 

[KingTempest]

Vergo
Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (At least as fast as Diamante and Pica), possibly Relativistic+ with Soru (This technique greatly increases the speed of the user. He blitzed Trafalgar Law from several meters away. However, this display is unreliable as Law later easily dispatched Vergo with casual effort after having retrieved his heart)

I'll change the ratings for the speed, but is this justification alright?
This is how it was before. Are we gonna leave him comparable to his peers or no.
This would make Diamante scale, which makes Nico Robin scale (she has a feat of reacting to amped Hyouzou who scales to Gear 2nd Luffy), also Monet scales (reacted to Zoro and Luffy).

 

[Antvasima]

Damage makes a good point that it doesn't make sense for Kizaru to be slower than other weaker characters thanks to his logia ability.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Damage makes a good point that it doesn't make sense for Kizaru to be slower than other weaker characters thanks to his logia ability.

it already was debated here that it applies to his travel speed

 

[joshpiece]

Wouldn't Kizaru be FTL combat speed by power scaling and Sol travel speed

 

[KingTempest]

Damage makes a good point that it doesn't make sense for Kizaru to be slower than other weaker characters thanks to his logia ability.

We decided that his DF ability makes his travel speed higher than any other travel speed shown in the series, but his natural combat speed is higher than his travel speed and higher than everyone else as well.

He needs to become light to travel at high speed.
This is the combat speed vs travel speed argument. Most of these DFs affect travel speed, but their combat speed isn't affected.

I punch faster than a car moves.
I still take the car to get to my destination.

Kizaru's fruit does not affect his combat speed.

Kizaru's fruit affects his travel speed.

His combat speed is independent of his attack and travel speed.

Kizaru can turn into light and move around our planet 7.5x in 1 second.

He can punch and kick faster.

Stop using travel speed arguments against combat.

 

[Purgy]

How is it only travel speed when he both kicks (turns his leg into light) and shoots beams at light speed? That's combat and attack speed, not just travel speed.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

How is it only travel speed when he both kicks (turns his leg into light) and shoots beams at light speed? That's combat and attack speed, not just travel speed.

Apparently him kicking at light speed has been rejected.

 

[KingTempest]

Wouldn't Kizaru be FTL combat speed by power scaling and Sol travel speed

Yes.

How is it only travel speed when he both kicks (turns his leg into light) and shoots beams at light speed? That's combat and attack speed, not just travel speed.

Travel and Attack. Read above for Combat

 

[Bernkastelll]

How is it only travel speed when he both kicks (turns his leg into light) and shoots beams at light speed? That's combat and attack speed, not just travel speed.

I didnt said that he would be only SoL in travel speed, Ant said that doesnt makes sense OP characters be FTL if Kizaru has the fruit of light, and I explained that Kizaru is the only character that has SoL travel speed, as he can turn into light and move, however, OP characters has FTL reactions and combat speed, also does Kizaru, the only thing here is because only kizaru has SoL travel speed

 

[Purgy]

Apparently him kicking at light speed has been rejected.

How? We're both shown it happening and it's stated...

 

[Damage3245]

it already was debated here that it applies to his travel speed

How can it only apply to his travel speed? He literally uses his Devil Fruit to amp up his kicks to lightspeed.

Can somebody explain to me how Kizaru kicking is not "combat speed"?

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

How is it only travel speed when he both kicks (turns his leg into light) and shoots beams at light speed? That's combat and attack speed, not just travel speed.

Yes, but everyone else also has SoL combat speed. The difference is Kizaru has SoL travel speed unlike everyone else.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

How? We're both shown it happening and it's stated...

Shrugs

I have no idea tbh, but Tempest linked the threads where it was rejected earlier I believe.

 

[Purgy]

Can somebody explain to me how Kizaru kicking is not "combat speed"?

This is my point exactly, it is a combat speed feat.

 

[Bernkastelll]

How can it only apply to his travel speed? He literally uses his Devil Fruit to amp up his kicks to lightspeed.

his combat speed and reactions should be FTL, this is the reason that SoL only applied to travel speed

 

[Damage3245]

Guys, I get wanting to have powerscaling and calcs that upgrade characters, but it has to make sense within the series.

It's like if you calced the kinetic energy of somebody's punches and said "They must generate 100 Megatons of heat energy through friction from punching so quickly" so you give them "Heat Manipulation" on their profile... even though temperatures that high are never implied in the series.

Sure, you logic your way into giving them Heat Manipulation, but it would still only be headcanon.

EDIT: That's why even though you can calculate your way to getting Ichiji to be five times faster than the speed of light through reasoning his laser beams and measuring timeframes in the anime, in the context of the verse, the feat may not be sense to scale literally everybody to.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Guys, I get wanting to have powerscaling and calcs that upgrade characters, but it has to make sense within the series.

It's like if you calced the kinetic energy of somebody's punches and said "They must generate 100 Megatons of heat energy through friction from punching so quickly" so you give them "Heat Manipulation" on their profile... even though temperatures that high are never implied in the series.

Sure, you logic your way into giving them Heat Manipulation, but it would still only be headcanon.

eh, I dont understand math or heat thing on physic, I'm not sure of how to answer it, so

 

[KingTempest]

So when his combat speed was everything but SoL since 2015 nobody batted an eye, but now that we wanna raise his combat speed its magically Light Speed. I'm baffled.

Kizaru being lightspeed shouldn't hinder the myriad of feats of other characters especially when it's shown that he hasn't blitzed any high or top tiers.

Ichiji outran lasers and people scale. It's really not that difficult.

Guys, I get wanting to have powerscaling and calcs that upgrade characters, but it has to make sense within the series.

Ichiji outran light. That's a basic FTL feat. There is no possible way to counter outrunning light as a FTL feat.

 

[Damage3245]

So when his combat speed was everything but SoL since 2015 nobody batted an eye, but now that we wanna raise his combat speed its magically Light Speed. I'm baffled.

Who gives a toss what people in 2015 thought?

Kizaru being lightspeed shouldn't hinder the myriad of feats of other characters especially when it's shown that he hasn't blitzed any high or top tiers.

It should if it doesn't make sense within the verse.

How is Kizaru kicking not a combat speed feat?

Ichiji outran light. That's a basic FTL feat. There is no possible way to counter outrunning light as a FTL feat.

It may be an FTL feat; it may be that his attacks aren't actually lightspeed. We currently accept that it is logically the case that they are lightspeed, but it's not like Oda wrote out for us "Ichiji shoots an attack at the speed of light and he himself is faster than the speed of light." This is down to interpretations of what the manga is showing us.

Whether virtually everybody in the verse post-timeskip right down to Fishman Island characters scale to it, is a bigger leap than just "Ichiji outran light".

 

[Ryuga21]

Niji is said to be the fastest in Germa (He is the only known for his high speed) and implies be moving at the speed of light when he uses his sword to attack. If he already were FTL via scaling with his brother, this scene would be meaningless.

Between statements and feats, shouldn't we choose only those are most consistent with the series?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Niji is said to be the fastest in Germa (He is the only known for his high speed) and implies be moving at the speed of light when he uses his sword to attack. If he already were FTL via scaling with his brother, this scene would be meaningless.

Sonic from OPM is MHS+ to Rela+ and his attacks are described as only at the speed of sound

 

[KingTempest]

Niji is said to be the fastest in Germa (He is the only known for his high speed) and implies be moving at the speed of light when he uses his sword to attack. If he already were FTL via scaling with his brother, this scene would be meaningless.

He was never stated to be the fastest in Germa.
Let's remember that this is travel speed, not combat speed, and it says "similar" to the speed of light in his vivre card.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightspeed-niji.108148/

Which can mean faster or slower.

Between statements and feats, shouldn't we choose only those are most consistent with the series?

Your calc put Whitebeard almost FTL+.

But let's focus in on this.

Shouldn't we choose only those are more consistent with the series?

Exactly.

Anti FTL​

Kizaru's in canon Combat Speed.

Pro FTL​

Water 7 Noro Noro Beams.
Thriller Bark Lasers
Thriller Bark Paw Cannons
Sabaody Lasers
Sabaody 2.0
WCI Lasers.
Wano Lasers from Queen.

Which one looks more consistent?

 

[Damage3245]

Water 7 Noro Noro Beams.
Thriller Bark Lasers
Thriller Bark Paw Cannons

These do not add to the consistency in One Piece. They are outright contradicted by Pre-Timeskip Luffy and the other Supernovas being horribly blitzed by Lightspeed Kizaru.

Do you think Oda seriously intended for the Straw Hats to be faster than light due to these feats/fights when he introduced Kizaru into the story?

Wano Lasers from Queen.

What relevance does this have? Nobody scales to Queen's laser.

 

[KingTempest]

These do not add to the consistency in One Piece. They are outright contradicted by Pre-Timeskip Luffy and the other Supernovas being horribly blitzed by Lightspeed Kizaru.

Wouldn't Kizaru be the outlier..?

What relevance does this have? Nobody scales to Queen's laser.

Marco dodged it, King tagged him, Sanji blocked King, everyone who scales to Sanji

 

[Dr.Fix]

I personally do not care if many One Piece characters go lightspeed. Kizaru was never said or shown to be close to the fastest character in the series.

That said, the anime is horrendous. Does anyone have the panel of Ichi attacking oven in the canon? The anime scene doesn't look like he is firing anything. It just looks like the effect you see from anime where the background gets a cool effect.

 

[Antvasima]

We decided that his DF ability makes his travel speed higher than any other travel speed shown in the series, but his natural combat speed is higher than his travel speed and higher than everyone else as well.

Okay then.

 

[Damage3245]

How is Kizaru kicking not a combat speed feat?

Nobody has yet to answer this question.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Nobody has yet to answer this question.

Too many spam posts. Who said it isn't and more importantly, why?

 

[Damage3245]

Too many spam posts. Who said it isn't and more importantly, why?

Kizaru uses his Devil Fruit to enhance to his kicks to lightspeed, AKA increases his combat speed. He does this because in his own words "speed is weight", he is making his kicks more powerful precisely because they're faster.

But now we're being told to accept that actually Kizaru is naturally at least five times faster than the speed of light anyway. Really, his Devil Fruit just handicaps himself and makes him five times slower whenever he attacks...

It's frankly nonsense, and is a very good example of why we should be limiting our headcanon when it comes to these characters.

People try to excuse this inconsistency when it comes to Kizaru by saying "His Devil Fruit is still useful, because it makes his travel speed super-fast! His combat speed is untouched!" But the whole deal with Kizaru's kicks shows how contradictory this is. Evidently his combat speed is not untouched.

 

[Dr.Fix]

But now we're being told to accept that actually Kizaru is naturally at least five times faster than the speed of light anyway

I'm going to zero in on this. Why would Kizaru get 5x?

 

[Ryuga21]

Sonic from OPM is MHS+ to Rela+ and his attacks are described as only at the speed of sound

Unfair, OPM has thousands of feats and statements above subsonic speed. One Piece, on the other hand, has nothing far above the standards that the work implies, which is why it is not so simple to place a feat above an affirmation when it does not contradict itself (For example, there are zero mentions or solid implications of someone being FTL).

He was never stated to be the fastest in Germa.
Let's remember that this is travel speed, not combat speed, and it says "similar" to the speed of light in his vivre card.

It's both travel and combat. He is named "wind blue" due his speed, only he at Germa has this type of highlight. Wouldn't that make him one of the fastests at minimum?

 

[Damage3245]

I'm going to zero in on this. Why would Kizaru get 5x?

Because Ichiji has a 5.74c calc.

And KingTempest's scaling chain puts Ichiji = Katakuri = Luffy = Doflamingo = Aokiji = Marco = Kizaru (roughly).

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I'm going to zero in on this. Why would Kizaru get 5x?

Tempest calc

 

[Dr.Fix]

Because Ichiji has a 5.74c calc.

And KingTempest's scaling chain

Yeah I know the feat is for Ichi. Like I said, why should Kizaru get it? Other than @KingTempest 's opinion what FACTS put him above Ichi?

 

[Ryuga21]

Kizaru = Marco > Katakuri > Raid-Suit Ichiji.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Because Ichiji has a 5.74c calc.

And KingTempest's scaling chain puts Ichiji = Katakuri = Luffy = Doflamingo = Aokiji = Marco = Kizaru (roughly).

@Damage3245 you are the staff member and resident expert on One Piece, it is your job to fact check scaling. If a feat is brought up, cool. If it wasn't, address headcanon.

No offense to @KingTempest

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Kizaru = Marco > Katakuri > Raid-Suit Ichiji.

Why would marco be on-par with Kizaru?

 

[Ryuga21]

Why would marco be on-par with Kizaru?

Kizaru blocked his kick with no effort.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

yeah, I was meaning in the sense why would Marco be on par with kizaru. Why isn't kizaru handily above marco? Marco couldn't even negate akainu's intangibility.