One Piece LS (And LS is not lifting Strength)

[KingTempest]

This is already a controversial topic so I won't waste anyone's time.
This is talking about lightspeed One Piece, issues with Kizaru, some more lightspeed feats that people didn't notice, and etc.
It was too long to put in one OP, and transferring from the wiki to the forum is a pain (there was like 3 spaces in between each line).

KingTempest16/Lightspeed One Piece

vsbattles.fandom.com

Edit: This is the anniversary of Naruto getting Delta's beams as LS, so I mark December 25th the annual HST LS day!

 

[Damage3245]

You've listed a lot under the Vinsmoke section but you haven't actually listed all of the proof for Vinsmoke Ichiji's attacks being lightspeed. Germa being a nation of science is not important for this.

Also, Luffy was not necessarily calling the laser beam itself slow, but the Pacifista's as being too slow for him. Also, yes, Luffy has dodged projectiles with Observation Haki. I have no idea why you're saying he hasn't.

• Off Guard Eustass Kid manages to barely dodge a Pacifista's beam (gets skimmed by it).
• Trafalgar Law mid sentence gets a beam shot at him and somehow he evades.
• X Drake reacts to Kizaru's kick.
• Scratchmen Apoo (this might be a stretch) reacts to Kizaru's kick.
• Mad Monk Urouge reacts to Kizaru's kick.
• Basil Hawkins reacts to Kizaru's point blank lightspeed kick.

That's 6 (maybe 5) people outside of the main cast with lightspeed feats. "Outlier".

Calaca calced these ages ago and they come out to Massively Hypersonic+ at best.

What I'm trying to say is that Kizaru can fluctuate in speed, which is also shown when his light has different velocities (like when he created his light sword and it was at rest). If he's going lightspeed while holding back, he could go faster while serious.

Who is saying Kizaru is holding back in speed?

 

[KingTempest]

You've listed a lot under the Vinsmoke section but you haven't actually listed all of the proof for Vinsmoke Ichiji's attacks being lightspeed. Germa being a nation of science is not important for this.

The Vinsmoke section (the lower part for Judge) was to show that Ichiji's lasers were related to Kizaru's via Vegapunk's influence, which are accepted as lightspeed.
The Nation of Science portion was connected to the Vegapunk portion, showing that their kingdom is based off of scientific achievements done by Judge and Vegapunk.

Also, Luffy was not necessarily calling the laser beam itself slow, but the Pacifista's as being too slow for him.

The Pacifista didn't take a single step and he fired a laser at him, I'm 100% sure he's referring to the laser.

Also, yes, Luffy has dodged projectiles with Observation Haki. I have no idea why you're saying he hasn't.

I never said he hasn't dodged projectiles with Observation Haki, that's common sense that he has.
I said he's never shown explicit aimdodging with Observation Haki.

• Off Guard Eustass Kid manages to barely dodge a Pacifista's beam (gets skimmed by it).
• Trafalgar Law mid sentence gets a beam shot at him and somehow he evades.
• X Drake reacts to Kizaru's kick.
• Scratchmen Apoo (this might be a stretch) reacts to Kizaru's kick.
• Mad Monk Urouge reacts to Kizaru's kick.
• Basil Hawkins reacts to Kizaru's point blank lightspeed kick.

Calaca calced these ages ago and they come out to Massively Hypersonic+ at best.

Those aren't for calcs Damage, those are examples of Low-Tier characters reacting to lightspeed. It's to show consistency.
Cin calced feats that happened arcs prior to these feats and got Sub-Rel.

The point of the thread isn't to get everyone at ftl or rel, it's to get the calcs that were denied because of "inconsistencies" with Kizaru accepted and applied.

Who is saying Kizaru is holding back in speed?

Check the Scaling Wise section.

 

[Damage3245]

The Vinsmoke section (the lower part for Judge) was to show that Ichiji's lasers were related to Kizaru's via Vegapunk's influence, which are accepted as lightspeed.

It looks like a leap in logic to me instead of proof that his attacks are lightspeed.

Judge working with somebody who has worked on lasers in the past is not 100% proof of Ichiji's attacks being lightspeed. What qualifiers from the lightspeed page does his attack fulfill?

The Pacifista didn't take a single step and he fired a laser at him, I'm 100% sure he's referring to the laser.

The Pacifista has to charge up its laser to attack him. He doesn't have to be referring to the Pacifista's physical speed, just that it is too slow to be a threat to him in combat.

I said he's never shown explicit aimdodging with Observation Haki.

Okay. That doesn't mean he wasn't doing that.

Those aren't for calcs Damage, those are examples of Low-Tier characters reacting to lightspeed. It's to show consistency.

It isn't. You're claiming these are lightspeed feats for multiple characters when they actually aren't. All of those characters getting blitzed by lightspeed should actually be proof that these characters are nowhere near lightspeed / FTL.

Check the Scaling Wise section.

So you're the one saying Kizaru was holding back in terms of speed against them?

 

[M3X_2.0]

The Pacifista has to charge up its laser to attack him. He doesn't have to be referring to the Pacifista's physical speed, just that it is too slow to be a threat to him in combat.

You have to be very dishonest to think that this is about anything other than the laser.

 

[Damage3245]

@M3X; either way, it doesn't mean Luffy has to be comparable to the laser.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I never said that, KingTempest never said that.

 

[Damage3245]

I never said that, KingTempest never said that.

Okay.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Damage you’re making a lot of “well it doesn’t have to be this way or maybe it could’ve happened this way” I can go down a rabbit hole of “maybes” forever, but we should make our scaling decisions off of actual evidence as opposed to hypotheticals.

Why not add some level of proof to back those up. Compared to everything Tempest brought to the table your arguments are looking rather meek.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; questioning the arguments and evidence brought to the table does not mean having to provide other scans from the manga. Quite often for a series like this we are all using the same scans but what differs is the interpretation of it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah and you’ve said stuff like “maybe Luffy aim dodged it” without providing any evidence that points to him using the color of observation.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah and you’ve said stuff like “maybe Luffy aim dodged it” without providing any evidence that points to him using the color of observation.

Color of Observation does not have a visual indicator unlike Color of Armament.

But we know Luffy can use it to effortlessly dodge projectiles.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The manga seems to make it pretty obvious whenever Luffy busts out any type of haki.

Plus referencing the OP, even if Luffy saw it coming he still didn’t dodge until post firing of the beam.

The purpose I gleamed from this thread was primarily to point out that we shouldn’t think of Light Speed as the cap to the verse, which I agree with.

 

[KingTempest]

It looks like a leap in logic to me instead of proof that his attacks are lightspeed.

Judge worked with someone who manufactured lightspeed lasers.
Because of that man, his kingdom is what it is today.
His son can use lasers. I fail to see why they would nitpick technology to give to him.

Judge working with somebody who has worked on lasers in the past is not 100% proof of Ichiji's attacks being lightspeed. What qualifiers from the lightspeed page does his attack fulfill?

The Wiki's Lightspeed Laser Page Requirements
Stated to be light.
Realistic source of light, someone who is technologically enhanced via research of Vegapunk, who (read first counter).

• Also showed to use Natural elements and such (via the realistic Niji lightning shown in my sandbox)

Lightspeed via Vegapunk who manufactured LS lasers.
Moves in a straight line.

Qualities of Light IRL
Shows the color theory of light very well, as they are rainbow lasers.
Showcases intensity a lot, as it can blind Oven.
Showcases illumination a lot, as it darkens areas that it passes by.

Okay. That doesn't mean he wasn't doing that.

Nothing says he was.
We see with Observation Haki that you still need to be able to react.
We see with Sandersonia that she could damn near tell exactly what Luffy was going to do with her haki, but she couldn't react when he got a speed boost.
Burden is on you to say he wasn't doing that, since every other time we see that (even with future sight), they dodge after the attack is thrown.

It isn't. You're claiming these are lightspeed feats for multiple characters when they actually aren't. All of those characters getting blitzed by lightspeed should actually be proof that these characters are nowhere near lightspeed / FTL.

Again, another point of the thread

The point of the thread isn't to get everyone at ftl or rel, it's to get the calcs that were denied because of "inconsistencies" with Kizaru accepted and applied.

Like Noro Beam scaling, Kuma scaling, and so on.

The 2 calced feats for the Supernovas got minimum mach 5000 and such, pre TS chars currently scale to Kalifa's mach 1192 calc. That is a significant upgrade.

So you're the one saying Kizaru was holding back in terms of speed against them?

Exactly.
The only ways to strike with a weaker energy output is to get slower.
In case the argument of "he can change his mass" pops up, F = MA and KE = 1/2MV, which means F/M = A or 2*KE/M = V.

Since Kizaru is light and can apply force while moving at lightspeed, since he's shown that he can lighten his mass even further (while riding on a cannonball), it means that he would get faster if he lightens himself any further, which he has shown he can do.

Faster than what he already is = faster than light.

 

[KingTempest]

So what has been discussed is

• Controversial Kizaru
• Lightspeed Ichiji
• Luffy and Pacifista

What hasn't been spoken on is this.

• Enel LS reactions
• Zoro Skypiea LS feat
• Acceptance or decline on Foxy scaling
• Kuma
• The outlier point

 

[Damage3245]

I'm unsure of whether reading the electromagnetic signals truly counts as having lightspeed reactions. Technically speaking ordianary people can recieve information from photons in their eyes; they just don't process it instantly.

The Zoro feats I'll need to go over when I have time.

As for Foxy, I'm sure there has probably been an old CRT regarding whether or not we scale the characters in that arc to his Noro-Noro beams and I'm 90% sure it was rejected for being an outlier.

 

[KingTempest]

The first one is fair. Lightning sends out lightspeed signals when it travels through things, but he says that he uses his lightning powers to read electric signals. It could be a stretch.

The second one, gotcha.

The Foxy one, it's shaky. It was stated to be an outlier, but that was just because of Kizaru (which is being discussed in this thread) and (nonexistent) Skypiea antifeats (even though everybody dodged lightning that arc, even Usopp).

I forgot to state this in the last message

You also know this would give Kuma Lightspeed Combat speed as well for being able to swing his hands back and forth at lightspeed to slap air right?

In regerds to Kuma's paw cannon.
In the case where Kuma's attacks being lightspeed is challenged, Kuma being able to slap the air at lightspeed means that he needs to move his arms back and forth at lightspeed to be able to hit the air. That would give him LS combat speed, which nobody has shown to scale to.

 

[Damage3245]

In the case where Kuma's attacks being lightspeed is challenged, Kuma being able to slap the air at lightspeed means that he needs to move his arms back and forth at lightspeed to be able to hit the air. That would give him LS combat speed, which nobody has shown to scale to.

That's not necessarily true. Kuma uses the power of his Devil Fruit to repel things. He doesn't have to swing his arm at a certain speed to send someone flying at a certain speed if his Devil Fruit is what actually repels people.

 

[KingTempest]

Not the repulsion one, I meant this

 

[Damage3245]

But isn't that the same principle? He's reflecting the air pressure with his pads, AKA his Devil Fruit.

 

[KingTempest]

His pads do naturally reflect the pressure, but his special techniques are different.

He has to swing at a certain speed for the paw cannon to come into existence. He can reflect anything (even ghosts), but for him to do that technique I sent above, he needs to move his arms. That's why he moves his arms back and forth. If he didn't need to, he would just stretch his arms and project the paws.

That's why every time he reflected a strawhat technique, there wasn't a paw shaped air shockwave there.

 

[Damage3245]

I would speculate that the reason why he moves his arms is because once he has repelled air in front of his pads there is technically vacuum for a moment. If he just kept his pads stationary, he'd have to wait for air to be replaced in front of his pad in order to fire off another one.

So by swinging his arms around, he can fire more.

 

[KingTempest]

That's possible, but he could just turn it off and then turn it right back on.

With the statement about lightspeed as well, I'm sure it's referring to the speed that he hits the air. If that was talking about the paws, Zoro would've instantly been blown back just on contact instead of being given that time period to notice what was going on.

 

[CinCameron20]

This is a lot to touch up on. I skimmed mostly through the thread, but I'm not entirely sure what is being argued here (unless it's just "characters can be FTL in the verse", which I agree with, but not with current feats). But I don't see why any character currently should be above SoL given that the fastest characters we've seen ONLY claim to be capable of reaching SoL attack speed.

@KingTempest -

Kizaru stuff:

1) When he claims the "SoL kick", that doesn't translate to combat speed--only attack speed. Therefore his light-transformed attacks and beams are "SoL Attack Speed". Combat Speed generally refers to a speed at which a character can act and react to in the middle of combat. For current calcs and scaling, there's nothing to really scale Kizaru to light speed and he can only scale to characters he has been shown matching in speed during combat (i.e Marco and Rayleigh).

• "Speed of Light movement via light-dispersion (Capable of moving his own body at the speed of light) and attack speed (Can fire light beams and attacks at this speed)" These do not apply to Combat Speed as it has yet to be proven that Kizaru can combat at LS and react accordingly. He always telegraphs before he applies the LS movement.

2) All cases of Kizaru vanishing and reappearing have shown him turning into light either partially or fully before blitzing the Supernova, including the case with Drake. He turned into light before appearing in front of him and landing one of his kicks.

SBS Stuff:

I'm just going to say taking Oda's word in this Q/A's is not logical given the fact that he tends to troll, or he's direct in answering the question but doesn't give more than some context. The "50 meter race" indicating that Brook would be > Sanji and Luffy in speed is ridiculous, and he's also using intelligence as a factor as someone like Zoro would be "placed higher if he wasn't directionally challenged".

Luffy dodging laser:

The case you bring up does not show the beam being fired and Luffy on the same panel. Luffy could have easily moved his head just before the beam shot--or while the beam was about to be projected. This case will never be accepted even if it's proven that Luffy is FTL later on because it's simply full of presumptions and can not be proven that Luffy dodged only after the beam was shot.

Enel:

Electrical signals move at light speed(?), but he's just picking up information. His actions after receiving do not in any way match "speed of light".

Zoro vs Light Gun:

The gun flashes a bright light when shot. It does not shoot out actual light to attack the enemy. It's a typical tactic used in gun-fights where someone inputs their flashlight to flash on while pulling the trigger to blind enemies and prevent them to see the direction the gun is aiming from. Zoro's issue when fighting this opponent was that he could not see where his attacker was while the gun was being fired, thus incapable of counter-attack.

I wont touch the Foxy stuff since I already tried getting speed feats accepted for it... but keep in mind they were only Sub-Rel, like ridiculously low, and the calcs were a bit unreliable.

Kuma stuff is also questionable since it's likely the air itself is not travelling at LS when coming off the paws.

• Also when Zoro evaded the barrage, he saw an opening in between them and leaped into it. Not the nonsense the anime tries to depict where he's--for some reason--dancing between each paw. (This has nothing to do with the evasion feat itself, but i'm massively annoyed with the "anime is secondary canon so we should use it")

We already have LS Henry Blazer for Niji. Not for his Combat Speed, though.

Ichiji's powers from the quote you bring up refers to his powers to be akin to "fire" and not "light", also Niji is referred to being the one with "speed as his strength" while nothing of this is stated of Ichiji. Ichiji's attacks are never stated to be light-speed and the best he's done is generate flashes from his ability. I'd honestly prefer a full description of his powers before suggesting he attacks at LS.

• Also I do no recommend taking quotes from a Wiki to justify LS Ichiji.

I don't get why we're bringing up lightning points when Niji and Ichiji's speeds are both far above average speed of true lightning.

Judge stuff you bring up about him "working with Vegapunk" is full of assumptions and holes (especially given that we know next to nothing about Vegapunk and what he would share with his colleagues and co-workers). The fastest Germa member to our knowledge is Niji, who is LS with his blade and there isn't justification for the other members.

Now let's go over the points you say are "in favor":

1. Flash Gun - The gun generates a flash from pulling the trigger and is not an actual projectile. The light can remain lit long enough for Zoro to feel the need to shield his eyes since he can not see his attacker.
2. Enel's Reaction Speed - No. He is not reacting at this speed. His ability allows him to bring information at this speed. He is not stated to process received information at this speed. It's like he is listening to a radio with 0 delay.
3.Noro Noro Photons - I would agree these are Light Speed, however they don't result in impressive speed feats outside of a single tier jump for characters in this region, and we need to make proper calculations for this since the ones made (by me especially) were heavily inaccurate.
4. Kuma slap - Lasers are already accepted at LS. The air pads are a little iffy and i'm mixed on that matter.
5/6. Pacifista Lasers - Yes, they are light-speed, but none of the characters have been shown capable of reacting to them at equal speed

• Post TS Luffy aim-dodged as far as we can know (and he's a known O Haki user, so this can be further supported by that simple fact). Kid barely reacted to the beam but was still too slow to fully avoid it. Law has teleporation powers and we don't see how he avoided it. The Straw-Hats can only be argued to aim-dodge (EXCEPT that one case where Pre TS Luffy evaded while it was already mid-air, but we can't calc that because the explosion is already happening while Luffy is mid-air... meaning the impact already happened off-panel).

8. LS Niji and Ichiji - Only Niji outright has a statement that could give him SoL Attack. Ichiji is not supported. Wiki quotes are not justifiable--especially since they did not post any reliable source for said quote.

Conclusion:

There's already other characters we accept as having LS Attack or Movement speed other than Kizaru. Many of these other cases have been brought up before, but are not supported.

The "Luffy calling the laser slow" case can not be used because of numerous already-explained reasons that have been talked to death: a) aimdodge since we never see the beam being fired and Luffy on the same panel. So he could have already moved his head by the time the beam was being fired b) "too slow" could be referring to the Pacifista itself since we see Luffy speed-blitz it physically moments later.

HOWEVER, there are a few cases like where Zoro avoids Kuma's beam while it's already on panel, so we'd simply have to calc the minimum distance Zoro had to move his head/shoulders to avoid being hit by the beam, which is probably Sub-Rel or Sub-Rel+ iirc, which can NOT be argued as an outlier.

• There is, unfortunately, a major issue with the Zoro dodge feat though. We see the beam passing behind his head after he turned, but it traveled a fair distance more. We can't reliably get the length of the beam with the perspective from both panels we see the beam, so even if we tried to low-ball it by saying "Zoro moved 15cm at minimum" we don't know the distance the beam traveled because we can not exactly pin-point its location (but we could scale the thickness of the beam via Zoro's head, though this isn't 100% reliable since head-sizes in One Piece are never consistent).

 

[Antvasima]

CinCameron20 seems to make sense to me.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest -

@CinCameron20 I appreciate that you came to this thread. Your argument makes sense. You missed a few things discussed in this thread though.

The thread is basically saying 2 things. 1) The verse capping at LS is unfair by saying "Kizaru's LS, so this can't be true" and 2) any valid feats corresponding to LS should not be dropped because of nonexistent outliers.

Kizaru stuff:

1) Your point on how it would be attack speed makes sense, but combat speed would work perfectly fine in this context as well.
Kizaru can kick with a regular leg with the point of impact turned into light. That sounds confusing.
Kizaru's leg is normal, but his foot is light. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, Exhibit D.
Basically, he can move his limbs at SoL. He's shown (presumably) light attributes too, when he's riding on a cannonball as well.

Idk about giving his kicks Attack Speed when he can kick at that speed regularly, especially when we haven't seen any other kicks like that.

2) Would that not give him similar reaction speeds? He turns into a flash of light, moves wherever he wants, then transforms back.

SBS Stuff:

I was using that to emphasize travel speed. But tbh, Brook does have the fastest travel speed in all of the strawhats.
Blitzed this one guy who should be comparable to the other characters who got one shot, who reacted to the strawhats.
Caught a hungry Big Mom off guard.
Can run across water, a known travel speed feat.
I'd give him the fastest Travel speed tbh.

Luffy dodging laser: If you check above, that's been argued about a little, but it is full of presumptions. I used that as a supporting feat.

Enel: That's fair.

Zoro vs Light Gun:

The gun flashes a bright light when shot, yes. I meant to emphasize on the fact that he seemingly dodged the bright flash of light. I know it's not a projectile dodging feat or a calcable feat, so I just used it as a supporting feat.
The other instances where he got hit was when he was squinting after the light hit him. After he dodged this flash of light, his eyes weren't squinting, which shows that he did dodge the flash of light.

Foxy stuff: That's fine, it was just to show consistency though.

Kuma stuff: I took a different approach.
I said that Kuma would be the one to slap the air at lightspeed, which would give him LS combat. You can read me and Damage's argument (not really an argument) above (right above your message) for clarification.

The quote about Ichiji talks about how Oda originally wanted Ichiji to use fire in his attacks instead of light ones, which is why in the Vol. 3 Magazine, his name was going to be Fire Red, but instead, it's Sparking Red now.
I meant to use the wiki points just to show that other people noticed his lasers to be similar in view to the lasers used by Kizaru.

I brought up lightning points to show that Germa used natural elements, via my quote

Another Germa member is also shown to use natural attacks.

The Judge statement I used was a weak application of Occam's Razor.
I'll copy something I stated above.

The Vinsmoke section (the lower part for Judge) was to show that Ichiji's lasers were related to Kizaru's via Vegapunk's influence, which are accepted as lightspeed.
The Nation of Science portion was connected to the Vegapunk portion, showing that their kingdom is based off of scientific achievements done by Judge and Vegapunk.

Judge worked with someone who manufactured lightspeed lasers.
Because of that man's tech, his kingdom is what it is today.
His son can use lasers. I fail to see why they would nitpick technology to give to him.

And my quote in the Sandbox.

Someone could say "but the Pacifista were made recently. Why would Judge know about that?"
Vegapunk had his information about laser technology on his home island Karakuri Island. We know laser tech was there since Franky was able to mimic it from his island. Vegapunk had those notes there as a youth, which means the laser tech that Franky rediscovered was extremely old (which is no surprise, as it's stated that Vegapunk's knowledge was 500 years above his time).

Vegapunk wasn't able to do what he wanted because he was poor and didn't have the resources. He ended up working w/ a research team for the sole purpose of developing weapons. Vegapunk & Judge's research is the reason why Germa was turned into the Kingdom of Science, and Ichiji shouldn't be an exception.

There's no reason why Judge wouldn't find out about lightspeed lasers from him.

Basically, Ichiji has lasers via someone who worked w/ someone who manufactured lightspeed lasers based off of a man made out of light.

My "in favor" points.

1. Flash Gun - I agree, but the one feat where he dodged should be taken as a valid supporting feat.
2. Enel's Reaction Speed - I agree with you here.
3. Noro Noro Photons - A tier jump in speed would still be good. Most of Pre TS out of the high tiers and Marineford G4 Luffy scale to Kalifa, who's mach 1192. Sub rel calcs and feats would be extremely appreciated and benefitial.
4. Kuma slap - I used the Air Pad statement to say "Kuma slaps the air at lightspeed" instead of the classic "the air moves at lightspeed", which would give Kuma LS combat. From shown feats, nobody scales to it, and Zoro blitzing Kuma pre ts is just PIS and an outlier, since Kuma blitzed a healthier Zoro.

• Post TS Luffy is fair. Kid was off guard and still barely dodged it. Law could just be a reaction case and a supporting feat. The Straw-Hats getting aim dodging isn't supported either.
• Zoro dodged it after it moved during Thriller Bark
• Luffy and Ivankov dodged it after it moved a bunch of times, and Ivankov had that one calc (which I can not find) about sending Luffy faster than the laser can hit him, which brought ftl results.

With the Ivankov one, the feat is on this page and before, and he had a feat where he rolled away from another laser on the next page.
8. LS Niji and Ichiji -

The Wiki's Lightspeed Laser Page Requirements
Stated to be light.
Realistic source of light, someone who is technologically enhanced via research of Vegapunk, who (read first counter).

• Also showed to use Natural elements and such (via the realistic Niji lightning shown in my sandbox)

Lightspeed via Vegapunk tech who manufactured LS lasers.
Moves in a straight line.

Qualities of Light IRL
Shows the color theory of light very well, as they are rainbow lasers.
Showcases intensity a lot, as it can blind Oven.
Showcases illumination a lot, as it darkens areas that it passes by.

We can add on that their bodies are shown to be technologically modified, showed by Vinsmoke Yonji's Winch Green's body enhancements.

Basically, 2 qualities of light (3 if we take Vegapunk's involvement w/ Germa tech) via the wiki, and 3 outside the wiki.
Wiki - Light statement (via databook), realistic source (high tech modified human), lightspeed (via Vegapunk tech involvement).
IRL - Color Theory, Intensity, Illumination

Also Cin and anyone else who reads this, how is this?

Damage asked if I was saying that Kizaru was holding back in terms of speed.

Exactly.
The only ways to strike with a weaker energy output is to get slower.
In case the argument of "he can change his mass" pops up, F = MA and KE = 1/2MV, which means F/M = A or 2*KE/M = V.

Since Kizaru is light and can apply force while moving at lightspeed, since he's shown that he can lighten his mass even further (while riding on a cannonball), it means that he would get faster if he lightens himself any further, which he has shown he can do.

Faster than what he already is = faster than light.

Conclusion:
There are a few people who do have that (Kizaru, Pacifista, Franky, Foxy, possibly Niji, I might be missing some).
However, there are some LS feats that can be taken into consideration, and Ichiji can possibly have LS attack speed, and (possibly) ftl combat for outrunning his lasers.

Luffy saying the pacifista (or the beam, I'm pointing towards the beam via the discussion in the beginning) being slow can just be used as a support feat.

Zoro dodging can be used as a support feat as well. If it can be calced, that would be good, the mechanics on the feats do show an issue (so I agree with you there).

 

[CinCameron20]

@KingTempest - I'll just touch on the things we don't agree with:

Kizaru:

Keep in mind Kizaru is not "always" in a light form. Just like every logia, he's shown in a normal state until an instance where he receives an attack, then that part of his body automatically transforms into light.

I'm pretty certain when we see the sole of Kizaru's foot turned into light, it's an indicator of his leg moving at light-speed yes, and of course he's moving his limbs at light-speed (at least when doing that). But we do not have reason to justify him reacting to said attacks when he has never changed the direction of his kicks and usually strikes characters who are far too slow to react (i.e. The Supernova pre ts). We have not seen any character fight against Kizaru while he is displaying a feat like his LS kicks (if we did, we'd have already calculated them anywhere from Rel+ to barely FTL results... sadly there's none), which is unfortunate because we can not justify Light Speed for Kizaru's combative speed.

Kizaru typically telegraphs his actions before moving in Light-Speed. When he did so against Drake, he was already turned into a large flash of light before suddenly appearing in front of him. He does not use his light-speed functions in combat all of the time, otherwise he'd have no need to be using abilities like Yata no Kagami to position himself next to Apoo before striking him.

• Basically, what I'm saying is: Kizaru turns to light after selecting a place he wants to go to, then he moves there in light-form before transforming back to prepare an attack.

And yeah, there is that argument of "why would he be using the ability if he is already equal to light-speed argument".

Luffy Pacifista beam: Sadly this can't even be a supporting feat given the "no on-panel evasion" argument. Sorry, but that's how it is (meanwhile you have the anime showing Luffy be 10x ftl in base lmao)

Kuma: I personally think Kuma can have Light Speed movement (via "teleportation" and how fast he moves his arms at the moment of repelling objects/himself/air), but it'd only be Attack Speed since, like Kizaru, we don't have evidence of other characters reacting to those attacks (and it's not entirely consistent since we can only assume the moment he starts repelling is the moment he's light-speed). It's the lack of feats that prevents Kuma from having evidence of reaction speed since he's only shown reacting to the movements of the far-slower characters.

Also Zoro getting Kuma isn't so much an outlier, and more-so a surprise attack that Kuma didn't notice until he was already struck

(Also this is kind of an anti-feat for Kizaru and Rayleigh's reaction speed since Kuma used his light-speed repulsion to move in between them before either could properly react)

Ichiji: Oh, I misread the quote then.

However, I don't see where (in chapter 898) Ichiji is moving faster than his attack. It's mostly due to the fact we only see the attack projected in one panel (where the attack already happened/is happening) and the angle in which we are given a perspective is awful. It seems Ichiji aimed upwards if he remained on the ground. This means that we can't justify Ichiji moving faster if he's moving further horizontally while the light particles are moving diagonally since he had to aim upwards (unless he left the ground, which there's no evidence) thus there's no distance we can calculate for Ichiji and his light particles since they're all going different directions.

We could give him "Speed of Light" Attack speed though if his ability does indeed function as light (which you seem to prove). It's just that we don't get proper evidence of Ichiji "moving faster than the beams", so we can't give him FTL travel. I also don't think we can give him SoL movement with that one case being presented in such a fashion.

Zoro and the Flash-Gun:

The case where Zoro rolls back mid-air to avoid the shot was aim-dodging given that he saw where the gun was before it went off and could have easily had his head rolled back before the light even came on.

Also we can only possibly scale Zoro if we see panels of the light being projected and Zoro reacting during that. There are only cases of the light already being on, and Zoro having performed an action either before or during. It can't be used as a supporting case, and we're very particular in cases like this where there's 0 panels of us seeing light beams and x character moving at the same time (there was another manga where this was a big issue, but i forgot which. I think it was in the Magical Index verse. This is a very similar case.)

I'm willing to accept Ichiji as having LS attack speed with his Sparking abilities, but not his movement speed (being LS or FTL) since the presentation is very poor and the light is moving a different direction than where Ichiji is going (straight line vs diagonal line, and we only get one perspective that is an upward view from the ground)

Kuma having "Light Speed" attack speed with his arm movement is something i'm mixed about, but willing to accept at the moment since he makes a comment of "repelling air at the speed of light", but I wish he said more than that since, like Damage mentioned, it could be a result of a vacuum effect after Kuma's arm stops that causes the repulsion at such speeds.

 

[CinCameron20]

Here's my suggestions for the speed descriptions on each of the characters:

Ichiji: "At least Massively Hypersonic+, possibly Relativistic+ Combat Speed (At least comparable to Niji, who could move fast enough to surprise Sanji), higher with Raid Suit (Speed boosters granted by the footwear increase the user's speed further). Likely Speed of Light Attack Speed with Sparking Valkyrie (Functions similarly to light beams and should thus be capable of moving at such speeds. Given that Ichiji's younger brother Niji is stated to move at light-speed with his Henry Blazer attack, it's reasonable to suggest he too can use attacks with such speed)"

Niji (specifically cuz his is wonky asf): At least Massively Hypersonic+, possibly Relativistic+ Combat Speed (Should be comparable if not superior to Vinsmoke Yonji. Could move fast enough to surprise Sanji), higher with Raid Suit (Speed boosters granted by the footwear increase the user's speed further. Referred to Sanji as being slow), possibly Speed of Light with Henry Blazer (Said to have a speed similar to light)

Same change to Yonji since he is comparable in speed, and he needs the Raid-Suit mention in his profile.

Kuma: "At least Massively Hypersonic+, Possibly far higher Combat Speed (Vastly faster than Pre Time-skip Gear 2nd Luffy. He was capable of finding an opening within Rayleigh and Kizaru's duel before he got between them), possibly Speed of Light Travel Speed via Repulsion (Got in between Silvers Rayleigh and Kizaru while they were in a heated duel and claimed to his opponents to be capable of repelling air at the Speed of Light, though it is questionable if he is implying that he can move his arms at such speeds), Likely Speed of Light Attack Speed with Laser Beams (can generate beams of light that function identically to Kizaru's version)"

 

[KingTempest]

@CinCameron20 I agree with most of your points btw.

Kizaru:
You didn't say a single thing I disagree with.
The only thing is the "why would he be using the ability if he is already equal to light-speed argument", but there's a fruit that can put people at lightning speed even though half of the verse is faster than Enel.

Luffy Pacifista beam:
I agree with you here. If only the One Piece anime wasn't so inconsistent, we would be good. Manga gives rel feats while anime gives FTL to FTL+ feats.

Kuma:
I agree on this.
Your explanation for the Zoro outlier counter makes sense, I agree.
I don't think this is an antifeat for Kizaru and Rayleigh, as they were focused on each other. Being surprised that someone teleports to you out of nowhere in the middle of a fight against a light man is something to be surprised about.

Ichiji:
Oda can draw exquisite buildings but can't draw a valid outrunning light panel. I agree with you, this angle is garbage.
I circled all the lasers that appear to be behind Oven (if not Ichiji). We see that they all come from his hands, and are parallel to his fingers, which means that they would be moving straight with Ichiji.
The colored picture in the manga w/out the edits is here, and the black and white is here just in case that helps (the black and white one shows the ones behind him extremely clear).

Also, in the scan under this one, we see some behind Ichiji's face and on the same level as Oven's face (which Ichiji blatantly outran), showing that the lasers are indeed slower than Ichiji.

Oven is facing the other way. If lasers are in front of Oven's face, and Ichiji is behind Oven, there's no way you can say it's not ftl.

Also, via the trail of Ichiji's eye lightning, there's a chance that Ichiji had to go around Oven's big ass body, which would give higher Ftl feats as the lasers only had to go straight.

I doubt this could be calced because of the horrible point of view, but it's a plain FTL feat.

Zoro and the Flash-Gun:
I need to start sending the direct links.
Braham was twirling his guns at his sides before he fired. I wouldn't count that as aimdodging. And in the case of "Zoro could've dodged while he was twirling his guns", Braham could've just aimed downwards more (since he's standing on the Milky Dial cloud).

But since it's not valid since we don't see it on panel, I guess it's just a potential support feat.

I agree with you on the last Kuma point too.

 

[KingTempest]

Here's my suggestions for the speed descriptions on each of the characters:

Ichiji: "At least Massively Hypersonic+, possibly Relativistic+ Combat Speed (At least comparable to Niji, who could move fast enough to surprise Sanji), higher with Raid Suit (Speed boosters granted by the footwear increase the user's speed further). Likely Speed of Light Attack Speed with Sparking Valkyrie (Functions similarly to light beams and should thus be capable of moving at such speeds. Given that Ichiji's younger brother Niji is stated to move at light-speed with his Henry Blazer attack, it's reasonable to suggest he too can use attacks with such speed)"

Niji (specifically cuz his is wonky asf): At least Massively Hypersonic+, possibly Relativistic+ Combat Speed (Should be comparable if not superior to Vinsmoke Yonji. Could move fast enough to surprise Sanji), higher with Raid Suit (Speed boosters granted by the footwear increase the user's speed further. Referred to Sanji as being slow), possibly Speed of Light with Henry Blazer (Said to have a speed similar to light)

Same change to Yonji since he is comparable in speed, and he needs the Raid-Suit mention in his profile.

Kuma: "At least Massively Hypersonic+, Possibly far higher Combat Speed (Vastly faster than Pre Time-skip Gear 2nd Luffy. He was capable of finding an opening within Rayleigh and Kizaru's duel before he got between them), possibly Speed of Light Travel Speed via Repulsion (Got in between Silvers Rayleigh and Kizaru while they were in a heated duel and claimed to his opponents to be capable of repelling air at the Speed of Light, though it is questionable if he is implying that he can move his arms at such speeds), Likely Speed of Light Attack Speed with Laser Beams (can generate beams of light that function identically to Kizaru's version)"

This is good.

I'll wait before I discuss any FTL scaling btw.

Edit: We can link this thread under Ichiji's speed justification.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like the two of you have reached some agreements/conclusions then.

 

[KingTempest]

Pretty much Ant.

He explained most of the feats and why they wouldn't work, which I agree with. It's a shame that those feats won't work, but his explanations are good.

The only things now that would need to be discussed a little more is the Ichiji lasers and Kuma. Me and Cin agree on them for the most part, but it might just take a little more waiting to get other viewpoints on these feats and explanations to see if they're valid.

 

[CinCameron20]

@KingTempest -

1) For Kizaru and Enel, they both suffer from the same issue as having no evidence of actually moving faster than their Devil Fruit capabilities. But for Enel, characters have reacted to and defended against lightning multiple times in the verse, but Kizaru's either blitzed characters, or they notice him but can't react fast enough to act (or in the very rare case, narrowly escape a beam from either him or a Pacifista). The only characters who even compare to his LS directly are Rayleigh and Marco--though each have only moved a fraction of that speed. (And everyone basically blitzes lightning or uses it at this point)

2) I would personally drop the Ichiji topic solely because we don't fully understand how his Valkyrie attack is deployed since we only see it in action after he's moved from his original position. He probably only moves that fast when using that technique (and similar ones PRESUMABLY).

• We can ASSUME it comes from his hands and ONLY his hands, but that's not confirmed (unless there's a statement somewhere that I've never seen).

I'd probably just change it to "Speed of Light Movement and Attack Speed when using Sparking Valkyrie", but that's it, really.

Also keep in mind that a lot of the light beams are way ahead of other ones. It wouldn't make sense for them all to have varying speeds unless Ichiji shot them off simultaneously. There's probably more to this than we know.

3) By "Aim-dodging" I'm referring to what the wiki refers to as "acting before the opponent can begin their attack". In the case where Zoro leans back to avoid getting shot and blinded, here's what can be argued (and is guaranteed to be accepted over Zoro blatantly dodging a flash of light):

• Braham gets close to Zoro, twirling his guns. Zoro sees this. (Off-panel) Braham aims his gun at Zoro's face, but Zoro simultaneously moves his head back. Braham shoots, and Zoro is already out of the line of fire. The assumption that Zoro dodged after Braham pulled the trigger can not be used because that's a big assumption and technically a massive "high-ball" for any speed feat in general when we don't have evidence.

We can probably apply the changes, but I don't think anyone scales from Ichiji/Niji's SoL attacks since they've been blitzed.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if you apply Cameron's suggestions.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Cin. I don't think there's enough clear evidence for Ichiji to be rated FTL yet.

 

[KingTempest]

@CinCameron20-

1) That's a fair point. I only wish they got blitzed by someone relevant so we could say ftl, but that's just me.

2) That's a shame we see this attack once -_-.

I'm pretty sure he just shoots a bunch, similar to Yasakani no Magatama.
It's similar because

1. It has a wide range.
2. Some of the beams are way ahead of other ones, like you said with Sparking Valkyrie.
3. They come from his hands. We know it comes from his hands because the technique is called Spark Light Fistsand we see his hands lit up..
   1. That might be name fallacy, but seeing that Germa's attacks are true to their character (Lightspeed Blade: Henry Blazer actually moves at lightspeed, Winch Guillotine grabs them by their neck where Guillotine's cut, Pink Hornet actually shoots out pink poison), I'm pretty sure that without extra proof, this is what we can work with.

I'd say it's just because he fires a bunch after one another, just like Kizaru.

Ichiji has 2 techniques and 1 collaboration technique with his brothers.
Sparking Valkyrie, or Spark Light Fists. Sparking Figure, or Spark Figure. Black Bug, or Compound Color Bug (with his brothers).
I'm assuming they all have the same energy source, since each Germa member follows a theme and fits under it.
Reiju is poison (all she uses is poison). Niji is electricity (all he uses is electricity). Yonji is his winch. Ichiji is light.

He used Sparking Figure once on Katakuri, who split apart (idk if Ichiji landed a hit and split him apart because of his lack of haki, or Katakuri used his future sight and split. I'm pointing towards the second one), then bodied him after. So in the case that Ichiji's attack doesn't boost speed, at least Katakuri would scale.

I'm honestly not a fan of giving Ichiji a boost with a certain technique. Niji was shown to be the speed based Germa, and even the Vivre card says that Oda originally wanted him to have Incredible Speed, so giving another Germa member a speed boost, when we already see that's one's specialty (with Henry Blazer. I honestly think Henry Blazer is a combination of his lightning and his regular speed, but that would take a lot to prove it, and it's a huge assumption) is ehh.

3) Yeah it would be dumb for me to argue on a point that has this many levels of vagueness. I concede on this point. The whole feat is off panel, and tbh, even though we don't consider it (I just checked), the anime agrees. So that can be scrapped.

 

[CinCameron20]

@KingTempest - We wont be able to fully agree on Ichiji's stats simply because of poor presentation, but we can at least apply the changes of at least having Speed of Light Attack Speed with that specific attack (Idk if I can ever agree on the other attacks though since he unleashes light AFTER connecting a punch. And Katakuri tends to stand there and prove that he can't be touched).

@Antvasima @Damage3245 - I will apply the aforementioned changes and we can close this thread. (I will also additionally add clarity to Kizaru's "Speed of Light" Attack Speed since it's a little confusing on first glance)

 

[KingTempest]

That's fine then.

We can link this thread with Ichiji's LS justification for his attack

 

[CinCameron20]

All accepted edits have been applied. We can close this thread.

I want to make a thread on Doflamingo and Kaido's respective feats since they are important, but I'll have to take some time to plan it out.

 

[KingTempest]

I have an abilities thread I wanted to make real quick, it's nothing too bad