Potter-Verse: possibly a big upgrade

[Dargoo_Faust]

Having the top tiers of the verse not being able to simply touch the god tiers (I prefer calling Dumbledore, Voldemort, Grindelwal and Credence god tiers rather than top) simply makes no sense at all when regarding the events of the Potterverse and just because the tier comes from scalling

"Simply touch" isn't scaling said characters to even the lower end feats of Voldemort and Dumbledore. Sure, they're extremely skilled wizards, or whatever adjective you'd like to put behind it, that says nothing of their ability to match anything Voldemort or Dumbledore has produced.

And even then, you amazingly proceed to scale these feats all the way to people like Ron, Hermione, and Harry, who should have no business in the league of what you call the "three greatest wizards of the time", sans possibly the crew as adults.

I strongly doubt Bellatrix's shockwave nor the deatheaters breaking a support on a bridge would approach Tier 8, especially since the latter was done with three wizards, but you can calc them if you'd like. If they actually end up getting into 8-C+, I would suggest using the higher end of 8-B for Volde and Dumbledore considering how much higher they are in magical capacity.

I'd actually like scans of the lightning feats, by the way.

 

[The_Archdemon]

"Simply touch" isn't scaling said characters to even the lower end feats of Voldemort and Dumbledore. Sure, they're extremely skilled wizards, or whatever adjective you'd like to put behind it, that says nothing of their ability to match anything Voldemort or Dumbledore has produced.

Now you're simply ignoring things.

The combined efforts of Minerva, Shacklebolt and Slughorn did match Voldemort in power, whether you like it or not.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The combined efforts of Minerva, Shacklebolt and Slughorn did match Voldemort in power, whether you like it or not.

Three weaker characters barely managing to hold off one stronger character for a period of time doesn't equate to scaling between them.

And as I've pointed out, you insist on carrying this scaling to people like Ro, who are somehow capable of matching one third of Voldemort's power under your logic.

I'd like proper supporting feats, so calcing the shockwave and the bridge would be essential to continuing this discussion.

 

[The_Archdemon]

What are you talking about, now? The book clearly states they were evenly matched in the fight.

You're now just throwing arguments from incredulity at me.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You're now just throwing arguments from incredulity at me.

I've never stated any of these arguments come from my own beliefs. It's pretty clear throughout the novels that Ron isn't on or near the level of Voldemort, yet the scaling would put him there looking at your post. Therefore, there's clearly something wrong with the scaling.

"The book clearly states they were evenly matched in the fight."

I don't believe you've posted the quote so far, Could you pull it up, if we're going to argue on the exact wording?

 

[The_Archdemon]

And as I've pointed out, you insist on carrying this scaling to people like Ro, who are somehow capable of matching one third of Voldemort's power under your logic.

Ron is comparable to Hermione, who can match one third of Bellatrix's power (Hermione, Luna and Ginny did fight her in the book).

I don't see we're the scalling gets wrong here, to be honest. Via this scalling, Voldemort still defeats Ron and the likes with no effort at all.

Damn it, he even defeats McGonagall with no effort, which directly scales to him.

The scalling seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ron is comparable to Hermione, who can match one third of Bellatrix's power (Hermione, Luna and Ginny did fight her in the book).

I don't see we're the scalling gets wrong here, to be honest.

I'd also like the quote on that.

The scaling gets it wrong from the start, where it scales Voldemort's power into places it shouldn't be.

 

[The_Archdemon]

The scaling gets it wrong from the start, where it scales Voldemort's power into places it shouldn't be.

How's that so? Come on, guy I suppose you have better arguments than "they shouldn't, they couldn't, they wouldn't" and such. You're giving absolutely no reasoning for all this disagreeing of yours.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

How's that so? Come on, guy I suppose you have better arguments than "they shouldn't, they couldn't, they wouldn't" and such. You're giving absolutely no reasoning for all this disagreeing of yours.

And yet I'm still waiting for the evidence to back up your claims. I'm saying "shouldn't, couldn't, wouldn't", because I'm arguing against claims that don't even have the evidence posted to back them up. I can't disprove arguments with my own proof when said arguments have no proof to begin with.

This entire debate is conjecture until you start putting up scans to back up what you're saying. So far all I've gotten was two clips of possible supporting feats yet to be calced.

 

[The_Archdemon]

lol, do you actually think I'm blatantly lying about the line in the book? Wow, nice argument this one.

I'll go and get you some quotes, then, since you cannot remember such iconic events happening.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't think you're lying. I'm just asking for the evidence of the feats you're describing, which I feel like isn't something ridiculous considering we're talking about the wording on these events.

The sarcasm and attitude don't really do anything for your argument either, which I'll ask you to stop.

 

[The_Archdemon]

You were the one who wounded me from the start, but alright Mr. Faust, no more sarcarm to you.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If you could point out where I insulted you, I'd like to apologize for it if that came off that way.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Bellatrix was still fighting too, fifty yards away from Voldemort, and like her master she dueled three at once: Hermione, Ginny, and Luna, all battling their hardest, but Bellatrix was equal to them, and Harry's attention was diverted as a Killing Curse shot so close to Ginny that she missed death by an inch...

Here, Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood and Ginny Weasley combine their power to fight Bellatrix Lestrange.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Alright, that at least looks straightforward to me.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Voldemort was now dueling McGonagall, Slughorn, and Kingsley all at once, and there was cold hatred in his face as they wove and ducked around him, unable to finish him...

Here Voldemort finds himself unable to defeat the trio, just like they are unable to finish him. Clear from both the hatred in his face and the description of the fight.

Harry felt as though he turned in slow motion; he saw McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn blasted backward, flailing and writhing through the air, as Voldemort's fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb...

And here is where Voldemort finally "beats" the trio, which, by the context, do not downgrade their feat in the duel in any way.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Voldemort was now dueling McGonagall, Slughorn, and Kingsley all at once, and there was cold hatred in his face as they wove and ducked around him, unable to finish him...

Here Voldemort finds himself unable to defeat the trio, just like they are unable to finish him. Clear from both the hatred in his face and the description of the fight.

Harry felt as though he turned in slow motion; he saw McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn blasted backward, flailing and writhing through the air, as Voldemort's fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb...

And here is where Voldemort finally "beats" the trio, which, by the context, do not downgrade their feat in the duel in any way.

Alright, thanks for posting the quotes.

It looks from the quote that they aren't really blocking or meaningfully damaging Voldemort; it claims they "wove and ducked around him" and were "unable to finish him". He even defeats all three of them simultaneously when one of his spells actually does land.

I don't see ow this is evidence for them matching him, it's more like they're carefully avoiding actually trading spells while unable to do much to harm him even then.

 

[The_Archdemon]

I don't see ow this is evidence for them matching him, it's more like they're carefully avoiding actually trading spells while unable to do much to harm him even then.

It is obviously not what happened. Every time Rowling refers to this match, she uses the word "duel"; "dueling", "fight"; "fighting", and one assumes if they're fighting, they would have blocked his spells. They couldn't keep simply dodging, they were fairly old (and age is a thing in HP) and Voldemort's reflexes were most likely superior to theirs.

Not blocking spells and relying on sheer dodging was not an option.

He even defeats all three of them simultaneously when one of his spells actually does land.

That was, as the quote says, an explosion of power, coming from his fury, much likely tapping into the Elder Wand and very similar to what happened with Hogwart's barrier. And, since we do not scale his 8-B tier with the Elder Wand to anyone else but Dumbledore and Grindelwald (and Credence but ehh), it is still consistent, considering a 8-B attack could easily phase through a 8-C+ shield and send the ones behind it flying backwards.

See, they were not killed, smited and such, they were just thrown backwards.

And one could argue if they did not trade spells, that wouldn't be an actual fight.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It is obviously not what happened. Every time Rowling refers to this match, she uses the word "duel"; "dueling", "fight"; "fighting", and one assumes if they're fighting, they would have blocked his spells. They couldn't keep simply dodging, they were fairly old (and age is a thing in HP) and Voldemort's reflexes were most likely superior to theirs.

"Dueling" and "fighting" does not always mean they are fighting on equal grounds or even harming your opponent. The quote you gave me implied they were dodging and avoiding his attacks, and it even says they couldn't, with their combined forces, put him down, making the idea of them as a group being his equal make no sense.

That was, as the quote says, an explosion of power, coming from his fury, much likely tapping into the Elder Wand and very similar to what happened with Hogwart's barrier.

They were sent "flailing backwards" according to the quote, and that was apparently when they already had shields up, implying Voldemort's blast broke through their magical shields and sent them flying. That doesn't tell me the three of them could block his attacks together, that tells me the three used their most powerful barriers to just barely survive that blast with their shields breaking as a result. If the three of them actually each had 1/3 of Voldemort's power as you suggest, the three of them could have blocked the attack with their shields together. Their combined attacks didn't even phase Voldemort in the earlier quote.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I will admit to Hermione/Luna/Ginny being equal to Beatrix when working together, though. That's made abundantly clear in the quote you provided.

 

[The_Archdemon]

The same happened to Dumbledore himself back in the Order of the Phoenix. He was with his shield up, Voldemort sent a shockwave that phased through it and brought Dumbledore to the ground.

But, you see, I could keep on showing how ilogical Voldemort and the likes being that superior to anyone else, including wizards who are constantly compared to them is but, if you're simply not willing to understand and accept, there's nothing I could actually do since Ant prefers your opinion and since ADMs words are the last here.

I've already done that was in my power.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The same happened to Dumbledore himself back in the Order of the Phoenix. He was with his shield up, Voldemort sent a shockwave that phased through it and brought Dumbledore to the ground.

That sounds more like Voldemort bypassing shields altogether rather than him making a blast that shattered it.

But, you see, I could keep on showing how ilogical Voldemort and the likes being that superior to anyone else, including wizards who are constantly compared to them but, if you're simply not willing to understand and accept, there's nothing I could actually do since Ant prefers your opinion and since ADMs words are the last here.
I'm not saying Voldemort is unquantifyably higher than any given wizard. I'm saying directly scaling his lower end feats to other wizards is not fair given his status as the greatest dark wizard of his time, and how the instances you gave are the wizards failing to even harm him and avoiding his attacks.

I just laid out why your primary reasoning for scaling them to Voldemort doesn't make sense. Respond to my points instead of throwing up your hands and claiming that I just can't understand your point of view and that I'm somehow favored by Ant.

Heck, Ant even said earlier that you were making more sense. Nor is Ant's opinion the end-all-be-all here. Nor is any of this relevant to the discussion.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And just to clear the air, I think 9-A for a lot of wizards is fine, even 8-C if the feats are given. I just don't agree with getting the later from scaling to Voldemort.

 

[The_Archdemon]

I suppose it is fine if you don't agree with Rowling's scalling.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't disagree with Rowling's scaling, I'm saying no such scaling exists, and that the examples you provided didn't support any claim to scaling.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Anyway, isn't that whole scene in the end of Fantastic Beasts 1, where the aurors start fixing New York's buildings, like, full of 8-C feats? If that's what you want, anyway.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It would depend on how large the buildings they are fixing are, how many aurors are involved, and the largest chunks being moved and at what speeds, but maybe.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Yes, that's why Voldemort could freely go through Moody's protective charms and easily enter Grimmauld Place.

That's also why Voldemort immediately brought Harry's broom down with that spell, in spite of Snape trying to counter and slow down its effects.

Also, that's why Voldemort could easily pierce through Snape's mind and killed him on-the-spot upon doing so.

That's also why Dumbledore could not undo nor slow down the effects of Voldemort's curse and, when he asked for Snape's help, he could do nothing and Dumbledore died in a few days.

Oh, wait, none of that ever took place.

Sorry for the sarcasm, I just couldn't help.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Phrasing that without the sarcasm could help me understand what you're trying to say better, because I don't really know what point you're trying to make.

And I've already asked you to cut the attitude/sarcasm once, and this is now my second time politely asking you that.

 

[The_Archdemon]

I'm sorry, things are a little complicated in the Real World for me and, since there was no way I could get through that whole "but he's Voldemort" thing of yours, I ended up being sarcastic.

I apologize, as my sarcarm's never meant for offense.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Please check the clip and see if you can locate anything you would find useful, sir.

I personally think this one deserves some attention, since it is one single auror repairing a considerable amout of damage in a street.

Still, I'll wait for your input, sir.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm sorry, things are a little complicated in the Real World for me and, since there was no way I could get through that whole "but he's Voldemort" thing of yours, I ended up being sarcastic.

I'm not insisting the scaling is flawed because "it's Voldemort", please stop rephrasing my arguments into fuel for a Straw Man. I laid out my greivences with them here:

I don't disagree with Rowling's scaling, I'm saying no such scaling exists, and that the examples you provided didn't support any claim to scaling.

I've explained the primary feat you gave for the "these three together = Voldemort" lacks any instance of them rivaling or equaling Voldemort, only avoiding his magic and failing to harm him even while working together, and them and their shields being outed by a single spell.

I've explained Moody's feat makes little sense given that Voldemort could break through barriers of a much greater scope when needed, thus making it inconsistent with Voldemort's other feats.

Please stop trying to attack my knowledge on the series, misrepresent my arguments, and fall back at accusing me of getting preference due to me being Discussion Mod. I'm just putting forward arguments in response to your points. Put arguments back, and if people agree with you more (which seems to be the case), then that's that.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Please check the clip and see if you can locate anything you would find useful, sir.
I personally think this one deserves some attention, since it is one single auror repairing a considerable amout of damage in a street.

Those look like some great supporting feats for 9-B/9-A, however I doubt they approach 8-C as they're using their combined magic and that they're not repairing leveled buildings but instead are fixing damage to structures attached to the buildings.

This bridge shot with three Aurors and this building shot with I'm not sure how many aurors are definitely worth calcing, though.

 

[The_Archdemon]

I've explained the primary feat you gave for the "these three together = Voldemort" lacks any instance of them rivaling or equaling Voldemort, only avoiding his magic and failing to harm him even while working together, and them and their shields being outed by a single spell.

That sounds more like Voldemort bypassing shields altogether rather than him making a blast that shattered it.
	~ Dargoo​

Why is it so for Dumbledore and not for the trio? You cannot actually prove Voldemort used two different spells, as they are portrayed in a quite similar way in both occasions.

I've explained Moody's feat makes little sense given that Voldemort could break through barriers of a much greater scope when needed, thus making it inconsistent with Voldemort's other feats.

Voldemort only went through Hogwarts barrier with the Elder Wand, which is not the case (he never attempted to get through it after he got the wand).

 

[The_Archdemon]

Many things to calc, lol.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Why is it so for Dumbledore and not for the trio? You cannot actually prove Voldemort used two different spells, as they are portrayed in a quite similar way in both occasions.

Thank you for being direct with your responses here. The burden of proof is actually on you for what spells Voldemort used, especially considering the one used on the trio was an explosion/blast and the one used on Dumbledore was a shockwave.

Even then accepting both as the same spell would place all three on the same level of Dumbledore, which would contradict his portrayal as being the strongest wizard at Hogwarts, which is backed by a large number of statements, making the feat inconsistent. And even then, it would make no sense as the three of them working together still couldn't harm Voldemort, which would contradict them being able to survive his attacks and harm each other, and how Voldemort downed them all in one attack. One-shots also do not always have to result in the characters being obliterated, just defeated.

Voldemort only went through Hogwarts barrier with the Elder Wand, which is not the case (he never attempted to get through it after he got the wand).

Especially considering the Elder Wand was rejecting him at the time, I don't see why Voldemort is that much stronger with the Elder Wand to where without it someone like Moody could block him. It's still pretty inconsistent.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Many things to calc, lol.

Yeah, like I said I'm much more amicable to the upgrades with supporting feats, although even then the likes of Dumbledore and Voldemort should be significantly above whatever they should regardless.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Yeah, like I said I'm much more amicable to the upgrades with supporting feats, although even then the likes of Dumbledore and Voldemort should be significantly above whatever they should regardless.

I really do not agree with them being all that way above everybody else, sir. See my next comment.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I really do not agree with them being all that way above everybody else, sir. See my next comment.

Exceptionally skilled wizards being in higher end 9-A with Volde being in High 8-C/8-B isn't like any astronomical distance. I felt like the novels made it clear Voldemort was one of the greatest wizards of his time, rivaled by Dumbledore only. Three higher end teachers or deatheaters matching him in skill or power together isn't very well supported and is inconsistent in general looking at the evidence I was provided.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Three higher end teachers or deatheaters matching him in skill or power together isn't very well supported and is inconsistent in general looking at the evidence I was provided.

Especially considering the Elder Wand was rejecting him at the time, I don't see why Voldemort is that much stronger with the Elder Wand to where without it someone like Moody could block him. It's still pretty inconsistent.

I don't actually remember the Elder Wand rejecting him meaning much in the novels besides stopping him from harming Potter. And, in the movie, the wand itself cracked with the effort. And since the 8-B tier comes from the Elder Wand, we cannot scale Voldemort destroying that barrier with the wand to him without it.

Also, no-wand Voldemort could not enter Hogwarts, nor enter the Burrow. There are many times in the series where people block/counter him, like Snape in the Philoshopher's Stone and then again in the Half-Blood Prince.

Also also, I do believe Newt and Theseus blocking Grindelwald's attacks should be worth something, and that whole "Finite" thing is most certainly around Tier 8.

ALSO, that spell of Grindelwald was not Fiendfyre, but rather something called "Protego Diabolica", and I believe one could try and calc it then.

Again, too much things to calc.