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The Great upgrade a level of wizards
- Thread starter Gendolfgg1
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #122
We can also, when dividing the versions of films and books, add any level of mountain split to the book version of Credence, and leave the film version as it is now, or recalculated.
Yes, thanks, I wanted to do this earlier, but I forgot
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,703
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I haven't heard about any need for splitting the book and movie versions of Fantasical Beast.
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- Thread starter
- #124
I think that given such different facts about films and scripts, it looks more than fair. Although we haven't discussed this before, why not separate the films and scripts of Fantastic Beats in the same way as the films and books on Harry Potter?
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,703
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I'm unsure about that.
Unlike the Harry Potter books and films, which follow different canons, the script is essentially a screenplay for the filmmaker to use. Unless you want to argue that the Harry Potter film script differs from the film itself, which I do not believe is very plausible.
Unlike the Harry Potter books and films, which follow different canons, the script is essentially a screenplay for the filmmaker to use. Unless you want to argue that the Harry Potter film script differs from the film itself, which I do not believe is very plausible.
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- Thread starter
- #126
Yes, the director can use it, but he can also change it, which is what we see in the films. We can also take examples from the Harry Potter books, which were adapted into films, where we will also find inconsistencies.
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- #127
Moreover, the script for the Harry Potter films is practically no different from the original books. We can take as an example only one duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort and make sure that there are a lot of differences between the script and the film.
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Jason_Courne
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I'm good with this
Splitting a generic mountain in half typically gets Town level to Small City level, but otherwise, this should be ok to use (we do have a history of using scripts / novelizations to get the higher end of a feat due to on-screen limitations)
Hmm, this seems fine
I don't think this should qualify for AP or DC (maybe creation energy but that's it), otherwise this looks good
Good, should only scale to creation energy
Seems good, but iirc, Apparition does have a definite limit to it's range (hence Voldemort flying to Harry rather than just apparating to him)
Agree with their existence, but they should only be under creation feats
Hmm, this is difficult but I can agree with some level of spell scaling
I'm neutral
Only the killing curse should have this power, if I remember correctly
This feat right? I'm neutral because as previously said it was a storm CLOUD not a full thunderstorm, although I'd lean towards agree
Hmm, I'm leaning towards agree with magic shields
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- Thread starter
- #130
Yes, that's what I meant.
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I'd just like to mention that even if Credence destroyed the entire mountain in the script, which I highly doubt, he probably wouldn't be Mountain level. According to this page that describes the requirements for Mountain and Island level, the mountain that is destroyed must have a height and radius of around 3682.55 meters (assuming fragmentation, which would make most sense from the description "break apart") for the feat of blowing it up to qualify for Mountain level. However, the average prominence (elevation from the ground around the mountain) of the mountains in the Austrian Alps, where Nurmengard is located, is 1800 meters. Using the formula from the aforementioned page, the feat would be City level. Even using violent fragmentation, which is unlikely, the feat would only barely reach Mountain level
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- Thread starter
- #132
Thank you for getting more information about this. I agree with you, in principle, that's why I indicated the level of the Credence city, POSSIBLY a mountain, taking into account some facts, for example, that at the time of the destruction of the mountain, Credence had just started learning magic and there was clearly an indication in the script that he would be able to do more in the future; the creation of seismic waves (a controversial point, but it exists). So I think the peak version of Credence fits the criterion of possibly a mountain.
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Then we can put him in city lvl and add likely higher to address his peak.
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- Thread starter
- #134
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Also, we should talk abt wizards who should scale to credence in ap/dura to also upgrade them.
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When I calculated the fragmentation end, the result was approximately 4.8x10^16 Joules, which means that he would have to be nearly ten times more powerful to reach Mountain level. Even though he improved, I don't think it's likely that he improved by that much. I must also mention that this calculation only applies if he destroyed the whole mountain, something I still think is ambiguous wether actually was the case.
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It said that the mountain breaking was just the beginning so he could've improved 10 times.
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- #138
I think it could be Grindelwald, Dumbledore and Voldemort. I would have hoped for more, but you pointed out above that Credence is out of reach for the levels of middle wizards, so I think this is more than fair.
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He could, but I don't think it's likely, and since we don't really have any evidence that he improved at all (in terms of power), it would be pure speculation which we can't add to the profiles. Also, this:
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- Thread starter
- #140
Well, at least at the time of the 3rd film, Credence was able to somehow fight Dumbledore
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Yeah, god tier should be all superior to him. The only other we can scale beside god tiers is gunnar who's a high tier but he didn't interacted with others so ig god tiers are all we can scale to credence.
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Then how do you think abt possibly higher?
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However, that doesn't really indicate that he improved in terms of power, just skill.
If we assume that he actually destroyed the whole mountain, this would probably be fine. I'm still not convinced that he did, though.
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- #144
Bump
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- #145
Ahem. While there is no verdict from the staff, why didn't anyone mention the feat from Wonderbook when the wizard used a spell to bring down a mountain on an opponent? https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Mountain-moving_spell
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- #146
I don't think the wizard who uses it is a high level, so I think it can be scaled to a medium level. Yes, it is complex and long, but some non-verbal forms are able to shorten it and use it as an attack. Why not? This is more like the destructive potential of other powerful spells and spell forms. Moreover, it does not look like an accidental or unconventional use of magic, as it was in the case of an explosion of a village or volcano.
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I've mentioned this in a different thread but it wasn't deeply discussed there.
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- #148
Yes, I saw it. I think it's worth discussing. We need to invite the participants of our topic, although I don't think it will affect any updates (just as additional material)
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,703
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Feat looks fine at a glance, but we only saw one instance of this spell being used, so I'm unsure if this can be scaled to anything. It is probably fine to just mention it on the verse page.
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- #150
I would agree with you, but if we compare with spells that blew up a village or a volcano (as we agreed to attribute them to an unconventional or random level of magic use in the verse profile), it turns out that this example differs from them in that this spell was not done accidentally or unconventionally: it was quite intended and purposefully. I do not think that this is some kind of complex spell, that an unknown wizard knows it, but Dumbledore, for example, who knows more than a thousand spells and is recognized as the wisest wizard of all time, cannot know it. Yes, we have seen an isolated case of using this spell, but we cannot say that this spell cannot be used by any other wizard, simply because it could have been left behind the scenes or simply not used on occasion. With the same confidence, we can say that they lied about Albus that he knows more than a thousand spells, but obviously this is not the case.
I think this particular spell can be scaled up to medium, or rather high-level wizards (due to its complexity). And it will be more like the truth if we recognize the feat of Credence from the script
Jamesthetaker
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Yes, it is a spell intended to hurt the opponent, but the situation around it is pretty ambigious. Like how big of a mountain the spell can lift, how high it was lifted, and were there any other instances where it was used, are there any similar spells at this level, etc.?
Sure, you could assume that wizard is not as skilled as Dumbledore or Voldemort, but you can not claim that those two know these spells simply because they are better than most wizards without evidence.
You could argue that it was left behind the scenes or that people forgot about it, but the nature of the spells was never clearly explained in the first place. All that was said was that this wizard attempted to drop a mountain on his opponent's head, but his wand became disabled, and he lost. If we don't see what happens, then why make up all these assumptions?
Sure, you could assume that wizard is not as skilled as Dumbledore or Voldemort, but you can not claim that those two know these spells simply because they are better than most wizards without evidence.
You could argue that it was left behind the scenes or that people forgot about it, but the nature of the spells was never clearly explained in the first place. All that was said was that this wizard attempted to drop a mountain on his opponent's head, but his wand became disabled, and he lost. If we don't see what happens, then why make up all these assumptions?
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- #152
We can take the averages. But the fact remains. The wizard affected an entire mountain. Well, such spells, as we have already discussed, can really be. The example of Credence and Vesuvius.
We know that Dumbledore knows about a thousand spells, and Voldemort knows about horcruxes that Albus didn't know about.
Why is that? We know that he was trying to pull the mountain out of the ground.
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,703
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I'm not denying any of those feats; I'm saying that putting them on the same power level doesn't really make sense when they are completely different feats. Credence "barely" split a mountain as shown in the movie, Vesuvius feat is ambiguous and probably won't scale to anything else.
Knowing a thousand spells is meaningless if we don't know what any of them do. Horcruxes are unknown to most wizards, but knowing one area does not imply knowing everything else.
The emphasis is on the word "trying." The narrator's statement is everything we know about the spell, and no further details about the spells were provided.
Knowing a thousand spells is meaningless if we don't know what any of them do. Horcruxes are unknown to most wizards, but knowing one area does not imply knowing everything else.
The emphasis is on the word "trying." The narrator's statement is everything we know about the spell, and no further details about the spells were provided.
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- #154
These are different skills, yes, but about the same level. I just want to say that this feat does not exaggerate the others and looks real against the background of the others. I still don't agree with the fact that we equate the script and the film, which shows completely different levels. In the film, Credence break apart the mountainside, in the script - break apart the mountain.
I mean, high-level wizards are wise and obviously need to know such spells. With the same confidence, we can say that Dumbledore cannot use the Stunning Spell or Hellfire because he did not show it.
Isn't the specified words enough? After all, more than half of the game is text, not visual accompaniment.
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I agree with James.
Jamesthetaker
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I don't know why you're claiming they are at the same level when the actual results are very different. The Vesuvius feat is around High 7-A, while Credence's feat, despite not being re-calculated yet, likely won't be anywhere in 7-A. For example, you could have a bunch of "mountain-level" feats with varying results, and not all of them have to be 7-A.
Being wise and competent is not synonymous with knowing everything. Spells like stunning, freezing, and so on are very common and taught to Hogwarts students, so we can assume that Dumbledore is familiar with them even if we have never seen him use them. Less common spells, on the other hand, are a different story because most wizards do not have access to them, so we cannot say trained wizards can use them simply because they are skilled without evidence.
This is about the mountain-moving spell in particular, not the overall competence of trained wizards. Because the spell itself does not provide us with enough detail to work with in the first place, assumption is all we can do, which is not a good practice. The other half of the game still provides enough visuals to help us understand what is going on. It's just that the moutain-moving spell was never the focus of the game; it showed up once, failed, and then the game moved on.
Now, I don't want to be a nitpicker, and I have nothing against Harry Potter or its supporters, but I will be straight here: you might be misunderstanding the semantics of Credence's feat.
Your claim is "Credence breaks apart the mountain," aka the mountain is blown up and fragmented, something like this. It would be at least in Low 7-B tier.
However, the exact line in the script is "breaks apart the mountain opposite," stating that only the side of the mountain was destroyed and not the entire thing. This is literally what happens in the film, and the filmmaker followed the script exactly. Unless the feat was recalculated, it is only in the 8-C tier now.
Your claim is "Credence breaks apart the mountain," aka the mountain is blown up and fragmented, something like this. It would be at least in Low 7-B tier.
However, the exact line in the script is "breaks apart the mountain opposite," stating that only the side of the mountain was destroyed and not the entire thing. This is literally what happens in the film, and the filmmaker followed the script exactly. Unless the feat was recalculated, it is only in the 8-C tier now.
Being wise and competent is not synonymous with knowing everything. Spells like stunning, freezing, and so on are very common and taught to Hogwarts students, so we can assume that Dumbledore is familiar with them even if we have never seen him use them. Less common spells, on the other hand, are a different story because most wizards do not have access to them, so we cannot say trained wizards can use them simply because they are skilled without evidence.
This is about the mountain-moving spell in particular, not the overall competence of trained wizards. Because the spell itself does not provide us with enough detail to work with in the first place, assumption is all we can do, which is not a good practice. The other half of the game still provides enough visuals to help us understand what is going on. It's just that the moutain-moving spell was never the focus of the game; it showed up once, failed, and then the game moved on.
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- Thread starter
- #157
Well, I think you've already realized that I disagree with you about Credence) Above, the members of our topic and I found out that the feat of Credence will be somewhere at the city level, if we take into account not the highest height of the mountains near the castle of Grindelwald.
As for the levels, I mean that the difference is not that big. It won't be a sudden leap between a city block and a mountain.
I don't see any point in arguing about Credence's feat again, because we've already decided that he really should have a higher level from the script than from the film. I think Credence cut the mountain in half, or at least into pieces. But nevertheless, your minimum is fair. "breaks apart the mountain opposite" doesn't mean anything yet. What makes you think that, anyway? As I wrote above, he just cut it into pieces, looking at it from the front side. That's all. And, again, in the film, the mountain is not exactly opposite to Credence and he breaks not her, but her slope, which is a big difference.
However, we also cannot know if the mountain shifting spell is somehow special or difficult to learn, such as horcruxes (at least because it is dark and ancient magic), since it is a common charm spell. We also don't know if he still has access to this spell, because it was demonstrated once after the original series as a complex and long-lasting verbal spell. Obviously, we are being pushed to the idea that this spell is not very popular to use due to its ineffectiveness, for example, against Expelliarmus (as shown). Dumbledore, for example, introduced himself to us (readers) like the wisest wizard who knows every spell. I don't think at this level of the idea of the wisest wizard, this wizard who uses the mountain moving spell is more knowledgeable in charm spells. However, I still don't understand why it's not enough for you to be told what this spell does.
In general, I don't think we will come to any conclusion that will satisfy both sides, so we need more opinions on this.
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My intention when writing this was not to prove that the feat was City level, but to show that even as an absolute high-end, the feat wouldn't be Mountain level like some posts seemed to imply. My opinion is, and has always been, that Credence very likely didn't destroy the whole mountain, and I think James makes perfect sense here.
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- #159
Well, I've already asked one person to calculate the Credence feat from the script. So let's see what happens. In any case, the staff has not yet expressed their opinion on this matter
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,703
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Since we are not going anywhere with this, I also opted to wait for staff members to weigh in on both sides.
