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Some thoughts on the Harry Potter profiles

Dweller_Of_Dreams

Dweller_Of_Dreams

140
55
Hello! I want to propose some changes to the Harry Potter/Wizarding World profiles:
  • Feats from the 8 Harry Potter movies should not be included. Alternatively the movie versions of characters should get their own profiles.
  • Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindelwald should be downgraded to High 8-C. Voldemort destroying the shield around Hogwarts is a movie-only thing, and Dumbledore's mist feat is based on a misunderstanding; the Harry Potter universe does not have any sort of mana, and magic works by individual spells having their own, individual effects. Therefore, the fact that Dumbledore knows a spell that has the effect of filling a city with mist, doesn't mean that he knows a spell that can blow up a certain area or harm someone with a certain durability.
  • On the other hand, most of the wizards/witches who have profiles here, are extremely underrepresented in the Powers an abilities-section. I suggest that we could use the Magical abilities and skills-section on the Harry Potter Wiki as a starting point for a more complete representation of their abilities.
  • Dumbledore and McGonagall's profiles seem to suggest that magic grows weaker with age. This is not true, and is at no point shown or even implied in canon. Power in Harry Potter is primarily knowledge and skill-based (how many and how powerful spells you know, and how good you are at using them), so power should, if anything, increase with age. As for Dumbledore's physical stats, he should scale to any other wizard/witch in the series. His supposedly slower reaction time is a lie told by him and Snape to make his injury seem less suspicious, and is disproved at the beginning of Half-Blood Prince when he draws his wand faster than Harry can see. Further, I suggest reading the Physical aptitude-section at the bottom of this.
  • I would also like to mention that Voldemort is canonically more powerful than Grindelwald, stated multiple times in the books and on Pottermore. Their profiles seem to mix this up at times.

Lastly, I have some feats from the books that could be interesting to try to calc:
  • Voldemort's fire serpent in Order of the Phoenix (Unlike in the movie, it likely isn't fiendfire, as he simply transmuted Dumbledore's fire rope.)
  • McGonagall filling a corridor with fire in her duel with Snape in Deathly Hallows
  • An unknown number of Death Eaters shaking Hogwarts at the beginning of the Battle of Hogwarts
  • Augustus Rookwood killing Fred Weasley with an explosion during the Battle of Hogwarts
  • A masked Death Eater getting hit by a conjured brick wall during the Battle of the Seven Potters
  • A giant called Golgomath ripping off another giant's head in Order of the Phoenix
  • Voldemort creating a shockwave that sent McGonagall, Slughorn and Kingsley flying towards the end of the Battle of Hogwarts
  • Hagrid throwing Walden Macnair across the Great Hall towards the end of the Battle of Hogwarts
  • Bellatrix sending the head of a giant, golden statue flying in Order of the Phoenix
  • Voldemort's Avada Kedavra blowing a giant, golden statue into pieces in Order of the Phoenix
  • Voldemort splitting a bridge in two in Half-Blood Prince
  • A Death Eater/giant attack in Half-Blood Prince resulting in trees being uprooted and roofs being ripped off
  • The Irish seeker, Aidan Lynch, crashing into the ground two times during the Quidditch World Cup final
  • Thorfinn Rowle collapsing a ceiling during the Battle of the Astronomy Tower

Any thoughts on this?

PS: This is my first time posting, so please feel free to correct me if you see any mistakes.
 
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I agree the 8 movies are their own continuity though some people mentioned "Secondary canon" which means cinematic timeframes and such can still apply to feats that also happened in the books in lack of better options. Though, feats that are movie exclusive outright should not be used for book characters.

I also recall agreeing Harry Potter's magic system merely classifies as a Limited Energy System which mean mist generation spells don't always scale to fire/explosion spells by default yeah.

I sort of agree with the age thing; physical strength may reduce with age, but not wisdom or experience which in turn effects magical spells.

Yeah, Voldemort is consistently stated to be "The most powerful dark wizard of all time" though I think most believed it was due to his utility with horcruxes making him difficult to kill rather than his raw power. The fight scene with Dumbledore and Grindelward did have them as equal in power but Dumbledore was a bit more skilled and knowledgeable; another fact was Grindelward was also amped by the Elder Wand while Dumbledore had no such thing. Thus he's likely gotten much stronger after obtaining it.

All of those book feats could be looked at, but it might be hard to calculate without any reference points.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree the 8 movies are their own continuity though some people mentioned "Secondary canon" which means cinematic timeframes and such can still apply to feats that also happened in the books in lack of better options. Though, feats that are movie exclusive outright should not be used for book characters.

I also recall agreeing Harry Potter's magic system merely classifies as a Limited Energy System which mean mist generation spells don't always scale to fire/explosion spells by default yeah.

I sort of agree with the age thing; physical strength may reduce with age, but not wisdom or experience which in turn effects magical spells.

Yeah, Voldemort is consistently stated to be "The most powerful dark wizard of all time" though I think most believed it was due to his utility with horcruxes making him difficult to kill rather than his raw power. The fight scene with Dumbledore and Grindelward did have them as equal in power but Dumbledore was a bit more skilled and knowledgeable; another fact was Grindelward was also amped by the Elder Wand while Dumbledore had no such thing. Thus he's likely gotten much stronger after obtaining it.

All of those book feats could be looked at, but it might be hard to calculate without any reference points.
Click to expand...
About Voldemort; nobody really knew about his horcruxes, apart from himself, Dumbledore and the trio, though, so I think the statements were made regarding his magical power. I also remember Dumbledore stating that Voldemort possessed deadly skill and that he was more knowledgeable about magic than any person alive, which would include Grindelwald.

As for the feats, I think I could find scans quite quickly, if that would help?

Edit:
I've found scans for all the feats, including Dumbledore drawing his wand so fast that Harry barely sees it.
 
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Here are scans for all the feats I've mentioned:
Voldemort splitting a bridge in two #1 (this is likely incalcuable, since the bridge in question does not exist)
Voldemort splitting a bridge in two #2 (this is likely incalcuable, since the bridge in question does not exist)
Voldemort blowing a statue into pieces
Voldemort's fire serpent #1 (this was apparently a normal snake, not a fire serpent)
Voldemort's fire serpent #2 (this was apparently a normal snake, not a fire serpent)
Voldemort creating a shockwave
Rowle collapsing a ceiling
Rookwood killing Fred #1
Rookwood killing Fred #2
McGonagall filling a corridor with fire
Lynch crashing #1
Lynch crashing #2
Hagrid throwing Walden Macnair
Golgomath ripping off another giant's head
Dumbledore drawing his wand
The Death Eater attack
Death Eaters shaking Hogwarts
Bellatrix decapitating a statue
A Death Eater getting hit by a brick wall
 
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Excellent work, and very good job tackling this!

I agree with most points, with just a small addendum: While there is no mana and spells indeed are categorized by their individual characteristics, there absolutely is some manner or form of magical power that varies. I recall occasional references to the existence of such a concept, particularly how Bartholomew Jr. stated how most Hogwarts students could attempt to Avada Kedavra him and fail to make his nose bleed, and Harry's first Patronus creation. There are more examples, but those I immediately recall.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
Excellent work, and very good job tackling this!

I agree with most points, with just a small addendum: While there is no mana and spells indeed are categorized by their individual characteristics, there absolutely is some manner or form of magical power that varies. I recall occasional references to the existence of such a concept, particularly how Bartholomew Jr. stated how most Hogwarts students could attempt to Avada Kedavra him and fail to make his nose bleed, and Harry's first Patronus creation. There are more examples, but those I immediately recall.
Click to expand...
Yeah, there are some references to the concept of "magical power" throughout the series, but I've always interpreted that as more of a talent thing, that they find it easier than most to use powerful spells. Either way, it's vague enough that I don't think we can scale a fog-making spell to any sort of offensive spells.

Edit:
This doesn't necessarily have too much to do with the topic of magical power, but I think this post and its top comment captures the nature of Harry Potter magic really well.
 
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I've done a rough estimate, and the Death Eater hitting a brick wall and Lynch crashing seem to be around Wall level, which is consistent with the current general durability of wizards. I'm pretty bad at calculations, though, so I would appreciate if someone else could give these two and (if doable) the other feats a try!
 
So, to make it more clear, these are the concrete changes I suggest:
  • Make seperate book and movie profiles
  • Downgrade Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindelwald to High 8-C
  • Remove anything stating Grindelwald to be superior to Voldemort
  • Remove anything stating old Dumbledore to be weaker than before
  • Upgrade old Dumbledore to 9-B physically with subsonic reactions
  • Remove "higher in her prime" from McGonagall's profile
  • Use the Magical abilities and skills-section on the Harry Potter Wiki as a starting point for a more complete representation of characters' abilities
  • Get someone more competent than me at calcing to look at the feats I've presented

Does this sound relatively reasonable?
 
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Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
I'm pretty bad at calculations, though, so I would appreciate if someone else could give these two and (if doable) the other feats a try!
Click to expand...
A lot of things need to be changed, I think this verse is practically dead.

So I think it will be difficult to find help with these calculations and changes.

-

And as for the fog thing, I don't know if the magical world has a Universal Energy System. I don't know if any crt about this already existed.

Anyway, given my little experience with HP, I don't see how a fog spell could improve offensive spells, especially when there is no such thing as "mana".
 
Cropfist said:
Dumbledore created a replica of Berlin. Grindlewald busted a mountain (confirmed in the script). Zaccaria Innocenti accidentally caused the Mount Vesuvius eruption. Archibald Alderton unintentionally busted a small town. Dedalus Diggle caused a meteor shower in the first book and a random wizard in Book of Spells created a tornado to disperse a storm. Upgrades are more in order than downgrades
Click to expand...
I really like Harry Potter and I think it's extremely underrated in versus debates, but I also really like consistency and for things to make sense. Anything above Large Building level simply doesn't make sense, in my opinion. As for the feats you've provided:
  • Dumbledore creating a replica of Berlin is a great illusion feat, but I don't think it scales to his attack potency for the same reasons as the mist feat.
  • Breaking apart a mountain doesn't necessarily mean that the whole mountain is destroyed, which is supported by the movie version of events.
  • I don't think this could be used as an attack potency feat for Innocenti, unless he's going to dance on his opponents. It could be a good durability feat, though, especially because he danced inside the volcano.
  • Alderton blowing up a hamlet doesn't necessarily mean much of an upgrade, as the wizarding hamlets in Hogwarts Legacy, at least, are extremely small. Since it was an accident, I also highly doubt he would be able to recreate the feat. Additionally, it's worth noting that this feat is only ever mentioned in the first two Harry Potter video games, which I don't think count as canon.
  • Dedalus Diggle created "shooting stars", not a meteor shower, and I think this refers to something more aking to fireworks rather than meteors.
  • I've seen videos from the Book of Spells, and neither the tornado nor the storm were particularly large. I think they're likely quite consistent with the current rating for normal wizards.
What makes Harry Potter wizards dangerous opponents are largely their hax abilities and extreme versatility, not their attack potency, and I've already mentioned that they are underrepresented on this Wiki in that regard. Still, good job finding these feats, though.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
A lot of things need to be changed, I think this verse is practically dead.

So I think it will be difficult to find help with these calculations and changes.

-

And as for the fog thing, I don't know if the magical world has a Universal Energy System. I don't know if any crt about this already existed.

Anyway, given my little experience with HP, I don't see how a fog spell could improve offensive spells, especially when there is no such thing as "mana".
Click to expand...
I know, that's part of why I made this account, to try my best to revive the verse! If I can't find anyone who wants to calc these feats, I'll probably give them a try myself, but I hope it doesn't end with that as I really don't know anything about calcing other than the most basic things.
And, yeah, I don't think the fog spell can be used to find attack potency, due to how the magic system in Harry Potter works.
 
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
I know, that's part of why I made this account, to try my best to revive the verse! If I can't find anyone who wants to calc these feats, I'll probably give them a try myself, but I hope it doesn't end with that as I really don't know anything about calcing other than the most basic things.
And, yeah, I don't think the fog spell can be used to find attack potency, due to how the magic system in Harry Potter works.
Click to expand...
Maybe it would be good to do a general discussion of the Magical World too, I don't think there are any current or living ones at least.

And try to call some of the supporters listed on the verse.

Anyway, good luck.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Maybe it would be good to do a general discussion of the Magical World too, I don't think there are any current or living ones at least.

And try to call some of the supporters listed on the verse.

Anyway, good luck.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I tried calling for some of the supporters listed on the Wizarding World-page, but I was told that I couldn't tag staff. Good idea, though, I think I'll try.
 
Cropfist said:
Dumbledore created a replica of Berlin.
Click to expand...
Dont really no if that would be applicable to AP
At worst it could just be a creation feat or some other hax
Cropfist said:
Grindlewald busted a mountain (confirmed in the script).
Click to expand...
This has already been calculated at 8-C but the calc does have a few issues

I believe if done properly that it could reach 8-B
Cropfist said:
Zaccaria Innocenti accidentally caused the Mount Vesuvius eruption
Click to expand...
Unironically this would be somewhere in 7-B or 7-A using an ejecta formula
Cropfist said:
. Archibald Alderton unintentionally busted a small town.
Click to expand...
8-B to Low 7-C based on other calcs I've seen
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Dont really no if that would be applicable to AP
At worst it could just be a creation feat or some other hax

This has already been calculated at 8-C but the calc does have a few issues

I believe if done properly that it could reach 8-B

Unironically this would be somewhere in 7-B or 7-A using an ejecta formula

8-B to Low 7-C based on other calcs I've seen
Click to expand...
Alderton blowing up a hamlet is from the first two Harry Potter video games, which are based on the books and movies, but deviate a lot from both. I don't think they count as canon. Innocenti's feat comes from the Harry Potter Official Site, which I've actually never heard of and have no idea if it's canon or not. If it is canon, though, it would either be an outlier or an incredibly specific form of attack, like, "8-C with magic, 7-A with the Dancing Feet spell". Additionally, what do you think this feat would mean for Innocenti's durability?
 
I've made a discussion thread for the Wizarding World over on General Discussion, BTW, if you want to share your thoughts there, too.
 
Cropfist said:
Dumbledore created a replica of Berlin. Grindlewald busted a mountain (confirmed in the script). Zaccaria Innocenti accidentally caused the Mount Vesuvius eruption. Archibald Alderton unintentionally busted a small town. Dedalus Diggle caused a meteor shower in the first book and a random wizard in Book of Spells created a tornado to disperse a storm. Upgrades are more in order than downgrades
Click to expand...
Apparently, the Famous Wizard Cards are considered canon, even though the games they appear in are not. I apologise for my oversight. However, we still don't know the size of the hamlet Alderton blew up, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that it was somewhere between the size of these two hamlets. (Although I don't think Hogwarts Legacy counts as canon, it would probably be okay to use it for this purpose, as we haven't really seen hamlets in any other Wizarding World property.) As for Innocenti's dance, I've not been able to find anything confirming it as canon or not, so it would be helpful if anyone has any information on this.
 
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
Apparently, the Famous Wizard Cards are considered canon, even though the games they appear in are not. I apologise for my oversight. However, we still don't know the size of the hamlet Alderton blew up, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that it was somewhere between the size of these two hamlets. (Although I don't think Hogwarts Legacy counts as canon, it would probably be okay to use it for this purpose, as we haven't really seen hamlets in any other Wizarding World property.) As for Innocenti's dance, I've not been able to find anything confirming it as canon or not, so it would be helpful if anyone has any information on this.
Click to expand...
This is the definition of a hamlet, so I think the size I suggested would fit quite well.
 
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
Anything above Large Building level simply doesn't make sense, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Why? The wizarding world might lose a war with with the muggle world, but this involves factors other than sheer firepower.
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
Dumbledore creating a replica of Berlin is a great illusion feat, but I don't think it scales to his attack potency for the same reasons as the mist feat.
Click to expand...
It was a pocket dimension, however.
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
Breaking apart a mountain doesn't necessarily mean that the whole mountain is destroyed, which is supported by the movie version of events.
Click to expand...
The mountain is shown fracturing, the camera just clips away shy of the whole scene, which is what the screenplay clarifies.
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
I don't think this could be used as an attack potency feat for Innocenti, unless he's going to dance on his opponents.
Click to expand...
It could be debated whether this is a chain reaction, but moving tectonic plates to cause a magma eruption at all is small city level minimum, so it makes little difference.
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
Alderton blowing up a hamlet doesn't necessarily mean much of an upgrade, as the wizarding hamlets in Hogwarts Legacy, at least, are extremely small. Since it was an accident, I also highly doubt he would be able to recreate the feat.
Click to expand...
Accidents are more likely to be recreated, as he should logically be capable of worse if he were to purposely focus his magic power on it.
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
Dedalus Diggle created "shooting stars", not a meteor shower, and I think this refers to something more aking to fireworks rather than meteors.
Click to expand...
Shooting stars are meteors per definition.
Dweller_Of_Dreams said:
I've seen videos from the Book of Spells, and neither the tornado nor the storm were particularly large. I think they're likely quite consistent with the current rating for normal wizards.
Click to expand...
The lowest end tornadoes are large building level.
 
Cropfist said:
Why? The wizarding world might lose a war with with the muggle world, but this involves factors other than sheer firepower.
Click to expand...
I never said the Wizarding World would lose a war with the muggle world. I simply pointed out that if wizards' attack potency was any higher than Large Building level, we should have seen it in the books.
Cropfist said:
It was a pocket dimension, however.
Click to expand...
Was it ever stated that what Dumbledore created was a pocket dimension? Anyway, it likely wouldn't be applicable to attack potency for the same reasons I've argued the mist feat isn't. As I mentioned, it's still a great illusion/creation feat, though.
Cropfist said:
The mountain is shown fracturing, the camera just clips away shy of the whole scene, which is what the screenplay clarifies.
Click to expand...
Destroying something doesn't necessarily mean pulverising the whole thing, and we can see in this clip that Credence isn't even close to destroying the whole mountain.
Cropfist said:
It could be debated whether this is a chain reaction, but moving tectonic plates to cause a magma eruption at all is small city level minimum, so it makes little difference.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you're likely right about Innocenti, for the most part. I still don't think it's very applicable to a fight, though.
Cropfist said:
Accidents are more likely to be recreated, as he should logically be capable of worse if he were to purposely focus his magic power on it.
Click to expand...
I disagree that an accident is easier to recreate. As Alderton would likely have no idea how he did it, he wouldn't know how to do it again, either. It's also worth noting that Alderton was trying to bake a cake, which could mean that he was also using some obscure or even randomly mixed potions, too (though this is just speculation).
Cropfist said:
Shooting stars are meteors per definition.
Click to expand...
I apologise, in my language, "shooting stars" is both a word for meteors and a type of firework, so I assumed Diggle created the latter, as it would be suitable for a celebration. However, the definition of a shooting star specifies that it is a small meteor that burns up on entering the earth's atmosphere. Therefore, I don't think this would give him all that great of an attack potency, since all he did was make a small rock move fast and then burn up before it could hit anything. It would likely be a good range feat, though.
Cropfist said:
The lowest end tornadoes are large building level.
Click to expand...
The tornado in question looks really small, so the lowest end is probably most accurate. This supports the Large Building level rating.

Overall, I agree that magic can reach much higher levels of attack potency in specific circumstances, but generally, it caps at Large Building level. Thus, my suggestion is that we add this to the Wizarding World verse page, but don't scale any characters to these feats. Something like "The verse generally ranges from Wall level to Large Building level, though there have been instances of accidental or unconventional use of magic reaching [whatever tier Alderton's feat is] or even [whatever tier Innocenti's feat is]."
 
Greatsage13th said:
Is Hermione's time turner a canon thing?
Click to expand...
Yes, Time-Turners are canon, but they aren't really standard equipment for anyone. Additionally, all the Time-Turners at the Ministry get destroyed during the Battle of the Department of Mysteries in OOTP. Lastly, you can't go back more than approximately 5 hours without risking serious damage to yourself or to time itself.
 
I wanted to mention credence busting a mountain, the calc uses the shot we see the blast in front of credence, but the blast quite visibly grows in size to the size of the windows which are shown to be bigger than him, we should get a recalc of that using the visible pine trees next to the mountain as a reference instead
 
Cropfist said:
Dumbledore created a replica of Berlin. Grindelwald busted a mountain (confirmed in the script). Zaccaria Innocenti accidentally caused the Mount Vesuvius eruption. Archibald Alderton unintentionally busted a small town. Dedalus Diggle caused a meteor shower in the first book and a random wizard in Book of Spells created a tornado to disperse a storm. Upgrades are more in order than downgrades
Click to expand...
yeah I agree, the verse needs some major revisions, I also remember characters shooting lightning and reacting to them
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
yeah I agree, the verse needs some major revisions, I also remember characters shooting lightning and reacting to them
Click to expand...
Yeah, there are at least three instances of characters reacting to lightning, two of them being cloud-to-ground lightning. However, I don't know if this is the right direction to move in, as I think we should be much stricter with lightning feats for all verses, instead of just making everyone massively hypersonic. On the other hand, people might finally understand that Harry Potter characters don't get speedblitzed by just about anyone else, though this, in my opinion, is because the other characters are equally "slow", not because wizards are MHS+.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
It's stated to have dissipated a storm and the image looks to be not to scale since its being told in a story book format
Click to expand...
It's stated to have dissipated a storm cloud and the only damage it did was lifting a few people and trees. I think we have to assume it's relatively to scale, because otherwise it could be literally any size.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
I wanted to mention credence busting a mountain, the calc uses the shot we see the blast in front of credence, but the blast quite visibly grows in size to the size of the windows which are shown to be bigger than him, we should get a recalc of that using the visible pine trees next to the mountain as a reference instead
Click to expand...
I think you're right about this, though. There are a couple of issues with the calc.
 
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