The Great upgrade a level of wizards

[Gendolfgg1]

• (if you are reading this, then go to the list of updates below. these questions are no longer relevant.)
• 
  
• The topic of wizard levels has been discussed many times, but I have not seen that we have come to a unanimous conclusion regarding the feats that I will give below. I also disagree with the level of some of the characters from Harry Potter, but this will also be discussed below. If there has not yet been a decision to separate the Harry Potter films and books, then I think this is a great way to raise the level of wizards.
  
  Let's start with Voldemort. We know that he easily destroyed the shield of Hogwarts, but nevertheless, he has the level of just a city block. This is very strange considering:
  1) That previously the same Shield could not be destroyed by hundreds of Death eaters who are a level above Wormtail, who blew up the street (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X34HPAxlyd8)
  2) If we clarify the fact that the Hogwarts teachers who created this Shield are compared higher than the Aurors who stopped the Grindelwald flame, then the Shield level should obviously be higher than the level of the Grindelwald flame (Since Grindelwald calmly defeated many Aurors alone, and Hogwarts teachers successfully fought Voldemort in a duel.)
  3) Have you forgotten that Voldemort had an Elder Wand during the destruction of the Hogwarts Shield? So, she completely disobeyed him, because at that moment she belonged to Harry Potter, but nevertheless Tom was able to destroy the Shield, which suggests that at full strength he can do much more than he showed, despite the fact that at that time he was deprived of more than half of his horcruxes, which weaken him, as he loses part of his soul and the power of magic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek5qMsXHtU8)
  And I don't understand why Grindelwald has a higher level than Voldemort, who is said to be the most dangerous dark wizard of all time. And you don't need to come up with the idea that he is the most dangerous just because he has horcruxes. There is absolutely nothing written about this in the books, so we cannot say that this indication completely depends on the existence of Tom's horcruxes:
  
  The name of Grindelwald is justly famous: In a list of Most Dangerous Dark Wizards of All Time, he would miss out on the top spot only because You-Know-Who arrived, a generation later, to steal his crown. As Grindelwald never extended his campaign of terror to Britain, however, the details of his rise to power are not widely known here.
  
  Now Credence.
  'So, in the second part of Fantastic Beasts, we were shown how Credence destroys the mountainside with a spell. But if we read the script for this film, we will see that it does not destroy the mountainside, but cuts the mountain in half in principle (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:U_1LPPCHdX0.jpg). this is firstly.
  Oh, and yes, as you can see, in the finale of the second part of Fantastic Beasts, Credence only demonstrates his potential power, that is, he only trains in mastering his abilities immediately after he finds out that he is from Dumbledores. It is written that from this moment on, he will finally be able to control the power of the Obscur and direct it in the right direction and direction, which makes us understand that he can control his power to an indefinite extent, but what he showed in the screenshot is clearly not the peak of his level.
  
  Secondly, Credence demonstrates the ability to create seismic waves in a duel against Dumbledore. Let me remind you that seismic waves are extremely destructive forces that are manifested by tremors inside mountains and tectonic plates. And, obviously, to create such waves, an appropriate force is required. This is not a simple explosive wave, for example, from a grenade, and not a simple sound wave, but a seismic one, more powerful (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Gfq4dI6JpnI.jpg).
  
  Should I remind you that at the time of the duel, Credence did not hold back at all? He was ready to destroy the city, but wanted to kill Dumbledore because he believed (according to Grindelwald) that Dumbledore had betrayed him.
  based on the above, in my opinion, it is necessary to increase the level of Credence from the quarterly to the level of the city or mountain, depending on if you accept proofs.
  
  And I do not know if Credence differs in any high power from, for example, statistical wizards like Ron Weasley, because he only owns an Obscur - an uncontrollable force that was not revealed in time. In fact, absolutely any child who has not demonstrated his magical power and has not attended a school of witchcraft can become such a powerful wizard. Yet, he differs from other Obscure in that he lived much longer than usual, but this is not an indicator of any increased destructive potential.
  
  It's the turn of Dumbledore's undiscovered feat, in which he creates an exact replica of Berlin in a mirror dimension (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:MpMd8-QBXzc.jpg).
  I was told that this is just Hax and is not an energy potential, but I don't understand why, because creating something requires a certain amount of energy, and magic in the world of Harry Potter is closely related to the energy system. So I'm inclined to raise Dumbledore's level to the city.
  
  Now let's move on to the indirect sources of Harry Potter, who also flashed some powerful exploits. The well-known explosion of Vesuvius (https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Mount_Vesuvius), which was made with the help of a dance spell by a random dark wizard, makes you think about the limited power of spells. Therefore, from now on, we will slowly summarize this post;
  
  Archibald Alderton unintentionally busted a small town;
  Dedalus Diggle caused a meteor shower in the first book and a random wizard in Book of Spells created a tornado to disperse a storm;
  And finally, the most interesting thing that I have collected is how the Moon Lovegood affects Pluto.
  She has already shown super-powerful abilities for magic. I do not know if this has been discussed on forums before, but in the Order of the Phoenix, in the Department of Mysteries, in one of the rooms, most likely pocket dimensions, where there was zero gravity and all the signs of space, she blew up Pluto in Death Eater. Of course, I cannot 100% say that it was not a small layout planet, but we just can't do anything find in the text.
  
  “I think her ankle’s broken, I heard something crack,” whispered
  Luna, who was bending over her and who alone seemed to be unhurt.
  “Four of them chased us into a dark room full of planets, it was a very
  odd place, some of the time we were just floating in the dark —”
  “Harry, we saw Uranus up close!” said Ron, still giggling feebly.
  “Get it, Harry? We saw Uranus — ha ha ha —”
  A bubble of blood grew at the corner of Ron’s mouth and burst.
  “Anyway, one of them grabbed Ginny’s foot, I used the Reductor
  Curse and blew up Pluto in his face, but . . .”
  
  So, summing up, I would like to say that in fact wizards have a very powerful and high level, because they are basically not limited by physical conventions (such as, for example, physical laws, they can create something out of nothing). The problem is that most of them just don't want to destroy so many lives, after all, wizards are similar to Muggles in that they have humanity and feelings of compassion and conscience (with the possible exception of Voldemort, but he was obsessed with Harry Potter).
  
  But if we do not take the plot conventions, which just limit wizards in terms of destructive potential and level in general, then we need to raise their level to an indefinite one. I will be glad if we discuss what to do about it.

EDIT:

· Upgrading the level of Dumbledore and Voldemort to the level of Grindelwald and higher;
Agree (8): Dweller_Of_Dreams LightMoonWizard Lord_Farquaad69420 Cropfist Jason_Courne Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral (1): Jamesthetaker

· Upgrading the Credence level to the level of the city and possibly the mountain;
Agree (3): LightMoonWizard Cropfist Jason_Courne (level of city)
Disagree (5): Dweller_Of_Dreams Jamesthetaker Mr._Bambu (the level of a small town at best) InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral (1): Lord_Farquaad69420

· Upgrade the levels of Dumbledore, Grindelwald and Voldemort to the mountain level
Agree (3): LightMoonWizard Cropfist Lord_Farquaad69420
Disagree (5): Mr._Bambu (the level of a small town at best) Dweller_Of_Dreams InfiniteDay Jamesthetaker DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral:

· Adding a postscript to the basic wizard levels is possible a level higher with unconventional and random use of powerful spell forms such as Dancing Feet Spell or Alderton's feat level;
Agree (7): Dweller_Of_Dreams LightMoonWizard Lord_Farquaad69420 (but shouldn't be combat applicable) Cropfist Jason_Courne (creation energy) Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral (1): Jamesthetaker

· Upgrade Dumbledore's level with the addition of 7-B with a creation spell;
Agree (4): Jamesthetaker LightMoonWizard Cropfist Jason_Courne
Disagree (4): Dweller_Of_Dreams Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral (1): Lord_Farquaad69420

· Increasing the range of spells from tens to hundreds of kilometers and increasing the effect of teleportation to several thousand kilometers with the help of portkeys, distortion of space-time using Apparition;
Agree (8): Dweller_Of_Dreams Jamesthetaker LightMoonWizard Lord_Farquaad69420 Cropfist Jason_Courne Mr._Bambu (portkeys only) InfiniteDay (portkeys only) DarkDragonMedeus (portkeys only)
Disagree:
Neutral:

· Creating and manipulating pocket dimensions;
Agree (8): Dweller_Of_Dreams Jamesthetaker LightMoonWizard Lord_Farquaad69420 (but neutral if its usable for a/p) Cropfist Jason_Courne (creation feats) Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:
· The relationship between physical characteristics and magical power;
Agree (4): LightMoonWizard (probably not for the book versions) Lord_Farquaad69420 (agree on the movie, disagree on books) Cropfist
Disagree (2): Dweller_Of_Dreams Jamesthetaker
Neutral (4): Jason_Courne Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus

· Scaling spells on top of each other and controlling their power;
Agree (6): LightMoonWizard Cropfist Jason_Courne Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree (2): Dweller_Of_Dreams Lord_Farquaad69420
Neutral (2): Jamesthetaker Mr._Bambu

· Upgrading the physical characteristics of Albus to the Credence level;
Agree (1): Cropfist
Disagree (6): Dweller_Of_Dreams Jamesthetaker Lord_Farquaad69420 Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral (2): LightMoonWizard Jason_Courne

· Adding to wizards is the ability to absorb each other's life forces when spells collide;
Agree (3): LightMoonWizard Cropfist Jason_Courne (Avada Kedavra)
Disagree (2): Dweller_Of_Dreams Lord_Farquaad69420
Neutral (4): Jamesthetaker Mr._Bambu InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus

· A small upgrade of the wizards level with the help of the feat of creating a tornado that scattered a thundercloud;
Agree (3): LightMoonWizard Lord_Farquaad69420 (but only for environmental destruction) Cropfist
Disagree (4): Dweller_Of_Dreams Mr._Bambu (non-canon) InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral (2): Jamesthetaker Jason_Courne

· Scaling Obscure's Power to the rest of the Wizards;
Agree (8): Jamesthetaker LightMoonWizard Dweller_Of_Dreams (scaling of shields) Lord_Farquaad69420 Cropfist Jason_Courne (scaling of shields) Mr._Bambu (scaling with Dumbledore) InfiniteDay DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Well, I can write explanations specifically for everyone to make it easier to evaluate:

1. It has been repeatedly claimed that Voldemort is the most dangerous wizard and Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in a legendary duel.

2. Credence gets this level because in the script he showed the level of destruction of the mountain

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3. There is a spell that can lift a mountain out of the ground, bringing it down on the enemy. But since it has been demonstrated once, it cannot be used by other wizards. However, the duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald has been described as the largest and most legendary among all the others, and obviously among the duel in which the mountain shift spell was used, so the magic of Dumbledore, Grindelwald and Voldemort must be at this level or perhaps higher.

4. Feats from canonical sources were demonstrated in which wizards accidentally or unconventionally used such forms of spells that led to powerful destructive consequences, but it cannot be argued that any other wizard possesses such magic, because Harry Potter is a limited energy system.

5. Dumbledore created a copy of Berlin in the third part of Fantastic Beasts

6. Spells that extend over a huge impact radius (meteor shower, creating copies of cities, creating mists over cities, etc.) have been demonstrated many times. Teleportation allows you to distort space-time in order to instantly move on an urban scale, and portkeys enhance this effect, allowing you to instantly move across continents.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:V_f2LRDXlM4.jpg

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7. Wizards are taught an expansion spell that allows them to expand the space inside objects so that it remains unchanged from the outside (Hermione's purse, Newt's suitcase). Dumbledore and Grindelwald also created a pocket dimension where time was stopped to conduct a duel.

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The VS Battles Wiki is the world's most comprehensive and popular index of statistics and powers for characters and items from all of popular fiction.

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Extension Charms | Wizarding World

Hogwarts school trunks, like the majority of wizarding luggage, are issued with capacity enhancing or Extension Charms as standard. These spells not only increase the interior dimensions of objects, while leaving the outer ones unchanged, they also render the contents lighter.

www.wizardingworld.com

8. We see that in the verse, the power of magic in most cases depends on the power of the wizard (Hagrid ignores some spells and scatters crowds of wizards, it is indicated that he does this with his great power and at the same time uses powerful non-verbal forms of spells, although he is not considered an outstanding student, since he was excluded in the initial courses). Credence is also a good example.

9. Some spells that are tuned to Hax can have destructive power and are controlled by wizards. Expelliarmus is demonstrated as Hax, which allows you to take away a magic wand from a wizard, but if the wizard wants, then a powerful impulse can occur when the spell is struck, which either pushes the wizard against the wall (example with Snape) or destroys the entire ceiling (example with Harry). There are many such examples, but I have given the most obvious one. Moreover, magic comes from spells alone and therefore electrical devices do not work at Hogwarts, since there is a huge accumulation of magical energy there.

Spells and magic come from the same astral matter, so why not scale them on top of each other? This is perfectly legal, because wizards can create their own spells. And yes, by the way, I will give you an example below of how the energy of magic from DIFFERENT spells overlaps ordinary energy and electric fields, which does not allow the use of electronic devices, for example, at Hogwarts. I think this quite obviously hints at the fact that the energy of magic in Harry Potter is one and it is quite possible to scale it:

“All those substitutes for magic Muggles use — electricity, computers, and radar, and all those things — they all go haywire around Hogwarts, there’s too much magic in the air. No, Rita’s using magic to eavesdrop, she must be. . . . If I could just find out what it is . . . ooh, if it’s illegal, I’ll have her . . .”

10. In the duel, Albus calmly fights with Credence at kinetic speed (physically fights with him on equal terms) in such a way that shock waves spread around them, which destroy the earth and glass. At the same time, Cridens controls the Obscurus and uses it to attack. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:FANTASTIC_BEASTS_(2022)_Credence_vs_Albus_Dumbledore_fight_Scene_-_YouTube_и_еще_54_страницы_—_Личный_Microsoft_Edge_2024-02-25_02-01-13.mp4

11. In the script for the third part of Fantastic Beasts, it was indicated that when Dumbledore and Grindelwald's wands collided, they began to absorb each other's powers. A similar effect was also demonstrated by Voldemort when Ginny began communicating with him through Riddle's Diary.

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12.

13. Many wizards were in the battle against Obscurus and could influence him through attack (the Aurors blew him up in the first part of Fantastic Beasts) and when Credence cut Newt's shields with his magic.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a minor note, please slow down on making multiple content revisions for the same verse. It tends to be overwhelming for some. I may follow and look at this later though.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Just a minor note, please slow down on making multiple content revisions for the same verse. It tends to be overwhelming for some. I may follow and look at this later though.

Well, I agree with you, but in this post I have collected the most discussed topics about the controversial level of wizards and added something, because some of the feats have not been sorted out.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

As I've already stated multiple times in my own content revision thread, I disagree with most of this.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Before I share my thoughts on the OP, I would like to clarify that I only have a basic understanding of Harry Potter, so please correct me if I am wrong.

1. I'm guessing this part is trying to explain Voldermort's power and why he's below Grindelwald's tier. I do see the premiere about Voldermort being comparable to Grindelwald, but I'll let the supporters speak more on this.

2. I'm seeing two different feats for Credence, which I'll comment on each of them.

• Splitting mountain: While the script provides context for the feat, visually identifying it would be helpful in calculating the feat's actual value rather than relying on assumptions.
• Seismic earthquake: Again, visual feats take precedence over scripts, so include a clip of them. While your explanation of seismic earthquakes is correct, energy quantities vary depending on magnitude. There is also the possibility that Credence's "seismic waves" aren't real ones. Just like you said, seismic waves are caused by the natural movement of materials within the Earth, such as volcanic eruptions, landslides, avalanches, and tectonic plates shifting. Credence's earthquake does not appear to fit any of those, and it is caused by magic, which requires a completely different chart.

As for Credence scaling to, uh, everybody? You claim that because he was not demonstrating his magical power and did not attend a witchcraft school, his magic was no stronger than that of any students who practiced the basic arts. You didn't lay down any evidence or basis for this assumption, so I couldn't determine whether it was correct or not. Although, based on the two script scans, Credence's magical powers seem to be stronger than those of most wizards.

In general, I cannot see these two feats being city or mountain level. If they were calculated to be 7-B or something, I might reconsider, but this is my stance for the time being. The Credence scaling to everyone argument has no basis for it to work.

3. Dumbledore creating an exact replica of Berlin seems like creation feats. For the feat to qualify as AP, it needs to fulfill all the criteria of a universal energy system where the energy can be scaled to physical strength. Unfortunately, HP's magic falls under the Limited Energy System, which means Dumbledore's creation feat wouldn't scale to him physically. At best, I could see 7-B via Creation, but it most likely won't scale to his overall spells.

4. It appears that you have compiled a number of feats from various wizards, so I will go over each of them again.

• Mount Vesuvius eruption: It looks like a good feat, but does every single spell scale to this one specific spell that caused a mountain eruption? HP's magic system does not seem to indicate such things.
• Archibald Alderton has no visual confirmation of how he blew it up, so this is just an unqualified feat. Also, he blows up a hamlet, not a town, which is smaller than a village or a town.
• Dedalus Diggle creating shooting stars doesn't have a link to the feat.
• Neither does the tornado creation spell.

5. First, I would suggest that you put the chapter numbers as the reference, so that everyone could find it easier. Second, there are a few problems with this feat:

• How did you assume that room was a pocket dimension when there is no evidence for it? The planets in the room could just be models, not actual planets.
• If the room was an outerspace dimension, how did Luna and the crew not suffocate from the lack of oxygen? How can they see Uranus up close when the planet is not visible to naked eyes? Do they somehow travel close enough to see it or what?
• How does Luna blow Pluto at someone's face without accidentally hurting her friends from the blast too? And finally, how did the Muggles not notice Uranus being mysteriously blown up?

Altogether, the feat isn't anywhere remotely close to Tier 4. The planets aren't actually planets, the room has no evidence of it being a pocket dimension, and Luna blowing up "Pluto" definitely won't give her Tier 4 either.

To summarize, the majority of the feats mentioned are not as impressive as you might think. They are either based on assumptions, lacking scans, or just plain wrong. The feats that do work should be calculated. I'll say this once again: I'm not as knowledgeable as HP supporters, so my argument could be lacking, and it would be appreciated if they could help me clarify the substance of the OP argument.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

I agree on scaling wizards to city-mountain lvl. But the pluto luna feat in the space chamber isn't clear enough. And i'd imagine it wouldn't be too large cause it's used to study.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

2. I'm seeing two different feats for Credence, which I'll comment on each of them.

• Splitting mountain: While the script provides context for the feat, visually identifying it would be helpful in calculating the feat's actual value rather than relying on assumptions.
• Seismic earthquake: Again, visual feats take precedence over scripts, so include a clip of them. While your explanation of seismic earthquakes is correct, energy quantities vary depending on magnitude. There is also the possibility that Credence's "seismic waves" aren't real ones. Just like you said, seismic waves are caused by the natural movement of materials within the Earth, such as volcanic eruptions, landslides, avalanches, and tectonic plates shifting. Credence's earthquake does not appear to fit any of those, and it is caused by magic, which requires a completely different chart.

1) Well, maybe the movie just simplified the option of splitting the mountain and decided not to complicate the task for graphics so much, because it's still more difficult to draw a split mountain than just an explosion of a slope. And if we delve into a specifically filmed scenario, let's call it that, then we cannot 100% say that the mountain has not split. We were only shown a small fragment, just the beginning of a possible split process. Of course, I cannot say this for sure, but personally I believe the script more than the film, since Rowling worked on the script, but the creators of the film could have changed it.
2) I disagree that if seismic waves were magically created, then they are not seismic. It is quite possible that these very seismic waves were launched by Credence in the bowels of the earth, this is not specified, then it is not specified that he created them with the help of magic. Credence is just strong enough to disturb the earth. I attached a video clip where, presumably, Credence creates seismic waves (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/F...ичный_Microsoft​_Edge_2024-02-25_02-01-13.mp4)

 

[Gendolfgg1]

As for Credence scaling to, uh, everybody? You claim that because he was not demonstrating his magical power and did not attend a witchcraft school, his magic was no stronger than that of any students who practiced the basic arts. You didn't lay down any evidence or basis for this assumption, so I couldn't determine whether it was correct or not. Although, based on the two script scans, Credence's magical powers seem to be stronger than those of most wizards.

Yes, I think this is quite fair, because Credence does not stand out spiritually in any way. He is just as endowed with magical powers as other wizards. But his just had to hide it, which is why he accumulated a lot of dark energy in myself and now it is being released in large volume. Do you remember how wizards at a young age could also do magic without wands, only on emotions? The same is true, but this is another stage of uncontrolled magic (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:QHEC_XTN1zc.jpg)

 

[Gendolfgg1]

3. Dumbledore creating an exact replica of Berlin seems like creation feats. For the feat to qualify as AP, it needs to fulfill all the criteria of a universal energy system where the energy can be scaled to physical strength. Unfortunately, HP's magic falls under the Limited Energy System, which means Dumbledore's creation feat wouldn't scale to him physically. At best, I could see 7-B via Creation, but it most likely won't scale to his overall spells.

Yes, I wanted to say that Dumbledore has quite a good level of creative achievement. However, he possesses enough magic to perform such a spell.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

4. It appears that you have compiled a number of feats from various wizards, so I will go over each of them again.

• Mount Vesuvius eruption: It looks like a good feat, but does every single spell scale to this one specific spell that caused a mountain eruption? HP's magic system does not seem to indicate such things.
• Archibald Alderton has no visual confirmation of how he blew it up, so this is just an unqualified feat. Also, he blows up a hamlet, not a town, which is smaller than a village or a town.
• Dedalus Diggle creating shooting stars doesn't have a link to the feat.
• Neither does the tornado creation spell.

I put these feats in one pile for a reason, because in general they are caused randomly and unspecially, which indicates a specifically undefined level of magic. That is, the wizard can limit the level of spells himself, and if he does not do this, it will be about the same as with Vesuvius.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I said this once and I’ll say it again, use the trees to pixel calc credences mountain bust.


also disagree for most of the feats. And credence only scales to top tiers like voldy

 

[Gendolfgg1]

5. First, I would suggest that you put the chapter numbers as the reference, so that everyone could find it easier. Second, there are a few problems with this feat:

• How did you assume that room was a pocket dimension when there is no evidence for it? The planets in the room could just be models, not actual planets.
• If the room was an outerspace dimension, how did Luna and the crew not suffocate from the lack of oxygen? How can they see Uranus up close when the planet is not visible to naked eyes? Do they somehow travel close enough to see it or what?
• How does Luna blow Pluto at someone's face without accidentally hurting her friends from the blast too? And finally, how did the Muggles not notice Uranus being mysteriously blown up?

Altogether, the feat isn't anywhere remotely close to Tier 4. The planets aren't actually planets, the room has no evidence of it being a pocket dimension, and Luna blowing up "Pluto" definitely won't give her Tier 4 either.

Chapter 35.

1) Because in general, such huge celestial bodies simply cannot fit into one small room. I allowed for the possibility that these could be globes, but there is no evidence of this anywhere.

2) Magic. But there was zero gravity, that's for sure. Again, magic. The planets could simply be collected all in one pile, very close, which allowed them to be studied in detail.

3) I do not know, but they could have been just behind her or somewhere else in space where she would not have touched them.
The Muggles didn't notice because they were physical copies of planets in another dimension.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

I said this once and I’ll say it again, use the trees to pixel calc credences mountain bust.


also disagree for most of the feats. And credence only scales to top tiers like voldy

we are talking about feats from the text, not visual ones.
Why are you so sure about this? I remember that in the first part of the Fantastic Beasts Credence in the form Obscure, random Aurors blew up

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

we are talking about feats from the text, not visual ones.

Except it should be canon to the books as it’s the visual telling, made to explain what’s happening

Why are you so sure about this? I remember that in the first part of the Fantastic Beasts Credence in the form Obscure, random Aurors blew up

Any evidence obscures are = to the level of magic of that wizard? Also credence survived

 

[LightMoonWizard]

And credence only scales to top tiers like voldy

more like high tiers. Top tiers would all beat him mid difficulty or less

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Except it should be canon to the books as it’s the visual telling, made to explain what’s happening

So is the script.

Any evidence obscures are = to the level of magic of that wizard? Also credence survived

Yes, because if all wizards hide their powers in the same way, then they will also become Obscures. I agree that he survived, but nevertheless, he could not resist the Aurors and was nevertheless successfully undermined by spells. Only a small part of him survived

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Gendolfgg1

For future reference, you should compile all of your arguments into a single reply so that everyone can easily read it. It would also be easier for those who argued for or against it to follow too. Now onto the main points.

1) Well, maybe the movie just simplified the option of splitting the mountain and decided not to complicate the task for graphics so much, because it's still more difficult to draw a split mountain than just an explosion of a slope. And if we delve into a specifically filmed scenario, let's call it that, then we cannot 100% say that the mountain has not split. We were only shown a small fragment, just the beginning of a possible split process. Of course, I cannot say this for sure, but personally I believe the script more than the film, since Rowling worked on the script, but the creators of the film could have changed it.
2) I disagree that if seismic waves were magically created, then they are not seismic. It is quite possible that these very seismic waves were launched by Credence in the bowels of the earth, this is not specified, then it is not specified that he created them with the help of magic. Credence is just strong enough to disturb the earth. I attached a video clip where, presumably, Credence creates seismic waves (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:FANTASTIC_BEASTS_(2022)_Credence_vs_Albus_Dumbledore_fight_Scene_-_YouTube_и_еще_54_страницы_—_Личный_Microsoft_Edge_2024-02-25_02-01-13.mp4)

1. The script is fine and all, but what really matters is the visual feat itself. How was the mountain being split in the film? Determining this would allow people to calculate the exact amount of energy required to perform the feat.

2. You must find evidence that Credence has affected the tectonic plates, which I don't see in the script or the video. The total seismic energy can only be applied to real earthquakes, and Credence's one being magically created already disproves it. Therefore, Credence's earthquake must be calculated to find the exact energy.

Yes, I think this is quite fair, because Credence does not stand out spiritually in any way. He is just as endowed with magical powers as other wizards. But his just had to hide it, which is why he accumulated a lot of dark energy in myself and now it is being released in large volume. Do you remember how wizards at a young age could also do magic without wands, only on emotions? The same is true, but this is another stage of uncontrolled magic (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:QHEC_XTN1zc.jpg)

The keyword you used here is "stand out spiritually," which refers to Credence's lack of expertise with magic or being unschooled, but I don't believe it is sufficient proof to scale Credence to everyone. His unskilled magic was most likely caused by his inability to properly control his power, but this doesn't speak for the raw output of his overall magic. If anything, your description and how dangerous Obscurus are strengthen the notion that Credence's power is unnatural and destructive for most wizards.

One of the supporters seemed to concur that Credence is stronger than most wizards, but I will let others elaborate further on this point.

Yes, I wanted to say that Dumbledore has quite a good level of creative achievement. However, he possesses enough magic to perform such a spell.

You mean, creation feats, right? If his creation of Berlin is legit, then it's 7-B. However, you would need to prove that his spells have the same output as creating a city to scale it to his AP, which I don't see happening yet.

I put these feats in one pile for a reason, because in general they are caused randomly and unspecially, which indicates a specifically undefined level of magic. That is, the wizard can limit the level of spells himself, and if he does not do this, it will be about the same as with Vesuvius.

If these feats are achieved by an unspecified level of magic, I don't think you can scale them with anything. Your premise that wizards do not limit their abilities would make them as powerful as Vesuvius, but it lacks a solid foundation for it to work. Once again, HP's limited energy system prevents scaling spells to each other unless there is sufficient evidence that these spells work the same.

Chapter 35.

1) Because in general, such huge celestial bodies simply cannot fit into one small room. I allowed for the possibility that these could be globes, but there is no evidence of this anywhere.

2) Magic. But there was zero gravity, that's for sure. Again, magic. The planets could simply be collected all in one pile, very close, which allowed them to be studied in detail.

3) I do not know, but they could have been just behind her or somewhere else in space where she would not have touched them.
The Muggles didn't notice because they were physical copies of planets in another dimension.

Which book is it?

1. As you said yourself, celestial bodies cannot fit in such a tight space, and there is no assumption that the room is a pocket dimension. The safest assumption is that it is just a normal room that displays planetary models.

2. You do realize how big a planet is, right? If they are all piled together, they cannot be literal planets.

3. Same question as above. A planetary explosion would be hundreds of thousands of kilometers, which is impossible for Luna and her friends to avoid.

4. Another huge problem with your assumption is that Luna and her friends have somehow traveled across planets in a short amount of time, which would be a massive outlier when you consider that the whole verse didn't even reach SoL anywhere.

To recap, you're misinterpreting the feat and leading it to be exaggerated. Not to mention that the feat of reaching Tier 4 would be an outlier in the rest of the verse, given that even the greatest wizards of all time have only reached Tier 7 at most.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

The keyword you used here is "stand out spiritually," which refers to Credence's lack of expertise with magic or being unschooled, but I don't believe it is sufficient proof to scale Credence to everyone. His unskilled magic was most likely caused by his inability to properly control his power, but this doesn't speak for the raw output of his overall magic. If anything, your description and how dangerous Obscurus are strengthen the notion that Credence's power is unnatural and destructive for most wizards.

One of the supporters seemed to concur that Credence is stronger than most wizards, but I will let others elaborate further on this point.

Yes, of course, Obscures are a huge threat to other wizards, because they are the sources of ALL the magic that they have accumulated over their entire lives and now they use this magic as a destructive force, as the rest of the wizards controlled this magic and were able to distribute it correctly all their lives, obviously they will not be able to show such destructive powers, since they do not possess Obscur, but they can do it with some spells, but they will need more powerful magic to do this. For example, I am sure that Ariana Dumbledore should be comparable to Credence, because she was also an Obscure, but she died in the battle of Grindelwald, Albus and Aberforth. Like the girl Newt told me about, that she also had an Obscure, therefore, also has a more powerful level, like Credence, in front of the rest of the wizards? This is wrong. Schools of witchcraft are created in order to learn how to control magical power and direct it in the right direction.

At first glance, Credence really looks more dangerous and stronger than the rest of the wizards, because he showed great destructive power. I've already expressed my point of view as to why Obscures can unleash this power while ordinary wizards can't, but that doesn't mean they don't have enough skill to use powerful spells to create the kind of destruction that Credence showed. A simple example of Vesuvius or how a magician blew up a village. We also see the uncontrollability of magic, as shown by Credence but these are not manifestations of Obscure at all, but just ordinary spells that seemed to be harmless.

You mean, creation feats, right? If his creation of Berlin is legit, then it's 7-B. However, you would need to prove that his spells have the same output as creating a city to scale it to his AP, which I don't see happening yet.

I think it's fair to give Dumbledore a level possibly 7-B with some spells.

If these feats are achieved by an unspecified level of magic, I don't think you can scale them with anything. Your premise that wizards do not limit their abilities would make them as powerful as Vesuvius, but it lacks a solid foundation for it to work. Once again, HP's limited energy system prevents scaling spells to each other unless there is sufficient evidence that these spells work the same.

Spells and magic come from the same astral matter, so why not scale them on top of each other? This is perfectly legal, because wizards can create their own spells. And yes, by the way, I will give you an example below of how the energy of magic from DIFFERENT spells overlaps ordinary energy and electric fields, which does not allow the use of electronic devices, for example, at Hogwarts. I think this quite obviously hints at the fact that the energy of magic in Harry Potter is one and it is quite possible to scale it:

“All those substitutes for magic Muggles use — electricity, computers, and radar, and all those things — they all go haywire around Hogwarts, there’s too much magic in the air. No, Rita’s using magic to eavesdrop, she must be. . . . If I could just find out what it is . . . ooh, if it’s illegal, I’ll have her . . .”

Which book is it?

1. As you said yourself, celestial bodies cannot fit in such a tight space, and there is no assumption that the room is a pocket dimension. The safest assumption is that it is just a normal room that displays planetary models.

2. You do realize how big a planet is, right? If they are all piled together, they cannot be literal planets.

3. Same question as above. A planetary explosion would be hundreds of thousands of kilometers, which is impossible for Luna and her friends to avoid.

4. Another huge problem with your assumption is that Luna and her friends have somehow traveled across planets in a short amount of time, which would be a massive outlier when you consider that the whole verse didn't even reach SoL anywhere.

To recap, you're misinterpreting the feat and leading it to be exaggerated. Not to mention that the feat of reaching Tier 4 would be an outlier in the rest of the verse, given that even the greatest wizards of all time have only reached Tier 7 at most.

The Order of the Phoenix.

1) Then why does weightlessness exist there?

2) They may be at some safe distance from each other.

3) Well, they could have just walked out of this room at that moment.

4) And why would they travel if they just used spells and according to the text "hovered in the dark"? Well, I do not agree about the speed, because after all, the portals that wizards can create clearly reach superluminal speed with the help of their effect, with which you can move to any point in space in a second. Well, they teleport in such a way that they distort space-time.

That's why I created this post to discuss the controversial feats of wizards. Perhaps we will come to the conclusion that we will reach a level possibly higher than Tier 7 for wizards.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

1. The script is fine and all, but what really matters is the visual feat itself. How was the mountain being split in the film? Determining this would allow people to calculate the exact amount of energy required to perform the feat.

2. You must find evidence that Credence has affected the tectonic plates, which I don't see in the script or the video. The total seismic energy can only be applied to real earthquakes, and Credence's one being magically created already disproves it. Therefore, Credence's earthquake must be calculated to find the exact energy.

This is a very controversial point and it requires the opinion of more people. Still, it would be great if we created Harry Potter profiles specifically for film adaptations and books. Then maybe Credence level would have risen.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Yes, of course, Obscures are a huge threat to other wizards, because they are the sources of ALL the magic that they have accumulated over their entire lives and now they use this magic as a destructive force, as the rest of the wizards controlled this magic and were able to distribute it correctly all their lives, obviously they will not be able to show such destructive powers, since they do not possess Obscur, but they can do it with some spells, but they will need more powerful magic to do this. For example, I am sure that Ariana Dumbledore should be comparable to Credence, because she was also an Obscure, but she died in the battle of Grindelwald, Albus and Aberforth. Like the girl Newt told me about, that she also had an Obscure, therefore, also has a more powerful level, like Credence, in front of the rest of the wizards? This is wrong. Schools of witchcraft are created in order to learn how to control magical power and direct it in the right direction.

At first glance, Credence really looks more dangerous and stronger than the rest of the wizards, because he showed great destructive power. I've already expressed my point of view as to why Obscures can unleash this power while ordinary wizards can't, but that doesn't mean they don't have enough skill to use powerful spells to create the kind of destruction that Credence showed. A simple example of Vesuvius or how a magician blew up a village. We also see the uncontrollability of magic, as shown by Credence but these are not manifestations of Obscure at all, but just ordinary spells that seemed to be harmless.

The main point of this argument is that you need to prove that ordinary wizards are capable of similar destructive feats as Credence. If they require more powerful magic to perform such feats, they obviously cannot do so normally, which contradicts the reason they scaled to him in the first place.

The feat from Vesuvius or blowing up a hamlet isn't really scaleable given that they were done under an unspecified timeframe. That, and HP's spells aren't like chakra from Naruto, where creating an 8-A fire can scale to physical AP or similar fire techniques.

At this point, I think I will have other supporters explain the scaling chain, as I have yet to see concrete evidence for using Credence's feats as a baseline to scale for everyone.

I think it's fair to give Dumbledore a level possibly 7-B with some spells.

Which spells? You would need to prove that Dumbledore can fire spells that have 7-B amounts of energy, not just from creating something.

Spells and magic come from the same astral matter, so why not scale them on top of each other? This is perfectly legal, because wizards can create their own spells. And yes, by the way, I will give you an example below of how the energy of magic from DIFFERENT spells overlaps ordinary energy and electric fields, which does not allow the use of electronic devices, for example, at Hogwarts. I think this quite obviously hints at the fact that the energy of magic in Harry Potter is one and it is quite possible to scale it:

“All those substitutes for magic Muggles use — electricity, computers, and radar, and all those things — they all go haywire around Hogwarts, there’s too much magic in the air. No, Rita’s using magic to eavesdrop, she must be. . . . If I could just find out what it is . . . ooh, if it’s illegal, I’ll have her . . .”

This passage just talks about how Muggle technology doesn't work at Hogwarts, which doesn't fulfill the criteria for UES. Essentially, there should be proof that an increase in supernatural power or non-physical energy corresponds to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics and abilities.

For example, Character A, who is normally 8-A, fires a magical blast at Character B. Character B uses magic to enhance his body, allowing him to withstand that attack; therefore, Character B is also 8-A. => The magic system allows both characters to scale with one another.

The Order of the Phoenix.

1) Then why does weightlessness exist there?

2) They may be at some safe distance from each other.

3) Well, they could have just walked out of this room at that moment.

4) And why would they travel if they just used spells and according to the text "hovered in the dark"? Well, I do not agree about the speed, because after all, the portals that wizards can create clearly reach superluminal speed with the help of their effect, with which you can move to any point in space in a second. Well, they teleport in such a way that they distort space-time.

That's why I created this post to discuss the controversial feats of wizards. Perhaps we will come to the conclusion that we will reach a level possibly higher than Tier 7 for wizards.

Thank you; I will check the chapter later.

1. Magic, but just because there is no gravity does not mean it can be a whole dimension.

2 and 3. It still doesn't prove that they're actual planets.

4. That is too much for an assumption. Can you prove that they can create superluminal portals or teleports through spacetime?

Yes, all of the feats you have posted are contentious because they require extreme assumptions and the broadest interpretation. If Tier 4 is what a common wizard can do, while the strongest wizards in the verse can only reach Tier 7, I doubt the former can be used under any circumstances.

This is a very controversial point and it requires the opinion of more people. Still, it would be great if we created Harry Potter profiles specifically for film adaptations and books. Then maybe Credence level would have risen.

The people who are best suited for evaluating these points are Calc Group members since they are more knowledgeable in math than I am. You should invite them here to hear their thoughts on it.

Also, isn't it agreed that the verse canon should be split between film and book here?

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

1. Voldemort has been stated to be more powerful than Grindelwald on multiple occasions, so I agree on that part. As for Voldemort destroying the shield around Hogwarts, that's a movie only feat, so we can only use it for the movie profiles.

2. The exact wording is "break apart", which is a vague term and does not necessarily mean splitting the mountain. The seismic earthquake seems to be a figure of speech referring to the wave of cars, masonry, etc. that Credence sends towards Dumbledore. I don't think Credence's attack potency should scale to anyone either way, as he is the only obscurial we see in the series.

3. Harry Potter is a Limited Energy System. Creating a mirror version of Berlin should therefore not scale to combat applicable attack potency.

4. It is unclear how exactly the eruption was triggered, and this is a highly specific circumstance that would most likely not scale to combat applicable attack potency.

5. Archibald Alderton accidentally blew up a hamlet. Hamlets are much smaller than towns, or even villages, and I highly doubt that he could reliably recreate this explosion as it was an accident. It's also worth noting that Alderton was trying to bake a cake, which could mean that he was also using some obscure or even randomly mixed potions, too (though this is just speculation). Point being, the process is extremely unclear and ambiguous.

6. According to the American Meteor Society, visible meteors (shooting stars) generally weigh less than 1-2 grams and travel at a speed of up to 72 km/sec. This would be around Wall level for each meteor. Creating shooting stars is unimpressive in terms of attack potency.

7. The tornado is stated to have dissipated a storm cloud, not a storm, and the only damage it did was lifting a few people and trees. I don't think this would be a huge upgrade, if at all.

8. Nothing indicates that the space room was a pocket dimension, rather than simply a model of the solar system, which would make much more sense. This "feat" also requires far too much speculation and too many assumptions, and would cause a lot of logical problems and inconsistencies if it was true.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Dweller and James.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

The main point of this argument is that you need to prove that ordinary wizards are capable of similar destructive feats as Credence. If they require more powerful magic to perform such feats, they obviously cannot do so normally, which contradicts the reason they scaled to him in the first place.

The feat from Vesuvius or blowing up a hamlet isn't really scaleable given that they were done under an unspecified timeframe. That, and HP's spells aren't like chakra from Naruto, where creating an 8-A fire can scale to physical AP or similar fire techniques.

At this point, I think I will have other supporters explain the scaling chain, as I have yet to see concrete evidence for using Credence's feats as a baseline to scale for everyone.

The feat of the dark wizard who blew up Vesuvius, isn't it a perfect example of the same destruction as Credence?

I would not say that they were committed at an indefinite time. The dance spell is cast very quickly. The lava dance triggered the eruption.

Which spells? You would need to prove that Dumbledore can fire spells that have 7-B amounts of energy, not just from creating something.

I think, for example, the spell that Dumbledore demonstrated by creating a copy of the city and, again, for example, Protego Diabolica. I don't think Grindelwald is more skilled than Albus, so a more powerful form should be a level of city.

This passage just talks about how Muggle technology doesn't work at Hogwarts, which doesn't fulfill the criteria for UES. Essentially, there should be proof that an increase in supernatural power or non-physical energy corresponds to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics and abilities.

For example, Character A, who is normally 8-A, fires a magical blast at Character B. Character B uses magic to enhance his body, allowing him to withstand that attack; therefore, Character B is also 8-A. => The magic system allows both characters to scale with one another.

Isn't a clash of wands spells and a duel of energies the perfect proof?

4. That is too much for an assumption. Can you prove that they can create superluminal portals or teleports through spacetime?

Well, we can only assume that, because as I mentioned above, these feats are very controversial.

Yes, if I'm not mistaken, then in some part of the Fantastic Beasts, Newt and Jacob used a superluminal portal to move to another continent in a second. Moreover, do you remember how Dumbledore and Grindelwald created a blood spell, after which they broke into another dimension, where time was stopped for the rest of the world? And the very essence of teleportation in Harry Potter is the distortion of space-time. If you're interested, I can throw in evidence from movies and books.

Also, isn't it agreed that the verse canon should be split between film and book here?

I read this post, but I didn't think this idea was in development. If that's the case, then that's fine, but I think we need to figure out the feats I've cited in this post.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

2. The exact wording is "break apart", which is a vague term and does not necessarily mean splitting the mountain. The seismic earthquake seems to be a figure of speech referring to the wave of cars, masonry, etc. that Credence sends towards Dumbledore. I don't think Credence's attack potency should scale to anyone either way, as he is the only obscurial we see in the series.

Perhaps I remotely agree with you, but specifically in this case it clearly means splitting into parts. Nevertheless, if Creedens did not divide the mountain in half, but, for example, only a small part, then it is definitely obvious that the level is still higher than in the film.

3. Harry Potter is a Limited Energy System. Creating a mirror version of Berlin should therefore not scale to combat applicable attack potency.

We have already decided that this is more of a creative feat. But nevertheless, I am counting on the level of the city in another aspect.

4. It is unclear how exactly the eruption was triggered, and this is a highly specific circumstance that would most likely not scale to combat applicable attack potency.

Do you know how the dancing feet spell works? I think the lava dance triggered the volcanic eruption, but that's not for sure.

5. Archibald Alderton accidentally blew up a hamlet. Hamlets are much smaller than towns, or even villages, and I highly doubt that he could reliably recreate this explosion as it was an accident. It's also worth noting that Alderton was trying to bake a cake, which could mean that he was also using some obscure or even randomly mixed potions, too (though this is just speculation). Point being, the process is extremely unclear and ambiguous.

Yes, it is accidents that demonstrate the high level of wizards. And this is one of the main topics of my post, that, they say, can we scale wizards to undefined levels, at least to the accidents shown, given that they can control the power of spells?

6. According to the American Meteor Society, visible meteors (shooting stars) generally weigh less than 1-2 grams and travel at a speed of up to 72 km/sec. This would be around Wall level for each meteor. Creating shooting stars is unimpressive in terms of attack potency.

but nevertheless, it's a great feat of attack radius.

7. The tornado is stated to have dissipated a storm cloud, not a storm, and the only damage it did was lifting a few people and trees. I don't think this would be a huge upgrade, if at all.

I remember in the Half-Blood Prince, I think the Death Eaters created a thunderstorm in the city. Can it be scaled?

8. Nothing indicates that the space room was a pocket dimension, rather than simply a model of the solar system, which would make much more sense. This "feat" also requires far too much speculation and too many assumptions, and would cause a lot of logical problems and inconsistencies if it was true.

I agree with you rather than not, but still an interesting case that requires analysis. There is still no mention in the text that these are just models of planets. But it's also strange if these are real planets.

1. Voldemort has been stated to be more powerful than Grindelwald on multiple occasions, so I agree on that part. As for Voldemort destroying the shield around Hogwarts, that's a movie only feat, so we can only use it for the movie profiles.

Yes, I have already understood, but I do not think that Voldemort's level should not change, because even if we take into account the nuances that we have listed, the Death Eaters should be stronger than Credence, who was blown up by the Aurors, because average fights show that they are equal.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The feat of the dark wizard who blew up Vesuvius, isn't it a perfect example of the same destruction as Credence?

I would not say that they were committed at an indefinite time. The dance spell is cast very quickly. The lava dance triggered the eruption.

How did the spells trigger the eruption? Did he shake the lava, or did he make an earthquake to trigger it? Because of its ambiguous nature, this type of feat requires careful examination.

I think, for example, the spell that Dumbledore demonstrated by creating a copy of the city and, again, for example, Protego Diabolica. I don't think Grindelwald is more skilled than Albus, so a more powerful form should be a level of city.

Protego Diabolica was calculated at High 8-C because the fire was going to burn the city down over time.

Isn't a clash of wands spells and a duel of energies the perfect proof?

It would fulfill one of the criteria, but you need to remember that clashing magics with each other isn't the only proof. When they channel that magical source, it must have some effect on their physical stats.

For example, Character A is a 9-B at base; channeling higher magical power allows him to become an 8-C, and he explicitly states that this increases his strength.

Well, we can only assume that, because as I mentioned above, these feats are very controversial.

Yes, if I'm not mistaken, then in some part of the Fantastic Beasts, Newt and Jacob used a superluminal portal to move to another continent in a second. Moreover, do you remember how Dumbledore and Grindelwald created a blood spell, after which they broke into another dimension, where time was stopped for the rest of the world? And the very essence of teleportation in Harry Potter is the distortion of space-time. If you're interested, I can throw in evidence from movies and books.

Yes, having evidence to evaluate would make things easier.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

Perhaps I remotely agree with you, but specifically in this case it clearly means splitting into parts. Nevertheless, if Creedens did not divide the mountain in half, but, for example, only a small part, then it is definitely obvious that the level is still higher than in the film.

It could also mean destroying only a small part of the mountain, much like how the filmmakers interpreted it in the movie. I think it's too ambiguous to use for an upgrade.

We have already decided that this is more of a creative feat. But nevertheless, I am counting on the level of the city in another aspect.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here? My point was that as a creation feat, it wouldn't scale to attack potency due to Harry Potter being a limited energy system.

Do you know how the dancing feet spell works? I think the lava dance triggered the volcanic eruption, but that's not for sure.

Yes, I know how the dancing feet spell works. However, we don't know enough about the exact process that triggered the eruption. Did Innocenti cause the lava inside the volcano to dance? Or the volcano itself? Was it a chain reaction? How much time passed between Innocenti casting the spell and the volcano erupting?

Yes, it is accidents that demonstrate the high level of wizards. And this is one of the main topics of my post, that, they say, can we scale wizards to undefined levels, at least to the accidents shown, given that they can control the power of spells?

That wizards control the power of spells seems to be an assumption on your part, not really founded on any meaningful evidence. Much as with the eruption of Mount Vesuvius, we don't know enough about the mechanics behind these accidents to say with certainty that they scale to attack potency.

but nevertheless, it's a great feat of attack radius.

Yes, but irrelevant for attack potency.

I remember in the Half-Blood Prince, I think the Death Eaters created a thunderstorm in the city. Can it be scaled?

That was no hurricane. So no, it can't be scaled.

I agree with you rather than not, but still an interesting case that requires analysis. There is still no mention in the text that these are just models of planets. But it's also strange if these are real planets.

There is no direct mention of this, but it would be much more logical and consistent to assume that it is indeed a model.

Yes, I have already understood, but I do not think that Voldemort's level should not change, because even if we take into account the nuances that we have listed, the Death Eaters should be stronger than Credence, who was blown up by the Aurors, because average fights show that they are equal.

Credence is absolutely stronger than any death eater or auror, at least in raw power. That a small army of aurors was able to destroy him by bombarding him with spells over time does not imply that an individual auror is stronger than him, rather, I'd say it implies the opposite. I still maintain that Credence's attack potency shouldn't scale to anyone, because he is the only obscurial we see in the series.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

How did the spells trigger the eruption? Did he shake the lava, or did he make an earthquake to trigger it? Because of its ambiguous nature, this type of feat requires careful examination.

I agree with you, but it is already known in advance that this is a more powerful level than wizards currently have.

Protego Diabolica was calculated at High 8-C because the fire was going to burn the city down over time.

Yes, but my point of view is that Dumbledore should have a more powerful form of this spell, because he is many times stronger than Grindelwald.

It would fulfill one of the criteria, but you need to remember that clashing magics with each other isn't the only proof. When they channel that magical source, it must have some effect on their physical stats.

For example, Character A is a 9-B at base; channeling higher magical power allows him to become an 8-C, and he explicitly states that this increases his strength.

I do not know why astral energy should be associated with physical energy, but I can assume that this is directly related to the case that Hagrid, for example, can easily ignore some spells by increasing his rage or malice. This was perfectly shown when Hagrid and McGonagall were attacked by Umbridge's servants, and perhaps in the finale of the Half-Blood Prince. Due to his great physical strength, his magical potential can increase.

Yes, having evidence to evaluate would make things easier.

1) Newt and Jacob use the portal to move to another country in a second.
2) Dumbledore is fighting Grindelwald in another dimension.
3) Teleportation distorts space-time.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

The movies show about the same thing, but it was easier for me to find evidence from books.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

It could also mean destroying only a small part of the mountain, much like how the filmmakers interpreted it in the movie. I think it's too ambiguous to use for an upgrade.

I have not seen this word used in any other meaning than to completely split. In the film, Cridens only blows up part of the mountain, but, for example, does not completely break through it, as it should be according to the scenario, where the mountain CLEARLY falls apart. This is not the case in the film.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here? My point was that as a creation feat, it wouldn't scale to attack potency due to Harry Potter being a limited energy system.

I don't mean the level of the city in the form of an attack.

Yes, I know how the dancing feet spell works. However, we don't know enough about the exact process that triggered the eruption. Did Innocenti cause the lava inside the volcano to dance? Or the volcano itself? Was it a chain reaction? How much time passed between Innocenti casting the spell and the volcano erupting?

I have already answered James, but nevertheless I will say that this is clearly a higher level than wizards currently have.

That wizards control the power of spells seems to be an assumption on your part, not really founded on any meaningful evidence. Much as with the eruption of Mount Vesuvius, we don't know enough about the mechanics behind these accidents to say with certainty that they scale to attack potency.

If the wizards had not controlled the power of the spells, then when the dance spell was used on Ron in the Order of the Phoenix, he would most likely have died over time, because earlier this spell caused a volcano to explode. Or, for example, when Credence fights against Dumbledore, huge destructive waves do not spread into space at the level of a city block. When, as before, Cridens destroyed the mountainside. But I still think Albus absorbed this energy with a wand, but nevertheless, there are a bunch of examples of spell control.

That was no hurricane. So no, it can't be scaled.

Oh, yes, I forgot about that instruction.

Credence is absolutely stronger than any death eater or auror, at least in raw power. That a small army of aurors was able to destroy him by bombarding him with spells over time does not imply that an individual auror is stronger than him, rather, I'd say it implies the opposite. I still maintain that Credence's attack potency shouldn't scale to anyone, because he is the only obscurial we see in the series.

But nevertheless, Credence was not able to resist the crowd of Aurors, although at that moment he was furious. I'm still sure that Voldemort is many times stronger than him. Have you forgotten the Obscures that you mentioned earlier in the series? Ariana Dumbledore, the girl Newt was talking about, come on, there's a personal Obscure in his suitcase (let's call it that ). Of course, we do not know their exploits, but nevertheless, they exist, and they died very touchingly and not to say that they possessed such distinctive power over other wizards, because they simply did not have sufficient skill in spells and control of magical power.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I agree with you, but it is already known in advance that this is a more powerful level than wizards currently have.

Although the feat appears to be powerful at a glance, it cannot be scaled to other wizards due to unspecific circumstances, as stated by Dweller and myself above.

I believe you should look for feats that are well-defined in the "average wizards-level" category, such as Hogwarts teachers and students, or any characters who are relevant to the main stories.

Yes, but my point of view is that Dumbledore should have a more powerful form of this spell, because he is many times stronger than Grindelwald.

Dumbledore and Grindelwald are currently Low 7-C+, so scaling them up to a High 8-C feat will make no difference. Even if Dumbledore is stronger than Grindelwald, he would simply scale higher than his current tier and no more.

I do not know why astral energy should be associated with physical energy, but I can assume that this is directly related to the case that Hagrid, for example, can easily ignore some spells by increasing his rage or malice. This was perfectly shown when Hagrid and McGonagall were attacked by Umbridge's servants, and perhaps in the finale of the Half-Blood Prince. Due to his great physical strength, his magical potential can increase.

I do not recall Hagrid ever being proficient in magic, and it was stated that his natural physical strength makes him stronger than most wizards.

1) Newt and Jacob use the portal to move to another country in a second.
2) Dumbledore is fighting Grindelwald in another dimension.
3) Teleportation distorts space-time.

Thanks.

1. They have intercontinental portals, which is cool, but it does not seem like something they could use in a normal fight.

2. This probably could give pocket-dimension manipulation or some sort of spatial manipulation.

3. Teleportation via spacetime manipulation? I guess it's fine, but you should specify what its exact limitations are (how far can they teleport, does it consume their energy, can they use it in a straight fight, etc.)

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

I have not seen this word used in any other meaning than to completely split. In the film, Cridens only blows up part of the mountain, but, for example, does not completely break through it, as it should be according to the scenario, where the mountain CLEARLY falls apart. This is not the case in the film.

You can break something apart in other ways than splitting it in two, and something can technically be broken apart by just disconnecting small parts of it.

I don't mean the level of the city in the form of an attack.

Then it isn't really relevant.

I have already answered James, but nevertheless I will say that this is clearly a higher level than wizards currently have.

Pretty much the same as James said.

If the wizards had not controlled the power of the spells, then when the dance spell was used on Ron in the Order of the Phoenix, he would most likely have died over time, because earlier this spell caused a volcano to explode.

Order of the Phoenix was written long before this feat existed, and the intention then was clearly that it just forces you to dance, without any damage being done to you. That the dancing feet spell could trigger a volcano eruption might simply be due to a chain reaction, or something like that, which would make more sense as the spell was clearly intended to be non-lethal. The spell could also be more effect based, meaning that it just causes the target dance, regardless of if it is a person or lava, but doesn't really have an attack potency in itself. And by the way it was Neville, not Ron, that the spell was used on.

Or, for example, when Credence fights against Dumbledore, huge destructive waves do not spread into space at the level of a city block. When, as before, Cridens destroyed the mountainside. But I still think Albus absorbed this energy with a wand, but nevertheless, there are a bunch of examples of spell control.

The "huge destructive waves" are of unspecified size. What examples?

Oh, yes, I forgot about that instruction.

No problem!

But nevertheless, Credence was not able to resist the crowd of Aurors, although at that moment he was furious. I'm still sure that Voldemort is many times stronger than him. Have you forgotten the Obscures that you mentioned earlier in the series? Ariana Dumbledore, the girl Newt was talking about, come on, there's a personal Obscure in his suitcase (let's call it that ). Of course, we do not know their exploits, but nevertheless, they exist, and they died very touchingly and not to say that they possessed such distinctive power over other wizards, because they simply did not have sufficient skill in spells and control of magical power.

Yeah, I should probably have worded it differently. I meant that Credence is the only obscurial we see directly, actually performing any feats, and that his attack potency shouldn't scale to anyone who doesn't have an obscurus.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Although the feat appears to be powerful at a glance, it cannot be scaled to other wizards due to unspecific circumstances, as stated by Dweller and myself above.

I believe you should look for feats that are well-defined in the "average wizards-level" category, such as Hogwarts teachers and students, or any characters who are relevant to the main stories.

Then I think we need to add to the basic level of wizards a prescription that it is possible to level up using some spells of uncontrollable consequences.
I don't think there are any undiscovered feats of wizards left now, although there may be some indirect sources, for example, games, but I don't understand them.

Dumbledore and Grindelwald are currently Low 7-C+, so scaling them up to a High 8-C feat will make no difference. Even if Dumbledore is stronger than Grindelwald, he would simply scale higher than his current tier and no more.

But Dumbledore, unlike Grindelwald, has the prerequisites for a city level, although I can't be sure that this will be enough to upgrade.

I do not recall Hagrid ever being proficient in magic, and it was stated that his natural physical strength makes him stronger than most wizards.

Yes, he definitely has magic, because he wasn't expelled from School right away. In the very first book, it was shown how he transfigures Dudley's pigtail. And in the Deathly Hallows, he sent lightning bolts at spiders. I can send you a fragment from the battles where Hagrid participated, perhaps then you can accept some conclusions.

1. They have intercontinental portals, which is cool, but it does not seem like something they could use in a normal fight.

2. This probably could give pocket-dimension manipulation or some sort of spatial manipulation.

3. Teleportation via spacetime manipulation? I guess it's fine, but you should specify what its exact limitations are (how far can they teleport, does it consume their energy, can they use it in a straight fight, etc.)

1) You're right
2) I agree with you.
3) I think I'll do it a little later, but I can write in advance that ordinary teleportation is clearly lagging behind the portals in distance. For example, you can teleport through cities, but you will not be able to travel through countries: you will need a portal. It does not consume energy, as they do it mentally. What do you mean by using this in combat? Yes, they definitely know how to teleport quickly, at least that's what Grindelwald and Dumbledore showed in the movie: they dodged spell flashes very quickly by teleporting away from them. In the Deathly Hallows, Ron lost a piece of skin because a Death Eater clung to him during teleportation. This is called a cleft (I may be mistaken in the exact name). Therefore, I think that it can be used to some extent in combat, for example, to deprive the enemy of a piece of the body.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

You can break something apart in other ways than splitting it in two, and something can technically be broken apart by just disconnecting small parts of it.

It is possible, but nevertheless, in any case, it will take more energy to break a mountain into pieces if it is simply undermined. Although it will require an accurate calculation to be sure of this.

Then it isn't really relevant.

Perhaps, but this is at least the radius of the spell's effect and the scale of the magic.

Order of the Phoenix was written long before this feat existed, and the intention then was clearly that it just forces you to dance, without any damage being done to you. That the dancing feet spell could trigger a volcano eruption might simply be due to a chain reaction, or something like that, which would make more sense as the spell was clearly intended to be non-lethal. The spell could also be more effect based, meaning that it just causes the target dance, regardless of if it is a person or lava, but doesn't really have an attack potency in itself. And by the way it was Neville, not Ron, that the spell was used on.

I don't think this spell released as much energy as the spell that was used on Ron (Neville, Ron, what's the difference? ). Therefore, I do not think that even a chain reaction would require so little energy, since in any case this process took place inside the volcano. We need more opinions and more calculated options as to how this happened, and perhaps we will come to the conclusion that we will add to the basic level of wizards possibly higher with some spells.

The "huge destructive waves" are of unspecified size. What examples?

I just mean that they didn't exist, which is very strange, because with such destructive power at the Credence, they had to stand out into space, creating destruction around. But it didn't happen. I do not want to describe them all, but I will give the most famous ones for me:
1) Remember how Voldemort and Harry Potter destroyed the ceiling at Hogwarts when their spell beams collided? Previously, they could not boast of such power, but Harry wanted to escape from Voldemort by destroying the ceiling and he succeeded;
2) when Dumbledore creates a firestorm in the Cave, saving Harry from zombies. He himself could control the power of fire and direct it in different directions;
3) The flame of Grindelwald. In my opinion, this is a great example of spell control, because initially the flame was intended to simply restrain the Obscurantists and keep them away from themselves. And when the plan went down the drain, Grindelwald decided to burn Paris, strengthening the spell.

Yeah, I should probably have worded it differently. I meant that Credence is the only obscurial we see directly, actually performing any feats, and that his attack potency shouldn't scale to anyone who doesn't have an obscurus.

That explains. but I still don't understand why you separate Obscure from other wizards.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Then I think we need to add to the basic level of wizards a prescription that it is possible to level up using some spells of uncontrollable consequences.
I don't think there are any undiscovered feats of wizards left now, although there may be some indirect sources, for example, games, but I don't understand them.

I don't know how "uncontrollable spells" could affect the raw output of wizard spells. I think I will leave it up to you and Dweller to debate that part.

But Dumbledore, unlike Grindelwald, has the prerequisites for a city level, although I can't be sure that this will be enough to upgrade.

We just debated that Dumbledore's city-level creation isn't applicable for combat.

It would only give him something like this: 9-B physically. At least High 8-C with regular spells, Low 7-C with more powerful spells, 7-B with creation spell

Yes, he definitely has magic, because he wasn't expelled from School right away. In the very first book, it was shown how he transfigures Dudley's pigtail. And in the Deathly Hallows, he sent lightning bolts at spiders. I can send you a fragment from the battles where Hagrid participated, perhaps then you can accept some conclusions.

I never said that he couldn't use magic; I said that Hagrid isn't skilled at magic. But I would appreciate it if you could send those instances where he uses magic so that everyone can evaluate them.

 

[Dweller_Of_Dreams]

It is possible, but nevertheless, in any case, it will take more energy to break a mountain into pieces if it is simply undermined. Although it will require an accurate calculation to be sure of this.

I don't really think we can calc this, as we don't know enough about the specifics. The feat is too ambiguous, which was really the point I was trying to make in my last response.

Perhaps, but this is at least the radius of the spell's effect and the scale of the magic.

I agree on this. We've also seen Grindelwald cover Paris in banners, for example.

I don't think this spell released as much energy as the spell that was used on Ron (Neville, Ron, what's the difference? ). Therefore, I do not think that even a chain reaction would require so little energy, since in any case this process took place inside the volcano. We need more opinions and more calculated options as to how this happened, and perhaps we will come to the conclusion that we will add to the basic level of wizards possibly higher with some spells.

We could potentially add something like "The verse generally ranges from Wall level to Large Building level, though there have been instances of accidental or unconventional use of magic reaching [whatever tier Alderton's feat is] or even [whatever tier Innocenti's feat is]." to the Wizarding World verse page. I would be fine with that. However, I think it's quite ambiguous how exactly this feat was achieved, so I don't think it's a good idea to scale it to wizards' attack potency in general.

1) Remember how Voldemort and Harry Potter destroyed the ceiling at Hogwarts when their spell beams collided? Previously, they could not boast of such power, but Harry wanted to escape from Voldemort by destroying the ceiling and he succeeded;

This is a movie only feat, and we have seen more impressive feats by Voldemort. I don't really see how you get the impression that they were holding back earlier.

2) when Dumbledore creates a firestorm in the Cave, saving Harry from zombies. He himself could control the power of fire and direct it in different directions;
3) The flame of Grindelwald. In my opinion, this is a great example of spell control, because initially the flame was intended to simply restrain the Obscurantists and keep them away from themselves. And when the plan went down the drain, Grindelwald decided to burn Paris, strengthening the spell.

These are more convincing, but don't you think this could be more related to the nature of these spells? For example, you can't control how much you're going to body-bind someone with Petrificus Totalus, which seems to be much more similar to the Dancing Feet spell (if we're still discussing that) than fire spells like these.

That explains. but I still don't understand why you separate Obscure from other wizards.

An obscurus is magic that has gotten completely out of control because the wizard/witch was trying to suppress it. It's not a spell in the traditional sense, it is pure magic focused only on destruction. Even Grindelwald seems to think that Credence has a better chance at overwhelming and killing Dumbledore than he himself has, based purely on Credence's raw destructive power, as he has shown very little skill. Credence is also portrayed as being extraordinarily powerful, even for an obscurial. Everything taken into account, I don't really think we can compare normal magic users with an obscurial, since magic seems to be so much more destructive when out of control.

 

[LightMoonWizard]

1. They have intercontinental portals, which is cool, but it does not seem like something they could use in a normal fight.

I think they can if they had the portkey prepared. Lally uses it to escape from germany aurors in a fight and theseus uses it to escape from a manticore. And creation of portkey is also quick(dumbledore creates one with a broken head of a statue in ootp).

 

[LightMoonWizard]

An obscurus is magic that has gotten completely out of control because the wizard/witch was trying to suppress it. It's not a spell in the traditional sense, it is pure magic focused only on destruction. Even Grindelwald seems to think that Credence has a better chance at overwhelming and killing Dumbledore than he himself has, based purely on Credence's raw destructive power, as he has shown very little skill. Credence is also portrayed as being extraordinarily powerful, even for an obscurial. Everything taken into account, I don't really think we can compare normal magic users with an obscurial, since magic seems to be so much more destructive when out of control.

But we've seen his destructive raw power interact with non obscurial wizards. Dumbledore was able to block and repel credences rage attack, Gunnar was able to block credence's rage attack twice with a single shield before he disapparated while newts shield was effortlessly teared away by credence. And the way i see it and the hp wiki does, obscurus are only as powerful as the obscurials magical potential is. It's just that magical power lvl they were born with being displayed as a aggressive and destructive way due to the obscurus's nature instead of being controlled and channeled through spells. I don't see why obscurus's shouldn't be compared to other wizards just because it's out of control and is in a destructive style.

The size and might of an Obscurus depended on the innate power of its host; the more powerful an Obscurial, the more powerful their Obscurus. hp wiki

 

[Gendolfgg1]

But we've seen his destructive raw power interact with non obscurial wizards. Dumbledore was able to block and repel credences rage attack, Gunnar was able to block credence's rage attack twice with a single shield before he disapparated while newts shield was effortlessly teared away by credence. And the way i see it and the hp wiki does, obscurus are only as powerful as the obscurials magical potential is. It's just that magical power lvl they were born with being displayed as a aggressive and destructive way due to the obscurus's nature instead of being controlled and channeled through spells. I don't see why obscurus's shouldn't be compared to other wizards just because it's out of control and is in a destructive style.

Yes, I think you are more fair in this matter. That's about what I think.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

This passage just talks about how Muggle technology doesn't work at Hogwarts, which doesn't fulfill the criteria for UES. Essentially, there should be proof that an increase in supernatural power or non-physical energy corresponds to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics and abilities.

I've thought about your answer, and I think I have a counter argument. If the spells differed in destructive power, then probably one magical energy would overpower the other, as for example in the situation with electricity. But this is not happening. Apparently, magical energy has a kind of physical character of ordinary energy and it does not differ from other energy in any properties. We can see a similar parallel in the real world, because kinetic energy and potential energy are the same energy, but in different forms, but nevertheless, one energy can outweigh the other. For example, the energy of a flying bullet (kinetic energy will be much greater and potential energy can simply be ignored). I think that wizards use publicly available magical energy and, by pronouncing spells (verbally or nonverbally), form a certain splash from this energy, with which they can cause certain outcomes to the material world.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

It would only give him something like this: 9-B physically. At least High 8-C with regular spells, Low 7-C with more powerful spells, 7-B with creation spell

I think I agree with you. But we need to discuss the moment with Creedens' feat more closely, maybe with his help we can raise the basic level of wizards.

I never said that he couldn't use magic; I said that Hagrid isn't skilled at magic. But I would appreciate it if you could send those instances where he uses magic so that everyone can evaluate them.

In fact, it wasn't said anywhere that Hagrid was bad at magic. He even practices it outside of school, which hints at his curiosity. I think he's about Newt's level or stronger with extra strength. Nevertheless, he successfully masters non-verbal magic (and only skilled wizards can master it), remember how he lights a fire with his umbrella and creates a pig's tail for Dudley. He also created his own spell, with which he guided boats with freshmen to a set location automatically.

here are the moments when Hagrid fought against other wizards:

1) Hagrid’s door had burst open and by the light flooding out of the cabin they saw him quite clearly, a massive figure roaring and brandishing his fists, surrounded by six people, all of whom, judging by the tiny threads of red light they were casting in his direction, seemed to be attempting to Stun him. “No!” cried Hermione. “My dear!” said Professor Tofty in a scandalized voice. “This is an examination!” But nobody was paying the slightest attention to their star charts anymore: Jets of red light were still flying beside Hagrid’s cabin, yet somehow they seemed to be bouncing off him. He was still upright and still, as far as Harry could see, fighting. Cries and yells echoed across the grounds; a man yelled, “Be reasonable, Hagrid!” and Hagrid roared, “Reasonable be damned, yeh won’ take me like this, Dawlish!”

2) And now he saw the vast outline of Hagrid, illuminated by the light of the crescent moon revealed suddenly behind clouds; the blond Death Eater was aiming curse after curse at the gamekeeper; but Hagrid’s immense strength and the toughened skin he had inherited from his giantess mother seemed to be protecting him.

3) “How do we get out?” yelled Ron over all the screaming, but before either Harry or Hermione could answer they were bowled aside: Hagrid had come thundering down the stairs, brandishing his flowery pink umbrella.“Don’t hurt ’em, don’t hurt ’em!” he yelled. “HAGRID, NO!” Harry forgot everything else: He sprinted out from under the Cloak, running bent double to avoid the curses illuminating the whole hall. “HAGRID, COME BACK!” But he was not even halfway to Hagrid when he saw it happen: Hagrid vanished amongst the spiders, and with a great scurrying, a foul swarming movement, they retreated under the onslaught of spells, Hagrid buried in their midst.