Misconception about the Overvoid

[NHTkenshin2]

A couple months ago, a thread was made that removed the Overvoids non-duality, which is obviously weird considering the general attribute that described the Overvoid was that it is a non-dual void. This thread is not to say that the other thread was wrong, partially at least, it's clearing up a misconception regarding the Overvoid.

Eitherway, after some talks with @Xearsay, we kinda realized something pretty important regarding the Overvoid, the general idea is: what the book of Limbo (as well as other sources) describe as the Overvoid, is most likely Dax Novu. As for why? strap in, cuz this do be long.

To explain this, let's go back to the first time we were introduced to this origin story in DC, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond.

Here, the origin story begins by establishing that the Flaw (everything the overvoid is not) started existing on it's perfection, then the Overvoid begins to examine said Flaw, then here, the Overvoid extends a probe that “secures contact” with the Flaw, and then discovers stories and narratives within it, with the Overvoid itself being the white pagespace of the comicbook, it is essentially exterior to all stories, with Merryman describing the origin of the Flaw to be the story with all the other stories in it, which leads us to the next scan, which tells us how the Overvoid essentially has no idea of the very concept of what a story is, then tells us that because of that, the probe “withdrawed” and the Overvoid was contaminated by the endless play of narrative.

In the Multiversity Guidebook, we get more details into that event here, where it is said that the probe described prior was actually Dax Novu, Mandrakk prior to getting infected, and it also describes in the scan after, where Dax is described as having been contaminated by the endless play of narrative.

To summarize, the Overvoid is a perfect void that notices a Flaw on itself, extends a probe to examine what this Flaw is, then gets "contaminated" by the narratives of the Flaw.

Immediately, we can very clearly see how Final Crisis attributes Dax Novu to be the Overvoids consciousness in these scans, considering when Dax Novu was contaminated, the Overvoid was also described as being infected, when in fact, Dax would've been the one to see what exactly the Flaw was with the aforementioned “Monitor Examination,” and due to that fact, the actual examination down here was conducted by Dax Novu himself, which then means that only he would've been Infected, but the comic tells us that his infection is equated to the Overvoids.

To move further with the following, let's first establish the Overvoids only attribute, its undefinability. The Overvoid is repeatedly described as beyond thought, within DC, that practically extends all things that can be imagined, and all that cannot be imagined, known as the “dimensional superstructure”. This is also explicitly shown in Final Crisis with the book of Limbo, the book essentially represents the whole infinite monkey theorem, where a monkey randomly typing on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will type any possible given text, including the full works of Shakespeare at random, and by the time of Final Crisis, that book was essentially the book that contained an infinite amount of pages, a book that contains all possible books.

Point is, this book is essentially the story of all stories as Merryman describes it, and even it describes The Overvoid as an “immense awareness without limit or definition”. With that set in stone, its easy to just apply that same logic right back at the book of Limbo itself, as that it is simply impossible for the book to capture the actual full picture of the Overvoid, if literally all possible character strings cannot, that is not to say that the Void described in the book isn't the Overvoid, but is to say that it simply does not actually fully understand the full unknowable essence of the Overvoid as the white page, making it, a partially unreliable narrator. And for that very reason, to even attempt to make a statement/thought on the Overvoid, you would've limited it all the same.

Put that in mind and keep it for the next bit. But for now, let's move on to the Overvoids non-duality. There is somewhere around 7 separate instances where the Overvoid is called a non-dual void, four in comics, and three in word of gods.

Perhaps one of the more explicit scans for this is right here, in Green Lantern (2019) #1, the Overvoid is just blatantly described as a “non-dual omni-awareness” now, fret not, these words are not just random mumbo jumbo but actually philosophically mean something. I'll try to use this school of thought [Hegelianism] only to explain it better a little better because of this being a prominent concept in it, but to summarize, Hegelianism essentially posits that reality and idea go through the “dialectical process”, a triadic movement of thesis (a statement about a thing), antithesis (a contradiction to that statement) and a synthesis (a resolution of the contradictions in a higher-level understanding)

A “non-dual awareness”, would be like the final synthesis to pretty much everything, it would transcend all the contradictions that make a subject a subject, and an object an object, transcending divisionality as a whole, in the sense that it would be an awareness, that knows no differentiation from anything, not even dualties, and thus, an awareness that is non-dual. This does indeed exist in the Overvoid, considering the Overvoid, is indeed, a non-dual mind that resolves all possible contradictions.

In Final Crisis: Secret Files, the Source (which we accept to be the Overvoid, even though the reality is more nuanced, I digress), is referred to as the ultimate concept, that contains all concepts (“life and anti-life, evil and good, up and down, in and out, black and white, all at once”), as well as their opposites.

In Doom Patrol vol.1, issue #41, the story introduces a Tower of Babel type concept. Here, a metaphorical "tower" is described as originating from Earth and reaching the heights of the heavens. Here, it is described that advancing through its levels symbolizes an ascent of consciousness toward divinity. In the subsequent scan, it is suggested that Judge Rock has perceived a path beyond the very notion of duality itself, and finally, here, the tower concept signifies a symbolic desire to surpass the literal concept of duality and attain unity with a fundamental state of pure consciousness, I.e. the Overvoid.

Furthermore, in Kid Eternity vol.2 #3, this is more expanded upon with it being stated that all things emanated down from a “pure being” that is without definition. With that emanation being considered falling down through the strata of consciousness, as a form of fall from “non-duality to duality” (I.e. the non-dual awareness we talked about earlier), with it being described here how this "tower" described prior can be climbed, reaching back into pure being.

The Overvoid itself dissolves all contradictions into its unity.

Grant Morrison - “This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.” However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God.” (Grant Morrison Arthurmag interview)

This sentiment is shared again here, when Grant refers to the Overvoid as the conscious ground of being that underlies everything, including all contradictions.

Grant Morrison - “It’s kind of like in Buddhism where there is this pure consciousness that underlies everything, and you can call it god, you can call it the void. It contains everything — all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility. Just like the page of a comic.” (Multiversity Wired Interview)

The idea here being that throughout all things, differentiation exists through contradictions, a dog is not the color blue, because there are inherent contradictions between the subject and the predicate, for something that has no contradictions between anything, all divisions lose meaning, and by extension, all dualities also lose meaning, so the in-comic “non-dual” statements also support the WoGs above, but eitherway, we already do completely understand that to this higher level consciousness, the Flaw (all contradictions) is essentially just one big contradiction.

And if the concept described above is maybe a little confusing, no worries, this illustration by yours truly might help explain it better:

Which then brings us all the way back into the beginning of this thread, the book of Limbo interpreted Mandrakks contamination to also mean that the Overvoid itself also got contaminated, and also interpreted the Overvoid to view the Flaw as a contradiction, something that obviously does not add up when we look at all the other scans, and by extension, the book also had to view the Overvoid prior to the probe as just the probe's consciousness.

This is all explained in the final issue of Final Crisis: Superman Beyond, in which Superman, after reading the book of Limbo, and ascending into a more meaningful level of existence to pilot an armor of pure thought (another prominent Hegelian concept), calls Mandrakk the “part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Flaw”, following it with “isn't it obvious?”

The Overvoid itself is a literal mind, not that it is a brain connected to a body, no, it literally is a super-mind that contains everything within itself, being a part of that Super-mind that got “contaminated” immediately implies that Dax Novu was no more, no less, just the part of the Overvoids consciousness (thoughts and feelings specifically) that took issue with the Flaw being put upon this “perfection.” Something that we can already make out without the above, because again, the Overvoid resolves all thoughts overall, obviously by extension including thoughts about its own self.

As seen in the Arthurmag interview above, where Grant says that a sentient being might confuse an encounter with the Overvoid as an encounter with God, but considering the Overvoid would resolve thoughts regarding itself as well, this would be no more then just another resolved thought within it (I.e. the Overvoid is God). So the book of Limbo, eitherway, failed to really capture the full essence of the Overvoid, but what it was able to capture, was Mandrakk.

As if this wasn't already clear enough, in Supergods, Grant explains this further here, by explaining how Mandrakk is at the end of day, generated by the Overvoid as a “what if?” question where the white page of a comic takes issue with the material put on it, with the scan actually saying that Mandrakk is the cosmic vampire that was generated out of the Overvoid as a form of “fighting back” against that material, but again, we can verifiably confirm how Mandrakk wasn't particularly the original probe, that would've been Dax Novu, and how he was reborn as Mandrakk, with Dax Novu being the part of the Overvoids consciousness that took issue with said material.

That is not to say that I think Mandrakk is literally like a second, lower Overvoid, it is to say that the book of Limbo captured a book that is not as “perfect” as the Overvoid, because a statement such as "the Overvoid is the immaculate perfection" would lose its meaning when applied to the Overvoid, simply because if "The Overvoid" and "immaculate perfection" essentially refer to the same thing when applied to a oneness, you haven't conveyed any meaningful information, or at least, information that actually defines the full scope of the Overvoid. With that limited view, this limited scope of the Overvoid will be assumed to be the “part of monitor that felt contaminated”. And we should probably start looking at Overvoid statements in general in that same fashion, that to describe the Overvoid, you would've essentially failed to describe it off the jump. Here is another illustration that should explain it better:

But at the end of the day, what is the Overvoid, then? It is the white page that the comic is written, the White page is a non-dual awareness that has no “contradiction” within it, that is to say, to state that the Flaw is a “contradiction” to it as the book says, is false, because the state that the Overvoid exists in, has no contradictions, so the Flaw doesn't particularly even “exist” within it, as I will get to in a second.

So to just summarize the above, give Non-duality (Aspect 2) back to the Overvoid, because it has never even directly interacted with the Flaw, or is it even possible for the Overvoid to view the Flaw as anything, because the Overvoid resolves all things back into a unity, Mandrakk was simply that part of the mind that is the Overvoid, that felt as if it was contaminated by the Flaw, so if the Flaw is a “contradiction”, the Overvoids awareness has already “resolved” it.

What level of non-duality, then?
Let's get something out of the way, the idea of the initial Flaw seen in Final Crisis was not particularly that it was literally everything that the Overvoid could not be, in the essence that if the Overvoid is completely perfect without contradiction or duality, the Flaw would be all contradiction, and duality, and but specifically, all possibilities that arise out of them, as seen in the second quote above.

This again, is not to say that the Flaw is inherently separate from the Overvoid, considering how Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol explain it, to arise to the consciousness of non-dual pure being, going from dual reality into the non-dual, you'd essentially just be striping down your reality, mind and spirit down back into the Void, as in, the Overvoid exists everywhere, simply at the deepest level.

So all dualites, all opposites, and contradictions at the deepest, resolved level, are all the Overvoid. But more importantly, the Flaw, represents these dualities, and as we have discussed prior, the Flaw is pretty much no more than a “resolved issue” in the eyes of the Overvoid, even more importantly, the Overvoid itself is a mind, again, if we were to look at the metaphors here, the Overvoid would be the super-mind, and everything else would be within that mind, a figment of its imagination, just how the Monitors (who, prior to becoming narrative based entities, oversaw the entire flaw) are explicitly also figments of its imagination.

It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

So to summarize, duality as a whole is literally a figment of its imagination, if viewing dual systems as a whole (as well as the very integral property that makes dualites: contradictions) as fiction isn't qualitative superiority, I do not know what is (it is.)

And if this wasn't clear already, the Overvoid is most definitely not just "alien" to duality, but very explicitly transcendent to the very concept of what a duality is, as seen in the Doom Patrol scans.

So not only do I propose just Nonduality (Nature: 1 Aspect 2) to the Overvoid, I propose Nonduality (Nature 2, Aspect 2). I also think this could possibly act as a separate key to either Mandrakk, or the Overvoid (or both) being pretty much just the imperfect version of the Overvoid, the one that is seen in the story with the Flaw.

Justifications

Transduality (Nature 2, Aspect 2; The Overvoid, as described in various instances in both comics and statements from creators, is depicted as a "non-dual omni-awareness." This concept aligns with the idea of a "non-dual awareness" as the final “synthesis” that knows no contradictions, making it an awareness that knows no differentiation between subjects and objects, encompassing a oneness, with the rise of the conscious mind from the notion of duality into the Overvoid, where duality itself is transcended, is described as a tower. The Source, believed to be synonymous with the Overvoid, is described as the ultimate concept containing all concepts and their opposites simultaneously. This is further expanded on by it being stated that everything emanates from a "pure being" without definition, falling from "non-duality to duality" through strata of consciousness. In essence, the Overvoid represents a state where differentiation loses meaning, and all dualities cease to exist within a higher level of consciousness.

The following either becomes justification for a separate key, given to either Mandrakk or the Overvoid (or both), or just a note under the Overvoids page explaining what we talked about above.

The Overvoid is described as a void without limits or definition, having noticed “the flaw” being put on it, it being a non-dual awareness, a part of its consciousness, Mandrakk, felt contaminated by the Flaw and generated itself to fit into the Flaw to dry it out of narrative.

The actual Overvoid itself is devoid of all contradictions and thoughts, as an entirely incomprehensible void, and by extension, with the Book of Limbo itself referring to it as “without limits or definition”, the book would essentially fail to capture the full essence of the Overvoid regardless. The actual full Overvoid is a consciousness devoid of all thoughts and contradictions, which then would make the Overvoid, as described through the limited scope of the book of Limbo, an entity who does resolve all contradictions, with the exception of the Flaw.

To get a better explanation of this, go to this thread [link to the thread].

Note: this likely gives some form of Transduality (Type 1) to that limited scope of the Overvoid if it ever becomes a separate key, as that it's pretty much described to be as “limitless”, with the Flaw in particular being the only unresolved contradiction or duality in its eyes.

Agrees: Firestorm808 (agrees with non-duality, uncertain as to which aspect), Alonik (agrees, has a different perspective on Mandrakk), Xearsay (agrees with everything)

Neutral:

Disagrees: Deagonx, Elizio33 (Agrees with Deagonx, although is open to the Overvoids non-duality), VeryGoofyToddler (agrees with non-duality, disagrees with most premises)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Do you want two keys? Prior and Post Flaw?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Also, I don't agree with Dax part at all. It extended a probe that became its own. Still infinitesimal to the Overvoid, and it's specific corruption lay with the haunting of Dax Novu. Concepts do not affect the Overvoid being “non-dual” so stories aren't a problem for it. It being unknown to it simply is of limited knowledge.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @Elizio33

 

[Deagonx]

At the time the CRT was conducted there was no "Nonduality" ability, it was just Transduality, which the Overvoid was determined to not have based on the information in the story about it. Nonduality Type 1 is fine for the Overvoid, but I don't agree with making an additional key or with assuming that the information about the Overvoid in the comics is false or anything along those lines.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

At the time the CRT was conducted there was no "Nonduality" ability, it was just Transduality, which the Overvoid was determined to not have based on the information in the story about it. Nonduality Type 1 is fine for the Overvoid, but I don't agree with making an additional key or with assuming that the information about the Overvoid in the comics is false or anything along those lines.

No, the CRT was delayed after the nonduality revision passed, and I successfully argued that it didn't qualify for the new ability either.

 

[Deagonx]

No, the CRT was delayed after the nonduality revision passed, and I successfully argued that it didn't qualify for the new ability either.

Ahh, I see. I apologize for the confusion. Can you link me to that?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ahh, I see. I apologize for the confusion. Can you link me to that?

Remove Transduality from Monitor-Mind The Overvoid

As the name of this thread suggests, Transduality should be removed from the Monitor-Mind The Overvoid page. Currently, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid has types 2 of transduality in its profile, but there are some issues with that. This is taken directly from the Transduality page of the wiki...

vsbattles.com

 

[Deagonx]

I recall this now. Thank you.

In that case, I agree with what we determined in that thread, the reasoning was sound.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't think Transduality shouldn't be added. The story and interview where Grant is free to say whatever he wants are not one-to-one.

You could argue for different types of duality but Transduality is hard to see. Those Doom Patrol and Kid Eternity scans are not concrete or very direct. Overvoid itself was very specific to Final Crisis. The only way to link it is by the premise of a certain character described as those traits. For Grant, it's God, and Overvoid is meant to be allegorical for Void = God except he doesn't mention this within the story. Like how Overvoid is the blank canvas is never mentioned directly, we just imply from the interview which isn't source material regardless of whether that was his intention or not.

Also, some of the wording is very flowery, also some scans are just not necessary or at all making whatever tier is necessary beyond Type 2 non-duality much less transduality.

If you can convince the mods then good. This is an ok thread with some agreeable points but for the majority of the parts, I don’t. My vote doesn't count in the long run anyways if it makes you feel better.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Nonduality Type 1 is fine for the Overvoid, but I don't agree with making an additional key or with assuming that the information about the Overvoid in the comics is false or anything along those lines.

The bolded part is a misinterpretation of what I was trying to convey, I've made it pretty clear that the concept described in that specific section of the post is how thinking of an entity beyond thought is an immediate paradox/contradictory statement and puts a limited understanding of that entity within the parameters of thought.

This is simply that logic applied back on the book of Limbo and the Cave. So simply enough, the book of Limbo and the Cave limited whatever they understood of the Overvoid to thought, that much is pretty clear, and is explained through a scenario Grant Morrison makes in the Arthurmag interview where the Overvoid is also described as resolving all thoughts, including ones about itself. The argument cannot be made that this is only an interview, considering the basics of what Grant was describing is very clearly seen in the comics as well as seen in the thread.

The story and interview where Grant is free to say whatever he wants are not one-to-one.

There is a grand total of three interviews used in this thread, and with that being said, I've made sure that the story itself also conveys that information.

You could argue for different types of duality but Transduality is hard to see.

The Overvoid is the state of consciousness that transcends the concept of duality.

To achieve transduality you'd need qualitative superiority over dualities, to surpass what the very idea of dualities is as a whole, is to have a quality beyond the qualities that these dualities work on, and by extension, to even assume that there exists a duality between something and the Overvoid for example, is to assume a category error, and is obviously fallacious.

---

Eitherway, I definitely think people should also discuss the Mandrakk stuff, as that it serves as a clear basis for why the reasons used in the thread that removed the Overvoids non-duality cannot possibly be applied to the Overvoid eitherway.

 

[Xearsay]

Those Doom Patrol and Kid Eternity scans are not concrete or very direct. Overvoid itself was very specific to Final Crisis. The only way to link it is by the premise of a certain character described as those traits. For Grant, it's God, and Overvoid is meant to be allegorical for Void = God except he doesn't mention this within the story.

I’m sorry I just don’t get this type of response. What basis would we have to assume that the pure, non-dual, ground of being that Grant wrote about in Doom Patrol and Kid Eternity, is a different character from the pure, non-dual, ground of being Grant wrote about in Final Crisis? Not only would it not even make sense for to assume these are separate characters in the context of Grants stories, but we’re also gonna disregard the author statements from Grant that we’ve proven align with what’s in the stories just cause…?

Also, some of the wording is very flowery, also some scans are just not necessary or at all making whatever tier is necessary beyond Type 2 non-duality much less transduality.

No it’s not flowery. We have a monumental amount of evidence and well structured reasonings to support what we’re getting at, so calling this flowery would be a massive hand wave.

 

[Deagonx]

What basis would we have to assume that the pure, non-dual, ground of being that Grant wrote about in Doom Patrol and Kid Eternity, is a different character from the pure, non-dual, ground of being Grant wrote about in Final Crisis?

This has already been discussed at length. Sharing motifs in different stories decades apart do not mean they're the same character. The onus isn't on him to disprove it, it's on you to prove, not assume, that the Overvoid actually appeared decades before Final Crisis.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’m sorry I just don’t get this type of response. What basis would we have to assume that the pure, non-dual, ground of being that Grant wrote about in Doom Patrol and Kid Eternity, is a different character from the pure, non-dual, ground of being Grant wrote about in Final Crisis? Not only would it not even make sense for to assume these are separate characters in the context of Grants stories, but we’re also gonna disregard the author statements from Grant that we’ve proven align with what’s in the stories just cause…?

What was written in Final Crisis is almost its own thing since we can't just assume what description fits whatever entity was being described as the Overvoid. This thread would need to prove the theory that he had intended to be Overvoid within years of the story-making. The Overvoid fits the premise of the storytelling and nature of Final Crisis but it will certainly did not to older stories or hinted at it. If Final Crisis had been the first story then with the others coming later and that would have been sufficient even if they didn't mention it by name.

If this is all a theory then it should stay as such. Since the whole thread is meant to dictate what is, which is nothing more than a theory that could work. However, it's very not very direct and there too many prempoutous notions, especially with the time gaps, and trying to connect loose ends with wording to fit the theory rather than actually knowing if the story was meant to illicit an early non-direct appearance of the Overvoid. I'm not convinced by this at all.

No it’s not flowery. We have a monumental amount of evidence and well structured reasonings to support what we’re getting at, so calling this flowery would be a massive hand wave.

It's certainly well-structured. There is monumental evidence pertaining to each storytelling of what is to the “Unknown.” Connecting it together to assume this was Grant's intention or that the story is directly saying this was the Overvoid is the problem. Nothing short of trying to view it as something flowery would be quite bizarre since this heavily relies on descriptions fitting each other and ignoring context and setting.

It's way too theoretical and there is just an undisclosed middle to assume any of this to be 100% factual.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

There is a grand total of three interviews used in this thread, and with that being said, I've made sure that the story itself also conveys that information.

I'm not berating you for that. I simply pointed out how fallible an interview can be, much less if it doesn't really strengthen your arguments.

The Overvoid is the state of consciousness that transcends the concept of duality.

I don't know where the stories could imply this. I see it as just outside unless you're equating being outside a the system as transcendent. Essentially, size is useless to prove this point as objective.

To achieve transduality you'd need qualitative superiority over dualities, to surpass what the very idea of dualities is as a whole, is to have a quality beyond the qualities that these dualities work on, and by extension, to even assume that there exists a duality between something and the Overvoid for example, is to assume a category error, and is obviously fallacious.

It doesn't even know or create any concept as something foreign to it. It looks at those dualities and concepts from the outside, so I would argue that really doesn't prove transdual.

I refer to it being beyond simply the location rather than anything. Perfection refers to the state before Flaw not the state above the Flaw. So please call the random fallacy with no actual objective data other than disagreeing with another opinion.

---

Eitherway, I definitely think people should also discuss the Mandrakk stuff, as that it serves as a clear basis for why the reasons used in the thread that removed the Overvoids non-duality cannot possibly be applied to the Overvoid eitherway.

I don't disagree with non-dual but I don't see transdual or a need for extra keys. I don't think Mandrakk is the basis to guarantee anything since he really doesn't matter to the Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

I’m just gonna reply to both of you in one swoop.

This isn’t about “sharing motifs” or whatever. God in Grant Morrisons Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol is supposed to functionally be the ground of pure being, beyond definition, where all contradictions are resolved into unity. And we’d see the same thing in Final Crisis. Meaning it’s now Goofy’s job to disprove that this is the same character throughout Grants stories.

Furthermore saying that it would be “orempetous”(I know you meant to spell impetuous but Jesus Christ) for us to claim that Grant intended his stories to be connected like this is a point that falls entirely flat. Not only do we have proof that Grant regards the Overvoid as the non-dual, God consciousness and ground of being just like he expressed in Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol, but Grant has consistently regarded his stories as all being connected. Also, I’m not gonna further entertain your hand wave comments calling this a “theory” while simultaneously providing no evidence that could disprove what we’re talking about.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’m just gonna reply to both of you in one swoop.

This isn’t about “sharing motifs” or whatever. God in Grant Morrisons Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol is supposed to functionally be the ground of pure being, beyond definition, where all contradictions are resolved into unity. And we’d see the same thing in Final Crisis. Meaning it’s now Goofy’s job to disprove that this is the same character throughout Grants stories.

Furthermore saying that it would be “orempetous”(I know you meant to spell impetuous but Jesus Christ) for us to claim that Grant intended his stories to be connected like this is a point that falls entirely flat. Not only do we have proof that Grant regards the Overvoid as the non-dual, God consciousness and ground of being just like he expressed in Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol, but Grant has consistently regarded his stories as all being connected. Also, I’m not gonna further entertain your hand wave comments calling this a “theory” while simultaneously providing no evidence that could disprove what we’re talking about.

You've made no difference in your claim. The burden of proof falls still on you to even prove this to be true rather than randomly saying “he said it's all connected” or “the descriptions fit.” That was pretty much what was being questioned because we don't know the intention, so I don't where the notion everything is connected is supposed to have a meaning or add that Overvoid clearly is that. We're back-peddling at this point because you clearly have a way of saying the same thing and asking for proof when you haven't done it when asked.

You also added to the description to fit your narrative better. If you can exactly reference Overvoid to be that unified “being.” Then please, do so. Given before the Flaw, the Overvoid wasn't even conscious rather just existed as a state rather than being(not unlike the Darkness). That perfection was already hindered so it can never just be Void of perfection to the extent it should have been, if not for the Flaw.

All I see with dissolving into unity refers simply to going to non-existence/nothing to become nothing. You don't become “greater” or more “powerful” in a profound meaning like a different state of existence. I see simply as going outside and just dissolving away from the existence that you just left. There's nothing that the Void is supposed to be in correlation to Flaw as this thing that simply is so vast and beyond that isn't just referring to size and location in reference to the Flaw/Multiverse which is pretty much the only inverse explanation we get of it from the stories.

 

[Deagonx]

This isn’t about “sharing motifs” or whatever. God in Grant Morrisons Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol is supposed to functionally be the ground of pure being, beyond definition, where all contradictions are resolved into unity. And we’d see the same thing in Final Crisis. Meaning it’s now Goofy’s job to disprove that this is the same character throughout Grants stories.

Those... are literally the motifs I am referring to. And, no, those shared attributes don't make them the same character nor do they relieve you of the burden of proof, anymore than the many similarities between Superman and Omni Man make them the same character.

 

[Xearsay]

Those... are literally the motifs I am referring to. And, no, those shared attributes don't make them the same character nor do they relieve you of the burden of proof, anymore than the many similarities between Superman and Omni Man make them the same character.

Are you for real? To compare 3 instances mentioning the same thing, that is treated the same way, from the same verse, written by the same writer who considers it to be same character, with… Omni and Superman who aren’t even in the same verse and don’t share the same appearance, personality, or really anything else besides certain powers, is a gross false analogy and definitely misinterprets what I’m saying here.

You've made no difference in your claim. The burden of proof falls still on you to even prove this to be true rather than randomly saying “he said it's all connected” or “the descriptions fit.” That was pretty much what was being questioned because we don't know the intention, so I don't where the notion everything is connected is supposed to have a meaning or add that Overvoid clearly is that. We're back-peddling at this point because you clearly have a way of saying the same thing and asking for proof when you haven't done it when asked.

No offense, but I can’t really make sense of most your comment. It’s pretty incoherent. I digress, I brought up Grants statements because you said that we don’t know Grants intention when we in fact do know Grants intention. To Grant the Ovevroid is “God” in the sense of a non-dual ground of being, just like what’s expressed in his Kid Eternity story and Doom Patrol stories.

And again, to address the last portion of your comment, the OP completely disproves what you’re saying and you’ve presented no evidence against it. You actually haven’t even directly quoted any of the arguments made in the OP and replied to it. And until you do so, we’re gonna go back to ignoring your comments in this thread.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you for real? To compare 3 instances mentioning the same thing, that is treated the same way, from the same verse, written by the same writer who considers it to be same character

The point is, since you didn't seem to understand the point of the analogy, is that there are plenty of characters throughout fiction who have overlapping qualities, that doesn't make them identical.

Though, this has already devolved into the format of the last time you attempted to make this argument, where you just assert your opinion that theyre the same over and over again.

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Emirp sumitpo

What do you think about this?

 

[Alonik]

I agree with everything about Overvoid, apart from the point that the book of limbo can't fully conceive the Overvoid, and this "Mandrakk is that part of Overvoid consciousness".

A couple months ago, a thread was made that removed the Overvoids non-duality, which is obviously weird considering the general attribute that described the Overvoid was that it is a non-dual void. This thread is not to say that the other thread was wrong, partially at least, it's clearing up a misconception regarding the Overvoid.

Eitherway, after some talks with @Xearsay, we kinda realized something pretty important regarding the Overvoid, the general idea is: what the book of Limbo (as well as other sources) describe as the Overvoid, is most likely Dax Novu. As for why? strap in, cuz this do be long.

To explain this, let's go back to the first time we were introduced to this origin story in DC, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond.

Here, the origin story begins by establishing that the Flaw (everything the overvoid is not) started existing on it's perfection, then the Overvoid begins to examine said Flaw, then here, the Overvoid extends a probe that “secures contact” with the Flaw, and then discovers stories and narratives within it, with the Overvoid itself being the white pagespace of the comicbook, it is essentially exterior to all stories, with Merryman describing the origin of the Flaw to be the story with all the other stories in it, which leads us to the next scan, which tells us how the Overvoid essentially has no idea of the very concept of what a story is, then tells us that because of that, the probe “withdrawed” and the Overvoid was contaminated by the endless play of narrative.

In the Multiversity Guidebook, we get more details into that event here, where it is said that the probe described prior was actually Dax Novu, Mandrakk prior to getting infected, and it also describes in the scan after, where Dax is described as having been contaminated by the endless play of narrative.

To summarize, the Overvoid is a perfect void that notices a Flaw on itself, extends a probe to examine what this Flaw is, then gets "contaminated" by the narratives of the Flaw.

Immediately, we can very clearly see how Final Crisis attributes Dax Novu to be the Overvoids consciousness in these scans, considering when Dax Novu was contaminated, the Overvoid was also described as being infected, when in fact, Dax would've been the one to see what exactly the Flaw was with the aforementioned “Monitor Examination,” and due to that fact, the actual examination down here was conducted by Dax Novu himself, which then means that only he would've been Infected, but the comic tells us that his infection is equated to the Overvoids.

To move further with the following, let's first establish the Overvoids only attribute, its undefinability. The Overvoid is repeatedly described as beyond thought, within DC, that practically extends all things that can be imagined, and all that cannot be imagined, known as the “dimensional superstructure”. This is also explicitly shown in Final Crisis with the book of Limbo, the book essentially represents the whole infinite monkey theorem, where a monkey randomly typing on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will type any possible given text, including the full works of Shakespeare at random, and by the time of Final Crisis, that book was essentially the book that contained an infinite amount of pages, a book that contains all possible books.

Which then brings us all the way back into the beginning of this thread, the book of Limbo interpreted Mandrakks contamination to also mean that the Overvoid itself also got contaminated, and also interpreted the Overvoid to view the Flaw as a contradiction, something that obviously does not add up when we look at all the other scans, and by extension, the book also had to view the Overvoid prior to the probe as just the probe's consciousness.

This is all explained in the final issue of Final Crisis: Superman Beyond, in which Superman, after reading the book of Limbo, and ascending into a more meaningful level of existence to pilot an armor of pure thought (another prominent Hegelian concept), calls Mandrakk the “part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Flaw”, following it with “isn't it obvious?”

The Overvoid itself is a literal mind, not that it is a brain connected to a body, no, it literally is a super-mind that contains everything within itself, being a part of that Super-mind that got “contaminated” immediately implies that Dax Novu was no more, no less, just the part of the Overvoids consciousness (thoughts and feelings specifically) that took issue with the Flaw being put upon this “perfection.” Something that we can already make out without the above, because again, the Overvoid resolves all thoughts overall, obviously by extension including thoughts about its own self.

As seen in the Arthurmag interview above, where Grant says that a sentient being might confuse an encounter with the Overvoid as an encounter with God, but considering the Overvoid would resolve thoughts regarding itself as well, this would be no more then just another resolved thought within it (I.e. the Overvoid is God). So the book of Limbo, eitherway, failed to really capture the full essence of the Overvoid, but what it was able to capture, was Mandrakk.

As if this wasn't already clear enough, in Supergods, Grant explains this further here, by explaining how Mandrakk is at the end of day, generated by the Overvoid as a “what if?” question where the white page of a comic takes issue with the material put on it, with the scan actually saying that Mandrakk is the cosmic vampire that was generated out of the Overvoid as a form of “fighting back” against that material, but again, we can verifiably confirm how Mandrakk wasn't particularly the original probe, that would've been Dax Novu, and how he was reborn as Mandrakk, with Dax Novu being the part of the Overvoids consciousness that took issue with said material.

That is not to say that I think Mandrakk is literally like a second, lower Overvoid, it is to say that the book of Limbo captured a book that is not as “perfect” as the Overvoid, because a statement such as "the Overvoid is the immaculate perfection" would lose its meaning when applied to the Overvoid, simply because if "The Overvoid" and "immaculate perfection" essentially refer to the same thing when applied to a oneness, you haven't conveyed any meaningful information, or at least, information that actually defines the full scope of the Overvoid. With that limited view, this limited scope of the Overvoid will be assumed to be the “part of monitor that felt contaminated”. And we should probably start looking at Overvoid statements in general in that same fashion, that to describe the Overvoid, you would've essentially failed to describe it off the jump. Here is another illustration that should explain it better:

I just had to point this out, because these long arguments about Mandrakk being part of the Over-void are always a hook when we have, with all due respect, @Xearsay related to Final Crisis, something that i and @Deagonx we have already debunked in this thread: DC Comics - Mandrakk Rewrite

Then, here we go again:

First and foremost what we just have to interpret that in Final Crisis is that Grant Morrison didn't have a great idea of different names, so he just said that there were two monitors. The first monitor, and then the Monitor who was Dax Novu, not that both are the same because there's no difference in Final Crisis, Grant Morrison just didn't make it clear to the reader.

We only need to look at Multiversity: Guidebook for that:

A flaw that "is" Everything perfection is not. Defining its relationship to the flaw, perfection names itself Monitor-Mind, the Overvoid. Of the Over-void is Monitor born

Monitor-Mind = Over-void.
Monitor = Dax Novu.

With these two names we can attribute the events and happenings of the Book of Limbo.

• When we have mentions of something perfect and beyond the history of the Multiverse, the "monitor" referred to is the Monitor-Mind, not the Monitor (Dax Novu).
• When we have "monitor" being affected, it's referring to the Monitor (Dax Novu), not the Monitor-Mind (Over-Void).

I'll even quote something very interesting that you yourself opened up:

Eitherway, after some talks with @Xearsay, we kinda realized something pretty important regarding the Overvoid, the general idea is: what the book of Limbo (as well as other sources) describe as the Overvoid, is most likely Dax Novu. As for why? strap in, cuz this do be long.

I very much agree with this, we have to take the part of that text that Morrison talks about Dax Novu and separate it from the parts that are about Over-void, but when we come across this hook:

Which then brings us all the way back into the beginning of this thread, the book of Limbo interpreted Mandrakks contamination to also mean that the Overvoid itself also got contaminated, and also interpreted the Overvoid to view the Flaw as a contradiction, something that obviously does not add up when we look at all the other scans, and by extension, the book also had to view the Overvoid prior to the probe as just the probe's consciousness.

This is all explained in the final issue of Final Crisis: Superman Beyond, in which Superman, after reading the book of Limbo, and ascending into a more meaningful level of existence to pilot an armor of pure thought (another prominent Hegelian concept), calls Mandrakk the “part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Flaw”, following it with “isn't it obvious?”

So to be clear here, I think it's a misinterpretation to think that Dax Novu was actually this probe. When the narrative claims this:

• Monitor extends a probe!... Designed to blend with its surroudings, the probe secures contact!.. ... With something monitor has never befored encountered! Inside the Flaw--A Chaotic froth of Events.

This is just talking about how Dax Novu sent a probe, and that ensured contact, with something, then he (Monitor) had never encountered, and inside the flaw he saw the stories and their chaotic soup.

Why isn't the "monitor" in question here the Over-void sending the Dax Novu as a "probe"? Because it is said that Dax Novu selflessly enters the flaw and is contanminated. So the probe here was never "Dax Novu", but something sent by him. The next page even says:

• with no precedent for the concept "story"!.. ...No understanding of the damage "story" might do to an immense awareness without limits or definition!.. ...Monitor has zero defenses! Blinded, split in two, the probe withdraws!

It's a bit confusing because there's a comma in "the probe withdraws", but in the first three dialogue box, the monitor (Dax Novu) doesn't understand how "history" could harm something that isn't him, so that's why there is a "might do TO an immense awareness without limits or definition".

So the part that says "blinded, split in two, the probe withdraws" means that we only have two different events. The first is Dax Novu, the Monitor, being contaminated (becoming blinded and split), and then his probe just leaves. Why? Because in Multiversity: Guidebook blatantly claims that:

Who selflessly enters the flaw and is contaminated--and split in two.

Dax Novu was contaminated and split in two, so that part of the "probe withdraws" isn't about him, but the "blinded and split" part is about him. So when it's said that the Mandrakk is "part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Flaw", it's not talking about the Monitor (Over-void), it's talking about the Monitor (Dax Novu), because Dax Novu was contaminated-- and split in two.

And that's exactly the "contaminated" part of the monitor (Dax Novu), being divided by the stories:

• What had been a universe becomes multiverse. Divided, deranged, Novu catalogues and numbers each variation on a basic theme, each alternative twist. But Novu looks to close, too deep. Infected by activity and process, by the endless play of matter and narrative---Novu is blinded, corrupted by the Flaw's lightning dazzle.

Anyway: Mandrakk isn't a part of the Over-Void, Mandrakk is the part of Dax Novu that felt contaminated, he is the result of split that happened when Dax Novu was taken by surprise by the infinite narratives of the universe that has become a multiverse.

The book of Limbo itself isn't wrong, it just recounts events without as clear and chronological order as was presented in Multiversity: Guidebook. Still, either the most reasonable interpretation for this is that there are times that the Book of Limbo just calls Dax Novu "Monitor" (i mean he is that Monitor, but not the Over-void one).
So instead of Mandrakk being part of the Over-Void that felt contaminated, Mandrakk is the part of Dax Novu who felt that was contaminated, hence "part" as in "split in two"

​

 

[Xearsay]

Mandrakk is indeed Dax Novu. Grant would like directly confirm it in WoG and also write it in the comics.

We only need to look at Multiversity: Guidebook for that: A flaw that "is" Everything perfection is not. Defining its relationship to the flaw, perfection names itself Monitor-Mind, the Overvoid. Of the Over-void is Monitor born
Monitor-Mind = Over-void.
Monitor = Dax Novu.

Also just to point this out, you cut off part of the text here. In the full text you can clearly see that this is talking about Mar Novu who is the Monitor opposite to the Anti Monitor.
“Of the Over-void is Monitor born and Anti Monitor, which is the opposite, the conflict generator, the story machine.“

There’s no point for us to address the rest of your extrapolation here because the basis for Dax Novu not being Mandrakk just doesn’t exist and is swiftly refuted by Grant and the comics.

 

[Alonik]

There’s no point for us to address the rest of your extrapolation here because the basis for Dax Novu not being Mandrakk just doesn’t exist and is swiftly refuted by Grant and the comics.

And at no point did I say that Mandrakk is not Dax Novu, I openly said that Mandrakk is the part of Dax Novu that felt contaminated.
You did the same Strawman that you made up in the other thread, if you don't want to respond properly to what I said, that's fine, just don't pretend that I said "X" for you to answer that "X" instead of actually i really said.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

I'll check it out later.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

To argue that an author such as Grant Morrison was "referring to different characters" in these two separate instances in reference to the exact same concept is most definitely on your end to prove, not Xearsays, nor me.

Worry not, interestingly enough, the Overvoid is an entity that such an argument of DC chronology simply does not even apply to, particularly in Morrison's stories.

In Final Crisis, the Overvoid is depicted as an awareness devoid of the concept of stories. It explicitly sees their nature as contradictory, establishing a clear relationship: the Overvoid is a thing where the notion of stories do not exist, and is contradictory.

The origin of the Flaw is explained in Final Crisis as one story that "has all the others [stories] in it" this is also seen when we see Dax Novu being infected, as that he is described as having been contaminated by the endless interplay of matter and narrative. Notably, we gain insight into what Mandrakk saw while looking into "endless narrative," the comic describes how this interplay of narrative was essentially the "beginning of all things", then that statement is immediately followed by a comprehensive history of the DC Multiverse beginning with Barry's discovery of the Multiverse in the Flash of Two Worlds, DC Comics' first ever showing of the concept of the Multiverse, symbolizing that this is the "beginning of all things" narratively, rather then just a simple creation origin story.

Grant Morrison expands on this in an interview, describing the Overvoid as the foundation where the comic is written from the reader's perspective. He emphasizes how readers can flip through the comics from 1938 to 2022, with the Overvoid being the white page that all of these comics are drawn on. And here, as if it wasn't clear enough, the Overvoid is explicitly characterized as a timeless Supermind, which when applied to such an entity alien to the concept of stories, would be a clear and obvious reference to how the Overvoid is quite literally non-linear to the real life timeline order of DC Comics.

Considering these established concepts, the assertion that "the non-dual consciousness introduced by an author is not the same as... the non-dual consciousness introduced by the exact same author" is completely on your ends to prove.

1. Explain why an entity, made by Grant to be beyond the linearity of all stories, would be constrained by the chronological order of stories by the assumption that the Overvoid was only limited to Final Crisis and above, even when limiting this logic just to Grants stories only.
2. Additionally, justify why instances describing the exact same concept should be separated merely because they now have a name assigned to them.

 

[Xearsay]

I openly said that Mandrakk is the part of Dax Novu that felt contaminated.

Which is covered by my comment. Saying Mandrakk is a probe sent by Dax Novu and that he’s only a part of Dax Novu, is directly refuted by the comic evidence I posted and WoG. Dax Novu was the probe that was sent and Mandrakk is a vampire form that Dax Novu transformed into.

 

[Firestorm808]

I do believe that the Overvoid has some degree of Non-Duality. Whether this degree fits the types this site categorizes is up for debate. What should define a "Type" of this abstract concept is not my area of expertise.

 

[Alonik]

To argue that an author such as Grant Morrison was "referring to different characters" in these two separate instances in reference to the exact same concept is most definitely on your end to prove, not Xearsays, nor me.

To quote yourself:

we kinda realized something pretty important regarding the Overvoid, the general idea is: what the book of Limbo (as well as other sources) describe as the Overvoid, is most likely Dax Novu.

This argument is only convenient for you and him when it leaves room for another character to be upgraded, isn't it?

Worry not, interestingly enough, the Overvoid is an entity that such an argument of DC chronology simply does not even apply to, particularly in Morrison's stories.
In Final Crisis, the Overvoid is depicted as an awareness devoid of the concept of stories. It explicitly sees their nature as contradictory, establishing a clear relationship: the Overvoid is a thing where the notion of stories do not exist, and is contradictory.
The origin of the Flaw is explained in Final Crisis as one story that "has all the others [stories] in it" this is also seen when we see Dax Novu being infected, as that he is described as having been contaminated by the endless interplay of matter and narrative. Notably, we gain insight into what Mandrakk saw while looking into "endless narrative," the comic describes how this interplay of narrative was essentially the "beginning of all things", then that statement is immediately followed by a comprehensive history of the DC Multiverse beginning with Barry's discovery of the Multiverse in the Flash of Two Worlds, DC Comics' first ever showing of the concept of the Multiverse, symbolizing that this is the "beginning of all things" narratively, rather then just a simple creation origin story.

Grant Morrison expands on this in an interview, describing the Overvoid as the foundation where the comic is written from the reader's perspective. He emphasizes how readers can flip through the comics from 1938 to 2022, with the Overvoid being the white page that all of these comics are drawn on. And here, as if it wasn't clear enough, the Overvoid is explicitly characterized as a timeless Supermind, which when applied to such an entity alien to the concept of stories, would be a clear and obvious reference to how the Overvoid is quite literally non-linear to the real life timeline order of DC Comics.

Considering these established concepts, the assertion that "the non-dual consciousness introduced by an author is not the same as... the non-dual consciousness introduced by the exact same author" is completely on your ends to prove.

1. Explain why an entity, made by Grant to be beyond the linearity of all stories, would be constrained by the chronological order of stories by the assumption that the Overvoid was only limited to Final Crisis and above, even when limiting this logic just to Grants stories only.
2. Additionally, justify why instances describing the exact same concept should be separated merely because they now have a name assigned to them.

The first thing I agreed with was all of the above, my argument is precisely about what Dax Novu is and what Mandrakk is, since that is a whole hook on a half of your argument. Keep in mind that your argument doesn't need Mandrakk's part for everything you said about the Overvoid's transcendent state to be true.

What I mentioned as chronology, is related to Dax Novu, and not to the Over-void, the Over-void is aternum, I agree. I'll even repeat what I meant with my argument:

• There are mentions of Dax Novu as a "monitor" that are being linked to the Over-void which is also called "monitor" in another page, which ends up casting doubt on the justification for Over-void's perfection. For example, "mandrakk is the part of the monitor that felt contaminated", as I justified and gave all my points, Mandrakk is actually the part of Dax Novu that felt contaminated, and not Over-void.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This argument is only convenient for you and him when it leaves room for another character to be upgraded, isn't it?

Alonik, I'm not talking to you, I was responding to Goofy and Deagon.

 

[Alonik]

Alonik, I'm not talking to you, I was responding to Goofy and Deagon.

My apologies, because you didn't quote any of them, and apparently, what you quotes in the beginning of the text, it seemed like an agreement with Xearsay against what I said at the same moment that i was writing my points.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

My apologies, because you didn't quote any of them, and apparently, what you quotes in the beginning of the text, it seemed like an agreement with Xearsay against what I said at the same moment that i was writing my points.

Your argument is a little wonky, I didn't really read any of the previous threads you guys had over this so I'm not too sure about it.

But to my knowledge, you do agree that the Book of Limbo and the Cave were referencing Dax Novu/Mandrakk but not the actual non-dual awareness/white page Overvoid?

 

[Alonik]

But to my knowledge, you do agree that the Book of Limbo and the Cave were referencing Dax Novu/Mandrakk but not the actual non-dual awareness/white page Overvoid?

No i don't agree with that, however i agree with the big picture that you're trying to reach. The Cave and the Book of Limbo is refering to both the Over-void and Dax Novu, though the dual references are just pointed out when they're talking about Dax Novu, while both of them make it clear that the Over-void is the non-dual awareness, that is everything that the flaw isn't.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

No offense, but I can’t really make sense of most your comment. It’s pretty incoherent. I digress, I brought up Grants statements because you said that we don’t know Grants intention when we in fact do know Grants intention. To Grant the Ovevroid is “God” in the sense of a non-dual ground of being, just like what’s expressed in his Kid Eternity story and Doom Patrol stories.

And again, to address the last portion of your comment, the OP completely disproves what you’re saying and you’ve presented no evidence against it. You actually haven’t even directly quoted any of the arguments made in the OP and replied to it. And until you do so, we’re gonna go back to ignoring your comments in this thread.

You haven't made any difference in your claim to actually express those stories are mentioning the Overvoid. So with that, I don't actually see any more evidence or direct correlation to actually link them since it's mainly you trying to put your theories to connect them. Unless you have undeniable proof that Grant actually had those intentions.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

No i don't agree with that, however i agree with the big picture that you're trying to reach. The Cave and the Book of Limbo is refering to both the Over-void and Dax Novu, though the dual references are just pointed out when they're talking about Dax Novu, while both of them make it clear that the Over-void is the non-dual awareness, that is everything that the flaw isn't.

Then that is fundamentally what I'm trying to push, which is fine by me. I'll give you my discord if you wish to discuss this further with me and Xear

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

To argue that an author such as Grant Morrison was "referring to different characters" in these two separate instances in reference to the exact same concept is most definitely on your end to prove, not Xearsays, nor me.

You're making a theory based on those notions. None of what you said is very undeniable. What you're doing only stems from what seems good to make, not what the stories actually entailed. So you don't have to act so smug or show such retorts.

Worry not, interestingly enough, the Overvoid is an entity that such an argument of DC chronology simply does not even apply to, particularly in Morrison's stories.

In Final Crisis, the Overvoid is depicted as an awareness devoid of the concept of stories. It explicitly sees their nature as contradictory, establishing a clear relationship: the Overvoid is a thing where the notion of stories do not exist, and is contradictory.

Pretty obvious when you consider stories didn't exist when it was in their state of perfection where he wasn't even conscious to begin with.

This point isn't very relevant.

The origin of the Flaw is explained in Final Crisis as one story that "has all the others [stories] in it" this is also seen when we see Dax Novu being infected, as that he is described as having been contaminated by the endless interplay of matter and narrative. Notably, we gain insight into what Mandrakk saw while looking into "endless narrative," the comic describes how this interplay of narrative was essentially the "beginning of all things", then that statement is immediately followed by a comprehensive history of the DC Multiverse beginning with Barry's discovery of the Multiverse in the Flash of Two Worlds, DC Comics' first ever showing of the concept of the Multiverse, symbolizing that this is the "beginning of all things" narratively, rather then just a simple creation origin story.

This is clearly Xearsey-inspired since the scan had nothing to do with that.

The beginning is referring to the actions of the Flash, to whom usually whims out of the events first. Starting with the obvious “Crisis on Infinite Earth.” Narratives and Stories are always on play and are synonymous, Dax Novu, the original Proto-Monitor founded these endless plays. The story switches to what they are, so the two scans are in order. It's just detailing what those narratives mentioned by Kamandi. Plus, the Flaw was always a Multiverse in itself nothing began with that statement, or else there shouldn't even be narratives to look at if that were the case.

Grant Morrison expands on this in an interview, describing the Overvoid as the foundation where the comic is written from the reader's perspective. He emphasizes how readers can flip through the comics from 1938 to 2022, with the Overvoid being the white page that all of these comics are drawn on. And here, as if it wasn't clear enough, the Overvoid is explicitly characterized as a timeless Supermind, which when applied to such an entity alien to the concept of stories, would be a clear and obvious reference to how the Overvoid is quite literally non-linear to the real life timeline order of DC Comics.

I don't think you get what he was trying to say. Your first point is absolutely useless because it has nothing to do with the Overvoid.

What's more important here is what the Overvoid is. It's still a comic book character and is meant to represent the fictional canvas in the setting of DCU. The “timeless” part is not for publication use, it's simply the nature of the Void being eternal.

Considering these established concepts, the assertion that "the non-dual consciousness introduced by an author is not the same as... the non-dual consciousness introduced by the exact same author" is completely on your ends to prove.

1. Explain why an entity, made by Grant to be beyond the linearity of all stories, would be constrained by the chronological order of stories by the assumption that the Overvoid was only limited to Final Crisis and above, even when limiting this logic just to Grants stories only.

Simply how Overvoid reacted to the Multiverse. Where it didn't know about it, apparently made a concept for it, and defined itself in relation to the Flaw. What did we know of that unified being have any relation of Overvoid and if we specifically only use the stories.

1. Additionally, justify why instances describing the exact same concept should be separated merely because they now have a name assigned to them.

Doesn't help your case, anyways.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

To address and adhere to those stories:

The pure being was referring to the original state of consciousness which was God and all agents of Chaos and Order are reflected upon, where they manifest themselves in form away from that being. Here’s why this matters:

• Overvoid is a name that Monitor named itself after discovering the Flaw. Also, this was prior to it even being a being or having a consciousness.

So far, how do you connect the two logic?

• The story mainly dwells on spirituality and the journey of saving friends from the grips of eternal damnation with monsters in the way. “Non-Duality” describes the same entity that originated those Lords of Chaos and Order where they were once the same to fall from each other, since Chaos's nature is to oppose Order.

Ok, what about Doom Patrol:

• First off with the interview with Wired. Buddhism isn't the only religion to dwell in deep meditation or a state of pure bliss state. Not to mention, it wasn't even mentioned during the story, it was allegorical for the idea of what Overvoid was prior to the Flaw.
• Not to mention the Doom Patrol scans were saying one can make it to that state. This state is of one’s own mind since in Buddhism anyone can achieve Nirvana/Buddahood. In Multiversity, the outdated map claims nothing except the Overvoid, Source, and Unknowable exist beyond the Multiverse. That even thoughts die unless we go the route of Matteis's theory everyone is God then this falls short.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This is clearly Xearsey-inspired since the scan had nothing to do with that.

???

The beginning is referring to the actions of the Flash, to whom usually whims out of the events first. Starting with the obvious “Crisis on Infinite Earth.” Narratives and Stories are always on play and are synonymous, Dax Novu, the original Proto-Monitor founded these endless plays. The story switches to what they are, so the two scans are in order. It's just detailing what those narratives mentioned by Kamandi. Plus, the Flaw was always a Multiverse in itself nothing began with that statement, or else there shouldn't even be narratives to look at if that were the case.

The non-bolded part is either a handwave, or literally just paraphrasing what I said, I'm actually unsure.

The bolded part though, is very much wrong, because the scan explicitly mentions how "What had been universe becomes multiverse" following it up with the first ever showing of the Multiverse in DC Comics, being shown to Dax in a lightning dazzle. That lightning dazzle, is the Flash on two Worlds comic, the introduction of the Multiverse, I.e. "And so begins all things, with a Flash."

First off with the interview with Wired. Buddhism isn't the only religion to dwell in deep meditation or a state of pure bliss state. Not to mention, it wasn't even mentioned during the story, it was allegorical for the idea of what Overvoid was prior to the Flaw

I have no idea how that is related to this thread.

Bolded part is untrue, Mandrakk is the part of the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Flaw, and by extension, what the book refers to as having "no concept of story" would be Dax Novu, considering we later find out how because of that very ignorance, Mandrakk was contaminated.

The Overvoid, as described by Grant, is devoid of contradictions as a whole, and thus, something like the Flaw (a contradiction as FC has told us) is also resolved.

I am pretty much summarizing a large part of my OP, which then means that we are running in circles.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

???

This notion already had been said by him before, in that manner.

The non-bolded part is either a handwave, or literally just paraphrasing what I said, I'm actually unsure.
The bolded part though, is very much wrong, because the scan explicitly mentions how "What had been universe becomes multiverse" following it up with the first ever showing of the Multiverse in DC Comics, being shown to Dax in a lightning dazzle. That lightning dazzle, is the Flash on two Worlds comic, the introduction of the Multiverse, I.e. "And so begins all things, with a Flash."

What? Are you reading this right? It said Dax was blinded by the Flaw’s lighting dazzle which is start of the Flash in the coming of events as the scans follows up with the notion. Dax was not in a “lighting dazzle” that was the Flaw to which became Multiverse again.

If you actually paid attention, the Conflict generator were Monitor and Anti-Monitor on the story of how the Multiverse became a universe then back to a limited Multiverse. The history of said events are followed after they directly go into the Crisis events in order.

I have no idea how that is related to this thread.

Bolded part is untrue, Mandrakk is the part of the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Flaw, and by extension, what the book refers to as having "no concept of story" would be Dax Novu, considering we later find out how because of that very ignorance, Mandrakk was contaminated.

No one denied this? State of perfection was the state of existence prior to the Flaw as what can used to describe what Niravana is in Buddhism.

At this point, Overvoid was not so perfect “hitherto” was Flaw after it made immaculate perfection, not so perfect as everything was longer just nothing. Dax Novu, part has nothing to do with it.

The Overvoid, as described by Grant, is devoid of contradictions as a whole, and thus, something like the Flaw (a contradiction as FC has told us) is also resolved.

Still a Void, this thing that come to its non-existence would dissolve ie Mandrakk. Flaw isn’t a contractions, it’s all contradictions to the Overvoid since all stories takes place there and it’s the Everything to it’s Nothing.

I am pretty much summarizing a large part of my OP, which then means that we are running in circles.

Funny.

 

[Xearsay]

What? Are you reading this right? It said Dax was blinded by the Flaw’s dazzle lighting which is the Flash as the scans follows up with the notion. Dax was not in a “lighting dazzle” that was the Flaw to which became Multiverse again.

If you actually paid attention, the Conflict generator were Monitor and Anti-Monitor on the story of how the Multiverse became a a universe then back to a limited Multiverse. The history of said events are followed after they directly go into the Crisis events in order.

Dude he’s literally saying the same thing here. You’re replying to Kenshin in disagreement and saying the same exact thing as him. Instead of telling other people to pay attention you should heed your own advice.

Dax Novu investigated the flaw which he perceived as a contradiction, and upon perceive it he witnessed all of DC’s history at once, from Barry Allen first discovering the Multiverse decades ago, to everything that has and will come later.