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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

Eficiente

Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
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Master Hand

"Created the Smash Bros. universe"

  • False, gives no evidence of it due to being non-existent
"and pulled its fighters from other universes"

  • False, even if it were true it should not be in AP
"When he is killed, the universe ceases to exist"

  • Contradicted multiple times, + is just an exaggerated interpretation
"Treats his versions of Arceus and the Creation Trio [who still have universal statements] as toys"

  • Gives no evidence of that universal statements due to being non-existent
Tabuu

"Created"

  • False
"and embodies the Subspace realm"

  • Who gives a sh*t?
"which is destroyed when he dies"

  • No size?
  • Due to the Subspace Gunship being "capable of infinitely rending space" from the universe to his realm some say that it's universal/infinite in size, except that this is an atrocious hyperbole
 
Give me time, everything in the OP is a problem, except for the last thing, which gets more credence due to the ratings.
 
I agree with Assalt, and point out that the "even more with Ultimate" comes from Sakurai explaining the lore and Galeem and the other dude being vastly above MH & CH. The former clearly not being the creators of the universe (Galeem destroys it but that's not Low 2-C).
 
Assaltwaffle said:
The Smash Bros lore was basically rebuilt with Brawl and even more with Ultimate. I think treating Master Hand as a creator who sees things as fiction was pretty much debunked the moment Tabuu subdued him.

The only feat he has is being implied to be over Low 2-C versions of the CT.
Click to expand...
Except Tabuu was never part of the World of Trophies. Master Hand's status as a creator god has no bearing on Tabuu, and the reasons for Tabuu's feat being "debunked" is incorrect as well.
 
Master Hand being a supreme creator replies on him being the strongest. In Brawl he appears as a puppeteer who became the puppet by Tabuu.

Even in his "trophy world" appearances, he is beaten by the Smashers. He has never been a supreme creator nor has he been above the normal cast. Either everyone and their mothers is a god-Slayer or MH isn't a strong as originally thought, especially with the context provided by Tabuu and Galeem.
 
Stated? Where?

Needless to say that the implication is vague and insufficient.
 
I'm neutral regarding the downgrades, but I need to address quite a few points. Perceiving other characters as toys or trophies =/= existing on an upper-dimensional plane, yes. It's not like Andy from Toy Story is Low 2-C based on that. And not sure about Master Hand being creator of the universe; especially since there's a crap ton of Master hands in Ultimate. Master Hand could be a right hand of the true creator, but I don't think Master Hand himself is the creator.

As for Tabuu and Subspace, also neutral on that. But I'm pretty sure there's something that can save the universal ratings. I'd like to get a chance to get started on the Adventure mode of Ultimate though. Palkia and Dialga statements might save the Tier 2 rating though.
 
@Cal If there are statements of him creating the universe, just bring them here.
 
Even if there are statements from Melee, Smash has evolved far beyond that.

Master Hand's bio as a trophy does not imply he holds back 99% of the time, and the one time he absolutely wouldn't is against Tabuu, who he failed to damage. The Smashers beat Tabuu just like they beat Master Hand.

The Smashers are consistently above MH and even beings higher than him. There isn't a single instance in which MH is an untouchable godlike creator, so even if he has a universe level statement, is that really consistent in the face of every feat and fight he has ever shown in the franchise? I don't think so.

So either every single Smasher is a Low 2-C, or no one is.
 
There was a Galaxy level feat in the intro for Smash Ultimate and Kirby did have a Massively FTL+ speed feat for sure. But yeah, starting to doubt Master Hand being a god.
 
@Assalt.

So many things I have to talk about... One.

"A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidde) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination."

This was Brawl, btw, not Melee. Same game with Tabuu.

Beating Tabuu is an outlier. Classic Mode isn't canon, and even if it was, MH is holding back.

Furthermore, even if Master Hand was downgraded, there's absolutely no way that the Smashers are above him, let alone characters above him. Tabuu and Galeem one shot everyone. They are all literally toys to Master Hand, who he brought to life in the first ten seconds of the franchise.

Also, the Special Orders imply that even Crazy Hand isn't going all out. Crazy Hand is issuing out challenges and rewarding you for them (same with Master Hand). Why would the challenge against him be any different, especially since he rewards you after?
 
Master Hand:

  • Embodies creation in the universe
  • Snaps everything into existence in SSB64
  • Stated to have a power that borders on absolute
  • Is stated to be the master of this world
It's easy to put two and two together, people...
 
A lot of statements with literally no showings to back them up and SSB64 is irrelevant.

1. Embodying creation, unless it gives you feats, means nothing.

2. Maybe? Even when you look at this I don't know if this is a provable feat or can be shown to be "everything". Also Smash has evolved WAY past 64 in terms of worldbuilding. That is like using to original Divinity to define Divinity: Original Sin 2's cosmology, even if OG Divinity contradicts OS2.

3. Having "power that borders on absolute" means jack if you get enslaved and absolutely bopped by another guy (who doesn't hold back) who gets beaten by the Smashers.

4. Means absolutely nothing. A 6-C could be the "master of the world" if there is nothing to oppose him. Also a king, who is 9-C at best, is the master and lord of his nation. That does not make him country level.

I want something tangible. Something not contradicted by literally everything. Something like Galeem destroying the entire Milky Way galaxy. Once we have more info on World of Light, we can determine if Galeem is fought at full power and if the Smashers should scale, but MH and Tabuu don't, since they are directly stated to be inferior.

Edit: Also by "Galeem at full power" I mean him after absorbing his 700 Master Hands (~700 since Marth said they (a group around 70 strong) would need to take down around 10).
 
Well, the very first cutscene for the Adventure mode of Smash Ultimate mentions text about "The Universe being crushed," but the YouTube videos I can find don't seem to have any text. Maybe playing it on Hard Mode changes some things or something.

Edit: Pause video at 4:47
 
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