Super Smash Bros Upgrades

[ShockingPsychic]

Howdy, today I'm going to be suggesting an upgrade for Super Smash Bros. characters. As I am unsure of what will be accepted, I am going to give several different 'ends' to the upgrade. Hopefully, from there, we can figure out which end is most appropriate.

The following tiers will be for basically every character, as they're all currently High 7-A

High 6-C

• Lugia's trophy description includes his big feat from the Pokémon series, creating 40 day storms. Lugia's feat is 497.13 gigatons; Large Island level (High 6-C) Every fighter is able to withstand Lugia's attacks

High 6-A

• Reshiram's trophy description includes his big feat from the Pokémon series, scorching the world. Reshiram's feat is 275.93 petatons; Multi-Continent level (High 6-A)

4-B

• Sephiroth's Final Smash, Supernova, was calced. Sephiroth's feat is 1.06 KiloFoe; Solar System level (4-B). Even though Supernova is done with a Final Smash, every character on the cast can survive it, and it's done canonically in World of Light alongside every other Final Smash (through the FS Meter)

4-A

• Rosalina's Final Smash creates a starry sky, which should be 4-A. Similar to Sephiroth, this feat is performed canonically during World of Light battles that include the FS Meter, and everyone on the cast can survive it. I'm fairly certain other Smashers do similar things during their Final Smash, and will update this once I look into it further.

3-A

• Galeem's intro contains the following lines that should be 3-A, as they imply destruction and creation
  
  "Galeem sought to create a new world. The fighters and their countless stories... came to an end as the light consumed them."
  
  "Thus, the universe was crushed in the hands of Galeem. Those who fought the light were devoured. The others lost their bodies and became spirits. Only one survived... A star of hope twinkles faintly as the dust settles on the new world."
• While this is currently treated as hax, I don't think that should be the case, as the bolded wording implies both physical destruction and creation of universe. This should be 3-A and maaaybe "possibly Low 2-C", as it's unclear whether or not time was created/destroyed

High 3-A

• Palkia's trophy description says it can control all of space, which would be High 3-A. This could just be Spatial Manipulation, but context from the Pokémon series would imply that this would scale to his physical power. All Smashers can take hits from Palkia on the Spear Pillar stage

Low 2-C

• See the Galeem section for the "possibly Low 2-C"
• Dialga's trophy description says it created time and set it in motion, Low 2-C. Much like Palkia, all Smashers can take hits from Dialga on the Spear Pillar stage
• Magicant's trophy description states that "certain characters" (Such as Ness, as seen in his home game) created it, and as seen on Ness' profile in his own series, this is accepted as a Low 2-C feat
• Arceus' trophy description states: "A Pokémon said to have hatched from an egg that appeared from nothing. Newly hatched, it created the world and the sky." Arceus is a Pokeball Pokémon and appears in World of Light as a spirit, where fighters can both damage and take hits from it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sephiroth’s section says High 5-A instead of 4-B

Personally I’d scale Galeem and Dharkon to 3-A and Smash fighters to 4-B, up to 3-A with Spirits

Nothing suggests the 3-A moves are several orders of magnitude above their normal capabilities. In fact, Galeem is at the epicenter of his 3-A attack and came out fine. This should’ve never been made into just “up to 3-A with Abilities”

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Sephiroth’s section says High 5-A instead of 4-B

Fixed

up to 3-A with Spirits

They don't need Spirits to harm them, do they?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Fixed


They don't need Spirits to harm them, do they?

Without Spirits, they get one-shot by Galeem’s 3-A attack in the opening cutscene. Being able to fight them without Spirits could just be game mechanics, especially considering just how much damage you take when you have no Spirits

 

[Psychomaster35]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with these upgrades. The way Smash is being handled right now is really at a downplay point.

 

[koopa3144]

I feel like a "High 6-A likely 4-B, up to 3-A, possibly Low 2-C with Spirits" works best.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with these upgrades. The way Smash is being handled right now is really at a downplay point.

Which end do you agree with?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I feel like a "High 6-A likely 4-B, up to 3-A, possibly Low 2-C with Spirits" works best.

I don’t see a reason for this honestly. Instead of just trying to cram everything in, we should actually just settle on what we think is best

 

[SamanPatou]

Galeem and Dharkon were downgraded because their 3-A attack is pretty much hax and no one in the cast can survive, whether you account the initial scene or the bad endings. They also don't do that in battle, meaning they can't always do that, otherwise both would have oneshotted the entire cast just as easily as Galeem did initially.

I'm against scaling characters through gameplay honestly, i.e. assist trophies and poke balls, and the trophy description were ditched when we stopped scaling Master Hand to Dialga and Palkia's trophy descriptions.

Sephiroth is blatantly above anyone in the cast looking at his trailer, Galeem included, aside from Cloud and him using the final smash in gameplay is even less canon than his trailer.

Rosalina just alters the background for sake of the cool, just like Greninja summons the moon, Olimar the night and many others warp the whole background.

 

[Armorchompy]

• Sephiroth's Final Smash, Supernova, was calced. Sephiroth's feat is 1.06 KiloFoe; Solar System level (4-B). Even though Supernova is done with a Final Smash, every character on the cast can survive it, and it's done canonically in World of Light alongside every other Final Smash (through the FS Meter)

Surface area would drop this feat a lot, to like tier 5 I think?

• Rosalina's Final Smash creates a starry sky, which should be 4-A. Similar to Sephiroth, this feat is performed canonically during World of Light battles that include the FS Meter, and everyone on the cast can survive it. I'm fairly certain other Smashers do similar things during their Final Smash, and will update this once I look into it further.

A lot of final smashes have a neat background effect, I don't think this is any different, and even if it is it wouldn't actually scale to her combat AP

• Palkia's trophy description says it can control all of space, which would be High 3-A. This could just be Spatial Manipulation, but context from the Pokémon series would imply that this would scale to his physical power. All Smashers can take hits from Palkia on the Spear Pillar stage

I definitely wouldn't take this at face value.

As for the rest, Galeem/Darkhon scaling is a long debate that I've never had any interest with. Honestly the High 7-A is awful so you can replace it with literally anything and it'll be an improvement.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

assist trophies and poke balls, and the trophy description were ditched when we stopped scaling Master Hand to Dialga and Palkia's trophy descriptions.

They scale to an Assist Trophy right now though? They scale to Majora's Moon

And we only stopped scaling Master Hand to Palkia/Dialga because he didn't create them, we've never stopped using trophy descriptions

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm against using Majora's Moon as well tbf, gameplay scaling shouldn't be used in general, it's just that we lack alternatives right now.
Someone should get to calc stuff from the Subspace Emissary (there are a few feats) or WoL, though I don't remember anything from the latter.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I'm against using Majora's Moon as well tbf, gameplay scaling shouldn't be used in

Gameplay shouldn't be used to scale... game characters? In a gameplay-focused game?


Plus, Assist Trophies and Final Smashes happen in the storyline, during Spirit battles. Trophy descriptions are also canon, as they serve to explain things not shown in the story mode. Ness' explains how he got his new PSI and all of the Subspace trophies expand the lore

 

[CloverDragon03]

Surface area would drop this feat a lot, to like tier 5 I think?

Not sure what you mean here ngl

Also if it helps, the very edge of the explosion destroyed Earth

 

[SamanPatou]

A gameplay focused game that still has an inch of story here and there though, and Smash isn't 100% gameplay-centric like other games were the boundary between it and lore/story is nonexistent.

Spirit Battles are just as game mechanics as the characters' following a board, or fighting in various stages instead of the place they're on in that moment and so on. Or rather, the powers bestowed can very well be accounted, but we shouldn't forget how their execution is made through gameplay.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Galeem and Dharkon were downgraded because their 3-A attack is pretty much hax and no one in the cast can survive, whether you account the initial scene or the bad endings. They also don't do that in battle, meaning they can't always do that, otherwise both would have oneshotted the entire cast just as easily as Galeem did initially.

The 3-A attack is not hax, what? Also yeah, Spiritless characters get one-shot, which is why we need to make note of Spirits amping the fighters

Not using the attack in game is also just gameplay mechanics because a screen-wiping laser danmaku would be broken

I'm against scaling characters through gameplay honestly, i.e. assist trophies and poke balls, and the trophy description were ditched when we stopped scaling Master Hand to Dialga and Palkia's trophy descriptions.

Not sure why this was ditched…

Sephiroth is blatantly above anyone in the cast looking at his trailer, Galeem included, aside from Cloud and him using the final smash in gameplay is even less canon than his trailer.

Cloud was being beaten by Galeem before Sephiroth. The scale in the trailer straight up can’t be reconciled because it’s inconsistent no matter what

 

[Arceus0x]

I feel like Saman doesn't make sense here, he just keep saying stuff is gameplay and gameplay. If the game is about gameplay then use the damn gameplay already. How many tier 4 to 3 characters do you need to see killed by the main characters to finally agree that it is beyond tier freaking 7?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

A gameplay focused game that still has an inch of story here and there though, and Smash isn't 100% gameplay-centric like other games were the boundary between it and lore/story is nonexistent.

Not using gameplay and instead using the hour of story cutscenes in Brawl and Ultimate (2 of 5 games in the series that actually have a story) just ain't it. That's silly. It's a gameplay focused game series where the main focus is on the Vs mode

Spirit Battles are just as game mechanics as the characters' following a board, or fighting in various stages instead of the place they're on in that moment and so on.

What?

Spirit battles are the main plot beats of World of Light. They take up 90% of it. Smashers have to free the spirits from Galeem's control. The Spirits have powers when using a vessel, like using Assist Trophies and Pokéballs

 

[SamanPatou]

The 3-A attack is not hax, what? Also yeah, Spiritless characters get one-shot, which is why we need to make note of Spirits amping the fighters

It's hax because it transmutes the characters and realitywarps the universe, just like Dharkon's wave that kills Mario.
The problem with the spirits is that you wreck Galeem even before having obtained a third of the spirits in the game and the bosses still oneshot the whole cast immediately with the AoE if you choose the bad ending.

Not using the attack in game is also just gameplay mechanics because a screen-wiping laser danmaku would be broken

Tabuu disagrees
I meant that there was something preventing them from doing it even in-lore, not just gameplay. If Galeem and Dharkon had the ability to unleash their super attack anytime, they would have done it the moment the fighters showed to battle them individually.

Cloud was being beaten by Galeem before Sephiroth. The scale in the trailer straight up can’t be reconciled because it’s inconsistent no matter what

Yes, that's why Sephiroth should remain in his own bubble, honestly.

I feel like Saman doesn't make sense here, he just keep saying stuff is gameplay and gameplay. If the game is about gameplay then use the damn gameplay already. How many tier 4 to 3 characters do you need to see killed by the main characters to finally agree that it is beyond tier freaking 7?

We have a Game Mechanics page exactly to establish rules regarding that and most of the games (which are all focused on gameplay because it's a game) don't do that.

Spirit battles are the main plot beats of World of Light. They take up 90% of it. Smashers have to free the spirits from Galeem's control. The Spirits have powers when using a vessel, like using Assist Trophies and Pokéballs

I mean that the battle is portrayed through gameplay. You have trailers and cutscenes showing how battles are meant to go in-lore, both in Ultimate and Brawl, using the in-game adaptation isn't correct.

 

[Armorchompy]

Not sure what you mean here ngl

The people who survive Supernova do so from a massive distance, which means they only tank a minuscule amount of the blast. The explosion itself is 4-B, but that would only scale to Seph with the Smash Ball, without he'd just scale to the value of tanking it (if it were the main feat ofc).

Also if it helps, the very edge of the explosion destroyed Earth

I mean yeah, it's still a very impressive feat.

 

[Lou_change]

We could try reading more trophy and event mode lore

 

[ShockingPsychic]

would only scale to Seph with the Smash Ball

I think it'd be fair to say that all Final Smashes are comparable to each other, given the Meter/Ball grants the power, but other that that I think I agree

 

[ShockingPsychic]

You have trailers and cutscenes showing how battles are meant to go in-lore, both in Ultimate and Brawl, using the in-game adaptation isn't correct.

Why would trailers, secondary canon, take priority over main-story gameplay (primary canon)? Hero's fight also could have been an entirely separate event than a representation of the battles the player goes through

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's hax because it transmutes the characters and realitywarps the universe, just like Dharkon's wave that kills Mario.

It encompasses the entire universe and Galeem is at the epicenter of the move. It falls under “significantly affecting” the universe, so it’s AP.

The problem with the spirits is that you wreck Galeem even before having obtained a third of the spirits in the game and the bosses still oneshot the whole cast immediately with the AoE if you choose the bad ending.

Okay? In said cutscenes, the characters aren’t shown being amped by Spirits (which is usually marked by some form of a visual indicator, seen in the cutscene where a Spirit powers a Mario clone)

Tabuu disagrees
I meant that there was something preventing them from doing it even in-lore, not just gameplay. If Galeem and Dharkon had the ability to unleash their super attack anytime, they would have done it the moment the fighters showed to battle them individually.

False equivalence on Tabuu for one. A single wave of energy can be programmed in as just a single attack that can be airdodged. A universe encompassing danmaku of lasers is different

Also we literally can dismiss this as Plot-Induced Stupidity given that it doesn’t even seem to take much time to charge it yet they never do it. What even would be preventing them from doing it in-universe?

I’m not a fan of trying to rationalize this with “some outside force we’re making up, can’t even explain, and isn’t even hinted at is preventing this somehow.”

Yes, that's why Sephiroth should remain in his own bubble, honestly.

Or! We disregard trailer scaling because it’s not even an in-game cutscene and creates an inconsistency no matter what approach is taken

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Sephiroth's trailer breaks the lore and is clearly just an attempt to make him look cool (and it succeeded). He's the final boss of his own game so they had him one-shot the final boss of Smash. In-game, there's only the Dark, Light, and True endings, the Sephiroth ending isn't canon

In-game, he's on the same level as everyone else. The Sephiroth challenge, Classic mode, World of Light (which he DOES appear in at a point, alongside every DLC) and the typical VS modes all show that

The solution is very simple and rather obvious; Disregard the Sephiroth trailer.

From what I remember, the only other trailer that takes place within the story mode is Hero's. It doesn't break lore, all it really shows is Hero's arrival. If anything, this can explain why the DLCs just show up in WoL at a point. It can be used as secondary canon

 

[That_moron2]

The solution is very simple and rather obvious; Disregard the Sephiroth trailer.

Maybe add a verse note for that.

 

[Armorchompy]

probably just a note on the profile, if that's the conclusion.

 

[CloverDragon03]

probably just a note on the profile, if that's the conclusion.

Sephiroth doesn’t have a Smash profile yet, though if he gets one, the note should go there yeah

 

[Psychomaster35]

Sephiroth doesn’t have a Smash profile yet, though if he gets one, the note should go there yeah

You can list it on the verse page instead

 

[koopa3144]

So are we just gonna consider all trailers non-canon cause it'd be weird if only Sephiroth's trailer is non-canon.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Sephiroth's explicitly breaks the lore, the others don't

 

[CloverDragon03]

So are we just gonna consider all trailers non-canon cause it'd be weird if only Sephiroth's trailer is non-canon.

I mean either way, the Sephiroth one is the only one that actually causes scaling hiccups so it doesn’t really matter

 

[Sparkive]

Also Hero, I mean, it is assumed that everyone in the smash universe has been consumed by the light, how is it that not only Hero, but several Heroes survived that?, unless we assume that the group rescued him at some point (which which would be strange)
And doesn't anyone find Kazuya's strange one, in which he literally throws everyone he defeats into the lava, but they are still alive for future trailers?
I really don't think it's a good idea to take the Ultimate trailers as canon (at most secondary canon)

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also Hero, I mean, it is assumed that everyone in the smash universe has been consumed by the light, how is it that not only Hero, but several Heroes survived that?, unless we assume that the group rescued him at some point (which which would be strange)
And doesn't anyone find Kazuya's strange one, in which he literally throws everyone he defeats into the lava, but they are still alive for future trailers?
I really don't think it's a good idea to take the Ultimate trailers as canon (at most secondary canon)

Yeah, this is all true, not even mentioning all the times characters die even in non-DLC trailers, like Luigi dying in the Simon/Richter trailer, Mario and Mega Man dying in the Ridley trailer, etc.

Pretty safe to dismiss the Ultimate trailers as non-canon, actually

 

[koopa3144]

Tbh now that I'm thinking about it, I think DLC fighters can canon to WoL is a bit iffy. In WoL DLC fighters are not seen in the beginning cutscene nor in the cutscene where Galeem clones the all fighters. All the DLC characters just kind of appear after freeing 10 other fighters, even though Min Min, Pyra, and Mythra were turned into spirits and still exist as spirits even after being unlocked as fighters in WoL

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbh now that I'm thinking about it, I think DLC fighters can canon to WoL is a bit iffy. In WoL DLC fighters are not seen in the beginning cutscene nor in the cutscene where Galeem clones the all fighters. All the DLC characters just kind of appear after freeing 10 other fighters, even though Min Min, Pyra, and Mythra were turned into spirits and still exist as spirits even after being unlocked as fighters in WoL

I'm like 99% sure this can all be rationalized under the fact that the DLC fighters hadn't come out at the time

In addition, for Min Min, Pyra, and Mythra, they have specific Fighter Spirits that are separate from the Spirits we saw of them in the base game, so do with that what you will

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I think them being added to WoL at all means they're supposed to be there, but due to the nature of DLC, they couldn't exactly get in at release

Something similar happened to Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link in Brawl. They don't show up in the main story but get added in the post-game

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think them being added to WoL at all means they're supposed to be there, but due to the nature of DLC, they couldn't exactly get in at release

Yeah, like... They could've just not been put into WoL

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The original post makes some good observations. The information will be useful to apply to the profiles, but not all of it. I wrote clarifications below.

Rosalina's Final Smash creates a starry sky, which should be 4-A. Similar to Sephiroth, this feat is performed canonically during World of Light battles that include the FS Meter, and everyone on the cast can survive it. I'm fairly certain other Smashers do similar things during their Final Smash, and will update this once I look into it further.

Nothing implies that the starry sky has anything to do with Rosalina's physical combat capabilities. The background isn't part of the Grand Star attack, so any fighter being able to survive the attack is irrelevant. There would need to be evidence that the power of Rosalina's non-physical creation ability can apply to her physical power, otherwise, it's just hax.

Galeem's intro contains the following lines that should be 3-A, as they imply destruction and creation

"Galeem sought to create a new world. The fighters and their countless stories... came to an end as the light consumed them."

"Thus, the universe was crushed in the hands of Galeem. Those who fought the light were devoured. The others lost their bodies and became spirits. Only one survived... A star of hope twinkles faintly as the dust settles on the new world."
[*]While this is currently treated as hax, I don't think that should be the case, as the bolded wording implies both physical destruction and creation of universe. This should be 3-A and maaaybe "possibly Low 2-C", as it's unclear whether or not time was created/destroyed

Galeem's reach was multiple universes. Masahiro Sakurai described Galeem's influence as affecting multiple worlds, as the justification for why Bayonetta and Palutena couldn't travel to specific other universes to escape Galeem. The source I used is the Nintendo Life article "Sakurai Reveals Why Kirby Was The Only One Who Survived The Smash Ultimate Apocalypse". This is consistent with what we can see during World of Light, since a wide variety of stages can be the settings in Spirit Battles, and the array isn't limited to a single universe. As an example, some stages take place on Earth, while some clouds in Magicant are also a stage, which takes place in a separate universe than the one that Earth is in.

Magicant's trophy description states that "certain characters" (Such as Ness, as seen in his home game) created it, and as seen on Ness' profile in his own series, this is accepted as a Low 2-C feat
[/LIST]

This doesn't apply to Ness' physical power, similar to why Rosalina's creation doesn't apply to her physical power. Ness in Super Smash Bros. doesn't physically have the power of Magicant just because he "created it" by standing on eight power spots, since that's a hax ability. Ness in EarthBound absorbed the power of Earth and Magicant so he could defeat Giygas, who would've destroyed the universe, whereas Ness has no evidence of having done this during Super Smash Bros. as far as I'm aware.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Yeah, this is all true, not even mentioning all the times characters die even in non-DLC trailers, like Luigi dying in the Simon/Richter trailer, Mario and Mega Man dying in the Ridley trailer, etc.

Pretty safe to dismiss the Ultimate trailers as non-canon, actually

This seems to forget that any of the fighters can survive getting skewered by Ridley in-game, and any of the fighters can get obliterated by Death's scythe only to come back from the revival platform in-game. Maybe you think that characters having multiple stocks is non-canon though, which can make sense, but a major part of Super Smash Bros. is playing matches with multiple stocks, even though World of Light doesn't specifically center around it. However, during the Flying Man Spirit Battle, the opponent has multiple stocks, so the feature is canon.