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Master Hand and Tabuu downgrades

Numbersguy said:
The toys had no life before MH showed up, and no the entire Smash Bros universe exists at the same time... your argument falls apart on the spot. Now let's use your own logic, how do you think Subspace Emissary happened? Stop using this fallacy, it makes you look bad
Click to expand...
There was stuff before MH showed up, he gives life to the toys and creates whatever is in the stage, including the background. The only fallacy is you saying that whatever is in the stage means the universe.

The "toys come to life"-thing changed in Brawl, were everyone became a trophy when defeated, that's how the verse works. Tabuu took control of MH and the universe and everyone were still existing. So did the new bad guy.

Numbersguy said:
The trophy states it, the intro shows it, the ending of classic mode implies it.
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The trophy just states that he creates stuff in the universe, which was already there and he didn't make. The intro shows him make a whatever is in that stage, even the background, but the the universe. The ending of classic mode doesn't imply that at all.
 
Eficiente said:
can anyone construct a justification for the ranks? As they should be in his profiles?
Click to expand...
I want to see a proposal.
 
Eficiente said:
There was stuff before MH showed up, he gives life to the toys and creates whatever is in the stage, including the background. The only fallacy is you saying that whatever is in the stage means the universe.

The "toys come to life"-thing changed in Brawl, were everyone became a trophy when defeated, that's how the verse works. Tabuu took control of MH and the universe and everyone were still existing. So did the new bad guy. The trophy just states that he creates stuff in the universe, which was already there and he didn't make. The intro shows him make a whatever is in that stage, even the background, but the the universe. The ending of classic mode doesn't imply that at all.
Click to expand...
1) No. Just the kid's room existed and the objects in it. There was no "Smash Bros universe" per se.

2) Retcon on who is the boss of who and the toys being changed to trophies. Still, it is still stated that Master Hand created the universe.

3) Wrong. it doesn't state that he created "stuff over the stuff already there", it states that he is the "source of creation in the Smash Bros universe" and that he "personifies creation in the Smash Bros universe".

Dude, give up.
 
Eficiente is the one mad. He is clawing and biting anywhere hoping to make a dent, and failing.
 
I am just calling you out. I debunked you, you answered with fallacies, decided to debunk those with "some sweets", and you keep going. You are looking legit desperate, so just calm down.

Sorry if I come out as rude, but that is the truth. You are going the same way some people have gone down here... and I have been here long enough to witness it.
 
Numbersguy said:
1) No. Just the kid's room existed and the objects in it. There was no "Smash Bros universe" per se.

2) Retcon on who is the boss of who and the toys being changed to trophies. Still, it is still stated that Master Hand created the universe.

3) Wrong. it doesn't state that he created "stuff over the stuff already there", it states that he is the "source of creation in the Smash Bros universe" and that he "personifies creation in the Smash Bros universe".

Dude, give up.
Click to expand...
1) Once again, ignoring how this can be interpreted in other ways, Tabuu took control of MH, and defeated him. The new bad guy took control of MH (in the Smash universe) and is remarkably superior to him.

2) It's not.

3) "source of creation" can very well mean that he creates stuff in the universe, just like CH destroys them. Not that he made the universe, just like CH doesn't destroy it.
 
Numbersguy said:
I am just calling you out. I debunked you, you answered with fallacies, decided to debunk those with "some sweets", and you keep going. You are looking legit desperate, so just calm down.
Sorry if I come out as rude, but that is the truth. You are going the same way some people have gone down here... and I have been here long enough to witness it.
Click to expand...
Bro, I'm calm. And you can't debunk something where there are still arguments.
 
Numbersguy said:
Eficiente is the one mad. He is clawing and biting anywhere hoping to make a dent, and failing.
Click to expand...
You're the one calling him it out on things that aren't even fallacies. This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

You claimed that "This is much a massive jump of assumptions" was an ad hominem. An ad hominem is attacking the person instead of the argument. Nowhere in that statement was he in any way, shape or form attacking you.
 
@SSBXeno Thanks for that.

@Matt I would highly appreciate your opinion in this matter, based on what has been presented so far.
 
Whew lad..chill out people.

Anyway, has anyone here brought up the Dharkon and Galeem fight? I believe they do fight them at full power since both are completely killed at the end (True Ending btw). Whether this helps or not idk.
 
@Dragon Well, this is most likely to be an outlier due to Galeem killing everyone in the beginning, and one ending, Darkon doing the same in the other ending, their defeat being done by all fighters together, and all added to their high tier. I don't even know, but hope, for my High 5-A calc to be applicable.
 
so I haven't followed the entire thing, but imo:

1. Yes, the things about Master Hand creating the verse is too vague to be given a tier

2. But secondary things like the creation trio or the Subspace being destroyed would be enough imo for Tier 2 rating.

3. Galeem should be 3-A no matter what, since it seemingly nuked the entire universe (as stated by the narration).

Also, worth noting that the fighters are pretty much required to be boosted by spirits in order to even fight Galeem. Maybe something to consider.
 
Numbersguy said:
You Eficiente said:
I don't care. I want the evidence, for everything. I will add it to the profiles, which I'm pretty sure are just lying in many things.
Click to expand...

You want to get banned? That is how people get banned
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I didn't know you can get banned for adding the missing evidence on a profile someone neglected to do.
 
@Saikou I'm actually calm about it, the crossed out words aren't to be taken 100% literally but regardless, the evidence requested does need to be added onto the profile as statements by themselves isn't really credible at all.

@Numbersguy Just reminding you now that you're not a mod & you know better not to threaten members with bans, so anyways let's get back to the main topic.

As for right now, I'm neutral about this and I'll just spectate this debate for now.
 
It is specifically and blatantly stated on Master Hand's trophy description in Smash 4 that he's the source of creation in the smash bros universe. That implies he created it unless there was a creator before him, which there is no implication towards. Every other smash god tier scales or is superior to him.
 
The evidence that he created the universe is immensely higher than the evidence that he didn't.

Don't even get me started on the 4D statement in Brawl.
 
Galeen should be 3-A at bare minimum yes, but some of the other statements regarding the creation trio should give a possible Tier 2 rating. As for the smashers scaling to the end game bosses, I'm actually wondering if she should give them two keys or a variable tier given the inconsistencies. I mean, this happens is that they're stomped by the bosses early on, but they have to defeat them so how. So perhaps a base key, and a peak condition key.

As for speed, I think it's case and point that Kirby's warp star is Massively FTL+. Regardless of him not fighting on par with Galeem at first, he easily reacted to and outpaced the blast. Other ships have been shown to be comparable in speed to the Warp Star, and the Warp Star is regularly used as a weapon in the Vs Matches. So Massively FTL+ is actually pretty solid IMO.

Though, it's surprisingly the 7-B calc is what's iffy, and appears to have some degree of calc stacking. I understand where it came from, but Smash Bros is known for the flawed pixel scalings, so there could be an Frame per second fallacy as well.
 
I mostly agree with Saikou and this, but think that a variable tier is unnecessary and we should consider as outliers then beating characters with such superiority over them.

@Smashor I don't think you have readed this thread, especially the repetitive "everyone chill" parts. Sorry but if you can't bring anything new you aren't contributing in anything but saying "I agree that x thing(s) mean that MH is Low 2-C".
 
In that case, the Smashers don't scale from the bosses, but speed might actually be legit given Kirby's warp star.
 
I definitely think so given that we actually saw many of them doing what they could against the rays of light.
 
Can I be honest for one second. If we drop the whole "Master Hand sees the Smashers as just toys and is, therefore, Low 2-C", we have absolutely no reasons to claim that Master Hand is overwhelmingly superior to the fighters. Like, none. Being a creator deity (if Master Hand even is that) doesn't grant you immunity to your creations, his so-called "hidden power" was also beaten by the fighters, stuff like Tabuu and Galeem only soloed the fighters through specific powers/hax and not through sheer power, etc. The fighters fighting people on par with MH is by far more consistent than them being even below him.

I didn't want to say this since people really don't like Tier 2 Smash (And this isn't necessarily what I'm proposing), but the fact that we put entire stories as PIS just because of Smash 64's goddamn intro mind boggles me.
 
I can get behind that but have 2 doubts

  • How are Tabuu's Off-Waves hax? They are OHK, which is...no that?
  • How are Galeem's rays of light hax? The "Spirits manip" comes after it.
 
Eficiente said:
  • How are Galeem's rays of light hax? The "Spirits manip" comes after it.
Click to expand...
I think the question that should be asked is whether those LAZER BEAMZ turn you into dust in a Durability Negation manner or in a "I have much higher AP than you" manner.
 
@Cal He didn't. Ganondorf survived the initial impact of the shield and was able to punch Master Hand out of the bindings before being KO by the impact. He's clearly below Tabuu individually, but certainly not fodderized to the extent we claim.

@Efi

1. It's most likely just a very strong move, or a one-shot hax like the Dark Cannons. Most sources seems to claim that his Wings are the one thing that make him a threat, and when they were disabled by Sonic, Tabuu was unable to wipe out the fighters as easily. Either way, Tabuu doesn't just sheer AP everyone at once, the Off Wings are the only move he was shown to be able to use to one-shot people.

2. Like Tabuu, Galeem only one-shot anyone using those beams, and said beams disintegrate people, not just damage them. They were also shown disintegrating parts of Dharkon, Galeem's equal, further implying that it's hax and not just AP.
 
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