Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dreamy Wakeport, Dreamy Driftwood Shore, and Dreamy Mushrise Park to name a few all have their starry sky-like backgrounds. That should make every other location in the Dream World the size of those three making the entire Dream World the size of ten starry skies.

Okay. So you believe that these locations are part of the same world. With that in mind, what proves that the starry skies they see are all disconnected from one another? Would they not just be the same sky, seen from another location? To give an example of what I'm talking about, you can go outside and look up at the stars right now. However, if you drive 50 miles away, you will be looking at the same set of stars, because it's all part of the same sky. My question is why this would not hold true in the Dream World as well.

 

[Omnificence]

Would they not just be the same sky, seen from another location?

No? See, here's Dreamy Driftwood Shore, Dreamy Mount Pajama, and Dreamy Somnom Woods with their starry skies.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No? See, here's Dreamy Driftwood Shore, Dreamy Mount Pajama, and Dreamy Somnom Woods with their starry skies.

This has literally 0 relation to what I'm asking.

You are assuming that each of these skies show different starry skies. I am arguing that, because these locations are in the same realm, it could just be a single starry sky shared between all 3. Can you prove otherwise? I'm not asking for more scans of starry skies in general, to be clear, and if you still don't understand what I'm asking, then I can't really help you.

 

[Omnificence]

This has literally 0 relation to what I'm asking.

You are assuming that each of these skies show different starry skies. I am arguing that, because these locations are in the same realm, it could just be a single starry sky shared between all 3. Can you prove otherwise? I'm not asking for more scans of starry skies in general, to be clear, and if you still don't understand what I'm asking, then I can't really help you.

Well, even if they were the same starry sky, hasn't it occurred to you that the Dream World is a mirrored version of the actual world in Dream Team? Haven't you ever noticed that these same locations in the Dream World are roughly the same size as the ones on Pi'illo Island? That being said, this should imply that the dreams are slightly bigger. Right, Fuji?

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, even if they were the same starry sky, hasn't it occurred to you that the Dream World is a mirrored version of the actual world in Dream Team? Haven't you ever noticed that these same locations in the Dream World are roughly the same size as the ones on Pi'illo Island? That being said, this should imply that the dreams are slightly bigger. Right, Fuji?

Or am I missing something here?

Just because they mirror a tiny subsection of reality (the locations in question aren't even island-sized), that doesn't mean literally all of existence is mirrored. You don't assume something like that without heavy evidence.

 

[Omnificence]

Just because they mirror a tiny subsection of reality (the locations in question aren't even island-sized), that doesn't mean literally all of existence is mirrored. You don't assume something like that without heavy evidence.

Is that so? Well, how would you know how big that reality is? Wouldn't that tiny reality like the Dream World also have its dimensions, space, time, and additional layers of reality if the Dream World mirrors it? I never said the locations were island-sized.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Is that so? Well, how would you know how big that reality is? Wouldn't that tiny reality like the Dream World also have its dimensions, space, time, and additional layers of reality if the Dream World mirrors it? I never said the locations were island-sized.

JT we've been over this exact point like 50 times already

 

[Omnificence]

JT we've been over this exact point like 50 times already

Alright, then. You and Kirb wanna make a challenge for me?

There is quite literally no actual ******* way to calculate the exact amount of stars in some of these scene, esp the Dream team section where they blur by. It’s generally below a galaxy’s worth but somewhere in the 4A range, which as discussed is a very wide range of “lots of ******* stars”.

Also we did throw down a general estimate of the count of universes, but that an exact count is something we can’t fully determine until:

1. This CRT goes through
2. Will need to be extensively discussed on what would or wouldnt qualify as its own universe / dimension

We listed at least 10 different universes pretty generously (you can debate if every world in SPM is ACTUALLY an entirely separate dimension, for instance), which should be enough for now. Something like that is a big topic in of itself and should have a crt covering it later, but I think I listed all the notable universes with a confirmable or assumable size.

As much as I disagree with this thread you've been pretty obstinate TBH and shooting yourself or the cause to prevent or remediate downgrades in the foot. Just let DDM argue for now.

There doesn't need to be any counts on how many stars there are in the sky it's needlessly complicated and the typical starry sky assumption is good enough and also something to prevent complicated situations like these.

I'm more than willing to find out just how big these dreams are by counting the stars in them and all their other contents, and I'm also willing to count the exact number of universes within the Mario Bros cosmology. I'll take this challenge.

Whoever wants to join me, feel free to. I'm already working on a cosmology blog for it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Frankly I feel like at this point it's better if y'all just stop engaging with each other on this thread since you're driving each other up the wall

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[AStrangeverse]

Uuhhhhhhh

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

don't you have enough agreements to apply this?

pretty sure more than 48hrs have passed

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

don't you have enough agreements to apply this?

pretty sure more than 48hrs have passed

May as well wait for DDM and gather more agreements while waiting, otherwise it'll just lead to DDM making a re-upgrade thread that i'd rather not deal with.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, and I believe StarSprite was also prepping something iirc

 

[Omnificence]

May as well wait for DDM and gather more agreements while waiting, otherwise it'll just lead to DDM making a re-upgrade thread that i'd rather not deal with.

Yeah, and I believe StarSprite was also prepping something iirc

I'm gonna act mature for my age this time and say this...

As much as I hate to admit it, I say we just apply the changes and get DDM, Mephistus, and StarSprite to make the rebuttals for another CRT. Something tells me they're not gonna be replying for a while due to working on their arguments.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I'm gonna act mature for my age this time and say this...

As much as I hate to admit it, I say we just apply the changes and get DDM, Mephistus, and StarSprite to make the rebuttals for another CRT. Something tells me they're not gonna be replying for a while due to working on their arguments.

Everyone is already waiting for both of their responses, I believe it will be more fair to wait for the knowledgeable supporters’s rebuttals before concluding the thread.

 

[Omnificence]

Everyone is already waiting for both of their responses, I believe it will be more fair to wait for the knowledgeable supporters’s rebuttals before concluding the thread.

Alright, then; let's keep it open.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Starsprite just told me that he is doing final touches.

 

[Omnificence]

Starsprite just told me that he is doing final touches.

C'mon, Zesp; let's save it for another thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

C'mon, Zesp; let's save it for another thread.

Why? What exactly is stopping us from just debating in the thread itself?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

For the record ion mind waiting for star or ddm, however, if fuji wants to apply the changes thats understandable

 

[Omnificence]

Why? What exactly is stopping us from just debating in the thread itself?

Why bother continuing? You have the votes to get the downgrades passed, and we're outvoted; just apply them. I'm done trying to reason with you. You got what you wanted; are you happy now? I'm not upset.

Once this revision gets finished I can have that opponent status removed lol. My main reason for opposing the verse is because I disagreed with its higher end interpretations fundamentally and I disliked how Mario & Paper Mario were treated as the same initially. If this revision goes through my main reasons for opposition are up.

You gonna become a supporter now?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Why bother continuing? You have the votes to get the downgrades passed, and we're outvoted; just apply them. I'm done trying to reason with you. You got what you wanted; are you happy now? I'm not upset.

Because if we dont continue it here, another re-upgrade thread is going to be made in like a day tops that would be covering exactly what we'd be talking about in this thread, and would essentially just undo all the changes we'd apply now, including revising an entire blog, etc.

I'd rather just wait until they bring their arguments to this thread.

You gonna become a supporter now?

I'll be requesting the removal of the opponent status as soon as the changes are applied, sure.

 

[Omnificence]

Because if we dont continue it here, another re-upgrade thread is going to be made in like a day tops that would be covering exactly what we'd be talking about in this thread, and would essentially just undo all the changes we'd apply now, including revising an entire blog, etc.

Of course someone's gonna make another re-upgrade thread after this; it's not like your proposed changes are gonna stay forever because not everyone here agrees with them. You both used this same method to downgrade both the Dream Stone and the Mario Bros cosmology, anyway, and even for this thread, it still has its flaws. Just because something takes the appearance of a "starry sky" doesn't automatically mean it IS one; none of the translations, statements, or context you provided even directly indicate or outright state the dreams ARE actually the size of 4-A structures. That's what I've been trying to tell you both.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Of course someone's gonna make another re-upgrade thread after this; it's not like your proposed changes are gonna stay forever because not everyone here agrees with them. You both used this same method to downgrade both the Dream Stone and the Mario Bros cosmology, anyway, and even for this thread, it still has its flaws. Just because something takes the appearance of a "starry sky" doesn't automatically mean it IS one; none of the translations, statements, or context you provided even directly indicate or outright state the dreams ARE actually the size of 4-A structures. That's what I've been trying to tell you both.

So you think it should be below 4-A? Because nothing indicates that dreams are any larger, either.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Pretty sure ya need to wait a few months before doing another CRT around the same topic

 

[Omnificence]

So you think it should be below 4-A? Because nothing indicates that dreams are any larger, either.

Well, when you put everything I said together, such as them having dimensions, space, time, and additional layers of reality whenever characters like Mario have nightmares in them, it should. It doesn't make them universal in size, but it would make it larger than you think; that's what I've been trying to tell you multiple times, but you just didn't get it. And the calculations made to create or destroy a dimension only result in the energy to do either, not the actual size of a dimension of a starry sky.

i mentioned it earlier but like
3-B's value specifically comes from destroying 2 galaxies which are, well, intergalactic distances apart. that's how inverse square law works. (the same value is used for creation, too)
if things aren't demonstrably that far apart, then... y'know, there's no reason to use that, is there?

See what I mean? Like, have any of you even bothered to find the size of a sky with stars based upon the diameter of the stars and distance between them, which on average is 5 light years between two?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, when you put everything I said together, such as them having dimensions, space, time, and additional layers of reality whenever characters like Mario have nightmares in them, it should. It doesn't make them universal in size, but it would make it larger than you think; that's what I've been trying to tell you multiple times, but you just didn't get it. And the calculations made to create or destroy a dimension only result in the energy to do either, not the actual size of a dimension of a starry sky.

See what I mean? Like, have any of you even bothered to find the size of a sky with stars based upon the diameter of the stars and distance between them, which on average is 5 light years between two?

We've been over this, dimensions and space-time wouldn't make dreams any larger. A 4-A realm is 4-A regardless of whether or not it has space and time.

 

[Omnificence]

We've been over this, dimensions and space-time wouldn't make dreams any larger. A 4-A realm is 4-A regardless of whether or not it has space and time.

That still doesn't mean a dream IS the size of it. Nothing in the translations or the statements you provided directly imply that dreams ARE the size of universes. How many times have I told you that?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

[...] and additional layers of reality whenever characters like Mario have nightmares in them, [...]

This one is a misconception. Characters can indeed dream within a dream world, but there's no evidence that doing so creates additional layers of reality in that dream world, because that's not how the Dream Depot works. The Dream Depot turns dreams into dream worlds that it creates and puts as part of its collection. The dream world has no reason to be placed within another dream world instead of being placed separately. The dream having been dreamed within a dream world is irrelevant to the fact that the Dream Depot creates dream worlds, not extra layers within pre-existing dream worlds.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Why bother continuing? You have the votes to get the downgrades passed, and we're outvoted; just apply them. I'm done trying to reason with you. You got what you wanted; are you happy now? I'm not upset.

Well, when you put everything I said together, such as them having dimensions, space, time, and additional layers of reality whenever characters like Mario have nightmares in them, it should. It doesn't make them universal in size, but it would make it larger than you think; that's what I've been trying to tell you multiple times, but you just didn't get it. And the calculations made to create or destroy a dimension only result in the energy to do either, not the actual size of a dimension of a starry sky.

See what I mean? Like, have any of you even bothered to find the size of a sky with stars based upon the diameter of the stars and distance between them, which on average is 5 light years between two?

Hey JT, I don't want to sound like an asshole here but could you possibly cut back your passive aggressive attitude towards Fuji and Kirbo in this thread please? Because you can disagree with the thread as much as the next guy, no one's going to put you down for having disagreements, but you should honestly stop acting like the two killed Mario or something crazy like that.

Like....either this thread gets accepted and DDM and Star can just make a thread to reupgrade Mario back to where it was, or the thread remains and we all just wait for both of them to respond to Kirbo and Fuji's arguments. Regardless of what happens, just don't make sound like a big deal is all I'm suggesting you know?

 

[Omnificence]

Like....either this thread gets accepted and DDM and Star can just make a thread to reupgrade Mario back to where it was, or the thread remains and we all just wait for both of them to respond to Kirbo and Fuji's arguments. Regardless of what happens, just don't make sound like a big deal is all I'm suggesting you know?

Look, I don't care if this thread gets accepted or not; I'm not upset regardless. All I'm suggesting as a compromise is to just apply the changes and allow DDM and the others to gather the scans for the refutes since this proposal has the votes to be applied. I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive here, I was trying to reason with Kirb and Fuji looking at all this from logical perspectives.

 

[SeijiSetto]

And the calculations made to create or destroy a dimension only result in the energy to do either, not the actual size of a dimension of a starry sky.

the calcs made to create/destroy a dimension of a given size depend on the dimension's size.
if a dimension is shown to have a starry sky in it, it's 4-A because the calculation uses the distance between stars visible in the night sky.
if a dimension is shown to have multiple galaxies in it, it's 3-B because the calculation for that uses the distance between galaxies.

you wouldn't use the 4-A calc for a dimension big enough to hold multiple galaxies, nor would you use the 3-B calc for one only big enough for a starry sky.

the energy to create/destroy a pocket dimension is dependent on its size.

 

[Omnificence]

the calcs made to create/destroy a dimension of a given size depend on the dimension's size.
if a dimension is shown to have a starry sky in it, it's 4-A because the calculation uses the distance between stars visible in the night sky.
if a dimension is shown to have multiple galaxies in it, it's 3-B because the calculation for that uses the distance between galaxies.

you wouldn't use the 4-A calc for a dimension big enough to hold multiple galaxies, nor would you use the 3-B calc for one only big enough for a starry sky.

the energy to create/destroy a pocket dimension is dependent on its size.

Even still, it shouldn't mean that the dreams ARE the size of starry skies because no translations or statements in this thread outright imply they are.

I never suggested these starry skies contained galaxies or anything like that; all I suggested is they might contain more than just 2,500 stars. And with that number of stars paired with the size of them and the average distance between them should suggest something bigger. And besides, the nebulae the skies can have should add on to the size since nebulae can be a lightyear in size.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Look, I don't care if this thread gets accepted or not; I'm not upset regardless. All I'm suggesting as a compromise is to just apply the changes and allow DDM and the others to gather the scans for the refutes. I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive here, I was trying to reason with Kirb and Fuji looking at all this from logical perspectives.

You can make a compromise with the two as much as you want, but when you're saying crap like "Why bother continuing?" or "Are you happy now?" because the thread might be accepted before Star and DDM can reply back or constantly chatising Fuji and Kirbo for not listening to stuff you've proposed because they already disagree with it, it adds nothing to the discussion at hand and can be interpreted as being passive aggressive.

Like I said, just chill out and either wait for DDM and Star to make their replies or wait for them to make a re upgrade thread in the future...there's no point in taking it seriously

 

[SeijiSetto]

Even still, it shouldn't mean that the dreams ARE the size of starry skies because no translations or statements in this thread outright imply they are.

it's a bare minimum based on the fact that there is a starry sky visible, and nothing implies bigger.

I never suggested these starry skies contained galaxies or anything like that; all I suggested is they might contain more than just 2,500 stars.

the standard 4-A starry sky calc treats it like an omnidirectional explosion. adding more stars won't really increase that yield because, y'know, omnidirectional.

 

[Omnificence]

You can make a compromise with the two as much as you want, but when you're saying crap like "Why bother continuing?" or "Are you happy now?" because the thread might be accepted before Star and DDM can reply back or constantly chatising Fuji and Kirbo for not listening to stuff you've proposed because they already disagree with it, it adds nothing to the discussion at hand and can be interpreted as being passive aggressive.

Like I said, just chill out and either wait for DDM and Star to make their replies or wait for them to make a re upgrade thread in the future...there's no point in taking it seriously

Fine then, I'm done reasoning, anyway; and I've already sent an apology to Kirb and Fuji, so I don't hold anything against them

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

It doesn't make them universal in size, but it would make it larger than you think; that's what I've been trying to tell you multiple times, but you just didn't get it.

I was wondering, is the following diagram that I put together at least similar to what you have in mind?

 

[Omnificence]

I was wondering, is the following diagram that I put together at least similar to what you have in mind?

Yeah, something like that. Good job.