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Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

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CloverDragon03 said:
I understand what JT's saying, but unfortunately, that would just place it unquantifiably above the 4-A calculation. We'd need the presence of galaxies and such for any higher rating
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Well, at least you finally get what I was trying to say. How big would the image make it in diameter, though? And how much above the 4-A calc?
 
JTGamer96 said:
Well, at least you finally get what I was trying to say. How big would the image make it in diameter, though? And how much above the 4-A calc?
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It can't really be quantified, because the exact amount of space between the extra space and the area with the starry sky is a complete unknown
 
CloverDragon03 said:
If you mean the one James put, no. It's just meant to represent your general idea, but he's even mentioned many times that it's not to scale
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What if I made a calculation based upon the size of a starry sky combined with the distance from it to Pi'illo Island and tried to find the total area of the island?
 
Isn't Pi'illo Island in a completely different dimension from the Dream World?

And I don't think Pi'illo Island is especially large from what I've seen
 
James_Plays_4_Games said:
I was wondering, is the following diagram that I put together at least similar to what you have in mind?
Click to expand...

Is this not how everyone here generally envisions dream worlds? It’s a space with a starry sky and a location that Mario and Luigi in.

It’s also still 4A because none of the components here combined could even get close to being more than 4A. Like, calculating the size of an island relative to the distance from the starry sky isn’t going to give a massive boost to the calculation or size of these realms. We’re dealing with massive cosmic scopes here, an islands area isn’t adding anything of note at all.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I understand what JT's saying, but unfortunately, that would just place it unquantifiably above the 4-A calculation. We'd need the presence of galaxies and such for any higher rating
Click to expand...
CloverDragon03 said:
It can't really be quantified, because the exact amount of space between the extra space and the area with the starry sky is a complete unknown
Click to expand...
CloverDragon03 said:
It can't really be quantified, because the exact amount of space between the extra space and the area with the starry sky is a complete unknown
Click to expand...
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Is this not how everyone here generally envisions dream worlds? It’s a space with a starry sky and a location that Mario and Luigi in.

It’s also still 4A because none of the components here combined could even get close to being more than 4A. Like, calculating the size of an island relative to the distance from the starry sky isn’t going to give a massive boost to the calculation or size of these realms. We’re dealing with massive cosmic scopes here, an islands area isn’t adding anything of note at all.
Click to expand...
Armorchompy said:
That is indeed how starry sky dimensions are assumed to be, i think

very cute diagram though, i appreciate the "not to scale"
Click to expand...
I'm still open to calculate this if you guys don't have a problem with that.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, bump.
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Okay, no offense, but can we please stop bumping this thread? And I'm asking this in a mature way this time.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm still working on it, also, It's preferable if it wasn't getting mass bumped; I know both sides have done that quite a bit. Likewise, StarSprite is also working on his with Mephistus' help. But if the thread fills up more, it just makes more work for the both of us.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's why I suggested we stop the bumping
 
Welp, here I am and thank you so much for waiting, (I should have posted this 2 days earlier but in no way i'm gonna argue with my phone, my pc was in the hands of my teacher to install solidworks), anyways
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:

The Future Dream Problem​

To get straight into it, viewing Future Dream as a full universe is flawed. Aside from there being little evidence in the first place, what’s present is very shaky or outright wrong, so let's get to it bit by bit, along with some new evidence.

The English Manual statement doesn’t really prove anything. Future Dream contains “... the wonders of the universe in this outer-space race for the stars!”. This isn’t an explicit statement of it being universal in size, nor containing ALL the universes’ wonders, just that it contains wonders of the universe. Many things can count as a “wonder” of the universe, our planet, Earth, is frankly a miracle wonder, as it's the only fully inhabitable planet we’ve found yet. A solar system is a wonder of the universe, a galaxy is a wonder of the universe. This specific phrase doesn’t really prove that Future Dream is universal in size, just that it contains celestial bodies from the universe. Considering what’s visible within all depictions of Future Dream is at least a Multi-Solar System sized space, that would qualify for a “wonder of the universe”.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, this is kinda a nitpicky argument for the sake of disagreeing, relying on “it could be”, “it might be” which surely enjoys dancing on the line of semantics. While yeah, the statement in the manual might not explicitly spell out “universe in size” for you (I beg to differ but whatever), your attempt to diminish the significance of the phrase “wonders of the universe” is like saying a glimpse into someone’s luxurious house only qualifies as a peek into their guest bathroom, like seriously, if I’m being invited into a house and the owner shows me his entire house from the inside (such as rooms, mobility, etc), then he is showing me the “luxury of his home”. And so, if I’m in an actual space with stars and other celestial bodies and someone mentions the “wonders of the universe”, then this, indeed, is a universe, especially if we take into account this a future dream about the future, and time itself is a universal concept encompassing all space. Other parallel dream world orbs in the Dream Depot are shown to hold multiple galaxies with space between the galaxies inside. It’s very odd to say this is a pocket dimension with a very specific size that contains all the wonders of the entire universe (this reliance on assumptions is ensnared by the fallacy of hasty generalization when you’re jumping to conclusions and trying to confine the dream within arbitrary limits), and yes, Earth is pretty remarkable, but don’t mistake a single room for the entirety of a mansion, “the wonders of the universe” implies a range that goes beyond the confines of a single planet or a galaxy. The manual explicitly mentioned "the wonders," not "some wonders," making it clear that it refers to the complete set rather than some, the attempts to contextualize it in an oddly specific range despite the use of "the" showcases a reaching on your part. Your insistence on confining it to a Multi-Solar System sized space is like saying you’ve seen the whole ocean by splashing around in a pool, because you’re committing a fallacy of equivocation by trying to downplay the significance of this phrase. Comparing it to Earth or the Milky Way is like comparing a backyard garden to the Amazon rainforest, because when people mention the wonders of the universe, they don't mean it as a specific zone but rather the entire universe, since there are sooo much more wonders in the universe than in a single solar system and perhaps the numbers of wonders in that implied range doesn't even scratch the surface of 1% of the wonders of the universe, it literally diminishes the depth of the expression.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No character ever refers to Future Dream as a universe in size. In the English translation of the game, it's pretty explicitly referred to as a galaxy, which is why the Japanese text is used. However, the JPN text also doesn’t refer to Future Dream as a universe either. When introducing Future Dream, Eldstar refers to it as a dream made up of “dreams of space”, using “uchuu no yume (うちゅうのユメ)”. Uchuu is an infamous and contentious word within versus debating, as it's very general, and has a multitude of meanings of varying size, with its main meaning being “space”, but it can also be used for “universe”, or “cosmos”, among other things. Uchuu on its own isn’t definitive proof of universal size, and is just a blanket term to refer to space / being in space. To further this point, Misstar, when speaking to whoever was the Super Star of Future Dream, refers to it as a “dream of space”, using “uchuu no yume” again, continuing the non-specific size. The lack of a specific size could be part of why the English translation just called it a Galaxy and left it at that.
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Apologies for any bubble bursting, but the eng ver also referred it as a dream of the universe, so no need to say stuff like that as if it helps. Plus your argument heavily relies on the fallacy of ambiguity, particularly when interpreting the terms "wonders of the universe" and "uchuu" by conveniently narrowing down the scope to a Multi-Solar System size and playing with vague interpretations to suit a certain narrative. Again, the name "Future Dream" and the cosmic setting suggests that the individual dreamer envisioned their future extending beyond Earth's horizons. This is seen in the Japanese translation as a dream of the future. Commonly, the concept of the future pertains to a universal scale, considering time on a way larger canvas rather than being limited to a specific net of space-time, and by consistently calling dream worlds in Mario other worlds from his, I think this alludes to something bigger than a specific size of space.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
However, the death blow to this would be what’s present in the Official Japanese only guide for Mario Party 5. Within the Future Dream section of the guide, sates:

"In Future Dream, you can experience what it's like to go on a journey through space. Run around the inside of a space floating in space and master using rockets and transportation devices."

What’s notable, is that this guide doesn’t just use the blanket term “uchuu (宇宙 )”, which can mean many things, it uses “uchuu kuukan (宇宙空間 )”, which very explicitly only means “outer space”. Not the universe, just outer space. Just flat out saying “outer space” isn’t enough to qualify as universal in any power scaling site.

So, in total, Future Dream has never been referred to as a universe, only having been referred to with vague terms of “space” or “outer space”, it has only visually been shown to contain a Multi-Solar System sized space, with any other arguments being massive extrapolations.

Considering that Future Dream currently stands as the only proof that Dreams can be universal in size, without it standing as proof of universal dreams, there is simply no other evidence for dreams being universal. Effectively, this kills any arguments for Mario’s Cosmology being 2A, or even 2B. Before we discuss where the verse’s god tiers and cosmology would land, let's discuss some other notable arguments that need coverage..
Click to expand...
How exactly does this decisively settle the matter? No seriously, I'm genuinely confused as it neither definitively proves nor disproves anything. Well, the fact that the universe countain outer space (for most folks, the universe pretty much IS outer space) isn't exactly groundbreaking news. Not sure why you insist on using “death blow” and “explicitly”, what kanji a guide used doesn’t really define the kanji used in the game anyway. If anything uchuu is the most common word for universe, not space. Kuukan is the most common word for space, people are commonly using the terms "outer space" and “the universe" interchangeably in everyday usage (even discussions about the size of outer space often gravitate towards the universe's size instead). Outer Space is just a way to refer to the universe as a whole. That's literally what it means, basically the wider reaches of space beyond our atmosphere, but hey let's play with devil's advocate and try to argue with stricter definitions (based on multiple websites), "outer space" is everything that is beyond Earth's atmosphere emphasizing the physical expanse between celestial bodies, aka the near-vacuum that separates planets, stars and galaxies while the universe is comprising all galaxies, stars, planets, and other cosmic structures. It includes both observable and unobservable regions. The term outer space and the universe are roughly equivalent, except that outer space case by case refers only to the area between celestial bodies, while the universe encompasses planets as well. And when considering Future Dream, where celestial bodies and nebulae are observable, it implies that the outer-space in this case contains more than mere empty space. The existence of celestial bodies within Future Dream means a broader cosmic range that supports the definition of universe more, plus Future Dream cannot be confined just empty space between celestial bodies that is beyond earth, since it features in-Earth mini-games and locales mirroring Mario's planet Earth.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
In a recent translation by HakanaiBlue, a trustworthy translator, and translation checking from Agnaa, someone familiar with proofreading translations on VSBW, especially within a versus context, the Japanese statement by Eldstar has been found to go as such:

“"Welcome to Future Dream! This is a world created from "dreams of space."

"Everyone holds a yearning for space. We'll have an exciting time within those unending dreams!"

("endless" is also a valid interpretation over “unending”)
Agnaa (here and here) has pointed out that while Future Dream is called “endless/unending”, it doesn't necessarily mean that in a spatial sense. While most initially believed this statement implied infinite spatial size, upon looking further into the context, he agrees that Eldstar is likely referring to Future Dream in the sense that it will last forever. Hakanai has also specified that it uses the phrase “endless/unending dream”, which uses the term “Hatenai yume (はてないユメ)”.

Hatenai yume isn’t the most frequently used phrase, and interpretation wise its usage for unending / endless dreams can be meant both in terms of it going on eternally, the dream never stopping to exist because people always dream of space, or the dream being spatially infinite. However, considering the context of what Eldstar is speaking of, the former makes much more sense. He’s speaking about a dream that’s created from many dreams, and that EVERYONE holds a yearning for space. The sentence reads much better as him saying that they’ll have a great time within the dreams that will never end, as people are always dreaming of space. If they wanted to be more clear with the interpretation of this being an infinite space spatially, it would be more clear to refer to it as an infinite world, or even infinite space. But instead he calls them unending dreams.

Overall, the interpretation of Future Dream being infinite in size simply doesn’t hold up, and honestly, a universe being infinite in size should require a bit more evidence than something as vague as this anyways.
Click to expand...
First of all, dream worlds are already realities, they don't need more dreams to continue existing, because this goes against the established narrative of the game. It would mean Bowser's plan and the cast's efforts and the star spirits' concern are pointless, as the dream world would still exist and go back to normal if everyone's dreams kept forming it, going by your logic. Seriously, the argument that dream worlds can suddenly disappear when there are no more dreams that somehow "feed it" is headcanon and no character ever refers to the dream worlds as temporal and such. MP5 ending further opposes this claim, since it shows dreams turning into orbs in the game and there is no visual representation of dreams feeding the dream world or something. This means that they don't rely on a continuous influx of dreams to persist. You may ask why they would show that, the answer is simple, by your logic, it's a very important plot point that the dreams of everyone submerge into a dream world and such a plot point needs support and this would fall under hitchen's razor and occam's razor. No offense, but some of the arguments heavily rely on the fallacy of ambiguity. Plus, if you have played or fully viewed Mario Party 5, you would notice a board being Koopa's Dream, created from Bowser's dream only, so the argument of a single dream world needing everyone in the universe's dreams in order to be created seems like a stretch and lacks evidence. Because if a single dream, like Bowser's, can manifest an entire dream world independently, it contradicts the notion that every dream in the universe collectively contributes to forming Future Dream. Eldstar's statement that everyone has a longing for the universe does not imply that this dream is made of everyone's desires for the universe. It's akin to presenting a drawing to someone and stating "everyone likes drawing," which doesn't imply that everyone contributed to that specific drawing. In short, The statement acknowledges similar desires for the universe but falls short of confirming the direct involvement in creating the dream world itself as just like not everyone who appreciates art contributes to a specific painting, not everyone's vision of the universe contributes directly to this dream world. Adding to this is SMB2 USA, where it said there is a Subcon for every single dream people see, which accentuates the flaw in the argument that the dream world necessitates the amalgamation of everyone's dreams. To conclude, applying "endless" to describe spatial size is reasonable really, especially when it comes after words like "within"/"inside," which mainly imply dimension or size, so suggests a boundless (which btw is another meaning for the "hatenai" term) expanse.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Dreams containing entire dimensions is notable, but not particularly relevant. As per our universe standards, dimensions can qualify as universes but only if they possess sufficient size; As in, a dimension with size comparable to our own universe would, of course, be a universe, but would not be a universe if it was only shown to contain a starry sky. It’s a similar case for the space-time argument; Being a space-time continuum is all well and good, but it ultimately means nothing if the space in question is not demonstrably universe sized.
Click to expand...
This is a bit nitpicky and honestly sounds like a forced argument, but it doesn’t matter when in the sequel of M&L Dream Team, Paper Jam, referred to a parallel universe as another dimension, (plus there is a revision thread to make non universe sized space-time continuum tier 2 but it's paused until further notice and after they take care of tier1 )
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This is somewhat of an aside, as the arguments above present a comprehensive case as to why Future Dream is not a universe, but this section is still needed as a secondary argument in case any of the points raised here are brought up in the thread itself. Future Dream is currently interpreted as being one person’s dream. However, this isn’t necessarily the case. As newer and more accurate translations have shown, Future Dream is the collective of all dreams about the universe (“dreams” is said plurally); Basically, if you and I were to have two separate dreams about the universe, they wouldn’t be separate dreams at all - they’d both make up the greater “whole” that is Future Dream.
Click to expand...

It is necessarily the case, the fact you were trying to explain the meaning of words before but overlooked a crucial aspect of the Japanese language, it in fact doesn't inherently distinguish between singular and plural forms in its writing system. and yes, it means that both singular and plural interpretations are as valid as each other, it just now depends on the context to determine the intended meaning since jap is a heavy context dependent language. Oh and btw, the plural use of "dreams" automatically implies a collective of all dreams about the universe is not really true without linguistic support (arguably) and the lack of explicit statements and visuals supporting this claim weakens the argument, and it doesn’t help when we have dream world created from Bowser’s dream:
"Welcome to Bowser-Dream! What a place this is! It's a world born from Bowser’s dream'!"
Not only that, but I noticed something: “We'll have an exciting time within those unending dreams!", this doesn’t make sense at all, how can they have fun within multiple dreams if said dreams no longer exist independently because they’re merged into a singular dream world? It is akin to pointing at Gogeta, a fusion of two characters, and insisting on treating him as two separate individuals when, objectively, he is a singular entity and he himself points that out. By another analogy, consider a tube containing ester and water, and labeling it as an "alcohol and acid" tube, disregarding chemistry (assuming a total reaction). Moreover, Eldstar's use of the phrase "those dreams" while being situated within a consistent space implies a singular dream rather than a multitude, which makes something like “this dream” more believable. And even then, this would also raise multiple questions and loopholes, Dream Depot is supposed to store dreams and turn them into reality (thus why it's called Dream Depot), merging them into an amalgamation defeats the purpose. Some dreams are not the same, since they vary significantly, and merging them indiscriminately risks ruining the distinct elements that make each dream special (and their purpose in the game is to watch over dreams and protect them). What makes us think that the contents within dreams won't be screwed by another dream? Why assume everyone dreams about a space station when envisioning the universe? Why would Toy Dream contain a specific set of toys, that would be not logical considering many people have different tastes in toys (especially since there are uncountable types of toys), or Sweet Dream, which is supposed to be a combination of people's dreams about candy, only have gateau? Like, multiple dreams from multiple people and only gateau and in a garden? This kind of choice of a specific set of toys or a singular type of sweet, like gateau, seems oddly specific and might align more with the preferences of a particular dreamer rather than encompassing the varied dreams of a diverse universal population.
Bowser’s wish about fighting a strong opponent had him form his own dream world to fight the player’s chosen character out of the cast along with the other dream world of his being visited prior to traveling there, with the notion that an individual's wish can form a new dream world based on that desire or aspiration.
We have examples of universal sized wishes, desires, aspirations in the series by singular characters that can form the size of a personal dream world, along with dreams being made via the dreamer’s depth of their personal imagination:

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The obvious problem that stems from this new translation is how regular dreams would scale to Future Dream; If Future Dream is made of multiple dreams, then no singular dream can be equal to Future Dream. In that same line of reasoning, no individual component of something made of multiple pieces can be equal to its entirety - Or in other words, 1 cannot equal 2, 3, or so on, because it is one component of several. To scale one dream to Future Dream is to, in effect, argue against basic mathematics.

This still raises the question of what to do about the Mario Party 5 ending, which depicts each dream as an orb relative in size to one another, including Future Dream. While there’s not much that can be said about that, the logical issue presented above should take precedence; The visuals presented in MP5 are not absolute, and if they lead to logical paradoxes like “1 >/= 2”, then we can’t really let that slide.
Click to expand...
Wait hold on, are you serious? You literally put "what's shown in the game isn't absolute due to my interpretation saying otherwise", is there evidence that dream world size depends on the number of the dreams? This is a misapplication of mathematics, Dreams are not quantifiable entities that adhere to mathematical principles like numerical values, and like you said, it's amalgamation, it combines things, which doesn't necessarily make it bigger or something anyways.(ok after re-reading this sounds a bit rushed but eh)
 
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Starsprite53 said:
Welp, here I am and thank you so much for waiting, (I should have posted this 2 days earlier but in no way i'm gonna argue with my phone, my pc was in the hands of my teacher to install solidworks), anyways

With all due respect, this is kinda a nitpicky argument for the sake of disagreeing, relying on “it could be”, “it might be” which surely enjoys dancing on the line of semantics. While yeah, the statement in the manual might not explicitly spell out “universe in size” for you (I beg to differ but whatever), your attempt to diminish the significance of the phrase “wonders of the universe” is like saying a glimpse into someone’s luxurious house only qualifies as a peek into their guest bathroom, like seriously, if I’m being invited into a house and the owner shows me his entire house from the inside (such as rooms, mobility, etc), then he is showing me the “luxury of his home”. And so, if I’m in an actual space with stars and other celestial bodies and someone mentions the “wonders of the universe”, then this, indeed, is a universe, especially if we take into account this a future dream about the future, and time itself is a universal concept encompassing all space. Other parallel dream world orbs in the Dream Depot are shown to hold multiple galaxies with space between the galaxies inside. It’s very odd to say this is a pocket dimension with a very specific size that contains all the wonders of the entire universe (this reliance on assumptions is ensnared by the fallacy of hasty generalization when you’re jumping to conclusions and trying to confine the dream within arbitrary limits), and yes, Earth is pretty remarkable, but don’t mistake a single room for the entirety of a mansion, “the wonders of the universe” implies a range that goes beyond the confines of a single planet or a galaxy. The manual explicitly mentioned "the wonders," not "some wonders," making it clear that it refers to the complete set rather than some, the attempts to contextualize it in an oddly specific range despite the use of "the" showcases a reaching on your part. Your insistence on confining it to a Multi-Solar System sized space is like saying you’ve seen the whole ocean by splashing around in a pool, because you’re committing a fallacy of equivocation by trying to downplay the significance of this phrase. Comparing it to Earth or the Milky Way is like comparing a backyard garden to the Amazon rainforest, because when people mention the wonders of the universe, they don't mean it as a specific zone but rather the entire universe, since there are sooo much more wonders in the universe than in a single solar system and perhaps the numbers of wonders in that implied range doesn't even scratch the surface of 1% of the wonders of the universe, it literally diminishes the depth of the expression.

Apologies for any bubble bursting, but the eng ver also referred it as a dream of the universe, so no need to say stuff like that as if it helps. Plus your argument heavily relies on the fallacy of ambiguity, particularly when interpreting the terms "wonders of the universe" and "uchuu" by conveniently narrowing down the scope to a Multi-Solar System size and playing with vague interpretations to suit a certain narrative. Again, the name "Future Dream" and the cosmic setting suggests that the individual dreamer envisioned their future extending beyond Earth's horizons. This is seen in the Japanese translation as a dream of the future. Commonly, the concept of the future pertains to a universal scale, considering time on a way larger canvas rather than being limited to a specific net of space-time, and by consistently calling dream worlds in Mario other worlds from his, I think this alludes to something bigger than a specific size of space.

How exactly does this decisively settle the matter? No seriously, I'm genuinely confused as it neither definitively proves nor disproves anything. Well, the fact that the universe countain outer space (for most folks, the universe pretty much IS outer space) isn't exactly groundbreaking news. Not sure why you insist on using “death blow” and “explicitly”, what kanji a guide used doesn’t really define the kanji used in the game anyway. If anything uchuu is the most common word for universe, not space. Kuukan is the most common word for space, people are commonly using the terms "outer space" and “the universe" interchangeably in everyday usage (even discussions about the size of outer space often gravitate towards the universe's size instead). Outer Space is just a way to refer to the universe as a whole. That's literally what it means, basically the wider reaches of space beyond our atmosphere, but hey let's play with devil's advocate and try to argue with stricter definitions (based on multiple websites), "outer space" is everything that is beyond Earth's atmosphere emphasizing the physical expanse between celestial bodies, aka the near-vacuum that separates planets, stars and galaxies while the universe is comprising all galaxies, stars, planets, and other cosmic structures. It includes both observable and unobservable regions. The term outer space and the universe are roughly equivalent, except that outer space case by case refers only to the area between celestial bodies, while the universe encompasses planets as well. And when considering Future Dream, where celestial bodies and nebulae are observable, it implies that the outer-space in this case contains more than mere empty space. The existence of celestial bodies within Future Dream means a broader cosmic range that supports the definition of universe more, plus Future Dream cannot be confined just empty space between celestial bodies that is beyond earth, since it features in-Earth mini-games and locales mirroring Mario's planet Earth.

First of all, dream worlds are already realities, they don't need more dreams to continue existing, because this goes against the established narrative of the game. It would mean Bowser's plan and the cast's efforts and the star spirits' concern are pointless, as the dream world would still exist and go back to normal if everyone's dreams kept forming it, going by your logic. Seriously, the argument that dream worlds can suddenly disappear when there are no more dreams that somehow "feed it" is headcanon and no character ever refers to the dream worlds as temporal and such. MP5 ending further opposes this claim, since it shows dreams turning into orbs in the game and there is no visual representation of dreams feeding the dream world or something. This means that they don't rely on a continuous influx of dreams to persist. You may ask why they would show that, the answer is simple, by your logic, it's a very important plot point that the dreams of everyone submerge into a dream world and such a plot point needs support and this would fall under hitchen's razor and occam's razor. No offense, but some of the arguments heavily rely on the fallacy of ambiguity. Plus, if you have played or fully viewed Mario Party 5, you would notice a board being Koopa's Dream, created from Bowser's dream only, so the argument of a single dream world needing everyone in the universe's dreams in order to be created seems like a stretch and lacks evidence. Because if a single dream, like Bowser's, can manifest an entire dream world independently, it contradicts the notion that every dream in the universe collectively contributes to forming Future Dream. Eldstar's statement that everyone has a longing for the universe does not imply that this dream is made of everyone's desires for the universe. It's akin to presenting a drawing to someone and stating "everyone likes drawing," which doesn't imply that everyone contributed to that specific drawing. In short, The statement acknowledges similar desires for the universe but falls short of confirming the direct involvement in creating the dream world itself as just like not everyone who appreciates art contributes to a specific painting, not everyone's vision of the universe contributes directly to this dream world. Adding to this is SMB2 USA, where it said there is a Subcon for every single dream people see, which accentuates the flaw in the argument that the dream world necessitates the amalgamation of everyone's dreams. To conclude, applying "endless" to describe spatial size is reasonable really, especially when it comes after words like "within"/"inside," which mainly imply dimension or size, so suggests a boundless (which btw is another meaning for the "hatenai" term) expanse.

This is a bit nitpicky and honestly sounds like a forced argument, but it doesn’t matter when in the sequel of M&L Dream Team, Paper Jam, referred to a parallel universe as another dimension, (plus there is a revision thread to make non universe sized space-time continuum tier 2 but it's paused until further notice and after they take care of tier1 )


It is necessarily the case, the fact you were trying to explain the meaning of words before but overlooked a crucial aspect of the Japanese language, it in fact doesn't inherently distinguish between singular and plural forms in its writing system. and yes, it means that both singular and plural interpretations are as valid as each other, it just now depends on the context to determine the intended meaning since jap is a heavy context dependent language. Oh and btw, the plural use of "dreams" automatically implies a collective of all dreams about the universe is not really true without linguistic support (arguably) and the lack of explicit statements and visuals supporting this claim weakens the argument, and it doesn’t help when we have dream world created from Bowser’s dream:
"Welcome to Bowser-Dream! What a place this is! It's a world born from Bowser’s dream'!"
Not only that, but I noticed something: “We'll have an exciting time within those unending dreams!", this doesn’t make sense at all, how can they have fun within multiple dreams if said dreams no longer exist independently because they’re merged into a singular dream world? It is akin to pointing at Gogeta, a fusion of two characters, and insisting on treating him as two separate individuals when, objectively, he is a singular entity and he himself points that out. By another analogy, consider a tube containing ester and water, and labeling it as an "alcohol and acid" tube, disregarding chemistry (assuming a total reaction). Moreover, Eldstar's use of the phrase "those dreams" while being situated within a consistent space implies a singular dream rather than a multitude, which makes something like “this dream” more believable. And even then, this would also raise multiple questions and loopholes, Dream Depot is supposed to store dreams and turn them into reality (thus why it's called Dream Depot), merging them into an amalgamation defeats the purpose. Some dreams are not the same, since they vary significantly, and merging them indiscriminately risks ruining the distinct elements that make each dream special (and their purpose in the game is to watch over dreams and protect them). What makes us think that the contents within dreams won't be screwed by another dream? Why assume everyone dreams about a space station when envisioning the universe? Why would Toy Dream contain a specific set of toys, that would be not logical considering many people have different tastes in toys (especially since there are uncountable types of toys), or Sweet Dream, which is supposed to be a combination of people's dreams about candy, only have gateau? Like, multiple dreams from multiple people and only gateau and in a garden? This kind of choice of a specific set of toys or a singular type of sweet, like gateau, seems oddly specific and might align more with the preferences of a particular dreamer rather than encompassing the varied dreams of a diverse universal population.
Bowser’s wish about fighting a strong opponent had him form his own dream world to fight the player’s chosen character out of the cast along with the other dream world of his being visited prior to traveling there, with the notion that an individual's wish can form a new dream world based on that desire or aspiration.
We have examples of universal sized wishes, desires, aspirations in the series by singular characters that can form the size of a personal dream world, along with dreams being made via the dreamer’s depth of their personal imagination:


Wait hold on, are you serious? You literally put "what's shown in the game isn't absolute due to my interpretation saying otherwise", is there evidence that dream world size depends on the number of the dreams? This is a misapplication of mathematics, Dreams are not quantifiable entities that adhere to mathematical principles like numerical values, and like you said, it's amalgamation, it combines things, which doesn't necessarily make it bigger or something anyways.(ok after re-reading this sounds a bit rushed but eh)
Click to expand...
Great job. Whether that's correct or not, it looks like it required skillful thinking to write. 👍

My first message in this thread has a similar sentiment, but you seemingly explained it far better than I did due to more knowledge about available evidence and the Japanese language. I decided to summarize your explanation, in case you want the justification to be on character profiles or something like that without it being too long:

The Dream Depot is a magical place where realities get continuously created as a result of every individual's dreams and wishes coming true by those aspirations getting sent there every night, and it's important enough for the Star Spirits to guard it; to the standards of the Super Mario series, those details should indicate that the Dream Depot operates on a multiversal scale, as seen by how dream worlds are meant to be parallel to the real universe if they're based on it, most notably Future Dream having been made for the purpose of representing the beauty of the whole universe, and as supported by how characters such as Bowser have universal aspirations and have the potential to achieve them without the usage of dreamy magic.
 
By the way, the following evidence from "Super Paper Mario – Chapter 4-2: A Paper Emergency" is known for being important in this topic. Let's make sure to reach a conclusion about how it fits into the topic.
main-qimg-7fb662215cd13b44384e980ed83aa477-pjlq


Some questions to consider include:
  • Does the outer space in Super Paper Mario apply to the Dream Depot?
  • Was the usage of the word "dreams" meant literally or hyperbolically?
  • Does the alien count as a reliable source?
 
James_Plays_4_Games said:
Does the outer space in Super Paper Mario apply to the Dream Depot?
Click to expand...
This was covered in the OP. Even if Future Dream were infinite, it fundamentally wouldn't matter, since it is a composite of infinite dreams (since there are accepted to be an infinite number of dreams). That'd make Future Dream's size infinity/infinity, which is unquantifiable.
James_Plays_4_Games said:
Was the usage of the word "dreams" meant literally or hyperbolically?
Click to expand...
I think it's pretty obviously meant to be metaphorical; It's not that there are literally an infinite number of dreams filling this infinite space, but it's just an instance of the phrase "hopes and dreams" representing something ideal or to be strived for. That's how the phrase is most commonly used. For another example, one of the recent Touhou games has a cave said to be full of dreams, but that doesn't mean it is literally packed with dream worlds - just that whatever's in there is desirable.

Also, the response may take a little while longer, as Kirb's a bit busy with other things right now. Sorry for the wait.
 
James_Plays_4_Games said:
By the way, the following evidence from "Super Paper Mario – Chapter 4-2: A Paper Emergency" is known for being important in this topic. Let's make sure to reach a conclusion about how it fits into the topic.
main-qimg-7fb662215cd13b44384e980ed83aa477-pjlq


Some questions to consider include:
  • Does the outer space in Super Paper Mario apply to the Dream Depot?
  • Was the usage of the word "dreams" meant literally or hyperbolically?
  • Does the alien count as a reliable source?
Click to expand...
Alien is reliable since tippi confirms the exact words, also. This is High 3-A.
 
James_Plays_4_Games said:
By the way, the following evidence from "Super Paper Mario – Chapter 4-2: A Paper Emergency" is known for being important in this topic. Let's make sure to reach a conclusion about how it fits into the topic.
main-qimg-7fb662215cd13b44384e980ed83aa477-pjlq


Some questions to consider include:
  • Does the outer space in Super Paper Mario apply to the Dream Depot?
  • Was the usage of the word "dreams" meant literally or hyperbolically?
  • Does the alien count as a reliable source?
Click to expand...
This was discussed in OP, but it means that the World 4 Dimension in SPM is likely infinite in size, yes, but it’s not literally crammed full of dream worlds, so it’s pretty clearly metaphorically/hyperbolically. The alien is probably reliable enough in the scenario since he lives in space + Tippi’s statement after.
 
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