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For reference, this is the updated draft. As can be seen here, the matter of Galeem is pretty important
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Super Smash Bros Upgrades
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
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ShockingPsychic
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- #123
Late but Groudon was a Pokéball Pokémon in Brawl and is a Spirit in Ultimate, so they don't have to scale to Kyogre who scales to Groudon
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I forgot Groudon was a Poke Ball Pokemon in Brawl ngl
noninho
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From what I've understood, the groudon and kyogre thing was for 6-A
So the primids downscale to 6-A, now?
ShockingPsychic
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- #126
I remembered because it's on the back of the box, core memory
IIRC, Primids are spirits, meaning they could probably scale to Bomberman/Mauser's WoL feat of blowing up a boulder (which still needs calced as it scales to weaker, vesselless Spirits, which I need for a Rayquaza profile lol)
I think we either need to find a feat in Subspace to scale them to, scale them to Bomberman/Mauser, or downscale them from Smashets
Fodder is weird, idk if they'd scale
IIRC, Primids are spirits, meaning they could probably scale to Bomberman/Mauser's WoL feat of blowing up a boulder (which still needs calced as it scales to weaker, vesselless Spirits, which I need for a Rayquaza profile lol)
I think we either need to find a feat in Subspace to scale them to, scale them to Bomberman/Mauser, or downscale them from Smashets
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Pretty sure they'll just scale to the fighters, so High 6-A
noninho
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I'd like to know if I can put Raven against it so that's why I came here
But if it needs another calc/feat analysis, I'm derailing, so sorry (but let's see this later, please)
ShockingPsychic
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- #129
High 6-A seems pretty uncontroversial now
What about 3-A with Spirits? The shot with the Inklings show that Galeem's light physically destroys what it touches, so the arguement for it being transmutation is out the window
Then I havent seen any opposition to Low 2-C cuz Arceus shenanigans
Honestly? Shoutout to the Pokémon series for giving us all these feats lol
What about 3-A with Spirits? The shot with the Inklings show that Galeem's light physically destroys what it touches, so the arguement for it being transmutation is out the window
Then I havent seen any opposition to Low 2-C cuz Arceus shenanigans
Honestly? Shoutout to the Pokémon series for giving us all these feats lol
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Dharkon can physically affect time, so being able to physically destroy the universe including its time is likely, if Galeem is already accepted as being capable of physically destroying the universe. Galeem and Dharkon are physically comparable to each other, and they scale above Arceus, since they are both measured by the game to have better stats than it as Spirits, and Galeem defeated Arceus as evident by Arceus being a Spirit.
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We don't know how much effort it takes for Reshiram or Dialga to perform their Tier 6 or 2 feats, so why would we scale them to the casual attacks the fighters survive? Its not like they have a UESThis is useful information.Even if the text only was referring to Reshiram's range, it using that range would probably still scientifically result in multi-continental power.
Some people might think that there's one flaw in your idea that could render it as unusable. Reshiram might not use its full power. "In fact, legend has it that Reshiram's flames are capable of incinerating the world itself, so perhaps the world's continued safety is a sign of its goodwill.". Although Reshiram is "capable" of producing the power, "the world's continued safety is a sign of its goodwill", implies that it doesn't produce that power because it has morals and doesn't want to destroy the world as a result. It's possible that Reshiram can't use its full power without also producing collateral damage, so there's a possibility of the playable fighters not scaling to its full power.
My solution is for you to point out that fighters can survive Roar of Time from Dialga on the Spear Pillar stage. It can be considered as an attack that scales above Reshiram, because Dialga has more power stored than Reshiram yet needs to rest after using Roar of Time. Its trophy description contains the text: "Its fearsome Roar of Time attack is so powerful that it must refrain from attacking on the next turn.". Due to the magical nature of Roar of Time, collateral damage probably isn't a factor. You could also point out that Sephiroth destroys the world with the part of his Final Smash that the targets get hit by anyway, so even just that bit should scale above Reshiram.
Arceus creating the world shouldn't be durability because there's no UES either
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Why would we assume them to be holding back?
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Because Reshiram is not burning the world or covering it in flames, and you can't assume all of Dialga's attacks to be equal to whatever power it used to create time if there's no UES
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Ok, why would Reshiram's flames be equal to whatever attack is used to burn the world? Why is it that his regular attack is equal to his strongest feat which takes an unknown amount of effort?
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Because nothing points to it holding back. Also this “regular attack” it uses is actually Fusion Flare, one of its signature moves. Occam’s Razor would also point to it not holding back
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I'm not saying its holding back. If someone has a fire attack that takes a lot of effort to burn the world, we shouldn't assume its casual attacks to be equal unless there's evidence like a UES, or if it can hurt enemies who can survive said High 6-A attack. It being a "signature move" is like, not evidence of this scaling to his feat of burning the world
ShockingPsychic
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Yeah, if it's actively trying to harm the Smashers, why would it be holding back and start using weaker attacks? This also goes for its Spirit battle
Nothing says that it's holding back while attacking, just that it hasn't scorched the world yet. And don't we almost always scale all of a character's attacks to each other unless there's evidence supporting that one power is stronger than the others?
Nothing says that it's holding back while attacking, just that it hasn't scorched the world yet. And don't we almost always scale all of a character's attacks to each other unless there's evidence supporting that one power is stronger than the others?
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This is all just AOE Fallacy…
You also say you’re not saying Reshiram is holding back, yet you call these attacks “casual”
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I already explained my reasoning in the message that you quoted to ask the question, and I never claimed that the Roar of Time from Dialga is tier 2. I don't recall anyone else doing that either.
All of the measured stats of Galeem and Dharkon are superior to Arceus' according to their appearances as Spirits, so that's where I got my reasoning from. However, there isn't a measurement of hax, so if Arceus creating the world is only hax, then it probably doesn't count. However, this wasn't the only justification for Galeem and Dharkon being tier 2. Besides, in the trophy description of Arceus, it creating the "world" doesn't clearly indicate creating the "universe", so people are probably applying its original context to Super Smash Bros. anyway. I was just elaborating their logic.
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Bump
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I believe High 6-A for the base cast has been established, with Sephiroth and Marth/Lucina having Low 4-C Final Smashes (or 4-B if we go by Psychomaster's calc). All that really needs to be settled atm is the matter of Galeem, who I'm still in firm belief that Smash fighters amped by Spirits should scale to, and whose 3-A attack should scale to its normal moves
ShockingPsychic
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I am in agreement with CloverDragon
However I do think we should give all damaging Final Smashes at least a "higher, possibly Low 4-C/4-B with Final Smash" rating, as I think they should all be fairly equal given they share a power source
I think Galeem's durability should scale to his AP given the beams come from within his body, and this should scale to Spirit-amped Smashers
However I do think we should give all damaging Final Smashes at least a "higher, possibly Low 4-C/4-B with Final Smash" rating, as I think they should all be fairly equal given they share a power source
I think Galeem's durability should scale to his AP given the beams come from within his body, and this should scale to Spirit-amped Smashers
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If the characters getting hit by the edge of Sephiroth's Supernova counts as the devastating damage, it implies that them getting hit by the center would be far greater devastating damage. Following this logic, if every damaging Final Smash scales the center of the explosion in Sephiroth's Supernova, then every damaging Final Smash would K.O. at 0% damage because most Final Smashes are direct attacks towards the target, rather than the edge of an attack far away like with Sephiroth's Supernova that is still portrayed as causing devastating damage.
In your defense, Sephiroth's Supernova isn't as effective as most other damaging Final Smashes, but the gap between the power of the center of the explosion and the power of the part that damages the targets is too huge for me to believe that this is strong evidence, since the other damaging Final Smashes are only slightly superior in launch power and damage. A few of the damaging Final Smashes, such as Samus' Zero Laser, don't K.O. targets earlier than Sephiroth's Supernova anyway, so the argument that other Final Smashes use the full power of Supernova is faulty. On top of that, it can be reasonably argued that Sephiroth's Supernova is only lacking in launch power and damage compared to other Final Smashes for balancing purposes, since his Supernova also induces a status effect on the target. It's likely that the specifics aren't meant to be analyzed this closely, and that Sephiroth's Supernova is meant to be thought of as a powerful attack like most other Final Smashes, even though it only attacks with the edge of the explosion that it creates.
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My thing the other day with Galeem's attack wasn't really about it having force of not, I explained myself badly, it was that I don't think it works as an explosion with Galeem's at its epicenther.
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I don't see why though. It starts as a laser danmaku but by the end we see it become an expansion of light that encompasses the universe with Galeem at the epicenter.
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Yeah, I don't see why not.
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Alright, then if no one else has have any issues, then we could argue the Smash Fighters, plus the bosses, to possibly scale higher, since Mewtwo is considered to be arguably the strongest Pokémon in existence by Palutena. This matches with some of Mewtwo's trophy descriptions, saying that it's battle abilities have been radically heightened and was designed to be "the ultimate Pokémon". (Also for some reason, it wouldn't let me copy a link to the highlighted parts I wanted to link to.)
This would imply that Mewtwo, and by proxy everyone else who's either playable or a boss could scale to Dialga, Palkia, and Arceus, which helps strengthens the idea that everyone scales to them, as the OP proposed. And seeing as Galeem canonically claps everyone with ease, including those three mons, it wouldn't really affect the scaling all that much.
To make a long story short: We could argue everyone is 3-A possibly Low 2-C via Mewtwo.
Edit: I think I might've misread how Smash gets Low 2-C (Originally thought it was Arceus + the light and dark duo), so in case it's ONLY Galeem and Dharkon who scales to Low 2-C, then it would just be 3-A.
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I recall that people hype up Mewtwo's power in the Pokémon series the same way, yet we don't scale Mewtwo to those divine Pokémon in the main canon. I think Palutena was just referring to what some people say when they have never heard of Palkia, Dialga and Arceus. That's why she said "arguably". I think Palutena was referring to Mewtwo's high reputation, not its true power.
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A bit of an off topic note, but that actually might be changing since we're doing a massive revision on the Pokémon series.
Seeing as the trophy descriptions say more or less the same about how powerful it's suppose to be, it's not that big of a stretch to say that he does scale to them.
(Also a bit another side tangent, but seeing as Palkia, Dialga, and Arceus have Pokedex entries in the main canon, I highly doubt that they don't know about them, or at the very least Dialga and Palkia, when talking about Mewtwo. Anyways, that ultimately doesn't matter in this thread, so imma drop it.)
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Interesting. I still don't feel like it would be correct. Mewtwo was designed to be the ultimate Pokémon, but that is referring to how it was designed by humans and their perception of what "ultimate" is, within the setting of the Pokémon series. It's questionable to regard the humans as being able to replicate the power of the series' almighty entity like this. I don't know how Master Balls could do that, so maybe you're correct. I think this matter should be discussed more closely before we decide whether or not it should be applied to the pages.
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I have a nitpick on this, as Mewtwo was refered as such back in Gen 1. I think it's just a reference to those hype claims back then instead of powerscaling it above anything else, really.
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That's weak ass scaling for tier 2. What's even the reasoning for Arceus' power scaling to his physicals?
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Scaling from Dialga whose birth created time.
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Why would your birth scale to your physicals either
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It doesn't really matter if they were originally made for hype statements. Smash consistently says that Mewtwo is one of the most strongest, if not the strongest, Pokémon. Plus, this is more so to help justify the Smash Cast scaling to those three rather than it being the only reason why they would scale, seeing as they're capable of taking hits from them and fighting them in Spirit Battles.
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In the cases where Mewtwo is considered as one of the strongest Pokémon, this doesn't mean that its power is comparable to the divine three. Mewtwo's power could be fourth place, and vastly below the powers of the other three, while still being in the state of having the truthful reputation as one of the strongest Pokémon.
In the cases where Mewtwo is considered as the strongest Pokémon, the validity of that is questionable even though it comes from an official source, since this would mean that Mewtwo surpasses the creators of the universe he lives in, even though it was just genetically engineered to be the strongest by fallible prone humans. In-game during Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, Arceus can easily defeat Mewtwo using Gravity, and even the boost that Xerneas gives is significantly stronger than Mewtwo.
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Mewtwo is capable of surviving attacks from them in Smash, as well as fighting them in Spirit Boards. So the notion of Mewtwo being vastly below the power of those three doesn't make sense.
And? A lot of characters in fiction can surpass their creators. Heck, Pokémon has characters that can match Arceus. What makes this so different? And about the fallible prone humans part, that's overall irrelevant seeing as said humans are capable of making Master Balls, which can catch anything no diff. Heck, in Smash the trio in question are summoned via the Master Balls.
Refer to my first point for the Arceus part, and Xerneas being able to make Mewtwo stronger via an amp it gives doesn't really mean that Mewtwo isn't as strong as them. An amp's an amp.
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Are you sure that their maximum power applies to those moments? I saw some people skeptical about it in previous posts in this thread.
While it's true that a lot of characters in fiction can surpass their supreme creators, it defies logic, (which can also happen in fiction,) so I think it needs stronger contextual support than with typical power scaling, unless it's made obvious.
I meant that a different playable character that's amplified by Xerneas is easily capable of launching base Mewtwo off-screen to defeat it.
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