Super Smash Bros scaling changes and intelligence upgrades

[thetechmaster36]

I mean, if we rate the 3-A attack differently from their standard ratings, then yeah, I agree that Galeem and Dharkon should just upscale significantly from the Smash roster, since it's shown that they're working together in order to take down the big bads per the cutscene where the two of them pay notice to the cast.

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

"So smashers and spirits + universe = one shot by Galeem, but somehow smashers + some spirits are supposed to be on par with him. That doesn’t make any sense"
Smashers that have gained power from the skill tree + Spirits that have leveled up significant since being turned into spirits yes.
"Also there is literally someone on par with him, Dharkon, and both him and Dharkon are trying to kill each other 24/7, while the smashers are stealing their spirits thus causing their power to flux all over the place. I find it way more likely Galeem and Dharkon just accidentally kill each other, rather than the smashers being able to win despite how completely illogical it is." First I am pretty sure that it is because they were losing members of their army they lost territory not because they lost power.

"We should treat them scaling to Tabuu in the same way we treat people in JRPGs progressively eventually scaling to the Final Boss. In other words, I agree with Tabuu, because we have literal evidence they can at least somewhat hang with Tabuu, Master Hand, and comparable Bosses." There is evidence they grow in power during the world of light.

"how do we scale the fighters pre-Great Maze?" Primid? Maybe

"we already know the characters are somewhat comparable to Master Hand, as he sees them as worthy foes (mentioned in some of his trophies) and the fact they are confident in taking at the very least of his clones head-on at the beginning of World of Light (throw him being a recurring final boss for support)."
I mean he goes head to head with the fighters amped by spirits and his trophy in brawl says: A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination.

"Plus, again, we have no clue if the smashers actually really do any damage or if Galeem and Dharkon are doing all the work. They are specifically on par with each other and are trying to kill each other."

 

[koopa3144]

The Intelligence changes seem to be uncontroversial so I'll add it onto to the profiles soon.

 

[Eficiente]

You can't scale Intelligence from the cast like that because they're not comparable in non-fighting related things. Added to that, I don't agree with Mr. Game & Watch's Intelligence as I find the world where he lives to be silly in a way that he doesn't need to be Gifted in be skilled in all that he does, which we see him do.

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So, following what SamanPatou said, Tabuu should be "[Whatever the cast is], 4-A via Environmental Destruction". Can we start there?

 

[Psychomaster35]

So, following what SamanPatou said, Tabuu should be "[Whatever the cast is], 4-A via Environmental Destruction". Can we start there?

Wouldn't this just be "4-A via death" since his defeat caused Subspace to disappear?

On a further note, I'm fine if the final bosses scale to what the fighters scale to normally just as long as their strongest attacks are listed as a higher tier (Tabuu's death being 4-A and Galeem destroying the Universe being 3-A)

 

[Eficiente]

I was being safe since idk if simply defeating him would cause that or it has to be killing him (I think it's the former?)

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

You can't scale Intelligence from the cast like that because they're not comparable in non-fighting related things. Added to that, I don't agree with Mr. Game & Watch's Intelligence as I find the world where he lives to be silly in a way that he doesn't need to be Gifted in be skilled in all that he does, which we see him do.

The first sentence is correct, but I find the second one incorrect, and I'll explain why.

I'll start with an example. With only one of the many kinds of attacks Mr. Game & Watch can do; during his juggling throws, it's true that him being able to juggle opponents to throw them probably has some silly manipulation of physics to allow it to happen the way it happens always without fail, but it has Mr. Game & Watch become the juggler from Ball who juggles balls, where the challenge of the game is to juggle without making a mistake, and where the player has an incentive to do well as signified by the score counter. Although the juggler's juggling doesn't look realistic, that doesn't change how succeeding at the juggling is supposed to be something skillful even in the Game & Watch setting. It's reasonable to believe that Mr. Game & Watch has that juggler's skill of being able to juggle two balls for an unknown extent of time. The logic of my example should apply to plenty of Mr. Game & Watch's techniques, which probably leads to the conclusion that Mr. Game & Watch has gifted intelligence due to having all those useful skills.

Keep in mind that in the Game & Watch series world, at least in the source material, there is no superstar "Mr. Game & Watch"; he isn't a single person, but instead it's different people doing different actions. Super Smash Bros. represents it that way in Flat Zone, while being adequately faithful to the source material. I think Mr. Game & Watch should be regarded as having gifted intelligence because in Super Smash Bros. he is an amalgamation of the other people from Flat Zone, representing and highlighting the skillful qualities they demonstrated in their games. In relation to Mr. Game & Watch's skills, his superpowers only enhance his aptness so he can use his skills against characters who he would otherwise get outclassed by specifically in terms of fighting skill.

 

[SamanPatou]

Wouldn't this just be "4-A via death" since his defeat caused Subspace to disappear?

On a further note, I'm fine if the final bosses scale to what the fighters scale to normally just as long as their strongest attacks are listed as a higher tier (Tabuu's death being 4-A and Galeem destroying the Universe being 3-A)

I believe 4-A shouldn't even be mentioned at all, Tabuu seems connected to the Subspace through a magical and unclear link, which doesn't seem to scale to anything and the destruction undone is mostly about the areas that have been progressively absorbed into it through subspace bombs.
We don't even know how large is the original subspace, and since it appears and iir is described as a sort of void, it's also possible that those lights in the background aren't actual stars and celestial bodies, rather light effects and other eldritch shenanigans.

Tabuu does get empowered by more "real world" areas he absorbs, but they mostly fuel his wings, as seen at the end.

I believe his death shouldn't have an AP at all, just mention somewhere that his life allows the subspace to exists, but nothing else. Imho, his tier should be "At least Smashers level, higher via Wave Attack" or whatever its name is.

 

[Eficiente]

A note explaining that feat should be made on Tabuu's profile for people to not get the wrong idea then, can you propose one?

Also, back when more interest was given to the verse, the highest feat was Kirby surviving the blast done to the Halberd from Bowser & Ganondorf's cannon, since he was the most exposed. If anyone could calc that it would be great.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

What's the consensus on using Trophies for scaling? The trophy description for the ship says it can "infinity rend space", wouldn't that be 3-A?

 

[Half_Shiny]

agree with the fighters scaling with galeem and tabuu

 

[SamanPatou]

What's the consensus on using Trophies for scaling? The trophy description for the ship says it can "infinity rend space", wouldn't that be 3-A?

That's just space hax and it's extremely vague, most likely a reference to its shots reproducing the same effects of a subspace bomb.

 

[Eficiente]

What's the consensus on using Trophies for scaling?

It's good, but they didn't give anything to use, after evaluation (Iirc the moon destroying the world falling on human-sized characters didn't give that much power).

The trophy description for the ship says it can "infinity rend space", wouldn't that be 3-A?

From this old blog,; "The cannon Bowser & Ganon had was hyperbolically said to be capable of "infinitely rending space", but we saw it shoot once and it rend the area of an island only kilometres in front of it. If they kept firing that cannon anywhere they could aim it they would have only had the area of like 100 islands sent into Subspace and have no more other places where to shoot. Are we assuming that the power settings of the cannon can were in "some kilometres", but if Bowser & Ganon felt like it they could switch it at the "all the infinite space of the whole universe" option? No, "infinitely" was just a hyperbole.

Not to mention how the big spaces sent into Subspace are inside far smaller bubbles, even if if 1 bubble had infinite space in it (it's proven that none does) then the space outside doesn't need to be infinite. This can't possibly prove the size of Subspace.

To give an example, if there were 2 houses and 1 was stealing rooms & parts from the other to have them itself then that doesn't say anything about the size it has always had, it just that it is making itself bigger by stealing."

 

[koopa3144]

It seems most agree with @SamanPatou suggestion of Galeem, Dharkon, and Tabbu tier being changed to match the fighters being up to 3-A/much higher with via special attacks respectively.

 

[koopa3144]

So, can I apply the proposed changes or do I wait a bit longer?

 

[Lou_change]

We need an actual tier for the fighters I think still.

 

[koopa3144]

We need an actual tier for the fighters I think still.

Well I guess we can use fighters taking full-on blasts from Entei, who can cause a volcano to erupt by barking as a placeholder until something gets calculated.

 

[SamanPatou]

That's just earth manip and doesn't related to its own power, besides the fact that triggering a volcanic explosion is currently treated as a High 8-C feat (I should go get the calc).


For now, just give them tier tier the smashers have currently, then they'll be adjusted in due time once new calcs are made.

 

[koopa3144]

I have applied that tier changes to Tabuu, Galeem, and Dharkon.