Legend of Zelda General Discussion Thread

[Hypertornado099]

Yeah, or around there anyway, Onox & BOTW flurry, off the top of my head, there was one or two more but they might be lost.

Can you link the flurry rush MHS calc?

but all the same there's a few MHS/MHS+ feats laying around that could be calced

I want to try calcing them do you have their scans?

 

[Chariot190]

Can you link the flurry rush MHS calc?

It's just the BOTW flurry calc but ya scroll down to the comments in the blog.

The Speed of Flurry Rush

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kinda, as in, definitely, outdated tho

I want to try calcing them do you have their scans?

Not on me atm, but give me till I have time and I'll try making a list of some mid end speed feats that could do with a calc.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Why does it say Current Incarnation in the tabber instead of Tears of the Kingdom?

 

[Chariot190]

Probably because it is the current incarnation, saying that or TOTK, neither are wrong.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Wouldn't listing it as TOTK be better

 

[Nierre]

yeah I don't see why it shouldn't be totk

 

[Chariot190]

Depends, both have equally valid pros and cons.
The way it's listed atm i feel would be more helpful for those who know nothing about Zelda, but TOTK is more consistent with our current naming convention.

Personally idc either way, either work.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah I'm the same boat as chariot, doesn't really matter to me which we use. Do wanna say the reason I originally opted to use Current Incarnation instead of TOTK was because originally the tab for the original Ganondorf was called Canon which doesn't really work with FSA and TOTK Ganon being canon as well, and I just decided to go for Original Incarnation for him and then kinda naturally put Current Incarnation when slotting in TOTK Nando.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Need a quick reminder, what's the consensus on Zelda's scaling in TOTK? Can't recall much for her besides that one interview where they state that when in her Hylian form the secret stone probably makes her a lot stronger than the other Zeldas, and then in Dragon form she empowers the Master Sword but I wasn't sure how much of her power we're scaling from Ganon / the Master Sword?

Like yeah she's the reason it's so strong, but that's also because she was continuously pouring energy into it for thousands of years. I know durability wise Light Dragon scales to 5-A since she can withstand the Demon Dragons gloom attacks (Even programmed to wince in pain when hit by them so not just a funny game mechanic), but not entirely sure what we're doing for her beyond that.

 

[Chariot190]

3-A because she has the Triforce

 

[Dust_Collector]

Urm but the Triforce, and thus Zelda, is tier 0 because it's omnipotent

 

[Chariot190]

In Hylian key, she'd be at least 7-B, likely far higher, given she obliterfucked Calamity Ganon.
Dura would be far, far lower, ****, probably 9-C cap based on what was shown to be potentially lethal.

With the stone she's obviously magnitudes higher, hell you could probably just scale her to 5-C as a baseline given she's inherently way stronger than the other sages, and then that said magic is amped by the same shit that made them 5-C. Might be a statement somewere letting her scale anyway, so 5-C probably.

Light Dragon would be 5-A dura obviously, AP, as said, is tough, it would be way stronger than Zelda with the stone as Ganon did it to get a boost in power, so whatever stone zelda gets, it should upscale.
If we divide Ganon's yield by 10000y for energy a second, that gets 6-B, which tbh is spookily consistent with most other Zelda's magic, but that likely borders on calc stacking so, idk, maybe just 5-C, likely higher.

Going by feats and scaling, human zelda is a glass cannon, light dragon is a stone wall. But I haven't exactly thought much about it.

 

[Chariot190]

how ******* hard is it to just model a ******* tube with a cap

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well if you scale that boulder to the map of Termina it should be big enough to get city level results for bombing it

 

[Emerald]

Well if you scale that boulder to the map of Termina it should be big enough to get city level results for bombing it

Absolute win. Another W against those Final Fantasy-tes

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dust_Collector you’re not thinking outside of the box. Make the boulder 4-B because of this.

 

[Tyloxtus]

And you don't get to decide that? You don't decide what we go with. It's accepted, it is what it is.

As the person making the profile it doesn’t make sense for that to be the case.

You realize the whirlpool he alone makes is 8-A RKE right? He most certainly does have feats.

…No, I didn’t. How would I just know that?

Your profile has none my man

What do you think “was” “gonna” means?

You can test every single one of them, did you forget there's a whole sequence where he, himself (not the avatar) fights alongside you? Not to mention the final fight.

The things I named off, are things I myself have tested, and some are just blatantly obvious.

He literally shows up and fights like 6 Phantom Ganons with the boys, uh huh no shit he has res to the depths and Phantom Ganon hax

Again, didn’t just happen to know that. If that happens at the end of the game, I’ll add it when I do it.

Awful example and a false equivalence. In combat, both you, enemies, even the goddamn horses i accidentally killed a few with ice manip, froze them solid, are affected by things equally, whether it's a wild fox, a moblin, Link, and so on. Sidon and the allies are no different, he is, in fact affected by some stuff too. It's just some shit, he either resists or is immune too. That isn't gameplay mechanics, that is simply just how it works. In some cases it's minor too, like take a flash freeze, being frozen for 5 seconds might seem bad, but when it's so cold it flash freezes lava and instant kills weak animals and wild life, and weak enemies like moblins are frozen for like a minute straight, yeah it do be res.

The avatars can be frozen solid?

And honestly, yeah actually I would say that, he's fell like 20-30m before in scripted cutscenes and didn't even flinch actually how tf did he come fight ganon, that's like a 200m drop, that's within fall damage range. Fall damage is the gameplay mechanic anyway to prevent unrestrained movement in some places, Link himself has fallen to heights in cutscenes that would have killed him in gameplay. But really, it isn't even comparable.

I dunno, how did Sidon get up to the lifted Hyrule Castle either? The writers can’t write.

I mean yeah, because he killed it
This doesn't even make sense, ALL octoroks in BOTW the same size, yet Sidon explicitly fought one so huge it was deemed notably large.

By this logic, Sidon fought a normal octo because we only see octos of the same uniform identical 1m height. You realize how dumb of an argument this is yes?
And you can just scale him off his own feats we actually see? 8-C for BOTW Sidon ain't even wrong, you just arrived at the right conclusion, through the wrong methods, unfortunately, we need to detail said methods so they have to hold up too.

Though that begs the question, why does he need a BOTW key? I mean he can have one, but you're effectively arguing he's a featless wonder, if true, he shouldn't have one.

Damn I can’t believe he killed the only Octorok bigger than Link ever

So let me get this straight, you're scaling him to those, simply because that's what's calced? Then calc some feats, he has them, he has dura feats.

He wouldn't be 9-A, actually put in the work to scale him properly and calc stuff instead of just downplaying the moment what you had is shot down.

I get that it’s not as strong as you were hoping, but BotW just isn’t that strong of a verse.

Because you have him at 8-C which is fodder scaling?

No, 9-A is fodder scaling, 8-C is low tier scaling.

I brought weapons that were littered around the area. And yeah probably, Sidon does amp your attacks.

Exactly. Good, so you DO do more damage than Sidon.

That has absolutely no bearing on what I said, do you not even know where we scale dudes at?

Scaling Mucktorok’s physicals to Colgera’s Weather Manipulation is… actually the funniest wank I’ve heard yet.

So? That isn't how we scale things anyway.

It is if they can damage Link.

He doesn't, he's still above 8-C though. All like likes are, they're like high 8-C at minimum, in durability anyway, AP might be less.

…I was talking about Mucktorok

Ok then why is he only 8-C for scaling to a High 8-C enemy? Why is he not scaling to the shit he fights? Why is he not scaling relative to the rest of the squad? Why is he not scaling to temple bosses? Why is he not scaling to mid bosses who are below temple bosses? etc

Sage Sidon IS High 8-C.

And no they aren't, they literally kill the temple bosses by themselves.

…The Ocarina of Time Sages can kill the temple bosses?

Again, your ignorance is showing mog is a strong word ig, he fights on equal footing tho

Alright, original point ignored.

Yes it does? All Temple Bosses are relative.

1. No they’re not.

2. Even Colgera’s physicals aren’t impressive either, since its ice can be broken by a basic arrow from the worst bow in the game.

From a wacky bow, in a verse, where arrows have nuke lv feats, all while he was demonstrably using wind magic in conjunction with it.
Try again. What sort of argument even is this, that Ganon's huge gloom wave was only 9-C?
The same wave that neg diff smashed a 7-B MS like nothing with enough force the debris launched so hard that he cut himself on the shrapnel?

Revali’s Bow <<<<<<<< Master Sword. It’s actually one of the biggest pieces of evidence of Ganondorf being tired there; Tulin wasn’t drawing any harder on the bow than Revali (and how could he, Tulin wasn’t capable of killing an Aerocuda on his own which almost everything in the verse can oneshot.) Also that was from the bow being fired.

He's about the same? If you run too far he'll dash quickly to catch up. Also his best movement speed feat, is literally identical to Link's. It's the same exact feat.

Actually, you’re right about that; I did forget.

Also no he isn't, your very own justification is "can tag most enemies", enemies that scale to Link, they almost all have combat speed at this level, Link just happens to have speed amps, but said speed amps make him FTL. Sidon don't scale to FTL, but he does scale to the basic rel speed, especially given he can, ya know, fight Phantom Ganon.

He can barely ever tag bosses or minibosses. If you actually watch 1 avatar fight 1 Phantom Ganon, they get their asses kicked.

Then learn.

Gee I should’ve thought of that

I did a rough one to get the approximate, though, let's say I did blog one, why the hell didn't you link or ask for it if you thought it was a thing?
Anyway, why would I? If I make the calc I may as well just make the profile as that's the only real hurdle.

Because I thought you weren’t giving it to me on purpose.

Placeholder animation. Drawing from other NPC's animation set list. Dummy data so the game doesn't crash when it tries to draw a sequence for him being hit so it takes from the basic NPC animation list or he had one made in case it was needed (games do this a lot btw, it's just unused content).

And looking into it, that's LITERALLY what's happening, it's just the game drawing from pre-existing animations, Sidon is checked as a NPC, so it draws the same animation list. The game recognizes that a NPC is near an enemy, and starts pulling.
In fact, it's so goddamn obvious, why do you think he has ZERO audio and SFX for this? Why do you think him cowering, being struck, falling, etc lacks any audio? Why do you think when he falls over he doesn't even have a proper collision (it's because his actual hitbox for being in that position doesn't exist).

Because it isn't meant to happen, not even withstanding the way you get him into that situation is... By running into him over 30,000 times, causing him to recoil slightly, nudging him inch by inch, from town, through a mountain, to an enemy he quite literally isn't meant to interact with.

Honestly, the fact it's been like a year and you still cling to this makes me feel you just shouldn't be allowed to make profiles. Btw it ain't just him, you can do this with any NPC that has collision and isn't grounded. I don't think we're gonna go "hmm yes, if you spend 4 hours nudging Piyah into the Dark Beast Ganon fight, she can play out the animation, she doesnt die though so she must be 7-B".

Instead, how about using stuff for where he's actually meant to go?

Regardless, no, fix that shit immediately.

That STILL means he was meant to be knocked out when he got hit.

He didn’t just nudge Sidon all day(giggity), you can limit where the character can walk. That’s actually far from the easiest way to do it, you can just freeze enemies and bring them to the town.

You can’t do that anyway, they’d despawn after the cutscene.

You, are trying to say Sidon gets one shot by a enemy he's never intended to interact with, by taking what happens in gameplay, yet him surviving enemy attacks and even having dialogue and audio for it in a scripted canon fight he partakes in, is somehow going to far? Lad, he's intended to fight Vah Ruta, he's canonically in that fight, they have ample evidence to suggest he can survive a hit, yet nuh uh because Epona?

What dialogue and audio? “Oh my god, he hit me with his ice!” “Damn I can’t believe he fired his giga laser at my face!”

Hell does he even hit Epona anyway? If so, we'd need to actually think on that. Epona is a legendary steed who is noted to be exceptional, and even has feats of obliterfucking high end enemies like in FSA, tanking bombs (noted to be intentional), and so on. She definitely isn't "just a horse", tbh you being a HW goon I'd assume you know Epona is anything but normal.

That’s because it’s Hyrule Warriors. Hyrule Warriors is full of characters that solo the LoZ multiverse when they’re at max potential. Epona no-selling bombs would mean it’s stronger than the first boss in Twilight Princess.

Bro just use his feats and those he scales to, or above.
And yeah? That would be his best dura feat, why wouldn't you list that?

Honestly when I fought Mucktorok I could barely get that to happen. I think it’s the way I play. I’ll add it anyways.

Because it's wrong?

Why?

Did you really just say you needing to source EFFECTIVELY INFINITE STAMINA is a nitpick? You should source below-average stamina, let alone actual wank.

Game mechanics. Also people IRL can tread water practically indefinitely.

What? Just type it out?

Damn I wish I thought of that

Yeah no shit? I was showing how the 10ft tall fish man whose arms are longer than you are tall, exceeds 0.7m attack range.

Ohhh, ok

But, we see him do it????

He uses Water Manipulation, we don’t see him use the technique Power of Water on himself.

Because it isn't? "yo he's a hero and he's killed demons", tells us actually nothing. Goku is a hero too, and he's bordering on mentally inept. Inversely, Batman has killed demons, and he's a billion times smarter than Sidon.
You did not actually explain WHY that makes him smart, or listed any notable intel feat.

That’s like most LoZ profiles. Nope, he’s Genius.
…Yeah, most profiles don’t.

They were weak to all 3, except Mikau for some reason who ironically has lightning powers.
We're told and explained Zoras are bad with elemental shit, changes in temps, and more, could go into detail, but it basically just boils down to "yo fish sensitive to change".

Electricity is notably bad because water conducts electricity, in which the high water content-always wet zoras, well that's very bad.

Um, no. They don’t. Electricity doesn’t even do any extra damage to the Zora Scale Armor. The only time electricity has been stated or shown to especially affect Zoras is in the BotW canon.

I pray to god you aren't arguing the pathfinder AI is actual evidence.

I dunno, is he slow and bulky?

So? That doesn't mean he can't wear it if given some. And we literally know Zora armor is a thing, it's just relegated to important events like lovers, or the king. They probably just dont wear it because it's cumbersome while swimming, not because they CANT.

Let the nude fish be free, ain't no weakness.

There IS no armor that fits Zoras or much less Sidon. “Zora armor” isn’t armor a Zora wears, it’s armor that Hylians wear to be LIKE Zoras.

Which is something you should be making note of.
and that literally didnt touch upon what i said

Yes it did.

Bruh, they literally explain that was why they weren't ******* with it, if it didn't have shock arrows, they would have sent the knights, they said as much.

Sidon himself didn’t want to mess with it either way.

So? Mipha isn't Sidon.

You’re right, Mipha’s stronger.

Literally every single one. Temple Boss > Gleeoks. And he downscales off Yunobo, same ballpark, just not quite as strong. We know this, because shit that can tank his attacks, in a canon fights, Sidon can also harm in canon fights. Notwithstanding Link fights Yunobo and Yuobo actively uses this attack against Link, Link can tank it, and if Link dodges, Yunobo can tank the recoil and shrug it off in like a second, meaning either way, no matter what, Link or Yunobo's own dura scale to this attack, which ultimately works its way back to Sidon. He isn't 1:1 with it, but that don't mean he aint scaling to a degree.

Yeah, no. They’re not strong as Gleeoks. Especially with the getting stronger for each dead boss thing being game mechanics. Also he downscales from Yubobo’s base physicals, he straight up doesn’t scale from Power of Fire.

It doesn't matter if it's good or bad, it's a notable thing he has, the most notable actually, it's his own biology with numerous traits, quirks, and more that come int play that enable, and disable, various things.

His weapon, is LITERALLY his main method of attack that he always has on him.

And water manip, is his main power capable of a slew of wacky effects.

If you aren't going to do the profile properly, you aren't doing it all.

It does matter if it’s bad, because that means I already have it in the Weaknesses section.

The weapon itself isn’t notable outside of its AP.

It strengthens Link by a little. Other than that, it was only really useful during the time Ganondorf shat in the river.

I’m beginning to think our definitions of “properly” are a bit different.

No, literal references. Like, for example, "<ref name=“TL5”>The JOJOLands Chapter 5</ref>". You need to add references on top of scans.

I’ve seen like, duodecillions of profiles that don’t do this

Neither am I in fact im having trouble with one atm plz snd help
The calcs that need to be done are basic, and given TOTK even has map coordinates, you don't even really need to pixel scale, you can just find the dimensions of stuff via map.

That does help quite a bit, except we don’t know what the map is measured in.

It does, you act like that's a lot, it isn't, adding scans, refs, actually indexing his hax/res/stats without messing it up or getting a bunch of stuff, and actually listing and explaining his shit, is absolutely the baseline.
Gifs, featboxes, etc, THAT's the extra.

I hope you like it better when I actually finish, then. There are a lot of scans I have that aren’t on it yet. Also I’m not ruling out a 5-A rating either, but we’ll see how I judge the end of the game.

 

[Tyloxtus]

3-A because she has the Triforce

Also wtf is this Jiren thing from cause he’s posted it like a bajillion times

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bro how are you still on you're bizarre headcanon of BOTW being it's own verse

 

[Dust_Collector]

Don't have time to read all that but a few things I noticed I want to personally address.

Revali’s Bow <<<<<<<< Master Sword. It’s actually one of the biggest pieces of evidence of Ganondorf being tired there; Tulin wasn’t drawing any harder on the bow than Revali (and how could he, Tulin wasn’t capable of killing an Aerocuda on his own which almost everything in the verse can oneshot.) Also that was from the bow being fired.

Bro this is such an ass argument. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Tulin with the sage amp is actually weaker than Revali. Weapons in the franchise (And most franchises) tend to just get stronger with whoever uses them, good example being the Master Sword in Skyward Sword. It gets it final amp from Zelda yet isn't strong enough to even tickle the Imprisoned, yet when Link gets stronger between his final fight with the Imprisoned and his fight with Demise the sword just kinda grows with him and can suddenly harm Demise (And no this isn't it's energy absorption coming into effect, nothing and nobody starts pouring energy into it nor is it shown obtaining power by itself from Link or the Triforce or whatever).

It's accurate to say Revali's Bow <<<< Master Sword at a base level, but add on sage amps and Tulin actually deflecting a gloom attack from Ganondorf (Still waiting on you to give any sort of proof that he got weakened that doesn't rely on crackpot headcanon or stuff like "Sage Tulin is actually weaker than Revali so that means Ganondorf became tired and his attacks could be repelled!!!!!!"). Ganondorf can pull out phantoms and shoot tons of gloom projectiles in combat without losing strength but uh apparently sitting down and making phantoms at hyrule castle was too much for him?

He can barely ever tag bosses or minibosses. If you actually watch 1 avatar fight 1 Phantom Ganon, they get their asses kicked.

Bit of an exaggeration, the avatars are at a noticable disadvantage but they hold their own well enough that'd they downscale.

That’s like most LoZ profiles. Nope, he’s Genius.
…Yeah, most profiles don’t.

"These profiles are bad and don't put in the effort, so I won't put in the effort either"

Lame ass excuse my man.

I’ve seen like, duodecillions of profiles that don’t do this

That's because most profiles on the wiki are old as shit and not being updated properly, our need for references and scans were pretty lax until like late 2021.

1. No they’re not.

2. Even Colgera’s physicals aren’t impressive either, since its ice can be broken by a basic arrow from the worst bow in the game.

1. Yes they are, if they weren't then they'd guide you on the best order to fight them in as to avoid having to go against the strongest first (Hell given that they do try send you to Colgera first seems to imply he's explictly not out of the other bosses leagues)

2. Like I mentioned above, weapons tend to just inexplictly scale to their user, hell using another bow as an example, Link gets the Fairy Bow in the forest temple in OOT, gets 3 master sword level (At least) amps afterwards as well as increased life-force from heart containers and it along with basic arrows is still able to do noticable damage to Bongo Bongo when logically it should be no stronger than when Phantom Ganon ate several arrows from it. Hell the fact the arrows could harm Phantom Ganon at all proves it got stronger once Link grabbed it unless you wanna argue the Fairy Bow + Normal arrows is natually superior to the Master Swords base power level.

Scaling Mucktorok’s physicals to Colgera’s Weather Manipulation is… actually the funniest wank I’ve heard yet.

Please explain why it's wank? Colgera uses it innate magical energies to make the blizzard, it uses that same energy for it's magical ice spikes, Link's durable enough to handle those spikes and Mucktorok can harm Link.

Also given your obsession with wanting to purposely wank the verse I'm surprised you're complaining about this?

 

[Chariot190]

As the person making the profile it doesn’t make sense for that to be the case.

And now you aren't. Not even responding to the rest of your shit, you don't wanna follow the rules. You don't get to now, end of.

 

[Chariot190]

If Gloom is Ganon's blood, shouldn't lil bro have low regen or something because like, idk man, that's a LOT of blood.

 

[Hypertornado099]

If Gloom is Ganon's blood, shouldn't lil bro have low regen or something because like, idk man, that's a LOT of blood.

How does having a lot of blood grant regen?

 

[Hypertornado099]

I think I can guess why

 

[Chariot190]

How does having a lot of blood grant regen?

The blood has to come from somewhere, and when bro's been bleeding out for millennia to the point he can make a castle and paint the country in his own blood, idk I feel like he makes back the unrealistically excessive amount of blood he's bleeding every action he takes, quicker than he uses it up.

Like if bro wasn't "regening" the blood back, he'd just kinda run out after one gloom attack, and then die.
Idk if you'd call it "regen", but he def makes up the bloodloss somehow actually thinking on it, he returned back to full Gerudo Chad from a crusty skeleton and healed the gouge marks Rauru made when sealing him so idk maybe he does have inhuman healing, not exactly combat applicable in this case but it's something

 

[Tyloxtus]

Pretty sure going from looking mummified to muscular and healthy again means regen, yeah. Unless Ganon “healed” by eating the biggest feasts known to man and exercising

 

[Tyloxtus]

Also we finally have 8-B CoH Link

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah with much gloom / blood he pumps out with no negative consequences he's gotta have regen to some degree for that

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also we finally have 8-B CoH Link

Cool (Pun not intended), some pretty nice matches to have in that tier

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also quickly whipped up a CRT regarding Crenando and his endless supply of blood

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Why doesn’t Magda have her own page?

 

[Dust_Collector]

She's too strong we don't have a high enough tier on the wiki to use for her

 

[Tyloxtus]

Why doesn’t Magda have her own page?

Lack of feats sadly. I thought the Upheaval would make her go Worldbreaker Hulk, but other than that her only feat is hurting BotW Link.

 

[Nierre]

Flower Blight Ganon > Tiering System

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Lack of feats sadly. I thought the Upheaval would make her go Worldbreaker Hulk, but other than that her only feat is hurting BotW Link.

Hurting BotW Link and even taking 3 of his hearts is still an impressive feat

 

[Dust_Collector]

Jokes aside I think her hurting Link is just a gag, like her whole thing is played entirely for laughs and should be taken about as seriously Link being unable to defend himself against angry cuccos

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Jokes aside I think her hurting Link is just a gag, like her whole thing is played entirely for laughs and should be taken about as seriously Link being unable to defend himself against angry cuccos

Or the angry shopkeeper you stole from

 

[SilentLyfe]

Or the angry shopkeeper you stole from

Wait. Are you saying that he doesn’t have Conceptual Manipulation for changing Link’s name to THEIF?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Changing a person's name across reality is concept manip, right?

 

[Tyloxtus]

Hurting BotW Link and even taking 3 of his hearts is still an impressive feat

It is, but the only other physical feat, or feat period, she has is the fact she can use gardening tools.