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League of Legends Speed Scaling Problem 3

So your first day back from being banned ant the first thing you decide to do is ignore how powerscaling works and flat out ignore feats and accuse us of making up scaling just because you dont like them
 
Characters do not need speed feats of their own to be able to scale to other characters, the fact that they can fight and hit those characters in combat in and of itself is a speed feat
 
WeeklyBattles said:
So your first day back from being banned ant the first thing you decide to do is ignore how powerscaling works and flat out ignore feats and accuse us of making up scaling just because you dont like them
Click to expand...
When the profiles shown don't provide the sufficient evidence or logical scaling, you do need to ask what people were thinking in changing profiles without any checking.

As to the second post, when the characters listed have zero speed feats that point is meaningless. What's the point of giving Subsonic when you can't even prove that both the ghouls or the characters are Subsonic without circular scaling.
 
Except they do have sufficient evidence and logical scaling, as evidenced by the threads that hashed out said evidence and scaling and the people who have agreed that said evidence and scaling is sufficient

You ignoring the numerous feats the characters have =/= they have no feats.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Except they do have sufficient evidence and logical scaling, as evidenced by the threads that hashed out said evidence and scaling and the people who have agreed that said evidence and scaling is sufficient

You ignoring the numerous feats the characters have =/= they have no feats.
Click to expand...
They don't have sufficient evidence or scaling given that you have provided zero evidence for it and completely skipped the topic before making the changes.

You not providing anything =/= they have any feats or scaling.
 
Rocker1189 said:
Man, doing this over 2 discussion pages was such fun, lets do it again!
Click to expand...
I'd love to since the scaling and lack of evidence suggests that most people didn't actually read through and double check anything Weekly posted and so allowed him to make give unsupported ratings and bad scaling.
 
That's awfully presumptuous of you to say Regis

Frankly pretty unsubstantiated as well given the extensive conversations and debates that were had between everyone who worked on setting the scaling straight

Though i guess its to be expected of you to simply handwave and ignore the opinions of everyone who agrees with something you choose to not agree with
 
WeeklyBattles said:
That's awfully presumptuous of you to say Regis

Frankly pretty unsubstantiated as well given the extensive conversations and debates that were had between everyone who worked on setting the scaling straight

Though i guess its to be expected of you to simply handwave the opinions of everyone who agrees with something you choose to not agree with
Click to expand...
That's a lot of things you're saying up above, but it isn't evidence for any of the champions I've mentioned above. I've asked for it twice now, not sure why you're so keen on ignoring it.

It's also amusing that you seem to think a bunch of circular scaling is reasonable when what was being removed also had a bunch of circular scaling. Always nice to see staff handwave off petty things like evidence and logic for personal preferences. Really shows off the objective standards applied to the verse.
 
If you had actually posted any evidence or used any semblance of logic beyond 'I dont like this therefore its wrong and everyone who agrees with it is wrong' then you might have an argument, but as of yet all you've done is just come out the gate saying 'no' just for the sake of saying 'no' and accusing every single person in this thread of ignoring evidence and using bad scaling just because you personally do not like that the characters are rated the way they are.
 
Once again, no evidence or logic explaining why Olaf, Lucian or Miss Fortune should all scale to each other. You need more then "Yes, they scale because I said so" for actual reasoning and scaling.

Doesn't seem like you can make one either since you're attacking me for pointing out your mistakes and ignoring said mistakes. This isn't even that old given others have called you on it and also asked why you made some changes without any verification.
 
The story Shadow and Fortune, where theyre all blatantly shown to fight at comparable speeds to each other, something which i have previously stated which you conveniently ignored.

Seeing as you have yet to point out any actual mistakes and are rather just choosing to throw a blanket disagreement over the entire revision for no legitimate reason i have every right to call you out on it.
 
Shadow and Fortune shows no such thing, especially given Olaf is mostly separate from them both and Lucian and MF have different feats. Again, show the actual evidence instead of just saying stuff.

I'm not sure how circular scaling, lack of evidence and explanations in a lot of the changes, especially regarding champions no one discussed in the threads is something to be proud of, unless you like to be a terrible editor of this wiki.
 
I mean I was fine lumping everyone who didn't have better feats down to subsonic to avoid further debate but admittedly after reading Shadow and Fortune, Regis has a point, there's no real scaling there. For the most part everyone is using guns to attack and guns don't have reaction times and nobody and nothing is reacting to gunfire.

Olaf joins up with the group briefly and then leaves without ever doing any sort of scaling to anyone.

Lucian lands multiple shots on Thresh- it just doesn't work on him because Thresh is immune to Lucian's guns. Later Lucian manages to get Thresh's souls to turn on him and Thresh loses his shield- allowing Lucian to blast him repeatedly and he does so.

Given that Mordekaiser's next on the update list- the Shadow Isles are likely to get new lore soon anyways.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
What happened to the nigh-universal subsonic scaling?

How did this restart??
Click to expand...
When there are a lot of problems with the scaling and little evidence to support that scaling, did you or anyone else really think that there wouldn't be problems, especially after how the edits were done? Especially given the changes to characters with zero scaling?
 
"Everyone who is an anyone in League's lore should be subsonic since relatively weak no-names can be comparable to champions in speed". What changed about this specifically, is what I am asking.

Also you have been back a single day and are already slinging out insults and condescension.

>unless you like to be a terrible editor of this wiki.

>did you or anyone else really think that there wouldn't be problems

>Always nice to see staff handwave off petty things like evidence and logic for personal preferences

You didn't change your tone whatsoever since your ban.
 
The fact that nothing supports all fodder being subsonic, rendering your theory invalid? You do need to prove these things, not just hope that they get accepted because of your say so. Add on the facts that stuff like the above 3 champions not actually doing anything that warrants scaling between them and it's a fine mess.

So staff members are fine when they act like that? Good to know.
 
Not all, but some.

>So staff members are fine when they act like that?

Pushing it with this. I'm tired of dealing with this garbage attitude and the only reason the ban wasn't permanent was to give you a chance to reform your actions. If you have no intention of changing let's go ahead and skip straight to the point and reinstate that ban.
 
@Regis

Regardless of how right or wrong you think yourself or others are- throwing shade everywhere is just going to get you banned again. And then you're not going to be participating in these discussions on-site, again.

It's not difficult- all you have to do is not insult everyone. The odd jab now and then I assume is expected- debates will cause that no matter how hard you try not to- but almost every comment I've just seen is hostile.

Deep breaths. Read what you type before posting.
 
You don't get to say some and then assume by some it applies to almost everyone, going by Weekly's edits of the undecided profiles. Not when the fodder vary and have different showings. Again, you do need to show that you have a point rather than hope people just accept you because of ___.

When I'm being attacked for pointing out the clear flaws in the scaling and the distinct lack of evidence for it, it's now acceptable for people to just ignore me or jump on me?
 
We won't ignore it, but don't play the victim here.

We have had long discussion with Friendly and Agnaa, both of who had many disagreements. Never did we have to grind to a halt because of the toxicity of a user. You can disagree and debate without making progress impossible because of the never ending insults, condescension, and irrelevant fallacies.

This is a YOU problem, and you needed to work on it before coming back. If you aren't willing to respond calmly like a level-headed adult without throwing around bravado and needlessly aggressive remarks, you don't have a place here. So, I tell you once more: drop that ridiculous attitude and be like everyone else here in regards to respect or you're out. I've borderline begged you to stop being toxic before and even after a ban you still haven't let up. So this is the last straw. The camel's back is about to be broken at this point.
 
So is there a response to the various points I've raised earlier, from Lissandra not scaling to Quinn to the lack of fodder feats and showings that support nigh universal scaling?
 
Assaltwaffle said:
>So staff members are fine when they act like that?

Pushing it with this. I'm tired of dealing with this garbage attitude and the only reason the ban wasn't permanent was to give you a chance to reform your actions. If you have no intention of changing let's go ahead and skip straight to the point and reinstate that ban.
Click to expand...
Having gone through all the posts, they both fanned the flames a lot. I think it's pretty unfair for you and Matt to ignore Weekly's part in it.

BIG TEXT SAYING THAT I DO NOT THINK THAT WEEKLY SHOULD BE PUNISHED IN ANY WAY FOR THIS OR THAT WEEKLY'S ACTIONS AND REGIS' ACTIONS ARE EQUAL

But it should be noted down in case Weekly repeats this behaviour in the future. The same thing you guys did for Regis' similar minor infractions leading up to his ban.

Below I've written up a summary of (what I believe) to be the worst parts of each of the posts in the thread after Regis got unbanned, up to Assalt drawing attention to the toxic messages sent.

Post Summary​
Regis: This makes little sense.
Weekly: That is how scaling works.

Regis: Apparently this WoG statement is something to ignore.

Weekly: Your first day back you ignore how power scaling works and accuse us of making up scaling just because you don't like them.

Regis: You need to ask what people were thinking in changing profiles without any checking.

Weekly: Except they do have evidence, you're ignoring feats.

Regis: You have provided zero evidence.

Rocker: Sarcastic comment.

Regis: Most people didn't double check anything, Weekly have unsupported ratings and bad scaling.

Rocker: Sarcasm and "you won't be satisfied".

Weekly: That's presumptuous and handwaving, you're just choosing not to agree with it.

Regis: You're saying a lot but not giving evidence, really shows off the objective standards applied to the verse.

Weekly: You haven't posted evidence, you just don't like the ratings.

Regis: You haven't posted evidence, you're attacking me for pointing out mistakes.

Weekly: You haven't pointed out any mistakes.

Regis: Why do you like being a terrible editor of this wiki.

Assalt: How did this restart?

Friendly: Regis has a point, these few characters shouldn't scale.

Regis: Did you or anyone else really think that there wouldn't be problems?
EDIT:

Assaltwaffle said:
We have had long discussion with Friendly and Agnaa, both of who had many disagreements. Never did we have to grind to a halt because of the toxicity of a user. You can disagree and debate without making progress impossible because of the never ending insults, condescension, and irrelevant fallacies.
Click to expand...
It was really stressful to go through these discussions with Weekly, but I think his toxicity in DMs was also driven by his stress over these revisions in general, and was nonexistent in our discussions about other verses.
 
Lissandra outpaced quinn, yes she scales

Fodder from nearly every faction have reacted to champs with subsonicfeats yes they scale
 
I have no opinion on this thread, but Regis, you do need to chill out. Don't use a condescending attitude and insult people, not only can you can blocked for it but that doesn't help in convincing people to actually listen to you.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Lissandra outpaced quinn, yes she scales

Fodder from nearly every faction have reacted to champs with subsonicfeats yes they scale
Click to expand...
Non-canon material means that she doesn't scale.

This isn't evidence. This is you repeating a statement over and over without showing how all fodder are subsonic.
 
@Agnaa

Fanning the flames is different than starting and propagating the fire.

Also, I definitely don't think Weekly's remarks are equal. At all.
 
Fanning the flames is different than starting and propagating the fire.

Yes, they are different. I was initially going to say that Weekly instigated it with his comment of "Your first day back you ignore how power scaling works and accuse us of making up scaling just because you don't like them." But I changed it since I guess you could consider Regis saying "Apparently this WoG statement is something to ignore" as starting it. It's a tough call over that, imo, but I think Weekly's comment was definitely a huge escalation there.

Also, I definitely don't think Weekly's remarks are equal. At all.

I had all-caps, italicized, and bolded text of me saying that Weekly's remarks aren't equal. I don't appreciate you making this comment in light of that.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
So is there a response to the various points I've raised earlier, from Lissandra not scaling to Quinn to the lack of fodder feats and showings that support nigh universal scaling?
Click to expand...
So is there a response?
 
I already answered this

There is no non-canon material being used here, lissandra canonically outpaced quinn so yes, she scales

Fodder from nearly every faction has subsonic feats. Fodder Demacian soldiers have subsonic scaling and feats, fodder Noxian soldiers have subsonic feats and scaling, fodder Voidborn have subsonic feats and scaling, fodder Shadow Isles ghouls have subsonic feats and scaling, fodder Iceborn have subsonic feats. There is no reason to assume they dont scale.
 
Lissandra has not faced Quinn in any canon material, so no, she doesn't scale. Journey into the Freljord is a non-canon work after Riot stated in a link above that stuff pre 2017 isn't canon if it's not on Universe and isn't guaranteed to become canon in the future.

You have not shown evidence yet again. You have kept repeating your own statments, but that does not make it evidence in any way.
 
Journey into the freljord is 100% canon, nothing whatsoever is contradictory about it, it being old does not make it non-canon

Ive already shown the feats numerous times in the past two threads
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Journey into the freljord is 100% canon, nothing whatsoever is contradictory about it, it being old does not make it non-canon

Ive already shown the feats numerous times in the past two threads
Click to expand...
Being pre 2017 and not added on Universe makes it non-canon as per Riot. Unlike people here or on LoL Wiki, they have the final say in deciding what is canon, and Journey into the Freljord does not meet their criteria given out in the link above. What you are suggesting is that we ignore Riot just for this case, despite using Riot WoG in several profiles.

You have not shown Ghouls/fodder Noxians/Iceborn/Chem-Barons and such having Subsonic feats. You have simply repeated that they have feats, without providing anything.
 
Agnaa said:
I had all-caps, italicized, and bolded text of me saying that Weekly's remarks aren't equal. I don't appreciate you making this comment in light of that.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I was heading out and read this pretty fast. You have my full apology for improperly representing you.
 
Ahri - Subsonic reactions and combat speed (Able to speedblitz Noxian soldiers and Order of Shadow Acolytes. Should be comparable to Xayah and Rakan and superior to Alistar.)

Where does she fight Noxians or Ninjas? Why is she being compared to Vastaya she's never met, especially after this type of scaling was debunked in previous threads?

Alistar - Subsonic reactions and combat speed (Fought against and thus should be comparable to Xin Zhao, Should be comparable to Xayah and Rakan)

Let's see, a fight with little details in an arena designed to entertain, plus more race based scaling that makes little sense. You could at least add a bit more to it while removing comparisons to Xayah and Rakan.

Amumu - Subsonic reactions and combat speed (All Yordles are stated to be much faster than normal humans, Should be comparable to other Yordle mages like Lulu And Veigar)

Race based scaling once again. Why was this accepted?

Ashe - Subsonic reactions and combat speed (Kept up with Sejuani in combat)

A good example of scaling chains that don't make sense past a certain point. Ashe scales to Sejuani who scales to Olaf and Udyr, who scale to Lucian and MF and Lee Sin, of whom only Lee Sin has a speed feat which was said to be between Superhuman and Subsonic. Add on the fact that Ashe fought Sejuani before Sejuani fought Olaf as well Sejuani not being shown to fight alongside Udyr and you essentially have nothing.

This is where feats depicted in the Ashe: Warmother comics were somehow reduced to nothing save a line about fighting Sejuani who has strange scaling without any feats being evaluated, instead favoring scaling that does not show how fast Ashe actually is since all the characters linked have scaling to other characters until it ends in vague lines about fodder being Subsonic without showing the fodder's Subsonic feats.
 
Ahri fought Noxians in two different short stories as well as her lore, and was stated to have fought members of the Order of Shadow in her lore.

Amumu and Alistar get it via universal scaling.

Ashe and Sejuani fought, therefore they scale to each other.
 
2 short stories and a bio which conveniently fail to mention Noxians and the Order of Shadows, save for glimpses of them either through spying on Noxian hunters or through memories of others. This is not evidence, it is making up fanfiction to justify ratings.

Universal scaling which makes no sense and wasn't to be used. You still haven't justified it over 3 threads.

So you just skip over 2 paragraphs and post a line I already agree with? Please reread and reply, thank you very much.
 
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