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"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!

Yeah, the Empathic Manipulation not working on Frisk and Flowey, the latter of whom is literally unable to feel love, doesn't mean it's useless tbh
Also Time Stop should definitely remain a "Likely" btw
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Yeah, the Empathic Manipulation not working on Frisk and Flowey, the latter of whom is literally unable to feel love, doesn't mean it's useless tbh
Click to expand...
I mean... how exactly is this impacting matches? Did it stop either Frisk or Flowey at doing anything? Nah. Putting it for accuracy is a thing, but it being a game changer in vs threads is a no.
 
Wtf why is this continuing, didnt we agree to make a new thread where I make it more organised and answer the arguments

Anyways, Stryms arguments are still very much shit asf and very obviously spite driven. I mean that Fear argument is genuinly mental damn, this will be easier than I thought
 
StrymULTRA said:
I talked with @Maverick_Zero_X and she expressed interest in commenting here and reading my concerns. I did think about it and it's pretty foolish to let a CRT pass if I can just stop in its tracks, right?

Anyway, let's go!

Social Influencing (Part 1)

Part 1

Argument: Sans was able to trick and make Frisk spare him with just his words in the Genocide Route even when Frisk is a coldblooded murderer[1]

Debunk: Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him), and nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu. They may have simply decided to play along to see how it plays out. The same thing was done by Flowey after all, as he does mention that he purposely lost every game and did everything that was possible to do in the Underground just to see what happens. I'd also remind y'all that Flowey is also supposed to be a reflection of the Player, as he does give you a tutorial, gives hints for how to complete the Pacifist Route (and gets mad if you don't do everything exactly how he says) and claims multiple times that Chara is the only one who understands him as they're not predictable like the other characters, who are just NPCs for him. I'd remind you all that Chara is written to be also a reflection of us, due to them being our desire to grind stats (yet not being actually us at the same time) and their name is chosen by us.

I'd remind you that the main point of Undertale and why that game is so popular is due to it having nigh-infinite outcomes and alternate dialogues depending on what we do in the story, something that Flowey himself also says very explicitly when we constantly go to check him at the end of Neutral.

Part 2

Argument: Drives Papyrus' crazy with his puns, is loved by almost everyone in Snowdin[3], is able to keep his job even though he sleeps all the time[4] and drives Undyne mad.

Debunk: None of this is SI. Let's check the things one by one:
  • Papyrus hating Sans' puns is completely fanon. This blog lists a great deal of evidence on why Papyrus isn't exactly mad at them, but secretely enjoys them by his own admission and him also doing that.
  • The "loved by everyone in Showdin" clip doesn't say anything on it.
  • Undyne was never mad at Sans if I recall correctly, though a clip showing it would help for context. Not that Undyne is exactly very competent at hiring people, as we all know that she keeps Papyrus around for pure pity despite her thinking that he's not qualified, or the Royal Guard Dogs being in that position despite them being spareable from literally just petting them few times.
Part 3

Argument: Was capable of traumatizing Flowey to the point where even the mention of anything linked to Sans leaves him angry and nervous[5]

Debunk: Every hard boss fight should have SI due to it leaving people pissed at it because of how hard it is according to this logic. No. Sans has never passively instigated fear to anyone, he's mostly seen as a lazy bum ass, only people who fight him get to know this side of him, but normally? Nah. Frisk not being scared from Sans even proves my point more.

Res. to Fear Manipulation

Argument: Seemingly unaffected by Chara's presence and merely makes jokes about it,[1] which has been shown to make victim's unnaturally scared. A good example of this being Doggo who couldn't even see them or know if there was even someone there, Frisk also did the same to Flowey even though Flowey considers himself emotionless[5]

Debunk: Ok so... why is this assumed to be a resistance?. On the page in itself we have this: "Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage". We have multiple examples of people not being truly affected from Chara's aura:
While we don't know what's going on for the other monsters, we have showings that with bravery/rage/confidence alone, you can overcome their fear aura. Sans isn't any different from this.

Invulnerability Negation

Argument: It ignores Frisk's INV frame, which makes them immune to other attacks after being hit for a short amount of time.

Debunk: Not only it's not entirely true, as there are items that increase the INV Frames, aka the Torn Notebook (+6 INV) and the Cloudy Glasses (+9 INV). In fact, as displayed in this Reddit post, getting fully hit while having both of these equipped significantly reduces the damage from KR compared to when you lack these.

Plus, checking the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through." The reason is simple, because Invulnerability isn't immunity to hax, is immunity to physical damage, there's no reason for it to shield from stuff such as Existence Erasure, Spatial Cutting, Mind Hax, etc., coz these all bypass the physical defense. I do agree that Sans has still Durability Negation due to KR killing with the same timeframe regardless of the DEF that Frisk has, but... yeah, Inv Negation seems to be added just for the sake of bloating Sans' profile and make him appear more impressive than he is.

Empathic Manipulation

Argument: When against Sans, the opponents passively feel guilt and regret as if their sins were literally crawling[1] and weighing on their backs[1]

Debunk: Being aware of your wrongs =/= feeling guilty for those. Not to mention this didn't stop Frisk from always fighting against Sans (and even reset the fight for the sake of killing him again twice). This also happened with Flowey, yet... he literally said that he doesn't learn anything from his defeats. While it's indeed true that the line of text still appears regardless if you killed Sans before, it definitely shouldn't be assumed that's guilt.

The hax should remain, but it's kinda irrelevant in a fight regardless, as it never made anyone felt guilty in-canon.

Teleportation

Argument: Capable of teleporting himself, others[3] and his attacks[1]

Debunk: While the rest is fine... where is the evidence of attacks being teleported? I don't exactly remember here.

4th Wall Breaking

Argument: Can change the battle boxes size, scretching it out[1]

Debunk: Huh, hm, ah. Nah, a lot of characters can manipulate the battle box without necessairly breaking the 4th wall (outside Flowey).

MUs that would need to be restored/removed

Now that this super wanked SI is out of the way, let's see what MUs were removed under this premise:

Victories:

Losses:

The fight with The Long Quiet should also be removed for this reason.
Click to expand...
I agree with Strym's points here for the most part (the Social Influencing stuff seems particularly egregious).

Neutral on the Fear Manipulation Resistance though for now. I'll agree or disagree later depending on upcoming arguments.
 
I mean, best case scenario we get Maverick to Ig half agree with the thread, but that's about it really? Making a new thread would definitely get more staff traction.
 
I don't necessarely agree with resistence to fear inducement being removed

Flowey being a souless being with no emotions felt fear because of Frisk (Chara possessed?)

Fear via SI is by natural means, Souless beings don't feel fear by natural means, So it's actually a superpower
 
StrymULTRA said:
I did not have better YT clips lmao.
Click to expand...
Use wiki fr
StrymULTRA said:
Ok but Monster Kid? Plus, again, confidence is something that can overcome fear, something Sans definitely has here.
Click to expand...
He became brave overtime. Sans, on the other hand, gives no shit at all throughout the entire game.
StrymULTRA said:
He teleports, sure. But his bones do not.
Click to expand...
His attacks switch in-between TPs.
StrymULTRA said:
Did I say it should be removed? I only want to remove that bit.
Click to expand...
Ok
StrymULTRA said:
This happens also in Neutral.
Click to expand...
  • If the protagonist's LV is 1, the response becomes "(You tap the dummy with your fist.) (You feel bad.)"
  • If the protagonist's LV is between 2 and 4, the response becomes "(You hit the dummy lightly.) (You don't feel like you learned anything.)"
  • If the protagonist's LV is between 5 and 7, the response becomes "(You sock the dummy.) (Who cares?)"
  • If the protagonist's LV is 8 or higher, the response becomes "(You punch the dummy at full force.) (Feels good.)"
Click to expand...
It feels good only on Genocide LV. Also, MTT point? And point on ":)" instead of "!"?

I don't see what's the point of this. I am only removing the part of Frisk feeling guilty as that's nowhere said in-verse. You can perfectly be aware that what you're doing is ****** up yet you enjoy doing that anyway, Flowey is literally that, and we become like him in Genocides, because the reason why we do that is literally why he also did it, for curiosity.
Click to expand...
"Feeling sins crawling on your back" means you feel guilt poetically. Person who does not care or even enjoys doing this would not care at all, hence he would not feel sins even if they are there.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
He became brave overtime. Sans, on the other hand, gives no shit at all throughout the entire game.
Click to expand...
Undyne also does.
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
His attacks switch in-between TPs.
Click to expand...
This does not mean they teleport.
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
It feels good only on Genocide LV.
Click to expand...
You're a liar. And I hate liars.

TheOrangeGuy09 said:
And point on ":)" instead of "!"?
Click to expand...
They're irrelevant as they do not address my main point of them not feeling guilty from the KR.
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
"Feeling sins crawling on your back" means you feel guilt poetically. Person who does not care or even enjoys doing this would not care at all, hence he would not feel sins even if they are there.
Click to expand...
This still didn't slow down Frisk a single bit. Strange, isn't it?
 
StrymULTRA said:
I miss the part where Undyne, Mettaton or Muffet were scared. Mind linking these plz?
Click to expand...
If it is Chara's presence that induces fear rather than Frisk's, maybe Chara just didn't use it on them. Though, that'd also mean that there's no evidence that Chara would have used it on Sans, so Sans might lose that resistance regardless...
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
The narration sure does suggest that it’s affecting Frisk, but Frisk is sorta controlled by a literal player, and that's probably why it feels like it's doing nothing.
Click to expand...
Tbh Frisk's feelings are kinda influenced from the Player's actions, they do reflect us in some way. Nothing says that they'd be slowed down without us, as nothing says that Flowey (someone without a puppetter) did either.

Shion is just throwing assumptions over assumptions to wank Sans as much as possible.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Undyne also does.
Click to expand...
She’s portrayed as hero. She also has Determination so great they become UTU.
And, I’m fine with giving them Resistance as well if necessary.
StrymULTRA said:
This does not mean they teleport.
Click to expand...
If only he teleported, it would make them remain in the place they were before teleportation
StrymULTRA said:
Click to expand...

Cool, so they feel good even on routes close to Genocide but not actual Genocide despite not being pure evil. Thanks for supporting my point.
StrymULTRA said:
They're irrelevant as they do not address my main point of them not feeling guilty from the KR.
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
This still didn't slow down Frisk a single bit. Strange, isn't it?
Click to expand...
I already addressed that. Frisk/Player does this not because they want to be good or bad, but because they can. It does not stop Frisk from being naturally evil on Genocide though.
 
LightSoul8 said:
If it is Chara's presence that induces fear rather than Frisk's, maybe Chara just didn't use it on them. Though, that'd also mean that there's no evidence that Chara would have used it on Sans, so Sans might lose that resistance regardless...
Click to expand...
Actually, Flowey only becoming afraid right as he mentions that Chara could kill him and right before he sees Frisk make a creepy face kind of implies that Chara taking over Frisk is what scared Flowey here, so this actually checks out.


Also, Shion, would you mind updating the agree and disagree tallies on the main post?
 
LightSoul8 said:
Actually, Flowey only becoming afraid right as he mentions that Chara could kill him and right before he sees Frisk make a creepy face kind of implies that Chara taking over Frisk is what scared Flowey here, so this actually checks out.
Click to expand...
Doggo is still scared despite being ******* blind
Papyrus is scared as well wayyy before Chara taking over more over Frisk’s body
 
StrymULTRA said:
Tbh Frisk's feelings are kinda influenced from the Player's actions, they do reflect us in some way. Nothing says that they'd be slowed down without us, as nothing says that Flowey (someone without a puppetter) did either.
Click to expand...
Frisk does get scared from the Amalgamate in the bathtub, the Player not so much, so ehhh.
As for Flowey, we again have no idea how that fight went, and he again literally can't feel compassion, it's sorta a big part of guilt?
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Doggo is still scared despite being ******* blind
Papyrus is scared as well wayyy before Chara taking over more over Frisk’s body
Click to expand...
I never argued against Doggo and Papyrus being scared. Chara's presence appears when they want it to (Doggo) and/or when they take over Frisk's body (Flowey). The two aren't mutually exclusive

Edit: Actually, Asgore isn't scared in the genocide route, so it's probably just something Chara does consciously when they want to
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
She’s portrayed as hero. She also has Determination so great they become UTU.
And, I’m fine with giving them Resistance as well if necessary.
Click to expand...
I mean you'd have to give that to basically anyone who faces you in Genocide by their own will, like Monster Kid, Undyne, Muffet, MTT... And that's a tad bit of a stretch.

Regardless the fairest option is to remove the resistance from Sans and then make a thread for all of them, as this is strictly Sans-based.
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
If only he teleported, it would make them remain in the place they were before teleportation
Click to expand...
Tbh that's playing on a lot of assumptions. He could have just changed the attacks in unknown ways in that timeskip, like when a turn ends and the attacks all disappear at the end of everyone's turn.
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
I already addressed that. Frisk/Player does this not because they want to be good or bad, but because they can. It does not stop Frisk from being naturally evil on Genocide though.
Click to expand...
Ok so...? I did not ******* say to remove it, I just said to remove the "guilty" stuff as nothing says it in-verse. We can interpret it as anything, really.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I mean you'd have to give that to basically anyone who faces you in Genocide by their own will, like Monster Kid, Undyne, Muffet, MTT... And that's a tad bit of a stretch.
Click to expand...
Not really. Doggo is afraid of us but can still fight us. We also don’t have visuals of him being scared, presumably due to graphics or smth like that.
StrymULTRA said:
Regardless the fairest option is to remove the resistance from Sans and then make a thread for all of them, as this is strictly Sans-based.
Click to expand...
Why remove something that is right just because it is not applied to others?
StrymULTRA said:
Tbh that's playing on a lot of assumptions. He could have just changed the attacks in unknown ways in that timeskip, like when a turn ends and the attacks all disappear at the end of everyone's turn.
Click to expand...
This works in time stop, does not work in teleportation. If he himself teleports, how can he change attacks while he’s doing this?
StrymULTRA said:
Ok so...? I did not ******* say to remove it, I just said to remove the "guilty" stuff as nothing says it in-verse. We can interpret it as anything, really.
Click to expand...
Evil people do not feel sins crawling on their back. The very phrase implies the feeling of guilt.
 
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