"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!

[Eden_Warlock99]

I do agree that we should probably remove the fear resistance tho
Frisk's fear aura honestly isn't that potent and even those affected by it (Papyrus) can hide that fear pretty well.
We don't give everyone who fought Sukuna/Dio fear resistance lol

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I do agree that we should probably remove the fear resistance tho
Frisk's fear aura honestly isn't that potent and even those affected by it (Papyrus) can hide that fear pretty well.

Fair enough

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not really. Doggo is afraid of us but can still fight us. We also don’t have visuals of him being scared, presumably due to graphics or smth like that.

You just shot yourself in the foot there... Sans also can, everyone in Genocide can (outside Papyrus), but none visually show it.

Why remove something that is right just because it is not applied to others?

Double standards.

This works in time stop, does not work in teleportation. If he himself teleports, how can he change attacks while he’s doing this?

I mean the fact that he never makes bones spawn outta nowhere mid-attack, the phrasing makes it seem that way.

Evil people do not feel sins crawling on their back. The very phrase implies the feeling of guilt.

Mind linking a source for that. I only can find UT-related things when searching it.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

The ONLY staff that came here is Abandon, and they didn't reply to despite being online a lot of times after. They'd have replied to me if they bothered to.

Been mostly dealing with school and other stuff (midterms happening right now) so I’ve kinda just been popping into the forum for like a minute or two and then dipping most of the time.

I talked with @Maverick_Zero_X and she expressed interest in commenting here and reading my concerns. I did think about it and it's pretty foolish to let a CRT pass if I can just stop in its tracks, right?

Anyway, let's go!

Social Influencing (Part 1)

Part 1

Argument: Sans was able to trick and make Frisk spare him with just his words in the Genocide Route even when Frisk is a coldblooded murderer[1]

Debunk: Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him), and nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu. They may have simply decided to play along to see how it plays out. The same thing was done by Flowey after all, as he does mention that he purposely lost every game and did everything that was possible to do in the Underground just to see what happens. I'd also remind y'all that Flowey is also supposed to be a reflection of the Player, as he does give you a tutorial, gives hints for how to complete the Pacifist Route (and gets mad if you don't do everything exactly how he says) and claims multiple times that Chara is the only one who understands him as they're not predictable like the other characters, who are just NPCs for him. I'd remind you all that Chara is written to be also a reflection of us, due to them being our desire to grind stats (yet not being actually us at the same time) and their name is chosen by us.

I'd remind you that the main point of Undertale and why that game is so popular is due to it having nigh-infinite outcomes and alternate dialogues depending on what we do in the story, something that Flowey himself also says very explicitly when we constantly go to check him at the end of Neutral.

Part 2

Argument: Drives Papyrus' crazy with his puns, is loved by almost everyone in Snowdin[3], is able to keep his job even though he sleeps all the time[4] and drives Undyne mad.

Debunk: None of this is SI. Let's check the things one by one:

• Papyrus hating Sans' puns is completely fanon. This blog lists a great deal of evidence on why Papyrus isn't exactly mad at them, but secretely enjoys them by his own admission and him also doing that.
• The "loved by everyone in Showdin" clip doesn't say anything on it.
• Undyne was never mad at Sans if I recall correctly, though a clip showing it would help for context. Not that Undyne is exactly very competent at hiring people, as we all know that she keeps Papyrus around for pure pity despite her thinking that he's not qualified, or the Royal Guard Dogs being in that position despite them being spareable from literally just petting them few times.

Part 3

Argument: Was capable of traumatizing Flowey to the point where even the mention of anything linked to Sans leaves him angry and nervous[5]

Debunk: Every hard boss fight should have SI due to it leaving people pissed at it because of how hard it is according to this logic. No. Sans has never passively instigated fear to anyone, he's mostly seen as a lazy bum ass, only people who fight him get to know this side of him, but normally? Nah. Frisk not being scared from Sans even proves my point more.

Res. to Fear Manipulation

Argument: Seemingly unaffected by Chara's presence and merely makes jokes about it,[1] which has been shown to make victim's unnaturally scared. A good example of this being Doggo who couldn't even see them or know if there was even someone there, Frisk also did the same to Flowey even though Flowey considers himself emotionless[5]

Debunk: Ok so... why is this assumed to be a resistance?. On the page in itself we have this: "Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage". We have multiple examples of people not being truly affected from Chara's aura:

• Mad Dummy
• Monster Kid managing to overcome their fear and still try to face Frisk
• Undyne

While we don't know what's going on for the other monsters, we have showings that with bravery/rage/confidence alone, you can overcome their fear aura. Sans isn't any different from this.

Invulnerability Negation

Argument: It ignores Frisk's INV frame, which makes them immune to other attacks after being hit for a short amount of time.

Debunk: Not only it's not entirely true, as there are items that increase the INV Frames, aka the Torn Notebook (+6 INV) and the Cloudy Glasses (+9 INV). In fact, as displayed in this Reddit post, getting fully hit while having both of these equipped significantly reduces the damage from KR compared to when you lack these.

Plus, checking the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through." The reason is simple, because Invulnerability isn't immunity to hax, is immunity to physical damage, there's no reason for it to shield from stuff such as Existence Erasure, Spatial Cutting, Mind Hax, etc., coz these all bypass the physical defense. I do agree that Sans has still Durability Negation due to KR killing with the same timeframe regardless of the DEF that Frisk has, but... yeah, Inv Negation seems to be added just for the sake of bloating Sans' profile and make him appear more impressive than he is.

Empathic Manipulation

Argument: When against Sans, the opponents passively feel guilt and regret as if their sins were literally crawling[1] and weighing on their backs[1]

Debunk: Being aware of your wrongs =/= feeling guilty for those. Not to mention this didn't stop Frisk from always fighting against Sans (and even reset the fight for the sake of killing him again twice). This also happened with Flowey, yet... he literally said that he doesn't learn anything from his defeats. While it's indeed true that the line of text still appears regardless if you killed Sans before, it definitely shouldn't be assumed that's guilt.

The hax should remain, but it's kinda irrelevant in a fight regardless, as it never made anyone felt guilty in-canon.

Teleportation

Argument: Capable of teleporting himself, others[3] and his attacks[1]

Debunk: While the rest is fine... where is the evidence of attacks being teleported? I don't exactly remember here.

4th Wall Breaking

Argument: Can change the battle boxes size, scretching it out[1]

Debunk: Huh, hm, ah. Nah, a lot of characters can manipulate the battle box without necessairly breaking the 4th wall (outside Flowey).

MUs that would need to be restored/removed

Now that this super wanked SI is out of the way, let's see what MUs were removed under this premise:

Spoiler: Lost MUs

Victories:

• Mister Fantastic (Marvel Comics) Mister Fantastic's Profile (Mister Fantastic was 8-C; Equipment: Standard Equipment only)
• Saitama (One-Punch Man) Saitama's Profile (Post-Training Saitama was used; Speed was equalized)
• Asgore (Undertale) Asgore’s Profile (Speed was equalized)
• Papyrus (Undertale) Papyrus' Profile

Losses:

• Ali (Ejen Ali) Ali's Profile (Pre-Data Erasure Override Mode Ali is used; Speed was equalized; Location: Judgement Hall; Starting Distance: 10 meters)
• Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog) Knuckles' Profile (Modern Knuckles was used and had access to Wisps; Speed was equalized; Location: Judgement Hall)
• Kris Dreemurr (Deltarune) Kris's Profile (Chapter 2 Kris was used. Speed was equalized)
• Kowalski (Madagascar) Kowalski's Profile (Speed was equalized)
• Annoying Orange (The Annoying Orange) Orange's Profile (Battle took place in an empty field. Both started 17 meters apart. Speed was equalized)

The fight with The Long Quiet should also be removed for this reason.

These seem fine just skimming through it. Agree for me. I’ll try and keep up with the thread and see how the counters progress incase my opinion changes.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You just shot yourself in the foot there... Sans also can, everyone in Genocide can (outside Papyrus), but none visually show it.

I conceded already.

I mean the fact that he never makes bones spawn outta nowhere mid-attack, the phrasing makes it seem that way.

Normally his GBs “come” to the battlefield, but in case of Teleportation in Phase 2 they are already where they need to be.

Mind linking a source for that. I only can find UT-related things when searching it.

Just logical interpretation of what it means. Unless you have a better interpretation. Feeling sins (on your back) means you’re guilty.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Normally his GBs “come” to the battlefield, but in case of Teleportation in Phase 2 they are already where they need to be.

Tbh that wording in Shion's blog makes it seem like that he can spawn bones mid air out of nowhere while you're already dodging stuff, while it's obviously not the case.

I just wanna a better wording, that's all.

Just logical interpretation of what it means. Unless you have a better interpretation. Feeling sins (on your back) means you’re guilty.

Tbh I can interpret it as being more conscious of it, but as guilt can be a consequence of it, so can indifference or even pleasure.

Regardless I'd want to still point out that it'd be basically irrelevant in matches as it has no real feats.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

OP looks mostly good, but about the Invulnerability negation. Looking at Frisk's profile, I am not even sure if that qualifies as invulnerability.

 

[ShionAH]

Idk even know whats happening now, does this really need 7 pages damn

I will make a new thread since this thread is getting too confusing