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Sans, for those who don't know, have had some matchups on his profile against actually pretty powerful opponents, and TWO SPECIFIC winning condition that is usually seen in each of these wins.
First, lets start off with the pure obvious: Soul Manipulation
Examples include: Saitama vs. Sans, Alastor vs Sans, and Goku Black vs Sans
To make it brief: Yes, it is true that what we see in Undertale is obvious; Sans and the other monsters attack the human soul numerous time throughout the game. However: this has been shown to ONLY affect the actual body. This is consistent with what Flowey tells us in the tutorial part of the game. Now, this begs the big question:
How can you have SOUL MANIPULATION if your attacks don't actually attack the soul?
This Q&A Thread goes over this very point in depth in the second question. Now obviously, most of the characters have since had their soul manipulation removed, HOWEVER: the previously mentioned VS Threads, these are still ON his profile without any question. Why is that? Now sure, it could be the fact that nobody bothered to change it due to the threads being some what old, but I feel like an evaluation on a character's whole profile should be done if they get a downgrade, INCLUDING VS Thread wins, losses, and etc.
Now, why did I REALLY make a thread for such a small issue? Well, I didn't. The main point of this thread is also talk about this
This thread reflects mainly what some people who contribute to the Sans profile or add onto it think of why Sans could win against others think. Not JUST in the VS threads but overall in battle.
Lets go over some of the claims, shall we?
"Karma isn't the reason he keeps full dura neg, it's the fact he ignores items that raise your defense no matter what, karma is just soul poison he inflicts with his attacks, the attacks themselves still ignore the durability of frisk regardless what defensive items they may be using."
This, although a understandable point, is overall invalid. Characters in a RPG (especially in this case, Undertale) should not be able to do 0 damage to the player, EVEN with the defense buffs. This ruins the whole point of the fight and makes fighting Sans meaningless, as Sans was ALWAYS meant to do the default and LOWEST damage possible, which is 1. This is similar to how Toby also caps off some aspects of the battles you do just so you don't "break the game", for lack of a better term. A good example to use is Asgore. Although this isn't usual in the game, if you get stacks of pies in your inventory, you can continually keep on dwindling down Asgore's ATK until it hits 1. It CANNOT go any lower than because that's unironically stupid. Another good example is Temmie Armor. If you keep dying and dying, the price of it will drop lower and lower to the point where its actually pretty cheap (9999G to 750G). Although this isn't relevant to ATK, it does correlate to the fact that there are LIMITS to what you can or can't do. You can't just use the excuse of 'having higher DEF will save you for all damage', because it would be redundant to even play the game at that point at all. The Sans fight is meant to be a CHALLENGE, not to be an AFK brawl.
"You know, the whole point of Sans' fight it's that he always ignores DEF, no matter what. In the same game Frisk cannot deal damage to Mettaton or Asriel right because their DEF is too high, meaning that if it's not able to deal 1 damage, then it's 0 damage, but Sans just wouldn't care and still deals his usual 1 damage per frame, right because of the KR thing.
Meaning that Sans should always be able to deal 1 damage, no matter what, right because of his KR ignoring DEF completely. This is not like the normal monsters' magic where they have to also deal with the physical durability in order to deal damage, because the KR ignores it completely and just depletes the HP of the SOUL."
What is this comparison? Frisk can't hit Asriel because he is literally flying. Unless you're trying to say that Frisk and Asriel were like 1m away from each other, which is clearly not the case at the end of the fight. Mettaton doesn't get any damage because his metal body is what makes him invulnerable. If you want to say that "then why wasn't Mettaton EX invulnerable?", its because that form is much more fragile and is easier to take apart than his base. Meanwhile his base was MADE to be super tough. He literally tanks and brushes off the yellow mode's bullets like its nothing. While his EX form...well, we know what happened to it.
"Plus you forget that Sans' whole reason behind dura neg is not just SOUL attacks, but the fact that he can damage stack, making the "death from a million cuts" logic on a spiritual level.
You lack proof of KR being limited from the DEF stat unlike the other monsters, given that what we have in hand show him just ignoring it."
What??? Sans attacking the SOUL is just attacking your BODY. There's no proof insinuating that KR is a soul-hax, it's just a poison effect that harms you.
"Sans' attacks go through Frisk's soul, Frisk does not tank Sans' attacks as physical and they do the same damage no matter how beefed up in armor Frisk is.
KR is icing on the cake for his dura neg, it is not the meat and potatoes, saying "But that's the minimum!" Is the point, it doesn't matter how much or how little armor Frisk has on, Sans' attacks do the same thing with the same effects."
Game logic is being put as actual logic from an RPG now?? Sans' attacks go through the soul of the player, which I have ALREADY ESTABLISHED in this thread is the body, is just Sans ignoring the I-Frames. The way I-Frames work is that you become invincible (obviously) to the attacks, but that attack disappears. However, some of the monster's attacks literally don't disappear at all. So what's with that??
KR overall is just a poison-type status effect that is induced onto somebody. There's nothing much too it that can make it seem so powerful.
What would I like to see?
To be honest, remove the wins from his profile and count it as outdated in those threads, it just seems so stupid and ignorant to just say just because Sans can manipulate one's soul he can instant kill 2-B, 2-C, etc characters. This thread is also, like I said before, to just count out the thought process of how karma works when theres clear counterarguments to it. If anybody has any questions or problems with it, I would be more than welcome to discuss about this issue in the replies below.
Oh, and I hope you guys agree with this too.
First, lets start off with the pure obvious: Soul Manipulation
Examples include: Saitama vs. Sans, Alastor vs Sans, and Goku Black vs Sans
To make it brief: Yes, it is true that what we see in Undertale is obvious; Sans and the other monsters attack the human soul numerous time throughout the game. However: this has been shown to ONLY affect the actual body. This is consistent with what Flowey tells us in the tutorial part of the game. Now, this begs the big question:
How can you have SOUL MANIPULATION if your attacks don't actually attack the soul?
This Q&A Thread goes over this very point in depth in the second question. Now obviously, most of the characters have since had their soul manipulation removed, HOWEVER: the previously mentioned VS Threads, these are still ON his profile without any question. Why is that? Now sure, it could be the fact that nobody bothered to change it due to the threads being some what old, but I feel like an evaluation on a character's whole profile should be done if they get a downgrade, INCLUDING VS Thread wins, losses, and etc.
Now, why did I REALLY make a thread for such a small issue? Well, I didn't. The main point of this thread is also talk about this
This thread reflects mainly what some people who contribute to the Sans profile or add onto it think of why Sans could win against others think. Not JUST in the VS threads but overall in battle.
Lets go over some of the claims, shall we?
"Karma isn't the reason he keeps full dura neg, it's the fact he ignores items that raise your defense no matter what, karma is just soul poison he inflicts with his attacks, the attacks themselves still ignore the durability of frisk regardless what defensive items they may be using."
This, although a understandable point, is overall invalid. Characters in a RPG (especially in this case, Undertale) should not be able to do 0 damage to the player, EVEN with the defense buffs. This ruins the whole point of the fight and makes fighting Sans meaningless, as Sans was ALWAYS meant to do the default and LOWEST damage possible, which is 1. This is similar to how Toby also caps off some aspects of the battles you do just so you don't "break the game", for lack of a better term. A good example to use is Asgore. Although this isn't usual in the game, if you get stacks of pies in your inventory, you can continually keep on dwindling down Asgore's ATK until it hits 1. It CANNOT go any lower than because that's unironically stupid. Another good example is Temmie Armor. If you keep dying and dying, the price of it will drop lower and lower to the point where its actually pretty cheap (9999G to 750G). Although this isn't relevant to ATK, it does correlate to the fact that there are LIMITS to what you can or can't do. You can't just use the excuse of 'having higher DEF will save you for all damage', because it would be redundant to even play the game at that point at all. The Sans fight is meant to be a CHALLENGE, not to be an AFK brawl.
"You know, the whole point of Sans' fight it's that he always ignores DEF, no matter what. In the same game Frisk cannot deal damage to Mettaton or Asriel right because their DEF is too high, meaning that if it's not able to deal 1 damage, then it's 0 damage, but Sans just wouldn't care and still deals his usual 1 damage per frame, right because of the KR thing.
Meaning that Sans should always be able to deal 1 damage, no matter what, right because of his KR ignoring DEF completely. This is not like the normal monsters' magic where they have to also deal with the physical durability in order to deal damage, because the KR ignores it completely and just depletes the HP of the SOUL."
What is this comparison? Frisk can't hit Asriel because he is literally flying. Unless you're trying to say that Frisk and Asriel were like 1m away from each other, which is clearly not the case at the end of the fight. Mettaton doesn't get any damage because his metal body is what makes him invulnerable. If you want to say that "then why wasn't Mettaton EX invulnerable?", its because that form is much more fragile and is easier to take apart than his base. Meanwhile his base was MADE to be super tough. He literally tanks and brushes off the yellow mode's bullets like its nothing. While his EX form...well, we know what happened to it.
"Plus you forget that Sans' whole reason behind dura neg is not just SOUL attacks, but the fact that he can damage stack, making the "death from a million cuts" logic on a spiritual level.
You lack proof of KR being limited from the DEF stat unlike the other monsters, given that what we have in hand show him just ignoring it."
What??? Sans attacking the SOUL is just attacking your BODY. There's no proof insinuating that KR is a soul-hax, it's just a poison effect that harms you.
"Sans' attacks go through Frisk's soul, Frisk does not tank Sans' attacks as physical and they do the same damage no matter how beefed up in armor Frisk is.
KR is icing on the cake for his dura neg, it is not the meat and potatoes, saying "But that's the minimum!" Is the point, it doesn't matter how much or how little armor Frisk has on, Sans' attacks do the same thing with the same effects."
Game logic is being put as actual logic from an RPG now?? Sans' attacks go through the soul of the player, which I have ALREADY ESTABLISHED in this thread is the body, is just Sans ignoring the I-Frames. The way I-Frames work is that you become invincible (obviously) to the attacks, but that attack disappears. However, some of the monster's attacks literally don't disappear at all. So what's with that??
So what's my conclusion for all of this?
Well, I'm not trying to remove any abilities from Sans at all, but I am trying to update the reasoning for why he would win against X when being compared. People get Sans all wrong and think that his KR or Soul Manipulation is this "Hail Mary" hax that will save him despite being a lower tiered character.KR overall is just a poison-type status effect that is induced onto somebody. There's nothing much too it that can make it seem so powerful.
What would I like to see?
To be honest, remove the wins from his profile and count it as outdated in those threads, it just seems so stupid and ignorant to just say just because Sans can manipulate one's soul he can instant kill 2-B, 2-C, etc characters. This thread is also, like I said before, to just count out the thought process of how karma works when theres clear counterarguments to it. If anybody has any questions or problems with it, I would be more than welcome to discuss about this issue in the replies below.
Oh, and I hope you guys agree with this too.
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