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"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!
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Me and Shion answered on Empathic thing. Unless you want to argue that Geno Frisk gives a shit about killing people, aka go against the game…
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This CRT is just too big and long anyway.
Imma make a downgrade if anything gets passed, simple as that.
Imma make a downgrade if anything gets passed, simple as that.
Eden_Warlock99
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Ehh, Flowey kinda did back when he did it, constantly trying to justify himself and the such.
Think the best argument for it being a sans thing and not Frisk just feeling bad, is that it still activates even after you've killed Sans twice and are fighting him again, and that it seems to ramp up the more KARMA you have, which sorta suggests that KARMA is what triggers it.
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We're talking about Genocide Frisk, not Abort Genocide one
Eden_Warlock99
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I believe you can still get to LV19 in an Aborted Genocide route, so don't think they're all that different.
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No, the highest is LV 17, because MTT NEO gives much less EXP. Also you don't fight Sans on Aborted Genocide Route
Eden_Warlock99
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Oh, ok, it was LV 18 then.
But anyways, Sans does not fight us here, only on Genocide. Abort Genocide means you have at least some humanity and mercy, even if slightest.
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Is it said somewhere in the rules?
If staff don't even bother to reply to my shit, then I'll force them to, simple as that.
Eden_Warlock99
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There's a rule that says you need to wait 3 months before you can change something that was accepted in a CRT.
Too lazy to look for it tho
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It does not, it says for only rejected CRTs, not approved ones.
Plus Charmander already did this for the cosmology once, Ayewale did also for ATLA's 5-C stuff, so I should be fine.
CodeCCLL
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This rule applies to things that have been rejected for inclusion or accepted for removal.
You can definitely do this.
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The ONLY staff that came here is Abandon, and they didn't reply to despite being online a lot of times after. They'd have replied to me if they bothered to.
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Who's more annoying, me or Strym?You are annoying
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This thread is so damn long that I heavily doubt any staff would be willing to. Better to restart from zero.
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I am typing a Sandbox with everything there.
I dunno if turning this in a downgrade thread (I'll axe Sans even having SI in the 1st place ngl), or just making one if this one passes.
I dunno if turning this in a downgrade thread (I'll axe Sans even having SI in the 1st place ngl), or just making one if this one passes.
Eden_Warlock99
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I do believe a new thread that actually lists ALL the changes in the OP, maybe even addresses some of the counter-arguments and the such, would be better.
ShionAH
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- Thread starter
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"If Strym abused the staff, he might 'cause me a little trouble..."
But would you lose?
"Nah, I'd wank."
Strym easily, your "Fire Manipulation only works in fodder speeds" is the only one really that pissed me off.
Anyways Ig I'll make a new crt and shut off Stryms bs there
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I don’t think that’s even close
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People here really do be acting as if I am Charmander and I didn't pull the verse out of the downplayfest that was infecting it.
You guys really do remember only the inconvenient stuff huh?
You guys really do remember only the inconvenient stuff huh?
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Well now you gotta downgrade like 95% of the verse down to Peak Human Stamina
Cause several minute fights aren't sufficient for that
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Don't u mean 10-C coz "they all are weak to angry kids"?
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Oh nvm I got what u meant.
Meh imo Superhuman stamina is ok, they have also other feats, but that's derailing now, wouldn't it?
Meh imo Superhuman stamina is ok, they have also other feats, but that's derailing now, wouldn't it?
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@GodlyCharmander is a very annoying and ass Undertale/Deltarune downplayer who was overfixated with making the verse 2-C at best, other than using multiple socks after being perma'd (@TioKill, @Sans015 and @The_Yellow_Topaz, latter two were found by me lmao).
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Some of them do! Like Asgore, Mettaton, Flowey, and the two humans... I couldn't find anyone else who had a proper reason for it lol
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Undyne also should tbh...
But ya, make ur CRT on it as it's kinda irrelevant here rn. Sans' stamina here is barely Average.
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Anyway, I'll just wait for this to be added before I make the CRT then.
Like a lion waiting for its prey to make a mistake before attacking.
Like a lion waiting for its prey to make a mistake before attacking.
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2 is the minimum, yes.
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Also, there's a pretty simple explanation for this: Frisk doesn't use AOE attacks. Why teleport out of the way of a simple knife swing when you can just dodge regularly?
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Update: The thing is done and is suprisingly short. I may want to take @AbaddonTheDisappointment's attention once again if they still care about it tho.
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I talked with @Maverick_Zero_X and she expressed interest in commenting here and reading my concerns. I did think about it and it's pretty foolish to let a CRT pass if I can just stop in its tracks, right?
Anyway, let's go!
Social Influencing (Part 1)
Part 1
Argument: Sans was able to trick and make Frisk spare him with just his words in the Genocide Route even when Frisk is a coldblooded murderer[1]
Debunk: Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him), and nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu. They may have simply decided to play along to see how it plays out. The same thing was done by Flowey after all, as he does mention that he purposely lost every game and did everything that was possible to do in the Underground just to see what happens. I'd also remind y'all that Flowey is also supposed to be a reflection of the Player, as he does give you a tutorial, gives hints for how to complete the Pacifist Route (and gets mad if you don't do everything exactly how he says) and claims multiple times that Chara is the only one who understands him as they're not predictable like the other characters, who are just NPCs for him. I'd remind you all that Chara is written to be also a reflection of us, due to them being our desire to grind stats (yet not being actually us at the same time) and their name is chosen by us.
I'd remind you that the main point of Undertale and why that game is so popular is due to it having nigh-infinite outcomes and alternate dialogues depending on what we do in the story, something that Flowey himself also says very explicitly when we constantly go to check him at the end of Neutral.
Part 2
Argument: Drives Papyrus' crazy with his puns, is loved by almost everyone in Snowdin[3], is able to keep his job even though he sleeps all the time[4] and drives Undyne mad.
Debunk: None of this is SI. Let's check the things one by one:
Argument: Was capable of traumatizing Flowey to the point where even the mention of anything linked to Sans leaves him angry and nervous[5]
Debunk: Every hard boss fight should have SI due to it leaving people pissed at it because of how hard it is according to this logic. No. Sans has never passively instigated fear to anyone, he's mostly seen as a lazy bum ass, only people who fight him get to know this side of him, but normally? Nah. Frisk not being scared from Sans even proves my point more.
Res. to Fear Manipulation
Argument: Seemingly unaffected by Chara's presence and merely makes jokes about it,[1] which has been shown to make victim's unnaturally scared. A good example of this being Doggo who couldn't even see them or know if there was even someone there, Frisk also did the same to Flowey even though Flowey considers himself emotionless[5]
Debunk: Ok so... why is this assumed to be a resistance?. On the page in itself we have this: "Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage". We have multiple examples of people not being truly affected from Chara's aura:
While we don't know what's going on for the other monsters, we have showings that with bravery/rage/confidence alone, you can overcome their fear aura. Sans isn't any different from this.
Invulnerability Negation
Argument: It ignores Frisk's INV frame, which makes them immune to other attacks after being hit for a short amount of time.
Debunk: Not only it's not entirely true, as there are items that increase the INV Frames, aka the Torn Notebook (+6 INV) and the Cloudy Glasses (+9 INV). In fact, as displayed in this Reddit post, getting fully hit while having both of these equipped significantly reduces the damage from KR compared to when you lack these.
Plus, checking the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through." The reason is simple, because Invulnerability isn't immunity to hax, is immunity to physical damage, there's no reason for it to shield from stuff such as Existence Erasure, Spatial Cutting, Mind Hax, etc., coz these all bypass the physical defense. I do agree that Sans has still Durability Negation due to KR killing with the same timeframe regardless of the DEF that Frisk has, but... yeah, Inv Negation seems to be added just for the sake of bloating Sans' profile and make him appear more impressive than he is.
Empathic Manipulation
Argument: When against Sans, the opponents passively feel guilt and regret as if their sins were literally crawling[1] and weighing on their backs[1]
Debunk: Being aware of your wrongs =/= feeling guilty for those. Not to mention this didn't stop Frisk from always fighting against Sans (and even reset the fight for the sake of killing him again twice). This also happened with Flowey, yet... he literally said that he doesn't learn anything from his defeats. While it's indeed true that the line of text still appears regardless if you killed Sans before, it definitely shouldn't be assumed that's guilt.
The hax should remain, but it's kinda irrelevant in a fight regardless, as it never made anyone felt guilty in-canon.
Teleportation
Argument: Capable of teleporting himself, others[3] and his attacks[1]
Debunk: While the rest is fine... where is the evidence of attacks being teleported? I don't exactly remember here.
4th Wall Breaking
Argument: Can change the battle boxes size, scretching it out[1]
Debunk: Huh, hm, ah. Nah, a lot of characters can manipulate the battle box without necessairly breaking the 4th wall (outside Flowey).
MUs that would need to be restored/removed
Now that this super wanked SI is out of the way, let's see what MUs were removed under this premise:
The fight with The Long Quiet and with Shinpei should also be removed for this reason.
Anyway, let's go!
Social Influencing (Part 1)
Part 1
Argument: Sans was able to trick and make Frisk spare him with just his words in the Genocide Route even when Frisk is a coldblooded murderer[1]
Debunk: Nothing says that Frisk canonically always falls for it (otherwise how would they be able to beat him), and nothing says that they did because they bought Sans' talk no jutsu. They may have simply decided to play along to see how it plays out. The same thing was done by Flowey after all, as he does mention that he purposely lost every game and did everything that was possible to do in the Underground just to see what happens. I'd also remind y'all that Flowey is also supposed to be a reflection of the Player, as he does give you a tutorial, gives hints for how to complete the Pacifist Route (and gets mad if you don't do everything exactly how he says) and claims multiple times that Chara is the only one who understands him as they're not predictable like the other characters, who are just NPCs for him. I'd remind you all that Chara is written to be also a reflection of us, due to them being our desire to grind stats (yet not being actually us at the same time) and their name is chosen by us.
I'd remind you that the main point of Undertale and why that game is so popular is due to it having nigh-infinite outcomes and alternate dialogues depending on what we do in the story, something that Flowey himself also says very explicitly when we constantly go to check him at the end of Neutral.
Part 2
Argument: Drives Papyrus' crazy with his puns, is loved by almost everyone in Snowdin[3], is able to keep his job even though he sleeps all the time[4] and drives Undyne mad.
Debunk: None of this is SI. Let's check the things one by one:
- Papyrus hating Sans' puns is completely fanon. This blog lists a great deal of evidence on why Papyrus isn't exactly mad at them, but secretely enjoys them by his own admission and him also doing that.
- The "loved by everyone in Showdin" clip doesn't say anything on it.
- Undyne was never mad at Sans if I recall correctly, though a clip showing it would help for context. Not that Undyne is exactly very competent at hiring people, as we all know that she keeps Papyrus around for pure pity despite her thinking that he's not qualified, or the Royal Guard Dogs being in that position despite them being spareable from literally just petting them few times.
Argument: Was capable of traumatizing Flowey to the point where even the mention of anything linked to Sans leaves him angry and nervous[5]
Debunk: Every hard boss fight should have SI due to it leaving people pissed at it because of how hard it is according to this logic. No. Sans has never passively instigated fear to anyone, he's mostly seen as a lazy bum ass, only people who fight him get to know this side of him, but normally? Nah. Frisk not being scared from Sans even proves my point more.
Res. to Fear Manipulation
Argument: Seemingly unaffected by Chara's presence and merely makes jokes about it,[1] which has been shown to make victim's unnaturally scared. A good example of this being Doggo who couldn't even see them or know if there was even someone there, Frisk also did the same to Flowey even though Flowey considers himself emotionless[5]
Debunk: Ok so... why is this assumed to be a resistance?. On the page in itself we have this: "Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage". We have multiple examples of people not being truly affected from Chara's aura:
While we don't know what's going on for the other monsters, we have showings that with bravery/rage/confidence alone, you can overcome their fear aura. Sans isn't any different from this.
Invulnerability Negation
Argument: It ignores Frisk's INV frame, which makes them immune to other attacks after being hit for a short amount of time.
Debunk: Not only it's not entirely true, as there are items that increase the INV Frames, aka the Torn Notebook (+6 INV) and the Cloudy Glasses (+9 INV). In fact, as displayed in this Reddit post, getting fully hit while having both of these equipped significantly reduces the damage from KR compared to when you lack these.
Plus, checking the Invulnerability page: "Characters with such powers may simply be unaffected by normal attacks, necessitating the use of things like Durability Negation to get through." The reason is simple, because Invulnerability isn't immunity to hax, is immunity to physical damage, there's no reason for it to shield from stuff such as Existence Erasure, Spatial Cutting, Mind Hax, etc., coz these all bypass the physical defense. I do agree that Sans has still Durability Negation due to KR killing with the same timeframe regardless of the DEF that Frisk has, but... yeah, Inv Negation seems to be added just for the sake of bloating Sans' profile and make him appear more impressive than he is.
Empathic Manipulation
Argument: When against Sans, the opponents passively feel guilt and regret as if their sins were literally crawling[1] and weighing on their backs[1]
Debunk: Being aware of your wrongs =/= feeling guilty for those. Not to mention this didn't stop Frisk from always fighting against Sans (and even reset the fight for the sake of killing him again twice). This also happened with Flowey, yet... he literally said that he doesn't learn anything from his defeats. While it's indeed true that the line of text still appears regardless if you killed Sans before, it definitely shouldn't be assumed that's guilt.
The hax should remain, but it's kinda irrelevant in a fight regardless, as it never made anyone felt guilty in-canon.
Teleportation
Argument: Capable of teleporting himself, others[3] and his attacks[1]
Debunk: While the rest is fine... where is the evidence of attacks being teleported? I don't exactly remember here.
4th Wall Breaking
Argument: Can change the battle boxes size, scretching it out[1]
Debunk: Huh, hm, ah. Nah, a lot of characters can manipulate the battle box without necessairly breaking the 4th wall (outside Flowey).
MUs that would need to be restored/removed
Now that this super wanked SI is out of the way, let's see what MUs were removed under this premise:
Victories:
Losses:
- Mister Fantastic (Marvel Comics) Mister Fantastic's Profile (Mister Fantastic was 8-C; Equipment: Standard Equipment only)
- Saitama (One-Punch Man) Saitama's Profile (Post-Training Saitama was used; Speed was equalized)
- Asgore (Undertale) Asgore’s Profile (Speed was equalized)
- Papyrus (Undertale) Papyrus' Profile
Losses:
- Ali (Ejen Ali) Ali's Profile (Pre-Data Erasure Override Mode Ali is used; Speed was equalized; Location: Judgement Hall; Starting Distance: 10 meters)
- Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog) Knuckles' Profile (Modern Knuckles was used and had access to Wisps; Speed was equalized; Location: Judgement Hall)
- Kris Dreemurr (Deltarune) Kris's Profile (Chapter 2 Kris was used. Speed was equalized)
- Kowalski (Madagascar) Kowalski's Profile (Speed was equalized)
- Annoying Orange (The Annoying Orange) Orange's Profile (Battle took place in an empty field. Both started 17 meters apart. Speed was equalized)
The fight with The Long Quiet and with Shinpei should also be removed for this reason.
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Ouch, my eyes.
I can agree on SI ig.
Sans was never depicted as extraordinaly brave and stuff, neither narratively nor by statements. Mad Dummy is just, y'know, MAD. Undyne is a brave hero narratively.
Undertale's INV does not fit actual Invulnurability standards, they just make Frisk intangible and Sans' attacks bypass that because they are intangible in the first place. So yeah.
Frisk/Player does it because "they can", not because they're good or evil, hence why guilt doesn't really work on them.
Second phase. He teleports and his attacks change
Sure, but the ability should remain
Sure
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Wait, I just remembered something: Frisk is actually evil on Genocide, they enjoy punching dummy and have "
" when finding new monster to kill. MTT NEO also says you’re not pure evil if you abort Genocide in Hotland but doesn’t say that on Genocide itself. Sans says that they only continue fighting just because they can and not for the sake of being good/evil, but that doesn’t mean Frisk not evil at all.
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I did not have better YT clips lmao.
Ok but Monster Kid? Plus, again, confidence is something that can overcome fear, something Sans definitely has here.
He teleports, sure. But his bones do not.
Did I say it should be removed? I only want to remove that bit.
This happens also in Neutral.
I don't see what's the point of this. I am only removing the part of Frisk feeling guilty as that's nowhere said in-verse. You can perfectly be aware that what you're doing is ****** up yet you enjoy doing that anyway, Flowey is literally that, and we become like him in Genocides, because the reason why we do that is literally why he also did it, for curiosity.
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