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(GRACE) 2 Yonko Commanders fighting Fire with Fire!

WrongIdea21 said:
I'll vote King.

King have AP and Speed amps. Also I don't quite understand how Ace would damage King with his Flame due to King's Fire resistance.
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I mean he could try close quarters combat, but even then King has stat amps and buso haki (and blitzes if the flame is off).
 
WrongIdea21 said:
I'll vote King.

King have AP and Speed amps. Also I don't quite understand how Ace would damage King with his Flame due to King's Fire resistance.
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Ryuga21 said:
Can't Ace just put out the flames on King's back by absorbing it? This would be a great counter to his durability, and I believe King's Speed Amp isn't that much of a problem, as Ace has already reacted to attacks from Whitebeard, the admirals, can also boost his own speed with fire and has far better precog.

Ace's flames are so hot that it even burned Whitebeard's skin, who has an absurd resistance to heat, I don't know if King could handle them. King's advantage would be at close range, as Ace doesn't master physical combat, but his feats, like keeping up with Yamato and Jinbe (two natural fighters at close range as well) don't allow me to assume he'd be stomped in that regard.

Area of effect is an absurd advantage for Ace whether with dragons, Hiken or Entei, things Ace can spam (remember the first Hiken Ace launched in the series, so vast it swallowed multiple ships easily). Frankly I think Ace wins but King is a better fighter I would say. Ace likely wins with high difficulty.
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Ngl Ryuga's comment hasn't been entirely debunked at all but I don't care lol.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Ngl Ryuga's comment hasn't been entirely debunked at all but I don't care lol.
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I'll comment on the parts I disagree with from that post.
Ryuga21 said:
Can't Ace just put out the flames on King's back by absorbing it? This would be a great counter to his durability
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King can ignite his flames at will so even if it was possible for Ace King could turn it back on instantly, but as I mentioned in an earlier post it wouldn't come to this since Haki would potentially negate Ace doing this.
Ryuga21 said:
and I believe King's Speed Amp isn't that much of a problem, as Ace has already reacted to attacks from Whitebeard, the admirals, can also boost his own speed with fire
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Old Whitebeard, Kuzan and Akainu aren't anywhere near as fast as Flame-Off King who moved FTE to Zoro. And we don't have a clear idea of how much faster flame accelerated Ace is than his base.
Ryuga21 said:
Ace's flames are so hot that it even burned Whitebeard's skin, who has an absurd resistance to heat, I don't know if King could handle them.
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Whitebeard's resistance to heat comes from Akainu's ambient heat (Idk why his profile claims he resisted direct attacks from Akainu's magma because we blatantly see that didn't happen), Luffy also resisted this level of heat and through Luffy Zoro's own heat resistance scales who King was able to burn.
 
Eminiteable said:
I'll comment on the parts I disagree with from that post.

King can ignite his flames at will so even if it was possible for Ace King could turn it back on instantly, but as I mentioned in an earlier post it wouldn't come to this since Haki would potentially negate Ace doing this.

Old Whitebeard, Kuzan and Akainu aren't anywhere near as fast as Flame-Off King who moved FTE to Zoro. And we don't have a clear idea of how much faster flame accelerated Ace is than his base.

Whitebeard's resistance to heat comes from Akainu's ambient heat (Idk why his profile claims he resisted direct attacks from Akainu's magma because we blatantly see that didn't happen), Luffy also resisted this level of heat and through Luffy Zoro's own heat resistance scales who King was able to burn.
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Again if Ace let off Conqueror's King would also get his fruit negged so that Haki part applies to both fighters
Kuzan blitzed Doflamingo ( an Observation user ) iirc. Akainu was able to react to and counter Marco, who is also a skilled Observation user.
Did Zoro get hit/hurt by King's flames at all? Genuine question, I forgot.
Luffy's heat resistance is wonky. He can resist Akainu's ambient heat but things like Heavenly Bonbon still do a little damage to him. Then in G5 he had his hand on Kaidou for a second while Kaidou was in his flaming drum dragon form, and he responded by simply blowing on his hand and saying " hot " despite Kaidou arguably being as hot as magma at the moment.
Also if Ace could burn King then King being extremely durable won't matter at all.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Again if Ace let off Conqueror's King would also get his fruit negged so that Haki part applies to both fighters
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I already addressed this:
Eminiteable said:
Hao infusion when activate passively outputs Hao as shown with BM and Zoro himself, if Hao was enough to do that to King it would have happened with Zoro.
Click to expand...
TheMonkeMan said:
Kuzan blitzed Doflamingo ( an Observation user ) iirc. Akainu was able to react to and counter Marco, who is also a skilled Observation user.
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Doffy is Rel+ while King and everyone relevant is FTL. Akainu if anything got tagged by Marco and intercepted by him which would suggest him being relative or slower.
TheMonkeMan said:
Did Zoro get hit/hurt by King's flames at all? Genuine question, I forgot.
Click to expand...
He got hit by a fire infused kick.
TheMonkeMan said:
Luffy's heat resistance is wonky. He can resist Akainu's ambient heat but things like Heavenly Bonbon still do a little damage to him. Then in G5 he had his hand on Kaidou for a second while Kaidou was in his flaming drum dragon form, and he responded by simply blowing on his hand and saying " hot " despite Kaidou arguably being as hot as magma at the moment.
Click to expand...
All this means is that level of fire from BM & Kaidou scale above Akainu's ambient heat.
 
Eminiteable said:
Hao infusion when activate passively outputs Hao as shown with BM and Zoro himself, if Hao was enough to do that to King it would have happened with Zoro.
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Big Mom also had advanced hao, and she knew to output Haki on the rooftop battle so they didn't just teleport her off the roof. Law even confirmed that.
Eminiteable said:
Doffy is Rel+ while King and everyone relevant is FTL. Akainu if anything got tagged by Marco and intercepted by him which would suggest him being relative or slower.
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Marco and Vista sliced his neck behind him and he was able to do a Katakuri and move his neck when they tried it. When did Marco tag Akainu besides that sneak attack I just mentioned? At most he blocked or clashed with his attacks.
Eminiteable said:
He got hit by a fire infused kick.

All this means is that level of fire from BM & Kaidou scale above Akainu's ambient heat.
Click to expand...
1: Fair, I guess he did.
2: Akainu's ambient heat vaporized a sword. Big Mom's attack didn't vaporize the ground the Supernova trio were standing on.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Big Mom also had advanced hao, and she knew to output Haki on the rooftop battle so they didn't just teleport her off the roof. Law even confirmed that.
Click to expand...
Why are you assuming haki negation is Hao exclusive in the first place? Her passive Haki was enough to prevent law's fruit abilities from effecting her.

Zoro using Hao infusion didn't effect King's usage of his Zoan forms, so your assumption that Ace's weaker version of Hao will effect him is wrong.
TheMonkeMan said:
Marco and Vista sliced his neck behind him and he was able to do a Katakuri and move his neck when they tried it. When did Marco tag Akainu besides that sneak attack I just mentioned? At most he blocked or clashed with his attacks.
Click to expand...
They attacked him from his front and he didn't use a "katakuri move" at all, their haki was less potent than his and was unable to attack his real body. This is accepted on the profiles.

Marco intercepted Akainu and blocked his attack when he attempted to attack Jinbe and Luffy.
TheMonkeMan said:
2: Akainu's ambient heat vaporized a sword. Big Mom's attack didn't vaporize the ground the Supernova trio were standing on.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter, she burned Luffy who is unaffected by that same ambient heat.
 
SnookB said:
Maybe that's pushing it. We see him controlling regular fire yes, but he ain't controlling Marco's fire, probably not the homies since they're souls either. I'm not gonna assume he can do it with King either, or if it'd work the same way it would if KING switched it for offense either.
Click to expand...
Zoans do this, they control natural elements. Crocodile didn't need to generate all the sand in a desert to use it at will against Luffy. Marco's flames are not ordinary flames, they have special properties according to Marco himself and affect souls. King's flames on the other hand are natural flames (there is literally no mention of his flames being magma-like, ie headcanon). Assuming Ace can manipulate King's flames is totally consistent with the premise of his Devil Fruit to be honest.

Eminiteable said:
King can ignite his flames at will so even if it was possible for Ace King could turn it back on instantly, but as I mentioned in an earlier post it wouldn't come to this since Haki would potentially negate Ace doing this.
Click to expand...
Nothing stops Ace to he keeps absorbing his flames, as shown in the fight against BB, he does this by thought as well. Show me King putting haki on his flames and having the knowledge that his haki can do this, (Since Law clearly says that he could only use this Haki ability because he learned it by watching the Yonko, but we don't know if King has this knowledge) and if he can actually nullify all abilities by superiority in haki, then the fight is pointless and he stomps. Tbh, this whole idea of Haki nullifying abilities needs to be explained further in the series, as not even Whitebeard with his advanced haki did that fighting characters that depended entirely on Devil Fruit.

Ace reacted to blows from a Whitebeard before illness in old age, who tied himself with Shanks. Is Emi saying that King blitzes Shanks heavily? Incidentally, Akainu managed to keep up with Marco and Vista at same time, and Ace reacted to his hits. I know King is faster moving, but he won't repeat what Kizaru did to the supernovas in this fight, and Ace still has better CoO to help him.

Kicking someone with a burning leg is different from burning someone beyond they resistance. Ace clearly burned WB's hand, to the point of sparks and smoke from his skin, Has King ever done this with Zoro? or did it just make him feel pain from the force of the flaming kick?
 
Ryuga21 said:
King's flames on the other hand are natural flames (there is literally no mention of his flames being magma-like, ie headcanon)
Click to expand...
The flames he used against Zoro in the final chapter of the fight are.
Ryuga21 said:
Show me King putting haki on his flames and having the knowledge that his haki can do this, (Since Law clearly says that he could only use this Haki ability because he learned it by watching the Yonko, but we don't know if King has this knowledge)
Click to expand...
Intermediate Buso can do that, we see this with characters who can infuse objects or even force outside their body with buso (for example Zoro with his sword or flying slashes).

It's a basic haki ability, it goes back to Rayleigh's first explanation on Haki and was even touched on during Law's introduction in Punk Hazard with Smoker and Vergo. There isn't some hidden haki technique to do this, all Law states is "those powers (devil fruits) can't withstand intense enough Haki".
Ryuga21 said:
Ace reacted to blows from a Whitebeard before illness in old age, who tied himself with Shanks. Is Emi saying that King blitzes Shanks heavily? Incidentally, Akainu managed to keep up with Marco and Vista at same time, and Ace reacted to his hits. I know King is faster moving, but he won't repeat what Kizaru did to the supernovas in this fight, and Ace still has better CoO to help him.
Click to expand...
Shanks seemingly blitzed Akainu so no I don't think King would blitz Shanks. However Old Whitebeard was not equal to Shanks' full speed, He attacked Shanks who blocked his hit; in that exchange Shanks can remain faster as he was not intending to truly fight the Whitebeard Pirates.

Marco on his own also reacted to Akainu's hits and even intercepted them, he also landed hits on Akainu before he could react. Akainu keeping up with both of them isn't due to him being vastly faster than them.
Ryuga21 said:
Kicking someone with a burning leg is different from burning someone beyond they resistance. Ace clearly burned WB's hand, to the point of sparks and smoke from his skin, Has King ever done this with Zoro? or did it just make him feel pain from the force of the flaming kick?
Click to expand...
Zoro's upper body was smoking after the kick.
 
Eminiteable said:
Why are you assuming haki negation is Hao exclusive in the first place? Her passive Haki was enough to prevent law's fruit abilities from effecting her.

Zoro using Hao infusion didn't effect King's usage of his Zoan forms, so your assumption that Ace's weaker version of Hao will effect him is wrong.
Click to expand...
Dude, that's just how Hao infusion works. The waves it sets off when used by an experienced user don't neg DF effects for some reason ( unless the user is specifically trying to stop their opponent from using their DF ), but it seems regular conq does. Example:
Yamato slams Aramaki into the ground with an ACoC strike and it didn't turn off his Logia form despite her using Haki that's way better than his.
Shanks unleashes a Conq wave on Aramaki and he falls out of his Logia form and surrenders.
Clearly you need to have actual intent behind your Haki usage to nullify an opponent's DF. Otherwise the most it'll do is just knock out fodder.
 
Eminiteable said:
The flames he used against Zoro in the final chapter of the fight are.
Click to expand...
The whole debate about King's flame dragon move being as hot as magma is probably a misconception, I don't see why they would be as hot as magma, and I especially don't see why those would be as hot as magma but none of Ace's attacks are, despite him controlling fire?
Eminiteable said:
Shanks seemingly blitzed Akainu so no I don't think King would blitz Shanks. However Old Whitebeard was not equal to Shanks' full speed, He attacked Shanks who blocked his hit; in that exchange Shanks can remain faster as he was not intending to truly fight the Whitebeard Pirates.
Click to expand...
Does he know that Ace was also fast enough to intercept various hits from Akainu?
 
Eminiteable said:
One hit aimed for Luffy, Marco and Jinbe also did this but what they did isn't comparable to what Shanks did.
Click to expand...
Ace still intercepted it, and Akainu is an Admiral with Observation ( that is probably advanced, actually, but I don't feel like looking for evidence ), he should have been able to see that coming,
 
SnookB said:
.... I mean there's virtually none since Oda probably didn't even think about that back then-
Click to expand...
I'd say he did think of Future Sight before due to this scene.
az76WkF.jpeg
 
For speed, I already explained above that while both of them have scaling to Marco (since Ace scales to Akainu who scales to Marco), King has scaling to Zoro who reacted to the attacks of Big Mom and Kaido, so King should scale above Ace in speed, especially if the flames come off.
 
SnookB said:
Ain't that just basic kenbunshoku? Future sight is like, seeing several seconds to a minute into the future while Kenbun's a quick flash like that one
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that's FS. It's a similar flash to the one he got when Bonney intercepted his clash with the Pacifista Cop, too.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
It's a similar flash
Click to expand...
We never see similiar flashes-
Usually future sight is called "seeing into the future" without a specified timeframe while kenbunshoku is seeing the immidiate future. Pretty sure that was regular kenbun. Not that it changes much regardless because assuming an extremely pissed off uncalm bloodlusted sakazuki used FS to foresee Ace jumping in the way is just-- weird. Because we don't know if he had it, and because he was everything but calm, which is what's necessary to use it right.

Irrelevant to this thread either way but who knows tbh
 
Kachon123 said:
You're assuming it's talking about heat. That's not confirmed nor outright stated.
Click to expand...
Same question as Eseseso tbh.
The only other comparaison would be it being molten rock, which the fire very clearly isn't. Oda draws extremely intense heat with darker spots just like Kaido's Kaen Daiko, and King's fire is exactly like that. It's pretty clear it's the temperature of it is above regular fire both visualized and from Zoro's dialogue.
 
unknown.png

I know I voted for Ace and kind of still think he might have a chance winning but I actually approve of King winning for some reason
I guess it's just because King seems to have more wincons and I can't really deny that this time.
 
Ryuga21 said:
Can't Ace just put out the flames on King's back by absorbing it? This would be a great counter to his durability, and I believe King's Speed Amp isn't that much of a problem, as Ace has already reacted to attacks from Whitebeard, the admirals, can also boost his own speed with fire and has far better precog.

Ace's flames are so hot that it even burned Whitebeard's skin, who has an absurd resistance to heat, I don't know if King could handle them. King's advantage would be at close range, as Ace doesn't master physical combat, but his feats, like keeping up with Yamato and Jinbe (two natural fighters at close range as well) don't allow me to assume he'd be stomped in that regard.

Area of effect is an absurd advantage for Ace whether with dragons, Hiken or Entei, things Ace can spam (remember the first Hiken Ace launched in the series, so vast it swallowed multiple ships easily). Frankly I think Ace wins but King is a better fighter I would say. Ace likely wins with high difficulty.
Click to expand...
Sorry but since I can't access your profile, could I ask here if you'd care to check out these 2 vs threads:


 
Eseseso said:
So who do you think wins?

Care for one of your excellent multi-paragraph analyses that you've made for other vs debates (like for Zoro vs Oden)?
Click to expand...
Eminiteable said:
King's stronger, faster and too durable for Ace to harm normally on top of the resistances to Ace's primary way of attacking in the first place.

King's flames may not work but he still can primarily fight with his sword/haki/zoan powers to win. So King probably wins.
Click to expand...
Absolutely wonderful analysis, Emin. I knew we could count on you :LOL:

King FRA
 
SnookB said:
Yeah no, King in his tanking mode being called invulnerable by Queen was almost no exaggeration. It took a Zoro who can injure schmega-durable Yonko an ACoC boost to even make him feel worried about taking a hit in that state.
Click to expand...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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