TimeTrapperFanBoy
He/Him- 193
- 181
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Your relentless opposition to upgrades with such overwhelming evidence behind them has become a tiresome cliche. It's warranted with the cosmology split, not so much with this.Really disappointing to see these characters at 2-C, personally. But it is what it is.
"Overwhelming evidence." Bruh. The vast vast majority of the feats in the original proposal were so obviously not evidence that they were immediately dismissed out of hand, and the small remainder of ones that had some potential for validity were incredibly vague, even the very "best" ones, to say nothing of the many anti-feats and logical errors such an interpretation creates for so many storylines.Your relentless opposition to upgrades with such overwhelming evidence behind them has become a tiresome cliche.
Except this is blatantly not true according to almost anyone's reading of the canon but yours. Even Ant's acquiesced that the feats are reliable now. Compared to everyone here who's worked so hard to finally get over VS Battles Wiki's reluctance to upgrade DC by preparing such explicit, unambiguous feats and tirelessly refuting non-point debunks and anti-feats that are easily explained away, you're being stubborn. The feats are clear, and almost all the anti-feats you've provided have been invalid. If you have new arguments, then go contest the thread, but relentlessly complaining about honest attempts to fix errors as a "culture of pursuing upgrades for upgrades sake" is bad form."Overwhelming evidence." Bruh. The vast vast majority of the feats in the original proposal were so obviously not evidence that they were immediately dismissed out of hand, and the small remainder of ones that had some potential for validity were incredibly vague, even the very "best" ones, to say nothing of the many anti-feats and logical errors such an interpretation creates for so many storylines.
The tiresome cliché here is the culture of pursuing upgrades for upgrades sake, in clear opposition to the actual portrayal of the characters. Maybe I'm the bad guy for being the fun police trying to stop the various upgrades people want to do, but I'd prefer the profiles to not be exaggerated to such an insane degree. I'm used to it in most verses, but DC is the verse I care about the most, so it's disappointing to see it fall to this state.
If you believe the feats have issues or our attempts to refute the anti-feats were invalid, go contest it and provide your arguments instead of complaining in the general discussion thread. I'm not even that involved in the upgrades in the first place, I'm not actually invested in what tiers the characters get, but I read what both sides have said on the matter, and you've done a decidedly poor job in attempting to refute 2-C thus far.Lawyer, I'm entirely unpersuaded by your aggravated ramblings and I'm well within my rights to express disappointment about the upgrades here without you getting publicly salty about it or inviting other people here for the express purpose of causing public drama. If you feel my stance on the matter is invalid or that I'm firmly in the minority, that's your business and I have no intention of attempting to persuade you otherwise. As far as I am concerned the issues with the feats were very clear, and the anti-feats were overwhelming.
Okay, sorry.Deagon, Lawyer, both of you take a chill-pill and please don't include us in your spats. Last thing I want is to get reported alongside all three of you.
Depending on how Ultima's tiering system overhaul goes, this might be gone soon too.DC fans need this, the fact that an angered Hulk would get barely tickled by a punch from The Presense, Archangels, Monitors etc. all at the same time will never not be heart wrenching
There is contractions regarding the Great Darkness between Tynion's Justice League Dark and Williamson's Justice League Incarnate. The Great Darkness in Tynion's story is described as residing in, or being, the dark Sphere of the Gods surrounding the Dark Multiverse, where the Upside-Down Man resides. The Great Darkness in Williamson's story is described as the vast black canvas where the Light of Creation or Overvoid or Presence emerged.
I had this theory to reconcile the two things for the Crisis Cosmology page: when the Light of Creation grew and everything was no longer nothing, the Great Darkness screamed and retreated into the Darkworld which was used interchangeably with the Great Darkness and the place where the Upside-Down Man resides, where it slumbered for an eternity until a piece of the darkness escaped and nearly destroyed Heaven until it made a truce with the Light. When the multiverse was recreated by the Hands, the Great Darkness once again became beyond the Omniverse and beings like the Upside-Down Man were after its powers.
Note that the Great Darkness itself has clarified that it was not the cause of any crisis, nor did it seek to destroy the Multiverse, contrary to what Doctor Multiverse believed.
What do you think?
The link to my draft page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Elizio33/Sandbox9
I understand, but it was said in Tynion's JLA Dark that it was a piece of the Great Darkness that broke free and almost destroyed Heaven that was seen as a sliver of Man's power, not the full Great Darkness. There is another story that said that when God said let there be light, the primordial darkness, a reference to the Great Darkness, retreated to Shadowlands/Abyss. The Abyss was implied to be the same thing as the Great Darkness.I think you're correct that there are contradictions there, although I lean towards thinking that the Williamson depiction takes primacy, because it takes and inverts the UDM-GEB relationship and is more recent, so it's a relatively direct retcon. Your theory is not bad, but it may be best not to put it directly in an official page for DC on the wiki because it is a theory. The Great Darkness has long been the opposite of the Presence, who is above the Sphere, so Tynion's take on the matter is a bit of an outlier in my opinion. I think Williamson did a good job taking everything and adjusting it to unity.
Me too@Deagonx I’m kinda interested to know on what tier you would place the Post Crisis and Rebirth Heralds.
Only staff can ping people.@Deagonx I’m kinda interested to know on what tier you would place the Post Crisis and Rebirth Heralds.
I think they usually cap out at planetary or star level. For instance, prior to the upgrade we had them all at Solar System level due to a single statement about Alan Scott having a power source that could wipe out the solar system. I didn't think this was a good basis, as it was just the lone statement and it's questionable whether Alan's individual fighting prowess scales directly to the explosive energy within him, or if the statement was even accurate. I thought it was a pretty good example of an outlier, but we had 30+ profiles all chain-scaling to that one single statement.I’m kinda interested to know on what tier you would place the Post Crisis and Rebirth Heralds.
This makes sense to me. So what should we do regarding our cosmology scaling page?I think you're correct that there are contradictions there, although I lean towards thinking that the Williamson depiction takes primacy, because it takes and inverts the UDM-GEB relationship and is more recent, so it's a relatively direct retcon. Your theory is not bad, but it may be best not to put it directly in an official page for DC on the wiki because it is a theory. The Great Darkness has long been the opposite of the Presence, who is above the Sphere, so Tynion's take on the matter is a bit of an outlier in my opinion. I think Williamson did a good job taking everything and adjusting it to unity.
Usually we only list the prominent things in cases like this. We wouldn't need to add, like, cloth manipulation or something to him.Technically speaking, The Presence should have every power and ability in DC, within reason. Being that he's the source of all things and exist within everyone and everything. Isn't that what's required to have every power and ability in the verse for Creator level characters? At least, DeMatteis version was rather explicit on that point in his stories.
It'd be great if you made a CRT to that effect.To be honest, looking at the Presence page is a bit jarring. He's still being treated as composite and uses scans from everything, but the cosmology is split. There's even a Lucifer 2018 scan being used, and Sandman Universe isn't even accepted as apart of Vertigo Cosmology, bizarrely enough. Void Manipulation is repeated twice using the very same scan I mentioned from Lucifer. It's also missing several powers and abilities. At least, from what I can tell at a glance. Like Lucifer has Nonduality and Avatar Creation but the Presence doesn't?
can't we add something like, "has the powers and abilities of lucifer, michael etc"?Usually we only list the prominent things in cases like this. We wouldn't need to add, like, cloth manipulation or something to him.
i have seen a lot of profiles that do thatI haven't seen that on a profile before so I'm not sure if we can do something like that.
Its always has been accepted to split them thoWe should revert back to the two split profiles for the Presence: Yahweh and Divine Presence..
But the profile looks either merged or the separate keys were removed.Its always has been accepted to split them tho
I agree with this, but I would suggest a whole separate page entirely for the Divine Presence vs a key on the main one. There's enough difference between the DeMatteis version to warrant it. Especially since his version dates all the way back to the 80s (I, Vampire) and runs all the way to 2015. Either way, I think it's a good idea to separate the 3 versions to be consistent with the fact that the cosmology is split and they're not the same.We should revert back to the two split profiles for the Presence: Yahweh and Divine Presence.
Despite them both being the “Presence” there clearly are differences. If Sandman: Overture statement that the Void is simply in the mind of God then the argument can be made, that they both are but other than that they are different.
We can still connect some ideas but you're not wrong that there are enough ideas to separate the two entiertly.I agree with this, but I would suggest a whole separate page entirely for the Divine Presence vs a key on the main one. There's enough difference between the DeMatteis version to warrant it. Especially since his version dates all the way back to the 80s (I, Vampire) and runs all the way to 2015. Either way, I think it's a good idea to separate the 3 versions to be consistent with the fact that the cosmology is split and they're not the same.
This seems the most logical.How about this?
- Merge Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Presence, and the Source into one page for the Light from the crisis cosmology.
- Make two separate profiles for DeMattis's DP and Vertigo's Presence.
This seems logicalHow about this?
- Merge Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Presence, and the Source into one page for the Light from the crisis cosmology.
- Make two separate profiles for DeMattis's DP and Vertigo's Presence.
Do it, then.This seems logical
Please handle the Elaine issue.Do it, then.
First of all, I still need help with grammar and spelling for the Crisis Cosmology draft page so we can apply it in our official DC Cosmology page.Do it, then.
Done.Please handle the Elaine issue.
This seems fine to me as well.How about this?
- Merge Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Presence, and the Source into one page for the Light from the crisis cosmology.
- Make two separate profiles for DeMattis's DP and Vertigo's Presence.